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Strangely enough, I didn't find any thread specific to this (maybe to much) awesome spell. Here is my reasonning...
It's possible to divide buff spells in 3 categories :
1- Spells that give a small bonus to multiple targets (ex: bless, prayer, etc.)
2- Spells that give a medium bonus on a signle target of your choice (ex: bull's strength, keen edge, shield of faith, etc.)
3- Spells that give a large bonus on yourself (ex: divine power, righteous might, etc.)
Now, I don't think that haste gives you only ''a small bonus'', even for a 3rd level spell. Let's compare it with bull's strength (BS) shall we ? BS gives you +2 on melee attacks rolls and +2 or +3 on damage rolls. Those bonus don't scale with your level or the target's level. Haste gives you +1 to attack rolls, AC and reflex saves : that would be enough for a 2nd level spell cast on a single target. However, haste is a 3rd level spell and it also gives you an extra attack at your highest attack bonus +1 (also from haste). The power of this extra attack scale with the target's level, just like the bonus from keen edge. Cast on a single target, both haste and keen edge would be worthy 3rd level spells. Haste is more effective, but keen edge last longer. But, for historical reasons, haste doesn't affect only one target : it affects the whole party. That's not a big deal if the party is mostly made of casters and classes without full BAB. However, if the party counts more than one fighter/ranger/paladin and maybe one animal companion, haste becomes a no brainer.
So I think that, as a house rule, I should change haste so that it would only affect one creature and I would make ''mass'' haste avaible at higher level. Mass haste could be a 4th level spell or a 5th level spell maybe.
What do you think about that ? Do you believe that such an house rule would be unfair, idiotic, unbalanced or stupid ? Or do you think that it does make some sort of sense ?
Thx !
Haste is fine and it is "reflection"
Haste is fine and it is "reflection"
Thank you, I corrected the typo !
I think Haste is fine as-is.
It's a really good spell, but:
1) It's a very short spell.
2) Because of (1), it can only very rarely be precast, meaning it generally will consume a valuable arcane caster round in combat and
3) It's better as you have more fighter-ish characters in the party, which generally are slightly less optimal/powerful characters than casters, who often don't care a lot about haste. In other words, the less cranked out your party is, the more it helps. In that sense it's one of the best-designed spells in the game.
I think Haste is fine as-is.
It's a really good spell, but:
1) It's a very short spell.
2) Because of (1), it can only very rarely be precast, meaning it generally will consume a valuable arcane caster round in combat and
3) It's better as you have more fighter-ish characters in the party, which generally are slightly less optimal/powerful characters than casters, who often don't care a lot about haste. In other words, the less cranked out your party is, the more it helps. In that sense it's one of the best-designed spells in the game.
You just made a very good point at 3), I didn't thought about that. The more the APL is high, the more it's true. :)
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note the bonus attack is only on a full attack action. Since this is likely a buff at round one when everyone is close (since to target multiple people you have to be able to touch them), then the first round that someone has the buff it wastes the bonus attack since fighters will have to close first.
It's a great spell, and very powerful if lots of combat types in the party. But it has built in limitations which I think make it fine as is.
Cheers
I think you should check your history book. Haste in 3.0 was single target. I believe it was single target in AD&D 2nd Edition as well though I don't still have those books on hand to check. In those editions however haste was more potent as it gave the recipient extra actions.
But, for historical reasons, haste doesn't affect only one target : it affects the whole party.
I was refering to AD&D 2nd Edition where Haste affected multiple creatures. However, I don't remember about haste in the 1st edition. :)
As for 3.0, Haste was even more powerful than in 3.5/PF because it was a spell that the caster would only cast on himself to gain the ability to cast 2 spells/round. Add quicken spell to that combo and mr. black mage is able to cast 3 fireballs in a single round. It's a good thing they removed that ability in 3.5, but my question was : is it nerfed enough now ?
Thank you for all your comments by the way !
I agree that it is one of the best buff spells in the game, for almorst any party; without melee characters your summoned creatures becomes much more important, and haste much more efficient.
I think a mass haste would be reasonable. But as other have stated, the duration of haste is short, so I am not sure the single target haste would be strong enough to actually see play.
Haste is fine and it is "reflection"
What are you talking about? It's clearly "reflexion"! :P
I think you should check your history book. Haste in 3.0 was single target.
But, for historical reasons, haste doesn't affect only one target : it affects the whole party.
But it was multi-target in 3.5, which is ancient history ;-).
Plus, 3.0 haste was a whole different animal. That spell was truly necessary for basically everyone, especially spellcasters. (I remember an evoker in our first game. Guy was a bit of a power-gamer, or rather wannabe power gamer, because he was so bad at it. He chose transmutation as banned school. That meant he had no access to haste, teleportation, time stop, as well as a number of other goodies).
Not casting haste as your first spell in a fight was a crippling choice.
Nowadays, it's an awesome spell, especially if you have enough warrior types around to make use of it, but I wouldn't say it's over the top.
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note the bonus attack is only on a full attack action. Since this is likely a buff at round one when everyone is close (since to target multiple people you have to be able to touch them), then the first round that someone has the buff it wastes the bonus attack since fighters will have to close first.
Haste
School transmutation; Level bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a shaving of licorice root)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Notice nowhere does it say "Touch" You do not have to touch targets to target them, if you did it would be Range touch, not Range close.
And no one loves haste more than an archer...
Haste is available via potion and magic weapon enhancement, it is a basic element of the game.
About the reflection typo, it's because we say "réflexion" in french. :P
One of the best combo is slow + haste IMO. It's like the rabbit and the turtle fable, but with the turtle dying in the end.
Stinking cloud is indeed better than haste, but won't work against every thing, while haste will work 100% of the time. Glitterdust was nerfed a little, but I didn't playtested the new version yet. I bet it's still a bless for rogues.
Well, I'm reading the Stinking Cloud description right now and I'm quite disappointed to see that the spell wasn't nerfed at all. :\
Also, if you are kinda worried about the power of Haste, throw an arcane caster on the other side and have them hit the party with a Slow spell.
The Haste will have to be burned just to return the party to normal!
About the reflection typo, it's because we say "réflexion" in french. :P
One of the best combo is slow + haste IMO. It's like the rabbit and the turtle fable, but with the turtle dying in the end.
Stinking cloud is indeed better than haste, but won't work against every thing, while haste will work 100% of the time. Glitterdust was nerfed a little, but I didn't playtested the new version yet. I bet it's still a bless for rogues.
Well, I'm reading the Stinking Cloud description right now and I'm quite disappointed to see that the spell wasn't nerfed at all. :\
Glitterdust was nerfed in a meaningless way. It will still last long enough to take em out.
Haste, meanwhile only affects HP damage. And that automatically makes it lose several points.
I guess I'm curious about your assumptions in this situation. What does glitterdust do to let you "take em out" that isn't hit point damage?
Haste is indeed long enough, even at the first level you get it. I rarely see combats last more than 5 rounds.
I guess I'm curious about your assumptions in this situation. What does glitterdust do to let you "take em out" that isn't hit point damage?
Haste is indeed long enough, even at the first level you get it. I rarely see combats last more than 5 rounds.
I think it's because blinded creatures can't fight back, at least not effectively, while collecting those extra "hit point damages".
"are cripples" it's way too simplistic. What about creatures wit blind sight, tremorsense..
What about blink, teleport, or raise a towershield?
What about drop a smokestick to gaina round for another save?
Blind. At this point they're cripples. Easily mowed down by the hangers on. (summons, cohorts, Fighters...)
Realistically they're blind for a couple rounds, even assuming 22 int at level 5 and Spell Focus (Conjur) thats a DC 19, or level appropriate opponents with bad will saves 30% chance to resist...each round. Sadly being blind does less than it really ought to to hamper their defenses (no dex, +2 to hit them IIRC) but it does utterly negate its offense. Also, I find that summons at that level do far less damage than my teammates might, and also need to be summoned once combat is engaged.
Not disagreeing with you on the potency of the spells, I'm just imagining myself casting Glitterdust THEN haste on any "hangers on" as you put it, to ensure they can clean house before the monster(s) inevitably break out of the GD.
In my experience I have found that glitterdust is auto-win in situations where you are fighting multiple CR-1 or CR-2 creatures, but for a "boss fight" type combat, where the opponents are not favorably clustered and perhaps contain casters themselves, haste is my priority. Haste remains useful in such situations because there's no chance of it failing to take hold, whereas GD becomes just a really good debuff rather than auto-win.
But then, that's only until a few levels later when everyone just buys the boots and I don't have to be bothered.
Unfortunately PF doesn't allow for the former builds, only the latter.
Except no.
The game isn't balanced around the super-optimized party. It's balanced around a much less optimal party.
Therefore it's not the case that the super-optimized party survives and the moderate party dies. Instead it's actually the case that the moderate party does fine and the super-optimized time has such an easy time it isn't even really fun.
Instead it's actually the case that the moderate party does fine and the super-optimized time has such an easy time it isn't even really fun.
So, avoid to optimize too much. :D
Instead it's actually the case that the moderate party does fine and the super-optimized time has such an easy time it isn't even really fun.So, avoid to optimize too much. :D
That ends up being part of the challenge of playing a caster, TBH, knowing how to pull your punches as to make the rest of the party feel like they're contributing. It ends up being the impetus behind a lot of roleplaying too, if the BSF down front knew what your plans really were and how powerful you really were, would he be tanking for you?
That ends up being part of the challenge of playing a caster, TBH, knowing how to pull your punches as to make the rest of the party feel like they're contributing. It ends up being the impetus behind a lot of roleplaying too, if the BSF down front knew what your plans really were and how powerful you really were, would he be tanking for you?Instead it's actually the case that the moderate party does fine and the super-optimized time has such an easy time it isn't even really fun.So, avoid to optimize too much. :D
My statement was more ironic, but.. nevermind. :D
Haste is decent, but its limiting factors mean you'll rarely actually use it, even in melee heavy groups. Namely the short duration. Casting it before you kick in the door costs you a surprise round. Casting it much earlier than that means wasting it. Casting it on the first round of combat means not casting a win spell, which does more.
Luckily Boots of Speed exist, and last all day.
Haste IS a win spell. In every PF game we play, our caster uses it, first round of the combat.
Plus Boots of Speed only function 10 non-consecutive rounds per day.
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10 rounds is plenty.
I knew something was wierd about your playstyle from other posting I've seen you make. Seriously, your groups are only in combat for 1 minute per day? Even if you use the boots for half the time, that's two minutes of combat for an entire day. No wonder you think casters are auto-win...
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Not the point. The point is when you get Haste at 5th, you're better off casting something like Slow, Stinking Cloud, or Glitterdust as it does more to influence the outcome of combat. As such, Haste will not be cast in combat. And as it only lasts a few rounds, casting it right before combat means losing a potential surprise round, and casting it more than right before it means wasting it.
Haste is a great spell for many parties and players (particularly for large parties or ones who use a lot of melee or ranged weapon attacks). Most of the games I play in it is one the of the ‘no-brainer’ spells for the party wizard and/or bard.
Glitterdust is good, but it probably effects only two targets if you win initiative and get it in before your enemies (likely) spread out. And they get a Will save which, against a second level spell, a fair few level appropriate opponents will be making by the time you’re 5th level and up.
Stinking Cloud is fantastic … under the right conditions. Again, you need to win initiative, you need to not be fighting undead or constructs, oozes, plant creatures. Or you don’t have friendlies mixed up with hostiles. Best against low constitution creatures with limited mobility of course.
Slow is also a great spell … often enough. You’re probably more likely to get viable targets, and hit more of them with one casting, than with glitterdust or stinking cloud, but you would be surprised (or maybe not, but I have been in game) at the amount of situations where its not as effective as you’d like. Particularly against anything that has the Cleave feat, but also casters, opponents with particularly high mobility or reach.
My point is not that Haste is the best spell ever OMG why aren’t you using it in every fight WTF, or that the other spells you mentioned aren’t great, but that everything is situational and also likely depends a lot on the style of your game play.
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Like I said. It's limited by the nature of what it affects.
Certainly it is, as are the other spells you mentioned.
Glitterdust ~snip~ The point though is that it actually does something. Right now. For Haste you have to wait until your party gets in full attack range, then wait some more while they chop off the last HP (anything before the last doesn't matter) and all that time they're fighting back at full effectiveness. Not smart.
Yup, IF you can hit enough enemies with it for it to be worthwhile and if they fail their saves (granted, many times they will.) But those low level mooks probably aren’t going to be posing a great threat a lot of the time anyway.
Haste is probably not the uber-spell some might claim, but even on less than a full attack it is providing some benefit to your entire party (most of the time) in the form of AC bonus, to hit bonus, save bonus and increased mobility. Sure it is not the smartest thing to do every time, but to claim it is ‘not smart’ definitively is disingenuous – it assumes that there is always a better option.
It's a given everyone will raise their initiative as high as possible.
In your game.
However enemies have less resources than PCs, so they will still end up slower.
In your game.
Getting your save or lose off first is not unreasonable to expect.
In many cases, yes I agree.
If none of your casters go first, you might have a problem. Of course that also means you won't be Hasting anything.
Because you don’t think Haste is useful (or less useful than you think it is anyway) if the caster doesn’t act first? Or because if the caster doesn’t act first they will be taken out of the fight before they can?
No, please do not insult my intelligence by claiming enemy Wizards will have bad Fort saves.
In your game I’m sure they don’t. A quick scan of two PF Paizo adventures in the levels 7 – 10 range present the following arcane casters as enemies:
CR 10 Sorcerer +8 Fort.CR 8 Bard +5 Fort.
CR 9 Sorcerer +6 Fort.
CR 8 Wizard +6 Fort.
CR 12 Wizard +14 Fort.
I would say all but the last have relatively poor Fort saves (granted in the two adventures I had to hand I couldn’t find many wizards, but I think sorcerers and other arcane casters should equally apply). On all but the last such spells would probably be worth the risk.
One might argue that Paizo adventures are not a good example of optimization or ‘smart’ play – but they are what a hell of a lot of people here are playing. Tsk, tsk, that Paizo, always insulting your intelligence ...
Against casters Slow is still useful for the following reason. Melee must practically root themselves in place to be useful. Casters don't. So casters can move, and still maintain their combat effectiveness that turn. Slow takes that away. So they either have to not cast, or root themselves to the floor.
That’s a fair point.
isn't Cleave that feat that got nerfed even harder from its 3.5 version?
PF cleave has some advantages and some disadvantages over the 3.5 version imo. My point is that cleave is a standard action – imagine my surprise (and momentary disgust) in a game where the wizard cast slow on the giants we were fighting, and they all failed their saves … and it had almost no effect on their combat ability, given they could still hit multiple opponents with cleave and reach (so instead of each giant hitting one opponent several times you had each giant hitting multiple opponents once each). I perfectly understand that this was a corner case, but you get enough corner cases (and you can) and you have a whole room.
Slow also has the effect of working on almost everything.
As I said, Slow is a great spell.
But what isn't situational is that save or loses make a difference right now, whereas something that relies on setup and boolean factors does not.
See, perhaps its naïve or not the ‘best’ way to play, but there are times I want a spell that I know will have an effect as opposed to a guaranteed ‘game-winner ‘ … that relies on an opponent failing a save or not having spell resistance or not being immune to that effect or whatever. Save or lose spells are situational in their effectiveness in that you’ve wasted an action if your opponent makes its save. You’re at the mercy of the dice.
Obviously they are not bad choices, they’re just not the only viable choices ... and sometimes they're bad choices.
boolean
You know, I thought if nothing else from this discussion I will have learnt a new word. Then I looked it up and I’m still not sure what this actually means! Ah, shouldn’t post when I’m tired, off to bed.
Could we please ignore the troll and get back to the valuable discussion?
I'm starting to think that a M.G.D. ("Mistah Green Derail") is a common enough occurance to deserve its own acronym.
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So I think that, as a house rule, I should change haste so that it would only affect one creature and I would make ''mass'' haste avaible at higher level. Mass haste could be a 4th level spell or a 5th level spell maybe.
What do you think about that ? Do you believe that such an house rule would be unfair, idiotic, unbalanced or stupid ? Or do you think that it does make some sort of sense ?
Thx !
Back to the OP, I think that change might be too constricting for the spell. While it is one of the better spells in the game, its low duration and the fact that is doesn't benefit the caster as much as fighter-types (which encourages teamwork) makes it a pretty balanced spell. In my play experience, the group only busts it out for large battles or fights against ground-pounding masses.
I removed some posts (and a reply to them.)
Be respectful.