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Can't find anywhere in RAW to clarify this for sure. But I'm wondering if its possible to buy a composite bow of +0 at character creation with the Heirloom Weapon trait in order to gain masterwork, and then pay to upgrade the strength rating later, and therefore not waste the trait when you later want to add magical qualities and greater strength damage?
My gut says no simply because it seems too good to be true, but not sure what the developers had in mind. And I've no idea what earlier additions stated on the subject.
No you can't. If you could just increase the rating then why would anyone spend the gold to buy a stronger one. There would also be mechanics to support it. <--This is the kicker.
No you can not. They are made as strong as they are. You can't just add a string or pulleys or the like. These are not modern bows with a pulley system, the bow itself is what gives resistance, it is created with that level of strength needed to use it..
That would still involve one of two things. Magic or a vast increase in the tech level of the setting.
Pulleys alone will not do it, you need dozens of new materials and a tech industry to craft them. Just adding pulleys would not be enough.
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No you can't. If you could just increase the rating then why would anyone spend the gold to buy a stronger one. There would also be mechanics to support it. <--This is the kicker.
Mechanics to support it I would think would be the additional 100gp for each +1 from strength. I don't see too much difference between this and when you upgrade a magic item by paying the difference between the cost of say a +1 and a +2 sword for example.
No you can not. They are made as strong as they are. You can't just add a string or pulleys or the like. These are not modern bows with a pulley system, the bow itself is what gives resistance, it is created with that level of strength needed to use it..
I'm not familiar with how bows are made, but being that there's magic and dragons, and other impossible stuff, having a bow with pulleys doesn't seem a big stretch to me.
Well, physically, what determines the strength rating on a composite bow is how many pounds its draw is. I'd imagine you could probably increase it to some degree without totally remaking it. No other weapon really has this issue, so I imagine there's no actual 'designer intent' involved here particular to bows. My gut says the general intent is for a heirloom weapon to be a signature item that you upgrade and which stays with you pretty much permanently, so were I your GM, I'd just let you do it.
Exactly my thoughts.
I would like to hear what the intent was, though I think it's likely that no is the correct answer.
...wondering if its possible to buy a composite bow of +0 at character creation with the Heirloom Weapon trait in order to gain masterwork, and then pay to upgrade the strength rating later, and therefore not waste the trait when you later want to add magical qualities and greater strength damage?
No.
A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow.
Made, not added or altered.
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Looks like the general consensus is no. However it seems to me like it should be possible. I'm not sure what the developers intended but at least in my own game which I GM, I'll likely allow it if a player asks about it. However it looks like I'm probably out of luck for the games I get to play in, as well as for the PFS.
Thanks for everyones input.
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That would still involve one of two things. Magic or a vast increase in the tech level of the setting.
Pulleys alone will not do it, you need dozens of new materials and a tech industry to craft them. Just adding pulleys would not be enough.
Depending on the setting, it may be more of a question of "Why haven't these been made already?" Eberron is one place that should probably be rocking these things.
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I'd wager that if we could find a master bowyer in the real world (and I'm sure they exist), making old-school composite bows (not the compound bows where jacking up the draw is super easy), and put a gun to his head, I bet he could modify the bow to support a higher strength stat. He'd probably have to rework some of the parts, maybe chemically stiffen some of the elements so that more force was required to bend them, but I think he could do it. And that's without a conveniently researched spell to increase the strength required to use a bow.
Or you'd have to shoot him. Because honestly, you can't. He can make it lighter...but not heavier.
No you can't. If you could just increase the rating then why would anyone spend the gold to buy a stronger one. There would also be mechanics to support it. <--This is the kicker.Mechanics to support it I would think would be the additional 100gp for each +1 from strength. I don't see too much difference between this and when you upgrade a magic item by paying the difference between the cost of say a +1 and a +2 sword for example.
No you can not. They are made as strong as they are. You can't just add a string or pulleys or the like. These are not modern bows with a pulley system, the bow itself is what gives resistance, it is created with that level of strength needed to use it..I'm not familiar with how bows are made, but being that there's magic and dragons, and other impossible stuff, having a bow with pulleys doesn't seem a big stretch to me.
Well, physically, what determines the strength rating on a composite bow is how many pounds its draw is. I'd imagine you could probably increase it to some degree without totally remaking it. No other weapon really has this issue, so I imagine there's no actual 'designer intent' involved here particular to bows. My gut says the general intent is for a heirloom weapon to be a signature item that you upgrade and which stays with you pretty much permanently, so were I your GM, I'd just let you do it.Exactly my thoughts.
I would like to hear what the intent was, though I think it's likely that no is the correct answer.
Magic had rules that say you can upgrade it, so not even a close comparison.
Technology is the reason. The correct answer is that officially you can't do it. There are no rules for it. However you craft the bow is the way it is. I am not saying it is unreasonable to change your world to accommodate the request, but that is different than the actual rules.
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I tend to agree with the consensus. I also agree that it should be possible, if for no other reason than to avoid screwing over the character who chooses the Heirloom Weapon trait. I'd suggest a house rule permitting magic composite bows to have their strength rating increased as a fixed-price enchantment, with the cost being equal to the additional cost of building it that way in the first place. This works around the issue but also imposes a slight limitation, in that the character has to get his weapon enchanted to at least +1 before he can take advantage of this option.
Looks like the general consensus is no. However it seems to me like it should be possible. I'm not sure what the developers intended but at least in my own game which I GM, I'll likely allow it if a player asks about it. However it looks like I'm probably out of luck for the games I get to play in, as well as for the PFS.
Thanks for everyones input.
It does seem like this would be well within the realm of Wish or Limited Wish.
I would enforce the rule in a low magic game. However, if you are in a campaign with magic marts and custom items, I would allow it.
RAW I agree that you can't upgrade it.
However, it's really not that big of a deal to allow players to do so, as I have done so in my games. Takes some gold and downtime, finding a master craftsman, etc, but sure reforge your weapon.
People I think are erring too much on the side of simulationist rather than gamist. An archer is going to incrimentally increase their strength throughout his career (i.e. campaign) and having to scrap their Composite+2 magic +3 bow to make a NEW composite +3 magic +3 bow is absurd. Pay the gold and be on your way.
Historically, composite bows were constructed with a wooden core. Horn was affixed to one side of the core (The inside arc of the bow), with sinew attached to the outer face of the strung bow. The sinew provided the elasticity that gave the bow its power. Leather covered the arms of the bow to protect them from moisture or damage. It would seem reasonable to modify such construction.
European bows, such as the famed Welsh longbow, were often made of solid wood. To increase the draw on such a bow, you need to cut it shorter, the smaller arc forcing the wood to flex more when drawn. I would expect retillering such a bow to be a chancy procedure, likely to damage the bow.
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Historically, composite bows were constructed with a wooden core. Horn was affixed to one side of the core (The inside arc of the bow), with sinew attached to the outer face of the strung bow. The sinew provided the elasticity that gave the bow its power. Leather covered the arms of the bow to protect them from moisture or damage. It would seem reasonable to modify such construction.
European bows, such as the famed Welsh longbow, were often made of solid wood. To increase the draw on such a bow, you need to cut it shorter, the smaller arc forcing the wood to flex more when drawn. I would expect retillering such a bow to be a chancy procedure, likely to damage the bow.
+1, dude knows his stuff. It can be done, just not perfectly.
I'm sure magic could solve the problem as well with a careful application of the 'ironwood' spell.
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Historically, composite bows were constructed with a wooden core. Horn was affixed to one side of the core (The inside arc of the bow), with sinew attached to the outer face of the strung bow. The sinew provided the elasticity that gave the bow its power. Leather covered the arms of the bow to protect them from moisture or damage. It would seem reasonable to modify such construction.
European bows, such as the famed Welsh longbow, were often made of solid wood. To increase the draw on such a bow, you need to cut it shorter, the smaller arc forcing the wood to flex more when drawn. I would expect retillering such a bow to be a chancy procedure, likely to damage the bow.
Well composite bows had all the backing glued at the same time to provide a strong and more importantly a uniform lamination of the parts. Adding laminations later would cause weak points and de-lamination of said parts. Light things like say linen could be added after the fact, but that would increase the draw by MAYBE a couple pounds. Which isn't nearly enough for a strength bonus.
As for re-tillering, yeah you increase the draw strength, but you reduce the draw length. So you don't get much more power out of it...and depending on what you start off with, you may end up making the bow weaker.
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RAW: You have to make a new bow.
BUT! You could have the DM hand wave that by having a transmuter look at it and yell "MAGIC!" Some kind of "Duration: Instantaneous" transmutation. Since the item always tries to save if magical you'd need a decent transmuter for a powerful bow. The transmutation is relatively simple so an ad-hoc -4 to the modifier could help with that, or even saying "screw it, it likes being upgraded and forfeits its save."
One is allowed to upgrade strength bows in Pathfinder Society.
Reference from Tue, Sep 15, 2009.
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Looks like the general consensus is no. However it seems to me like it should be possible. I'm not sure what the developers intended but at least in my own game which I GM, I'll likely allow it if a player asks about it. However it looks like I'm probably out of luck for the games I get to play in, as well as for the PFS.
Thanks for everyones input.
PFS I think effectively allows you to sell the old weapon and buy a new one for the difference.
Mechanically there is no way to increase the pull of a standard composite bow. because the strength rating is due to the choice of materials and the construction.
There have been examples of bows that magically adapt to the strength of the wearer but that's not of any help to your question.
Even without the official answer i would have been inclined to allow it, mostly due to the idea that the game should be fun but if that wasn't enough this quote from Terry Pratchett would have made me say yes :)
‘This, milord, is my family’s axe. We have owned it for almost nine hundred years, see. Of course, sometimes it needed a new blade. And sometimes it has required a new handle, new designs on the metalwork, a little refreshing of the ornamentation . . . but is this not the nine-hundred-year-old axe of my family? And because it has changed gently over time, it is still a pretty good axe, y’know.’
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I tend to agree with the consensus. I also agree that it should be possible, if for no other reason than to avoid screwing over the character who chooses the Heirloom Weapon trait. I'd suggest a house rule permitting magic composite bows to have their strength rating increased as a fixed-price enchantment, with the cost being equal to the additional cost of building it that way in the first place. This works around the issue but also imposes a slight limitation, in that the character has to get his weapon enchanted to at least +1 before he can take advantage of this option.
The bold is the part I don't agree with as a good reason. The heirloom weapon has a certain amount of commitment attached to it. This is part of the downside of the feat to counter all its positives (it has a lot). You are committing yourself to this particular weapon if you desire the trait to remain active. You don't deconstruct it and have it rebuilt. It is not about comparing it to real life or whatnot, it is purely the balance of the trait. No having the cake and eating it too.
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Normally, no.
If you want to come up with some rules for alchemically strengthening the wood, or using some low-level wood shaping spell to harden / enhance the wood (or bone and sinew, for that sort of bow), then it's harder a game-wrecker.
Option 1) The alchemical / magical process that allows the bow to be upgraded / enhanced in this fashion might cost exactly as much as it costs to buy a new bow of the appropriate Strength rating, making it only really useful for legacy / heirloom type weapons that the character wants to hold onto for RP reasons.
Option 2) The alchemical / magical process is cheap-as-dirt and allows the craftsman to transform the bow to a 'strong bow' for only the cost difference between the original bow and the 'strong bow,' making it pretty much the same as adding another enhancement bonus to a previously enchanted weapon.
Option 3) Somewhere in the middle. Add the cost to upgrade, plus some amount for the craftsman's time, and a nominal fee for the alchemical salves necessary to treat the wood (or 1st level NPC spell to resculpt / harden the wood), and make it cheaper than buying a whole new bow of the appropriate strength rating (factoring the resale of the old bow at 50% value), and yet more expensive than just paying the upgrade price.
I'd go with option 3, myself. Whatever spell / alchemical procedure would be involved wouldn't be otherwise game-affecting, being only useful for this sort of rebuilding of wooden / bone items over many days, and not something with other mechanical effects, such as affecting the objects Hardness score or whatever.
I'd be inclined to handwave a similar procedure for someone who wants to have their 'heirloom' longbow upgraded to a MW longbow or something. Pay slightly more than the MW cost, wait a week or so (however long the Crafting rolls take) for the process to take effect, and be done with it.
One is allowed to upgrade strength bows in Pathfinder Society.
Reference from Tue, Sep 15, 2009.
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Looks like the general consensus is no. However it seems to me like it should be possible. I'm not sure what the developers intended but at least in my own game which I GM, I'll likely allow it if a player asks about it. However it looks like I'm probably out of luck for the games I get to play in, as well as for the PFS.
Thanks for everyones input.
PFS I think effectively allows you to sell the old weapon and buy a new one for the difference.
Mechanically there is no way to increase the pull of a standard composite bow. because the strength rating is due to the choice of materials and the construction.
There have been examples of bows that magically adapt to the strength of the wearer but that's not of any help to your question.
Pathfinder Society rules and core rules are not the same. I am just pointing out that the answer is only official in that regard.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Can't find anywhere in RAW to clarify this for sure.
The absence of a rule is a deny.
The only rule for "transmute this object to that object" is the Magic Item Creation rules that allow you to add enchantment to an item (like +1 to a +2) but doesn't allow modify (+2 to +1 flame frost")
There is no rule, no hint of a rule, and nothing else to suggest you can increase a strength bow's str rating from +1 to +2. It is no different than transmuting a Longsword to a Short Sword.
Wish or Limited Wish could probably do it (depending on your DM interpretation), as I have often allowed these to work in this context. Just pay the difference in cost and the price of the spell casting (in gp)
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Can't find anywhere in RAW to clarify this for sure.The absence of a rule is a deny.
The only rule for "transmute this object to that object" is the Magic Item Creation rules that allow you to add enchantment to an item (like +1 to a +2) but doesn't allow modify (+2 to +1 flame frost")
There is no rule, no hint of a rule, and nothing else to suggest you can increase a strength bow's str rating from +1 to +2. It is no different than transmuting a Longsword to a Short Sword.
Wish or Limited Wish could probably do it (depending on your DM interpretation), as I have often allowed these to work in this context. Just pay the difference in cost and the price of the spell casting (in gp)
I would probably allow fabricate to work as well, but that's a hair harder to justify. P
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One is allowed to upgrade strength bows in Pathfinder Society.
Wow, thanks. I had not seen that before. This solves my problem specifically. Because for a normal campaign I could just use the Rich Parents trait to buy a composite bow for my predicted strength and just live with the -2 penalty for not having the required strength for a while. Now I have a way to do it in PFS as well.
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. . . it should be possible, if for no other reason than to avoid screwing over the character who chooses the Heirloom Weapon trait.. . .The bold is the part I don't agree with as a good reason. The heirloom weapon has a certain amount of commitment attached to it. This is part of the downside of the feat to counter all its positives (it has a lot). You are committing yourself to this particular weapon if you desire the trait to remain active. You don't deconstruct it and have it rebuilt. It is not about comparing it to real life or whatnot, it is purely the balance of the trait. No having the cake and eating it too.
But there's an inherent imbalance in the trait. The character who uses this feat for an Heirloom Longsword (or any other melee or thrown weapon for that matter) does get to "have his cake and eat it too". If he increases his strength from say, 15 to 16 at 4th level he can immediately start adding his increased strength modifier to both his attack and damage rolls. The poor guy with the Heirloom Composite Longbow can add it to neither attack nor damage, under your interpretation. Even if the GM were to follow my suggestion and permit the bow's strength to be increased he'd only get to add it to damage rolls so he'd still be at a comparative disadvantage, albeit a smaller one. Far from upholding "the balance of the trait", you're placing some arbitrary notion of realism above both balance and fairness by failing to take game mechanics into account when interpreting the trait.
A better way to look at it would be to ask what harm it would do to allow composite bows to be increased in strength for the same net cost as selling your old one and buying a new, stronger one. I can't think of any reasons one might object to this that don't ultimately come down to "because it's not realistic". Which is a pretty silly objection to make when discussing a game that includes wizards, giants and dragons.
Now, all that aside I'd have to say that I do think the trait as written is overpowered and ought to be a feat instead--but that's not the subject of the thread.