First off i really do like the class. It definitely feels different than a sorcerer or a wizard. If anything it feels slightly bard like: a large and diverse pool of powers to draw from but no one outstanding uber power. (that may change when the bombs can be used more than once per round though)
It's a LOT to keep track of...
I made a separate sheet to keep track of all the abilities. You have bombs, the bomb special abilities that go together, the bomb special abilities that don't go together, poisons,alchemical items, your mutagen, your extracts,and thanks to alchemical allocation (a spell that lets you reuse potions) any potion you're carrying is effectively a spell for you to cast with a 2 round casting time.
With infusion (something your party should hit you over the head if you don't get) you should also help your party keep track of who was given what infusion that morning.
-With the ability to make an extract in a minute, you're not quite a spontaneous spell caster, but keeping an open potion slot means not having to "memorize" situational spells like comprehend languages.
-I love the ability to cast spells on party members that normally the wizard can only keep for themselves. Case in point, the party had to rescue some human sacrifices from a camp of gnolls. The alchemist blew all of his extracts and gave the party Disguise self and alter self infusions to sneak into the camp. Shield, true strike, and expeditious retreat infusions give the fighter types options they could never hope for, and the enlarge person infusion gets them bigger faster.
-as to the buffing its a bit of a mixed bag. I like that i can use my actions to blast while the party can use their own actions to buff themselves and get the buff they think they need when they need it.But i think part of the philosophy of a buff heavy character is that their action is more important than yours... perhaps in the future there will be a discovery that allows someone to pour an infusion over another characters head like an oil instead of requiring that they drink it.
-I think the downside is spells like haste, which would normally take 1 party action to haste everyone now requires 4 party actions
Unless... you take UMD and cast the thing from a scroll ;)
Good info. I really like the Alchemist and want it to be viable. I have some questions that maybe you can speak to:
Do you feel that the non-magic aspects of the class are worth it? The skill selection, d8 hd, two strong saves, 3/4 BAB, light armor prof, poison use, etc, compensate for the lack of high level spells?
Do you feel that the Alchemist is competitive with the Bard, to the point that they are more or less interchangeable in a party line-up?
Do you reap benefits from the Brew Potion feat and alchemy / poison creation aspect of the class?
Do you feel like you will take Alchemist all the way to 20, or are you eyeballing some multi-class options to branch out into other areas?
Are you competitive with other spell-casty PC's in the party (if any), or are you lagging behind and becoming irrelevant?
Do you have enough bombs to get through a full adventuring day, or do you run dry too soon?
I'm currently playing an Alchemist in the Serpent's Skull AP and, while we are only 2nd level, I believe that I can speak to some of these points.
1. Non-magical aspects - with bombs only have a 20-ft. range increment and other alchemicals having only a 10-ft. range increment, I've had to move my character closer to harm's way than I might have otherwise hoped. However, the d8 hit die has made this relatively feasable; I can take a solid hit or two and not worry about imediately going into negative hit points.
Light armor proficiency has largely been a wash. My character is wearing studded leather and either the DM is rolling particulary well or the creatures have a high enough BAB to chew through his AC with relative ease. Down the road, I can see this being more of a benefit with magical armor, special materials, and so forth.
I just picked up poison use at second level and am planning on taking full advantage of it. My character has used a light cross to good effect when it wasn't really worth throwing a bomb and I'm looking forward to adding poison to that mix.
Our party's ranger who focuses on a longbow (I think, or it may be a shortbow) is also looking forward to having my alchemist craft augmented arrows for her (there's a number in the Elves of Golarion, or something similar) as well as poisoning her arrows.
2. Bards - while it has been a very long time since I've played a bard, my experience with them has largely been relegated to augmenting the other memebers of the party. I feel that the alchemist fills an entirely different niche so It's hard for me to directly compare the two classes.
3. Brew Potion - as the party is relatively low level, I have a single Cure Light Wounds potion that my character created that may come in handy. However, I am focusing on bombs and am finding out that the discovery class feature is particularly precious. I'm thinking that as we progress, brewing potions will allow me to put off taking the discovery that allows others to use your extracts (I believe it is infusion or something similar, but don't have my book handy.)
4. Prestige Classes/Multi-Classing - having taken a look at the available prestige classes and having contemplated multi-classing, I am currently confident that I'm going to keep my character a straight-up alchemist for as long as the campaign runs. More discoveries, more bomb damage, more bombs, and so forth trump any other abilities my character might pick up with another class, however, that's probably dependent upon my specific build and my character concept.
5. Other spellcasters - we have a witch in the party as well as various NPC casters built into the AP and my alchemist has been effective and even decisive in a number of encounters. I'm not sure how my character might stack up versus a wizard or cleric, but again I think that the alchemist is filling a specific niche and a direct comparison is difficult.
6. Bombs Per Day - despite having 4 - 5 encounters per day so far, I have yet to run out of bombs. However, I am judicious on their use and don't lob them out there for the fun of it. When combat is winding down to the "mopping up" stage, I'm quick to switch to the light crossbow to conserve resources.
This may become more problematic at higher levels when bomb damage greatly outpaces what I can dish out with the crossbow, but for now, at least, it's not an issue. I can also see how, after I gain iterative attacks and pick up the Fast Bomb discovery, they could run out much more quickly. For that reason, I have every intention of picking up the Extra Bombs feat at least once to help out with the drain.
In summary, I was initially curious as to how effective the alchemist would be in a traditional party, but so far he's exceeded my expectations. Planning for down the road, I am thinking that the Extra Discovery Feat and Extra Bombs feat will be essential.
If you are focusing on bombs, I would also highly recommend the Precise Bombs discovery at second level; I've unfortunately fragged a number of party members in melee with a target and even reduced one of those to unconsiousness. Luckily, my party has been understanding, but the ability to exclude squares from the blast radius is essential.
Also speaking to bombs, Precise Shot is golden. As a bomb is simply a touch attack, I, incorrectly, assumed that the feat wouldn't be as essential. However, taking a -4 penalty to the attack simply "sucks" for lack of a better word. I'll be grabbing it as soon as we level to 3.
As a final thought, Intelligence is your friend, increase it however you possibly can.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
I'm also playing an alchemist in Serpent's Skull and we have recently leveled up to 4th. I'd say the following are worth thinking about:
1. Running out of bombs isn't a problem IF you're doing an exploring-type game. In any kind of a dungeon situation or mass combat situation with multiple encounters, though, you run out of them really fast.
I'm actually not sure if I would pick up Fast Bombs as a discovery, if only because the temptation would be too great to just keep throwing and throwing and you'd be out of ammo in a flash. I'll think about it, though, as being able to combo it with haste is pretty sweet.
2. Following #1 above, think about your secondary schtick for when the bombs aren't falling. I'm considering taking the "add INT to damage with a bow/crossbow" feat as a backup to have when I'm outta bombs, but I'm not completely sold. Still, having something to fall back on when enemies are immune to your bomb damage or you run out is important.
3. Precision is important. PB shot will be "on" almost all the time you are attacking with bombs, use it. Precise Shot avoids a hefty attack roll penalty both with your bombs and with anything else you throw. Precise Bombs helps your party mates not get pissed at you for "friendly fire." True, it's not big damage, but it adds up.
4. If you have time to work, Brew Potion can make the "infusion" discovery superfluous. True, stuff costs money, but they're pretty cheap when you're making 1st level potions of things like shield and true strike (or even CLW). However, you are essentially trading money for spell slots, and you don't have all that many of those.
Infusion is handy, but you can get away with being a "selfish" alchemist if you make use of your brew potion feat,
5. Diversify your attacks. Yeah, bombs for fire damage are neat, but pick an alternate. I took frost bombs, and the 1-round "staggered" effect was very handy indeed in the last session, preventing a multi-attack-per-round enemy from being able to wipe out an ally, or even from being able to pick up their unconscious body and fly away, or from double-moving to escape.
I think good advice is frost bomb (targets Fort save) and force bomb (targets Ref save, and also hits incorporeals) is probably plenty. The acid bomb (extra damage) and shock bomb (dazzled) special effects weren't exciting me, but to each their own.
I had planned on taking the Explosive Bomb discovery, but it's mostly nice because it catches your prime target on fire (1d6 dmg per round); the larger AoE isn't that impressive, given that it's just the single-digit splash damage.
More to the point, work on picking up some alternate effects - yes, different damage types are nice, but things like smoke/poison/stink bomb are also quite handy. I might even drop my 5th level feat on Extra Discovery to pick up smoke bomb at 5th, so I can get stink bomb at 6th.
To put it all together: I think having more DIFFERENT kinds of bombs available to you is more important than having MORE bombs to throw at a time (i.e., Fast Bombs, Extra Bombs). Both would be great, but I think variety trumps repetition.
6. Don't forget your mutagen. Stack it with Enlarge/Reduce Person and Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace if you want to max your STR or DEX (depending on which route you take). It's a pretty juicy bonus. In at least one combat, out of bombs, I basically beefed my AC up into the mid-20s and ran around the battlefield drawing fire from the opponents to help out the other folks in the party.
7. I've contemplated multiclassing into rogue, fighter, or ranger, or going with the Master Chymist to really play up that secondary schtick, but I think I'm going to stick with alchemist all the way.
8. I haven't had much luck with poisons so far; I have harvested some from creatures we've fought, but none of my uses of poison in combat have amounted to anything interesting or particularly useful yet.
1. Running out of bombs isn't a problem IF you're doing an exploring-type game. In any kind of a dungeon situation or mass combat situation with multiple encounters, though, you run out of them really fast.I'm actually not sure if I would pick up Fast Bombs as a discovery, if only because the temptation would be too great to just keep throwing and throwing and you'd be out of ammo in a flash. I'll think about it, though, as being able to combo it with haste is pretty sweet.
Not picking up Fast Bombs is actually not a bad idea to avoid running dry. When starting to build my alchemist, I looked at some of the builds centered around Two-Weapon Fighting, Fast Bombs, and other ideas and I can easily see the character running out of what is arguably their most potent weapon in a single encounter, even at higher levels.
Also, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that you really do need a feasable back-up weapon. At 1st, 2nd level, a light crossbow has been working fine for my character, but I can see where the 1d8 points of damage will quickly fall behind the curve when it comes to the amount of hurt you need to inflict in a round. I'm with you on the INT damage feat, but I want to say that it has some prerequisites that I wasn't ready to dive into and decided that it might not be worth it in a cost/benefit situation.
If you have time to work, Brew Potion can make the "infusion" discovery superfluous. True, stuff costs money, but they're pretty cheap when you're making 1st level potions of things like shield and true strike (or even CLW). However, you are essentially trading money for spell slots, and you don't have all that many of those.
This is also a good idea. In all honesty, my character has not really used his extracts all that much (other than a daily Endure Elements) and I thought the infusion discovery might be a good way to get better use out of them. However, you're right in that there are a lot of good 1st level Alchemist formulas that can be crafted into potions relatively cheaply and easily. Keeps the party happy without sacrificing a precious discovery.
Oooooh! So party action economical :)
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Unless... you take UMD and cast the thing from a scroll ;)Or don't take UMD and use a wand...
Has it been clarified that this is, in fact, legal? Since alchemists don't actually cast spells and therefore don't have a spell list, can they use spell trigger items? I was pretty sure they couldn't.
|
Has it been clarified that this is, in fact, legal? Since alchemists don't actually cast spells and therefore don't have a spell list, can they use spell trigger items? I was pretty sure they couldn't.Unless... you take UMD and cast the thing from a scroll ;)Or don't take UMD and use a wand...
Although the alchemist doesn’t actually cast spells, he
does have a formulae list that determines what extracts
he can create (see page 32). An alchemist can utilize
spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formuale
list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use
Magic Device to do so).
Straight from the book.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Has it been clarified that this is, in fact, legal? Since alchemists don't actually cast spells and therefore don't have a spell list, can they use spell trigger items? I was pretty sure they couldn't.Unless... you take UMD and cast the thing from a scroll ;)Or don't take UMD and use a wand...Straight from the book.Although the alchemist doesn’t actually cast spells, he
does have a formulae list that determines what extracts
he can create (see page 32). An alchemist can utilize
spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formuale
list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use
Magic Device to do so).
Sweet. Maybe it was different in the playtest version, maybe it was the same, whatev; I probably just missed it. Thanks for noticing that.
If we ever get off of this blasted rock, wand shop here I come!
Do you feel that the non-magic aspects of the class are worth it? The skill selection
I think about half of my skills are out of class. I haven't invested in UMD yet because my charisma is a dump stat
d8 hd, two strong saves, 3/4 BAB, light armor prof,
The d8 hd is nice. The 3/4 bab is almost necessary to hit consistently with the bombs. 2 strong saves is ok, but reflex is my least favorite save... if you fail you take damage, big whoop, heal up after. Fort is nice, but the poor will save is a little rough: especially around level 8 where you can obliterate your party if you get charmed.
Light armor is meh. I could just as easily be wearing mage armor. ALthough, if you turn on a mutagen for dex, snag the +2 natural armor, and then pop a cats grace your armor can enter the stratosphere very quickly
poison use
So far seems too expensive to be worth it. The con poisons are extremely pricey, and the strength poisons work off of fort saves: if you need to lower their str. they probably have a good fort save.
etc, compensate for the lack of high level spells?
Nothing will ever make up for not having 9th level spells at 18th level. however being a little behind at the levels more common for play seems to work fine.
Do you feel that the Alchemist is competitive with the Bard, to the point that they are more or less interchangeable in a party line-up?
I think they work a lot better than a bard. The benefit for having class skills dropped dramatically between 3.5 and pathfinder. at 10th level there's not much difference between 10 ranks and 10+3 to a skill because its trained, so the bards superior skills don't help much. Bard songs tend to boost the effectiveness of the party fighters.. which if you have a bard in the party is 1 or 2 of them. Alchemists can tailor the buffs to everyone.
Alchemists are better at healing, better at blasting, and can easily be better at buffing. As long as you have someone for a party face (unnecessary in many campaigns) you're good to go.
Do you reap benefits from the Brew Potion feat and alchemy / poison creation aspect of the class?
EVERYONE should check the fine print on the alchemists brew potion.
1) They can only make potions for formulas they know (unlike most readings of the potion brewing rules which is "add 5 to the dc and brew whatever you want)
An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat.
2) They cannot brew potions that are not potion legal. They can make infusions that bend the rules, but for potions they're stuck just like everyone else.
Do you feel like you will take Alchemist all the way to 20, or are you eyeballing some multi-class options to branch out into other areas?
there is a master chymist prestige class that focuses on the alchemists mutagen. Outside of that no prestige class or multiclass option stacks well with the alchemist.
Are you competitive with other spell-casty PC's in the party (if any), or are you lagging behind and becoming irrelevant?
At level 5 still doing well vs a cleric in terms of raw power. The damage output with the bombs is pretty comperable to a blasty wizard, if not quite the sudden death threat of a Save or die caster. Setting people on fire in the middle of a fight is pretty nasty.. a d6 per round adds up when you dont have time to douse yourself.
Do you have enough bombs to get through a full adventuring day, or do you run dry too soon?
At level 5 its going fine. At level 8 when you can pick up fast bombs and use rapid shot its probably not going to last long.
You are almost required to pick up point blank and precise shot. You do NOT want a -4 to attack.
I chose elf, for the bow as a backup weapon , the dex bonus, and the theme of a hippie recreational user of his own products. rapid shot is probably worth it even for the build up encounters for the bow, and then during the fight break out 3 bombs per round ( 12d6 damage+ setting on fire, dazing, and whatever else your bombs can do.
I think what i like most is the ability to strike at an enemy with their weakness no matter what it is. A quiver full of arrows for every DR, a few different types of bombs, and the right infusion for any situation lets you pull exactly what you need out of you know where on a moments notice to save the day.
RE:
I think what i like most is the ability to strike at an enemy with their weakness no matter what it is. A quiver full of arrows for every DR, a few different types of bombs, and the right infusion for any situation lets you pull exactly what you need out of you know where on a moments notice to save the day.
Am I missing something? What Alchemist ability would allow you to make Arrows for every DR?
The APG has weapon blanches (which work like silversheen, but for 1 hit) which are creatable with the alchemy skill. There's a cold iron, adamantite, and silver version. Technically anyone can buy them, but an alchemist can mass produce them.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
I'm also playing an alchemist in Serpent's Skull and we have recently leveled up to 4th. I'd say the following are worth thinking about:
4. If you have time to work, Brew Potion can make the "infusion" discovery superfluous. True, stuff costs money, but they're pretty cheap when you're making 1st level potions of things like shield and true strike (or even CLW). However, you are essentially trading money for spell slots, and you don't have all that many of those.
Not to nitpick but I don't believe 'shield' or 'true strike' can be made into potions as these spells have a range of 'personal' and a target of 'you', same for 'false life'. According to the PF Core Rulebook, pg 477, only spells which have as a target one or more creatures may be made into potions.
DJF
It's all true. You do need infusions for that. Teaches me to post when I'm at work... :)
Since our party doesn't have a cleric (we do have an inquisitor and paladin, but neither is a super-healer at this point), I've mostly been making CLW potions thus far, and since we've been trapped on an island there hasn't been much of a chance to diversify.
The infusion discovery is certainly the way to go if you want to bend the potion rules (or share spells over 3rd level in any case). That's one of the interesting parts of the alchemist class - that you can focus in a lot of different directions.
As an aside, I also went with elf and high dex, though because of the nature of the module I'm 4th level and still don't actually HAVE a bow. One of these days we'll get back to civilization... :)
I'm also playing an alchemist in Serpent's Skull and we have recently leveled up to 4th. I'd say the following are worth thinking about:
4. If you have time to work, Brew Potion can make the "infusion" discovery superfluous. True, stuff costs money, but they're pretty cheap when you're making 1st level potions of things like shield and true strike (or even CLW). However, you are essentially trading money for spell slots, and you don't have all that many of those.
Not to nitpick but I don't believe 'shield' or 'true strike' can be made into potions as these spells have a range of 'personal' and a target of 'you', same for 'false life'. According to the PF Core Rulebook, pg 477, only spells which have as a target one or more creatures may be made into potions.
DJF
Well that Sucks, I guess my rogue snipers I used against my party which had potions of True Strike wouldn't have been possible. They party was wonder how these long ranged poisoned crossbows where hitting them with such accuracy. When the took out one of the snipers a single potion of True Strike was left. I suppose I could make it an Elixir of True Strike as Wondrous Item instead. Not that my players noticed anyways.
I'm also playing an alchemist in Serpent's Skull and we have recently leveled up to 4th. I'd say the following are worth thinking about:
4. If you have time to work, Brew Potion can make the "infusion" discovery superfluous. True, stuff costs money, but they're pretty cheap when you're making 1st level potions of things like shield and true strike (or even CLW). However, you are essentially trading money for spell slots, and you don't have all that many of those.
Not to nitpick but I don't believe 'shield' or 'true strike' can be made into potions as these spells have a range of 'personal' and a target of 'you', same for 'false life'. According to the PF Core Rulebook, pg 477, only spells which have as a target one or more creatures may be made into potions.
DJF
It's all true. You do need infusions for that. Teaches me to post when I'm at work... :)
Since our party doesn't have a cleric (we do have an inquisitor and paladin, but neither is a super-healer at this point), I've mostly been making CLW potions thus far, and since we've been trapped on an island there hasn't been much of a chance to diversify.
The infusion discovery is certainly the way to go if you want to bend the potion rules (or share spells over 3rd level in any case). That's one of the interesting parts of the alchemist class - that you can focus in a lot of different directions.
As an aside, I also went with elf and high dex, though because of the nature of the module I'm 4th level and still don't actually HAVE a bow. One of these days we'll get back to civilization... :)
I'm playing a high-dex elf Alchemist as well. I've taken to throwing Longswords for the moment with Throw Anything when I run out of other things to do, since bows are so expensive and I rolled a small Strength bonus, sp the swords actually do slightly better damage.
The Alchemist class has proven to be vastly powerful at low levels. High Dex + Dex Mutagen + (Mithral) Chain Shirt (and nowadays Wand of Mage Armour) + Shield Extract == I am the party tank. I think I had 26 AC at level 1.
Our party is just me, a Druid, and a Barbarian/Rogue/Alchemist1 with 10 Int (so she can't use extracts), and we've been blazing through Curse of the Crimson Throne--the GM skipped a bunch of stuff and we wound up in the final dungeon of part 2 at level 5 (two levels underleveled with only 3 PCs) and we somehow survived (one boss was twinked as an Alchemist by another member of this forum in the 3.5->PF conversion, and we actually had to lock him in the room where he was encountered and wait for his buffs to expire or we all would have died horribly, but we managed to win).
Just like you, I have been helping with spare healing, though we do have Goodberries to augment that. To be fair, the only reason we have a chance is that we do a small number of minute/level runs with buffs up, so we do have a 15 minute adventuring day, but we clear whole dungeons in that time by moving fast, so it leads to a breakneck pace. This is strongly encouraged by the Alchemist class, which some might consider a bad thing, but it has allowed our little team of three to do very well.
So my general analysis is that Alchemist is very strong at low levels--for those comparing to Bard, my Alchemist was clearly more useful than a Bard would have been at the lower levels. Once the Bard gets Inspire Courage +2, it's more competitive, but Alchemical Allocation gives a good variety of 3rd-level spells that are available with potion purchase. The Bard probably overtakes once Inspire Courage is at +3, and I've heard Alchemists dry up a bit at higher levels, but my firsthand experience is only to level 5 (and my Alchemist just leveled to 6 off the crazy experience for surviving the dungeon he was in).
Our party is just me, a Druid, and a Barbarian/Rogue/Alchemist1 with 10 Int (so she can't use extracts)
... I think that alchemist is using too much of his own product.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
You actually throw longswords as a matter of course, like funny shaped javelins? Why longswords specifically? Why not spears or something designed to be thrown? How many can you carry around without being encumbered to a crawl?
Probably because they do 1d8/19-20, and you get to add STR bonus to it (if you have one; my alc has STR 12) - so compare a +1 STR comp longbow costing around 200 and you could afford 10 longswords for that.
True, your throwing range stinks, but if you have PBS/Precise Shot it's often pretty easy to just step back 5' and chuck a sword, still being within the 10' range increment.
I've thrown my rapier a number of times, and in one battle I was actually throwing my sling stones rather than slinging them just to save actions in combat (don't need to load the sling).
Of course, a bow or sling is handy to have if you want to attack at range.
I believe my alc has studded leather, 16 Dex, and a +1 buckler for a base AC of 18 (yes, I know I'm not proficient with the buckler, but its ACP is 0 since it's magical, so there's no penalty to using it).
Mutagen for +4 Dex and +2 natural armor is +4 and a Shield extract puts AC 26. Add reduce person for +2 Dex and +1 size and I'm AC 28.
Reduce Person is actually a very nice buff for a Dex alc, both because bombs don't care what size they are, and because ranged weapons have been errata'ed to return to their normal size once they leave your possession, so no hit to damage dice. Yes, -1 Str, but you get a lot out of it.
|
|
Probably because they do 1d8/19-20, and you get to add STR bonus to it (if you have one; my alc has STR 12) - so compare a +1 STR comp longbow costing around 200 and you could afford 10 longswords for that.
True, your throwing range stinks, but if you have PBS/Precise Shot it's often pretty easy to just step back 5' and chuck a sword, still being within the 10' range increment.
I've thrown my rapier a number of times, and in one battle I was actually throwing my sling stones rather than slinging them just to save actions in combat (don't need to load the sling).
Except that they don't have crit range of 19-20...
Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to
be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such
objects are not designed for this use, any creature that
uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be
nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls
made with that object. To determine the size category and
appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare
its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to
find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a
threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on
a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range
increment of 10 feet.
You aren't using a longsword/rapier as a ranged weapon, you're throwing an unwieldy sharp metal object. When you throw them, they're improvised weapons, it doesn't make them just able to use them by throwing.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Probably because they do 1d8/19-20, and you get to add STR bonus to it (if you have one; my alc has STR 12) - so compare a +1 STR comp longbow costing around 200 and you could afford 10 longswords for that.
True, your throwing range stinks, but if you have PBS/Precise Shot it's often pretty easy to just step back 5' and chuck a sword, still being within the 10' range increment.
I've thrown my rapier a number of times, and in one battle I was actually throwing my sling stones rather than slinging them just to save actions in combat (don't need to load the sling).
Except that they don't have crit range of 19-20...
You aren't using a longsword/rapier as a ranged weapon, you're throwing an unwieldy sharp metal object. When you throw them, they're improvised weapons, it doesn't make them just able to use them by throwing.Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to
be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such
objects are not designed for this use, any creature that
uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be
nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls
made with that object. To determine the size category and
appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare
its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to
find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a
threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on
a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range
increment of 10 feet.
The irony here is that I quoted that exact rule to somebody in some kind of message board argument about 2 or 3 months ago. Not. Enough. Space. In. Head.
So throwing your sword isn't a great idea. Not a terrible idea, but not great either.
OTOH, it's amusing that throwing my weightless leather sling would, by RAW, inflict 1d4 points of damage an improvised weapon, but throwing a half-pound lead shot would inflict none. If I were behind the screen, I think I'd probably allow shot-throwing (range of 10 vs. range of 50 is penalty enough for the marginal benefit of throwing the improvised weapon).
Arrows and bolts, though, I'd agree that allowing them full damage as thrown objects makes as little sense as having the thrown bow/crossbow do the same amount. Still, either should do something; it IS Throw ANYTHING!
Interesting observations everyone. Thanks.
Huh. I just noticed that throw anything is an effective +1 bonus with thrown bombs.
That would have come in VERY handy last week..
You are aware that your chain shirt and mage armor don't stack, yes?
The Alchemist class has proven to be vastly powerful at low levels. High Dex + Dex Mutagen + (Mithral) Chain Shirt (and nowadays Wand of Mage Armour) + Shield Extract == I am the party tank. I think I had 26 AC at level 1.
Yes--nowadays my Dex outpaces the max Dex on Mithral Chain Shirt, so we've opted for a Wand of Mage Armour. The badger animal companion follows suit.
@Jason--yep, Reduce put me up to 28 back then too. I think I have more now from a Ring of Protection we found and from casting Barkskin (stacks with mutagen--woot!).
... I think that alchemist is using too much of his own product.
My alchemist taught her how to be one too. The main benefit is Mutagen. Strength Mutagen pushes her Strength to like 31 (starting with an 18 after racial mods).
On that note...to make full use of their Throwing eliteness, what else could an Alchemist chuck down range for fame and fortune?
Lets compile a list...I'll start it off with the really obvious:
*Bombs
*Tanglefoot bags
*Holy Water
*Oil
*Acid Flasks
*Improvised Weapons
*Torches
*???
Grappling hooks work really well as an improvised weapon. Throw it, and pull it back.
Biggest problem though is you are never going to magical improvised weapons.
I've been really excited about playing artificer.. My design is to make him like a spec ops, where he throws in gernades and smoke bombs into the room then flushes it out with a repeating crossbow..
EVERYONE should check the fine print on the alchemists brew potion.
1) They can only make potions for formulas they know (unlike most readings of the potion brewing rules which is "add 5 to the dc and brew whatever you want)
An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat.
This is incorrect.
Brew Potion (Item Creation)
You can create magic potions.
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures.
No where in brew potion does it mention the +5 to craft unknown spells rule as well. It is hidden within the bowels of the actual crafting rules. Both a wizard and an alchemist can craft a potion of a druid spell with a +5 to the DC.
I'm playing Alchemist in our Kingmaker campaign. I took a slightly different route by making a melee alchemist. Well, barbarian/alchemist actually. Barbarian's rage stacks nicely with mutagen and enlarge person, and few levels later Bull's strenght. Mutagen's natural armor and shield-extract helps a lot with AC problems. I think my maximum damage at second level is 3d6+13. I'm also planning to take feral mutagen discovery to get three attacks at level three. It's a very strong combination at low levels, but haven't done any calculations to see how it will work on higher levels.
So my general analysis is that Alchemist is very strong at low levels--for those comparing to Bard, my Alchemist was clearly more useful than a Bard would have been at the lower levels.
My experience is pretty much the same, even down to the sword-throwing elf part. (For the record, I had run out of javelins.) :-)
There's not really much similarity between an alchemist and a bard, in my opinion. The alchemist is pretty much a straight lightly-armored damage dealer. The best comparison would be the 3.5 warlock. Failing that, maybe a rogue.
EVERYONE should check the fine print on the alchemists brew potion.
1) They can only make potions for formulas they know (unlike most readings of the potion brewing rules which is "add 5 to the dc and brew whatever you want)
An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat.
This is incorrect.
THAT is copied word for word from the Alchemists class ability and is quite correct. Other casters can evade the potion restrictions. Alchemists cannot because the class ability flat out says they can't.
Yes, the witch actually makes a better potion brewer than the alchemist.
So my general analysis is that Alchemist is very strong at low levels--for those comparing to Bard, my Alchemist was clearly more useful than a Bard would have been at the lower levels.My experience is pretty much the same, even down to the sword-throwing elf part. (For the record, I had run out of javelins.) :-)
There's not really much similarity between an alchemist and a bard, in my opinion. The alchemist is pretty much a straight lightly-armored damage dealer. The best comparison would be the 3.5 warlock. Failing that, maybe a rogue.
The similarity is in
1) the buffing, which you have to blow a discovery on but is very, very worth it.
2) The versatility. The alchemist can blast with bombs (sorcerish), Heal with extracts (clericy), buff himself with mutagen and shoot with a bow (fightery),increase the effectiveness of the party (bard) and use invisibility and alter self to scout and sneak around (rougey). It's the jack of all trades master of none that makes me think its like the bard.
|
Yes, the witch actually makes a better potion brewer than the alchemist.
Which, to my mind, is completely correct.
She cackles round her cauldron brewing potions and that's the only thing she really does with weird ingredients.
The alchemist, on the other hand, makes bombs, mutagens, infusions, philosopher's stones...
Yes, the witch actually makes a better potion brewer than the alchemist.Which, to my mind, is completely correct.
She cackles round her cauldron brewing potions and that's the only thing she really does with weird ingredients.
The alchemist, on the other hand, makes bombs, mutagens, infusions, philosopher's stones...
and transmutation circles, homunculus.. wait. why don't they get to make homunculi? Its kinda of a staple of alchemists even before things like FMA.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
EVERYONE should check the fine print on the alchemists brew potion.
1) They can only make potions for formulas they know (unlike most readings of the potion brewing rules which is "add 5 to the dc and brew whatever you want)
An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat.
THAT is copied word for word from the Alchemists class ability and is quite correct. Other casters can evade the potion restrictions. Alchemists cannot because the class ability flat out says they can't.
Yes, the witch actually makes a better potion brewer than the alchemist.
I read it differently. The full text from the APG is as follows:
Brew Potion (Ex): At 1st level, alchemists receive Brew Potion as a bonus feat. An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat.
Alchemist get the Brew Potion feat. The text mentioning formulae is reminder that an Alchemist (an non-spellcaster) uses his formulae for the feat. In all other ways the Brew Potion feat functions normally (including making potions of spells from other list).
Just as a matter of interest which Races are you guys playing?
I'm finding it hard to not pick Human for the extra Feat because there are just so many Discoveries that I want as well as PBS and PS.
[Edit] Also some sort of official clarification on the Brew pot thing would be nice.
|
|
Just as a matter of interest which Races are you guys playing?
I'm finding it hard to not pick Human for the extra Feat because there are just so many Discoveries that I want as well as PBS and PS.
I went with half-orc. The +1/2 lvls bomb damage for favored class was very nice, not to mention the +2 ability bump which of course went to INT, and while I haven't used it yet, ferocity will be nice to have when I drop to negatives.
I like playing the str/con mutagens as bringing out my orcish ancestry, I think dex mutagen will bring out more of my human ancestry, but I haven't decided yet. originally though about bringing out elven features, (pretty sure paizo didn't go with the whole orcs were made from elves myth, but thought it would be an interesting character twist)
Alchemist get the Brew Potion feat. The text mentioning formulae is reminder that an Alchemist (an non-spellcaster) uses his formulae for the feat. In all other ways the Brew Potion feat functions normally (including making potions of spells from other list).
There is NO reason for "An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level" unless it means exactly what it says: You can make potions for formulas you know. The next sentence puts the kybosh on making potions of true strike.
|
|
Just as a matter of interest which Races are you guys playing?
I'm finding it hard to not pick Human for the extra Feat because there are just so many Discoveries that I want as well as PBS and PS.
[Edit] Also some sort of official clarification on the Brew pot thing would be nice.
Main choices appear to be:
Human = extra featElf = dex and int boost
Half-orc = extra bomb damage
None are really bad though. Just go with whatever takes your fancy.
|
|
There is NO reason for "An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level" unless it means exactly what it says: You can make potions for formulas you know. The next sentence puts the kybosh on making potions of true strike.
Yes there is a reason to have that. You're getting a bonus feat that specifies spells, but as we all know, alchemists don't have spells, they have formulae, so the rules are saying you can use your formulae that you know instead of spells for making potions. The feat brew potion says the same thing (subbing spells for formulae) but the item creation rules say that you can use spells that you don't know it just increases the dc +5.
If they didn't have the line about using formulae that you know, then every potion the alchemist made would have the +5 dc since he doesn't have spells to use with brew potion.
|
|
Main choices appear to be:
Human = extra feat
Elf = dex and int boost
Half-orc = extra bomb damageNone are really bad though. Just go with whatever takes your fancy.
Don't forget gnomes for the extra bombs (1/2 lvls). and since bombs don't depend on character size, the extra +1 hit/ac isn't too bad either.
EVERYONE should check the fine print on the alchemists brew potion.
1) They can only make potions for formulas they know (unlike most readings of the potion brewing rules which is "add 5 to the dc and brew whatever you want)
An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat.
This is incorrect.THAT is copied word for word from the Alchemists class ability and is quite correct. Other casters can evade the potion restrictions. Alchemists cannot because the class ability flat out says they can't.
Yes, the witch actually makes a better potion brewer than the alchemist.
Please read the rest of my post, it includes the text of brew potion feat from the core rulebook. You will notice the feat there also includes "that you know", there is nothing in the brew potion feat for the alchemist that is different for other casters.
There is NO reason for "An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level" unless it means exactly what it says: You can make potions for formulas you know. The next sentence puts the kybosh on making potions of true strike.Alchemist get the Brew Potion feat. The text mentioning formulae is reminder that an Alchemist (an non-spellcaster) uses his formulae for the feat. In all other ways the Brew Potion feat functions normally (including making potions of spells from other list).
Actually there is perfect reasons for "An alchemist can brew potions.."
Brew Potion (Item Creation)
You can create magic potions.
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower
spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures.
Brewing a potion takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp
or less, otherwise brewing a potion takes 1 day for each
1,000 gp in its base price. When you create a potion, you
set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the
spell in question and no higher than your own level. To
brew a potion, you must use up raw materials costing one
half this base price. See the magic item creation rules in
Chapter 15 for more information.
When you create a potion, you make any choices that
you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever
drinks the potion is the target of the spell.
Otherwise, Mr. Alchemist here would have this totally awesome feat he gets for free.. but can never use because the feat says "spells" and not "formulas"
HOWEVER!!
the +5 to dc thing or whatever the person was talking about before is wrong. No matter what the class is, they still have to have the spell for spell trigger/spell completion devices.
So let me get this straight though.. I could make a potion of Magic missile, but not a potion of shield?
fortunately potions are neither, and can be made with the +5 dc
|
|
the +5 to dc thing or whatever the person was talking about before is wrong. No matter what the class is, they still have to have the spell for spell trigger/spell completion devices.
Right, and fortunately potions are neither spell trigger or spell completion items. Search around, this has been discussed many many times.