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Having spotted more than a few discussions on low-magic campaigns and their perils, I figured I would try to tip the scales a bit. I feel that with all the excess low-magic threads that the other end of the spectrum (who isn't talking about it much 'cause they're enjoying the medium to high magic side of things instead of trying to "fix" something) isn't really getting much coverage as a play-style.
For this reason, I decided to toss some ideas out there for everyone considering a standard to high magic campaign. Much of this can be applied to low-magic campaigns as well, with a few specific pieces being mentioned towards the bottom specifically for them.
What is a High Magic Campaign?
A high magic campaign has never really be truly defined (to my knowledge), but I see it as a campaign where people accept the existence of magic and the world reacts accordingly. People consult healers when they are sick or wounded, and purchase cantrip level potions of stabilize from the local adept for when little Timmy falls off the barn. Warriors consider they may fight magical creatures or wizards with magical protections, so they might carry an oil of magic weapon with them, or drink a potion of enlarge person to defeat their enemies. You can find colleges or lone wizards and pay them to help you learn spells they've researched, or swap spells with them.
Magical items exist and they can be powerful. Most people will recognize the basic benefits of a magical blade. Sharper, swifter, and able to pierce the flesh of magical atrocities, even if they don't understand exactly how it works (similar to how a lot of people don't know how their cell-phones work, but you can still use it).
Most magical items that are relatively cheap (such as 500 gp and under) are likely fairly common and can be purchased at a lot of places. Items like feather tokens, love potions, potions, scrolls, and so forth. They're not consumed by the majority of the populace but they are relatively affordable (see my commentary on economies at the bottom of this post).
Warlords will consider the effects of spellcasters on the battlefields, and strategies that dominated in real-world warfare such as forming large masses of troops, turtle formations, and shield walls may be used sparingly due to the very real possibility of an enemy using a spell such as fireball or lightning bolt to tear their ranks to pieces, and instead may favor spread out formations similar to those trying to avoid damage from artillery fire. Warlords might even outfit a troop of 50 soldiers with a bag of enchanted bolts (+1 bolts) to shoot flying wizards who like to use spells like protection from arrows.
This to me is a standard D&D campaign. Magic exists, and people know it, so people use it. That's the way the world works. When people discover something they use it, and it changes the way they look at the world. No everyone is a computer engineer in real life, but professional athletes can use a computer, and computers can help them become better athletes.
Is Magic Special?
Magic is always as special as you make it. The cozy potion shop on the edge of town is special, but it's special because of the flavor and delivery, not because it sells potions. If you walk into an alchemist's lab and your GM informs you of the strong scent of cinnamon, lilacs, and boiling herbs, with the thick hazy mist in the air from the brewing concoctions in the back, then you will remember it and it will be special. If he tells you about the relatively young sorceress or adept who is running the shop after her grandmother passed away, who has her hair up in a Varisian scarf, and wearing a half-burnt apron, you will remember it as special. When she says she adds cinnamon and cocoa powder to her potions to make them taste better, you will remember it as special.
If you go to the nondescript potion shop, subtract 150 gp, and leave with two cure light wounds and a potion of enlarge person, it's not going to feel very special.
The devil is in the details, as they say. And it's not something that you have to do every time. The group will remember that shop, and it will set the mood for the campaign. You don't have to inform them of everything each time they enter the shop, but letting them know how the shopkeeper is doing today will draw them in. If she happened to burn her hair down short on accident so instead of wearing her usual scarf she has a short pixie-cut with singed edges, she could remark "Like it? I made a miscalculation while trying to brew a potion of fireball in case those goblins came back, but I haven't worked the kinks out of it yet."
The same is with individual magic items. Players love finding odd quirky magic items around places, such as tokens, the odd bag of tricks, or even a wand of a higher than average spell that only has one or two charges left. Sometimes, special is in the form of odd knick-knacks and baubles.
Magic items with a brief story and a fair description mean a lot more to players than +1 sword. If the +1 sword is a shimmering blade engraved with ravens and a note saying "To my love Silhandra" on the side of it when the players find it, that sword will be special. Sometimes they may even want to know who it belonged to before they found it, which could make the +1 sword a plot hook!
That's not to say that every magic item has to be accounted for. Some stand out from one another. There's a difference between a magic item and a "special" item. A special item is one that stands out among what the party is used to seeing. Until middle basic level 7 or heroic level 6, a Pathfinder NPC can't even afford a +1 weapon with their suggested equipment (so it's better to use masterwork weapons with oils), so running into magic gear left and right isn't that common until medium-high levels. Even then, such basic weapons aren't what stands out.
Items with unique abilities are more likely to be seen as special. The designers of 4th edition realized this and added special abilities to magic weapons instead of simple numbers, but even those items can become boring if you treat them boringly.
For example, I created a +1 shocking short sword called "Arclight" for a game I was running for a while. A few times per day the blade could transform into an arc of lightning and be used to make an electrical touch-attack. Mechanically it was similar to shocking grasp but you could benefit from weapon feats while wielding it (such as weapon focus). The sword was created by a blue dragon from her dead lover's fangs and gifted to an assassin to kill the dragonslayer, and somehow got lost. They were unsure if it was the original arclight or a replica, but they loved that sword.
Mechanically it was just a +1 shocking shortsword that could deliver a CL 5 shocking grasp 3/day with a command word. Special? You decide.
Logic and Balance Concerns
The standard medium to high magic campaigns make several basic assumptions. The most notable has already been covered, but we'll go through them here in detail.
1) If magic exists, and humans can wield magic, they will use magic.
2) If magic exists, and they can use it, they will trade it.
3) If magic exists, and they will trade it, you can buy it.
4) If monsters exist, and you need magic to fight it, you will try to use it.
Making sure you have a few staples is key for succeeding in a standard campaign. You'll want some access to some magic weapons, some magic armor, and probably a cloak of resistance at least. Getting a few special enhancements like energy resistance help too, and everything else is mostly gravy. Most of these things can actually be temporary thanks to potions or x/day items as well, which can allow you to get them at bargain prices early on (giving more opportunity for colorful magic items like dusts of disappearance).
At low levels, wands with daily charges (priced as a 50 charge wand divided by {5 divided by charges per day}), or potions of spells like magic weapon, magic vestment, and similar items are cheap. Heck, a masterwork sword that casts magic weapon on itself for 1 hour with a command word shouldn't cost more than about 660 gold plus the cost of the sword.
In a game where magic items aren't available or severely restricted (where even minor magic items are more like artifacts), you will run into horrible balance concerns as attack, damage, saving throws, armor class, and so forth simply just won't be high enough to deal with monsters of the appropriate challenge rating - because the standard game assumes the most logical reasoning when it comes to magic item availability.
More magic weapons and armor doesn't really give as much of an advantage as fewer give a disadvantage. For example, a fighter can only swing around just so many swords before he runs out of hands, but if he lacks a +3 sword and the challenge expects him to have that +3 to hit and damage, it will be sorely missed.
Other Considerations
Since magic items can be upgraded for the difference in value, making upgrades available to existing items can cut down on the constant swapping of +1 to +2 and +2 to +3. That same +1 sword with the raven engravings could be enchanted to be a +2 sword, carrying on its legacy, and eventually may become a +5 holy longsword of speed.
In such cases, treasures such as money, art objects, trade goods, and minor magic items are fine to make the vast majority of your treasure hordes out of, since they will use those to improve their current arms and armor.
From low to high magic, items that get better with their wearer can be fun additions to the game and can help the GM set the pace a bit better without worrying about keeping track of magic items. This would be like the items in Diablo or World of Warcraft that get stronger as you level.
A basic rule of thumb with such items is to advance their basic enhancement bonus by +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level, so a character who picked up this amazing weapon or armor would find it equivalent to a piece of masterwork gear from level 1-3, and up to a +5 weapon at 20th. You can then add special abilities to the weapon, or let players enhance them themselves; but it'll keep their stats firmly in line.
Pricing such items is tricky, but I would consider the following guidelines. Such items should cost about about 50% more than an equivalent weapon or armor, and likewise shouldn't be able to support more special abilities than its current enhancement bonus (thus a +1 sword could only have a +1 enhancement added to it, while a +4 sword could be a +4 dragon-bane sword of speed). If wielded by a character who doesn't meet the level requirement for the weapon's abilities, it would revert to the weakest version usable by the current wielder.
Such items would be worth 50% more than their normal counterparts, so a weapon would be about 3,000 gp plus the cost of the masterwork weapon (the cost of a +1 weapon with a 50% increase in price), and you would have to enhance them with special abilities as you go (with the same 50% increase in cost). For simplicity's sake, you could have such items bind to their wielder, preventing the paperwork of swapping such items (this also defeats the "PC died, party gets rich" problem some experience).
You could give indicated increases at specific levels in the game for campaigns with exceptionally low emphasis on equipment.
In closing...
I hope this post is found to be helpful to someone.
EDIT: I forgot to add the economy commentary I promised.
D&D Economics
While many things contradict each other in the D&D rulebooks (and occasionally in Pathfinder too), one of the most famous contradictions is the flow of D&D money. In 3.5 there was a source that said most untrained laborer NPCs make a few silver a day or 3 silver per week, and live self-sufficiently to survive, but let's take a look at this in how the in-game physics deal with this.
Due to the way the craft and profession skills work, most people should bring in an average of about 5 gold pieces per week by taking 10 on untrained craft or profession checks. Likewise, people in rural communities should have little trouble foraging and hunting some food with survival (DC 10 + 2 per person in a fair environment), and will likely grow their own crops and craft their own food, and even build their own houses out of necessity.
If you have a family, with one member preforming a working job, pulling in 5 gp worth of money, while the rest of the family is using craft to sew and patch clothes when possible, grow trade goods such as food and livestock, and then pay taxes out of that, it's not too bad really. The average family can afford to go to the local alchemist and purchase a vial of anti-toxin in case one of the children steps on a snake.
Such families will generally have spending money as well, and could enjoy a night at a tavern once in a while. They're not completely destitute.
Now those that are completely destitute might be street urchins (like the iconic elven rogue) who grows up poor and orphaned, with no one to take care of them, and some can't pay taxes or afford rent, for a variety of reasons.
But the average person isn't so broke as to be unable to buy food, clothing, or the like, and can indeed afford a potion or oil as an insurance for a rainy day, or a community can afford to pay a druid for a plant growth spell.
Money from profession and craft is an abstraction. A farmer might make a series of profession checks over a course of a season, totaling his weeks results over a period of time, for example. The gold piece value doesn't actually have to be gold pieces out of thin air. It could be in the form of trade goods like spices, cloth, oxen, cows, pigs, sheep, and so forth.
Again, like with magic items, the rules are there for the game. The game is what you make of it.
For me, high-magic campaing is something that looks like any Final Fantasy games or... Eberron (yurk!). (;
Medium-magic campaing is more like Forgotten Realms / Greyhawk / Galarion / Insert random D&D campaing setting here.
For me, high-magic campaing is something that looks like any Final Fantasy games or... Eberron (yurk!). (;
Medium-magic campaing is more like Forgotten Realms / Greyhawk / Galarion / Insert random D&D campaing setting here.
Last I checked they had magic item shops in the forgotten realms, and accepted its existence and purchased and sold spellcasting services from wizards and clerics.
In the PC game Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 (both 2E D&D games set in the forgotten realms), potions and scrolls were plentiful and could be found as treasure on enemies in random encounters (particularly among humanoids or ghouls), and NPCs would use potions to make themselves more dangerous. In Baldur's Gate 2 especially (the AI was better in that game) an enemy fighter that quaffs an oil of speed could tear your party apart; and people in Athkalta sell potions in the streets.
On a side note, Final Fantasy VI is actually exceptionally low magic and could be considered a combination of low-magic, magepunk, and steampunk, as magic pretty much doesn't exist to most of the world except as fables. The empire gets a hold of magic and pretty much dominates and makes magic-weapons. Half that game is about re-discovering magic and the effects of that. =P
For me, high-magic campaing is something that looks like any Final Fantasy games or... Eberron (yurk!). (;
Medium-magic campaing is more like Forgotten Realms / Greyhawk / Galarion / Insert random D&D campaing setting here.
That's interesting, because I would have called FR (3E and earlier version) high magic just because you can't spit into the wind without hitting an epic wizard.
To some degree, I blame the heavy use of the campaign for so many years for that -- it started out with a fair share of epic wizards, and then with each edition those wizards had to get a little epic-er and there had to be enemies for them, which of course also had to be epic wizards and the whole thing snowballed...
Greyhawk never gave me the same feel despite the Circle of Eight or what not, and I agree with where you peg Golarion and Eberron as well.
Ok, I'll go a little off topic here, in the defense of the Forgotten Realms. :)
Well, it's true that FR got a lot of epic character running around, but that doesn't mean that you, as a GM, have to introduce them in your campaing. I tend to see them as background elements and also as a reminder to the PCs that, if they start slaughtering people in the street of Waterdeep just because they are mid-high level and could destroy the whole milicia by themselves, there will always be NPCs that are stronger than them to put them in the right place. Hopefully, a GM should never have to do such a thing if he's playing with mature players.
Hell, once, one of my player wanted to seek help from Elminster in their quest. Now HE knows about Elmister because he read some FR books, but does his character, a sorcerer without any skills in knowledge (local) or knowledge (history) should know about him ?
The answer is no. Toril is a HUGE world and if you're playing, let's say, a campaing in the Moonsea, then no, you don't know who is Kelben Blackstaff. I think that FR's epic characters are overrepresented because almost every books and video games about FR make reference to them. Once again, that doesn't mean that they have to play a major role in your campaing. After all, since they are epic level and they have epic level nemesis to deal with, they got better things to do than meddling with the PCs affairs.
As for the magic item shop in FR, I know that they are only located in the major cities of FR. For example, Hillsfar is the only city in all the Moonsea region that possesses a true magic item shop. So, unless the PCs start playing in such a city, then they would not be able to have access to a magic item shop until the GM leads them there for some reason. So, if you're GMing a game in the FR campaing setting, then you have the power to decide if it's going to be a high-magic campaing or a medium-magic (or even a low-magic) campaing, just by selecting where your adventure will take place. Will the PCs defend a small hamlet from brigands (low-magic) or will they be the champions of Waterdeep (high-magic) ? That's what I like about FR, it's so huge that you can do whatever you want with it. Right know, I'm GMing a low/medium-magic campaing that take place in Underdark, and it's working quite well for now.
And by the way, magic items shop in Baldur's Gate contains a limited, predetermined, number of magic items. I think that magic item shops should be handled the same way in pen and paper D&D (or Pathfinder). In that way, player's won't be able to screw up your game with healing belts and stuff like that and it makes much, much more sense. It also makes magic items feel more unique, rare and valuable.
P.S. : I know nothing about the new Forgotten Realms campaing setting because I never played 4th edition. Well, I know that WotC screwed it up, but that's all, really.
On a side note, Final Fantasy VI is actually exceptionally low magic and could be considered a combination of low-magic, magepunk, and steampunk, as magic pretty much doesn't exist to most of the world except as fables. The empire gets a hold of magic and pretty much dominates and makes magic-weapons. Half that game is about re-discovering magic and the effects of that. =P
Yeah, you're right! FF6 is my favorite FF of all time! It's start really low-magic and then your party become the greastest spell-users in the (somewhat small) world. :D
On the other hand, it's a world with very high technological advancement, and the empire's warmechs are powered up by magic. (;
Hell, once, one of my player wanted to seek help from Elminster in their quest.
My major complaint about the Realms -- and, to be fair, it's one that I found ways to work around, repeatedly, because I really really liked that world -- is that at least one of my players would try to do something along those lines in literally every Realms campaign I ever ran. And, really, if the danger is epic enough, why aren't a hundred epic casters going to take the ten minutes it would take them to resolve the problems even mid to high level PCs struggle with? You can find ways to work around it or justify why the PCs are relevant, but it was an extra obstacle every time that I eventually started to get tired of dealing with.
That all being said, my last and possibly most memorable in the minds of my players Realms campaign set up the PCs as tied into the government of Aglarond and scrambling to put out fires as the Symbul and her Hands all vanished. So to be fair I have to say I did get one really good game out of playing against the Realms stereotype and how unprepared a nation could be for the day on which its numerous epic arcane casters aren't there to save the day.
To get back to the original topic, maybe that's one interesting theme to explore in a mid-high magic campaign in general -- what happens in the power vacuums that occur in which parts of the high-magic structure of the world (be they a particular type of item, a particular type of magic, a particular high-powered caster or group of casters, etc.) are taken out of the picture, one way or another.
Hell, once, one of my player wanted to seek help from Elminster in their quest.My major complaint about the Realms -- and, to be fair, it's one that I found ways to work around, repeatedly, because I really really liked that world -- is that at least one of my players would try to do something along those lines in literally every Realms campaign I ever ran. And, really, if the danger is epic enough, why aren't a hundred epic casters going to take the ten minutes it would take them to resolve the problems even mid to high level PCs struggle with? You can find ways to work around it or justify why the PCs are relevant, but it was an extra obstacle every time that I eventually started to get tired of dealing with.
Well, you could say the same things about the gods in almost any D&D setting. Why don't a god send his avatar/incarnation/aspect to deal with his enemies ? Because it would leave the god vulnerable to a counter-attack from his nemesis; another god could kill the said avatar by sending his own.
If Elminster stop countering the evil plans of Manshoon to help the PCs, even if it takes only 10 minutes, then Manshoon could use those 10 minutes to destroy Shadowdale. Let Superman fight Lex Luthor alone I say, and let the PCs kill rats in the sewers by themselves. ;)
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High Magic: Magic is so common that it is considered standard to have kids spend time as they grow up attempting to learn magic. In some places this causes a class-system to emerge based on those that can and cannot use magic. Magic is also used the same way we use technology to some extent, or at the very least attempts have been made (even if some systematic issue prevents this from working). Mages who wish to be seen as special must be truly legendary.
Examples: Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Full Metal Alchemist
Medium Magic: Most D&D settings. Magic exists and is decently common, but is more of a commodity than an expectation. Those good with magic are like mercenaries. You don't see them everywhere, but they aren't hard to find when you're looking. Mages who wish to be seen as special need some talent.
Examples: Grayhawk, most Final Fantasy games
Low Magic: Magic is rare. Those that have the ability to manipulate magic are treated with respect, fear and admiration. Magic items are so rare as to have a book written about each one, and sometimes several. Most mages are unique enough that people probably have assigned them nicknames in the areas they are known (which are often vast areas).
Examples: Chrono Trigger (from the human perspective only), Grandia, Persona series
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That's interesting, because I would have called FR (3E and earlier version) high magic just because you can't spit into the wind without hitting an epic wizard.
If the bum you trip over while leaving a tavern just happens to be a 60th level archmage, then there just might be some over-inflation in your campaign setting. The only FR books I've ever read was the Spellfire saga, which gave me the impression that in the Forgotten Realms, most children are born as epic level wizards, and continue to proceed from there.
No Magic = No magic or magic items.
Low magic = 1-3 level spells, magic items that require 4th level spells or above do not exist. (( This still allows for +5 magic swords, but they do not have all the flash effects on them))
Medium magic = 1-6 level spells, magic items that require 7th level spells or above do not exist.
High Magic = 1-9 level spells, magic items are very common with multiple effects on magic items, weapons, armor.
PS= Like to top off the High Magic one with Permanency spell being able to effect stuff for Days/weeks/or Years when cast right before any spells :) Duration based off amount of Gold dust used in the casting. What i like flying boats, walls of flame, or storms that last for weeks or years. What i call High magic.
I have experienced and enjoyed games that ranged from "low magic" all the way to "high magic" and very much see the appeal for each type at times and for specific stories. I ran a game some years ago set in FR that was high magic and it was a lot of fun. Yes, my players had a tremendous amount of money and more than their share of magic items, but that didn't make the game any less fun for us because that was the kind of story we were telling. Just because they had powerful magic didn't mean there was any lack of story or RP either. It was a great game. I have actually been meaning to revisit it and make additions and revisions. Ideally I would like to modify it so that the party starts off in a very low magic area (possibly a community in large dead magic zone) as low level characters who grew up together. Then as they reach appropriate levels open the world to them and let them explore and realize that the world is full of magic both modern and ancient, both wonderful and terrifying.
My rough guidelines for the different levels of magic would be:
1) No magic - Dawn of time, or dawn of a new era. The world is either freshly born and its inhabitants have not yet discovered magic, or the world has been freshly wiped clean of the plagues of too much advancement and civilization is starting over with little, if any, trace of what it once was.
2) Low magic - Cradle of civilization times, or possibly the Dark Ages just after a great fall of civilization. Either way, very few people would know of, let alone be able to use, magic. Most true magic is blanketed in superstitions and outright lies. Magic items would be few and far between as the ability to create them is probably freshly discovered, or rediscovered with any ancient magic washed away by the destruction leading to the Dark Age. Much of magic is controlled by the nobility and upper classes of civilization; it is heavily tied into governments and used to control the masses. Think Ancient Egypt, understanding that Pharaoh (a Mage) is believed to be a "god" and not just a mortal king.
3) Medium magic - This is where most low to upper-mid level campaigns are, IMO. Magic is alive and well, people know about it even if they can't use it or have never seen it. Well into the Iron Age and possibly just beginning to reach the Renaissance. Think Roman Empire at its peak but with magic. Most high magic is still tied in one way or another to the government. But it is also being sold to the public, much like religion, and there are those outside of the governments of civilization who are powerful in their own right. There is a healthy black market for those with such talents and items for trade. (Magic items could be scarce outside large metropolis civilizations; due to the ability to make them being discovered only a few hundred years prior. Or adventurers could commonly discover ancient magic outside of civilization from a time long forgotten while the rediscovery of magic keeps generic magic items populated in their own cities and guilds.)
4) High magic - This is where many high level campaigns are designed to reach. Peoples in a medium magic civilization have just rediscovered the secrets to Ancient Magic, or the world is ripe with the discoveries of new potent magics based on the old principles that have served civilization for generations. This is the height of the Renaissance and the dawn of modern times with magic being the science of the day. Grand structures are built using the aid of magic. Weather is commonly controlled to increase harvests and keep cities beautiful. Ships are reinforced and guided by magic. Flying ships are beginning to appear. Although there are many simple people within the ranks of common folk, many who would make a name for themselves seek to be apprenticed under local Wizards of renown. High magics are "employed" by governments rather than strictly "controlled" by them. Yes the governments will still have a sizable arsenal at its disposal but there are many sources of high magic outside their circles. Guilds have grown mighty and hold a large sway on life in any given metropolis. Priests commonly heal the sick and wounded to show the power of their gods. Magic trinkets are common in large cities and if the merchants and guilds don't have what you need, they can get it, or commission it to be made. Travel between friendly cities is as easy as paying a small fee and walking through the "mage gate." Although magic items are common place, there are still wonders in the world. Ancient magic items that rival or surpass those of the mightiest crafters of the modern age. Or possibly modern magical marvels crafted by those with extraordinary talent and renown. Small and medium threats are taken care of by armies and medium magics. The outcomes of wars with hated rivals are decided by who pulls the trigger first on their most devastating ritual magics (think atomic/nuclear weapons).
5) Extremely high magic - This is a society of epic magic. Think of modern times, or even futuristic times, with magic replacing science. Technology may exist but it is powered by magic. Magic, instead of oil or nuclear power, is the source of civilization's might. It is also possible that some degree of science based technology exists, side by side with magic, as advanced Alchemy (again just think of modern times but reverse the rolls of science and pseudo-science). In major cities there are very few people who don't have access to some degree of magic. Even if they are unable to cast it themselves, it is common for them to use the devices of others (Use Magic Device). Cities are built using metals primarily, rather than stone. The enclaves of powerful guilds fly in the skies over the city. Sometimes the entire city is afloat in the clouds. Sky ships are common. Portal networks are common, some leading to other worlds or planes. Even the most brutal wars are once again decided by armies and medium level magics because no one wants to know what would happen if everyone pulled the trigger on their most powerful ritual magics. The only true wonders left at this point are Artifacts and Intelligent Items.
The beauty of using a world as diverse as FR or Golarion is that it isn't uncommon to see levels 1-4 on the same planet. Usually level 5 is reserved for some "golden age" of the distant and forgotten past, of which only traces remain. It would not be hard though to construct a planet on which every level from 1-5 coexisted. Think of today's world; there are places where our scientific achievements boarder on magic, and yet on the very same continent you have vast rain forests where tribal natives still live as hunter-gatherers. The biggest problem with running a game in level 5 would be putting a reason behind why anyone would still be running around with a sword. It would probably have a very Star Wars-like feel to it, where melee weapons became a symbol. You would also probably need a system of some kind where all PC classes receive some amount of spells, because just having access to magical equipment probably wouldn't cut it in this kind of setting. Everyone could be Gestalt, or templates could be added to every character granting them spell like abilities. For these reasons it is probably easier to run a game from 1 or 2 through 4 and only allude to a distant past where 5 existed.
Well, you could say the same things about the gods in almost any D&D setting. Why don't a god send his avatar/incarnation/aspect to deal with his enemies ? Because it would leave the god vulnerable to a counter-attack from his nemesis; another god could kill the said avatar by sending his own.If Elminster stop countering the evil plans of Manshoon to help the PCs, even if it takes only 10 minutes, then Manshoon could use those 10 minutes to destroy Shadowdale. Let Superman fight Lex Luthor alone I say, and let the PCs kill rats in the sewers by themselves. ;)
I agree, however eventually the PCs are going to get strong enough to really start interacting with the movers and shakers in FR. Just a reminder. :) One thing I always tell my players is that every action you take will have consequences. Killing people on the streets of Suzail, even in the name of the King, is going to get you enemies. Get drunk and pass out? Wake up with a missing coin purse and a severe hangover.
Going back to the original, time-honored gripe that people have with FR: why don't the epic casters fix everything? Short answer: because they're busy. They are either managing state affairs (Simbul, Storm, and Khelben) or HAVING affairs (Elminster) or plotting (Manshoon) or delving into the mysteries of the planes. Sure, these casters might be able to take the time needed to slaughter your little slaver operation, but they can't be everywhere at once. Addressing your problem means other ones go unaddressed.
I think I have an easy definition for low, medium and high magic.
Low-magic : Low level campaing
Medium-magic : Medium level campaing
High-magic : High level campaing
So, if you play from 1st to 15th level, your campaing is going to start as a low-magic campaing, then it will turn into a medium-magic campaing, and then the game will start to break by the time you're playing into a high-magic campaing. :P
P.S. : Waterdeep, population = 130 thousand.
If you sleep with ten ladies of ill repute in Waterdeep, I highly doubt that you'll be bedding with at least one epic level mage and/or polymorphed dragon and/or godly avatar. If you do, then maybe you should seek another GM with a better sense of proportion.
However, I have to admit that I played in a FR campaing where the GM felt compelled to put all those epic-level characters into his game. That was really painful and it made me understand why some people hate the FR campaing setting so much. But that's not because of the campaing setting itself, that's because of a bad GM who tought it would be a ''kewl'' idea to bring in Drizzt so that he could steal the spotlight from the PCs.
Didn't Forgotten Realms described itself as a high magic setting? It used to in 2E anyways...
It seems to me that the default level of magic switched from medium to high in the transition between 2E and 3rd edition/pathfinder.
Magic used to be a nice bonus, now its a necessity and players can legitimately become angry at their DM if, by lack of magic items, they fall behind the mathematical curve of power... because the power curve exist. The game expects that magnitude of magical bling.
The 2E FR games we used to play - which were looked-down upon for their "monthy-haulism" - were NOTHING in comparison to what a typical 3.5 character have (according to its RAW wealth-by-level).
IMO, magic has been overdone in 3E and for that reason, people continuously try to wrap their brains around a low-magic setting, or low-magic item dependency, or talk about the loss of "magic" in magic, or or nostalgically look-back at how cool magic items used to be etc...
'findel
Didn't Forgotten Realms described itself as a high magic setting? It used to in 2E anyways...
It seems to me that the default level of magic switched from medium to high in the transition between 2E and 3rd edition/pathfinder.
Magic used to be a nice bonus, now its a necessity and players can legitimately become angry at their DM if, by lack of magic items, they fall behind the mathematical curve of power... because the power curve exist. The game expects that magnitude of magical bling.
The 2E FR games we used to play - which were looked-down upon for their "monthy-haulism" - were NOTHING in comparison to what a typical 3.5 character have (according to its RAW wealth-by-level).
IMO, magic has been overdone in 3E and for that reason, people continuously try to wrap their brains around a low-magic setting, or low-magic item dependency, or talk about the loss of "magic" in magic, or or nostalgically look-back at how cool magic items used to be etc...
'findel
Second Edition D&D required the same magic items. There were still monster requiring +X weapons to hit them. You needed the ring of protection to boost your saves. You needed the AC to avoid death more so in 2E than in third due to much less hit points. The only real difference was magic shops didn't exist for the most part. So the magic Items you had were what you found adventuring.
Monty haul games came about due to too many magic items at too low of level.
Second Edition D&D required the same magic items. There were still monster requiring +X weapons to hit them. You needed the ring of protection to boost your saves. You needed the AC to avoid death more so in 2E than in third due to much less hit points. The only real difference was magic shops didn't exist for the most part. So the magic Items you had were what you found adventuring.
You're 100% right about the monsters requiring +X weapons to hit them. In fact, those monsters were totally immune to +(X-1) weapons so the +X weapons were even more needed by the PCs.
That's one of the things that confuses me a little. The new damage reduction system (from 3.5 and PF) is very forgiving. Even if you don't have the right weapon to hit the monster, breaking it's DR is a piece of cake with feats like power attack and deadly shot, or even spells like magic weapon. However, it's seems that a lot of 3.5 and PF players view the slightest modifications of the wealth by level system as an outrageous blasphemy while it's, in fact, not a big deal. I think it's more easy to balance the difficulty level of a ''low-magic'' campaing while using the CR system than doing so for, let's say, a group of 5 or 6 PCs (instead of 4). Anyway, even the power level of a group of 4 PCs in a normal-magic campaing can vary tremendously because of different factors like the PCs' classes, the point-buy system you use (15, 20, 25 or higher), the amount of optimization of the PCs, etc. Sorry, but I don't believe that the difference of the power level between a PC in a low-magic campaing and a PC in a medium-magic campaing is greater than the difference of the power level between a PC using the 15 points buy system and a PC using the 25 point buy system.
As for the magic items shops, it's more related to the campaing than the edition, really. I still use some old books from AD&D 2nd Ed. (I'm running a home-converted version of Night Below) and magic items shops are mentionned in those as well. So the 3rd edition didn't really ''create'' the magic items shops. (;
P.S.: If there's a lot of players raging against low-magic campaing, I would guess that's because they played with GMs that didn't really knew what they were doing and they made the game seems unfair. Or maybe some players just can't take a ''no'' for an answer from the GM when they ask if they can buy an healing belt...
Didn't Forgotten Realms described itself as a high magic setting? It used to in 2E anyways...
It seems to me that the default level of magic switched from medium to high in the transition between 2E and 3rd edition/pathfinder.
Magic used to be a nice bonus, now its a necessity and players can legitimately become angry at their DM if, by lack of magic items, they fall behind the mathematical curve of power... because the power curve exist. The game expects that magnitude of magical bling.
The 2E FR games we used to play - which were looked-down upon for their "monthy-haulism" - were NOTHING in comparison to what a typical 3.5 character have (according to its RAW wealth-by-level).
IMO, magic has been overdone in 3E and for that reason, people continuously try to wrap their brains around a low-magic setting, or low-magic item dependency, or talk about the loss of "magic" in magic, or or nostalgically look-back at how cool magic items used to be etc...
'findel
Monty Haul was looked down upon because treasure = XP back than.
Look at the magic item creation rules: any item you create = free Treasure. Which may have been why they weren't easy to make.And you were expected to find treasure (within 3.5 values actually) if you ever looked at any 2nd module.
And you were expected to find treasure (within 3.5 values actually) if you ever looked at any 2nd module.
So true. The amount and the power of magic items you get in Night Below are just ridiculously high. Oo
Second Edition D&D required the same magic items. There were still monster requiring +X weapons to hit them. You needed the ring of protection to boost your saves. You needed the AC to avoid death more so in 2E than in third due to much less hit points. The only real difference was magic shops didn't exist for the most part. So the magic Items you had were what you found adventuring.
You're 100% right about the monsters requiring +X weapons to hit them. In fact, those monsters were totally immune to +(X-1) weapons so the +X weapons were even more needed by the PCs.
... or silver. Not that many monsters required a better weapon than +1 or silver. A few major Baatezu... The Balor... the demi-lich and a few more but great majority required silver or +1.
As for magic rings and cloaks, they were nice to have but not essential to survive. You could remove those items completely out of the game with much more ease than in 3.5.
That being said, I still prefer 3.5/Pathfinder to 2E for many reasons, but the magical dependency of 3.5 irks me a one of its major "flaw".
That being said, I still prefer 3.5/Pathfinder to 2E for many reasons, but the magical dependency of 3.5 irks me a one of its major "flaw".
Is there really a dependency in 3.5/PF ?
Sure, there is a wealth by level curve suggested in the rules, but I don't believe that moving away a little from it is game breaking, or, at least, not as much as some people would pretend. Why ? Because of the various reasons I mentionned in my previous posts : Forgiving DR, various points-buy systems, variable number of PCs in the party, difference between classes, min-max built vs normal built, etc.
I've always thought of Eberron as a High Magic campaign setting. Just my two cents. I mean Airships and Trains (Lightning Rails)! Powered by magically bound elementals! Thats pretty high magic indeed.
You forgot the living constructs that look like ninja turtles ! :P
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I've always thought of Eberron as a High Magic campaign setting. Just my two cents. I mean Airships and Trains (Lightning Rails)! Powered by magically bound elementals! Thats pretty high magic indeed.You forgot the living constructs that look like ninja turtles ! :P
How in the hell I forgot to mention the Warforged is beyond me. I'm actually playing one in an PbEmail right now. LOL!
Low magic, medium magic and high magic can be classified two different ways, either based on the power level or on the availability. For example, it is a very different game where low magic means a limit on how powerful spells and items can ever be versus a game where you get a lot less spells and items in general, even though the powerful stuff is still out there somewhere to eventually find.
And is is a low magic or high magic setting where virtually everyone has easy access to magic or can cast a spell or two, but most of it is low level or even cantrip level stuff?
Low magic, medium magic and high magic can be classified two different ways, either based on the power level or on the availability. For example, it is a very different game where low magic means a limit on how powerful spells and items can ever be versus a game where you get a lot less spells and items in general, even though the powerful stuff is still out there somewhere to eventually find.
And is is a low magic or high magic setting where virtually everyone has easy access to magic or can cast a spell or two, but most of it is low level or even cantrip level stuff?
From what I've gathered by reading low magic threads, it seems to be a general lack of magic. More specifically, a lack of magic items, but sometimes restricted, limited, or no access to high level magic as well (but this is usually due to trying to balance low-magic).
I ran a game I would consider moderate to high magic once which actually had very little in the way of high level spells. They existed but I created a system where spellcasters could cast spells infinitely, but they had to make a check to do so. The check DC increased with the level of the spell they were trying to cast, with the spells more or less tiered. Finally, there was a backlash system which represented the difficulty and danger of channeling such extreme energies, which made casting higher level spells dangerous.
Cantrips / Orisons risked no harm and were trivial to use.
1st - 3rd level spells were the go-to spells. Everyone used these. At low-levels you could probably pull these off fairly easily, and they became staples of casters as they gained levels.
4th-6th level spells were serious. These spells were the spells that you probably didn't want to use most of the time, but tended to let people know you meant business.
7th-9th level spells were godlike magic. Casting one of these was risky, because not only was the backlash damage very formidable, but they were difficult to cast. Often you could only do so reliably with multiple casters using aid-another on the checks.
However, there were no spells per day. Spontaneous casters instead received a significant bonus to their check to cast a spell. So while wizards, clerics, and druids were definitely more versatile, sorcerers were more powerful, and could conjure more powerful spells with far less risk than the other casters. Of course, you couldn't cast spells higher than your class could prepare/know.
My group loved the system. The group consisted of a Paladin, Rogue, Cleric/Wizard/Theurge, Wizard, and Fighter. They reached somewhere around 11th level, if memory serves before I ended the campaign, but the spells they were tossing around were in the 1-3 range more often than not. It was also pretty fun to see some wizards get into it, since you'd end up with wild dispelling duels.
I couldn't call that setting anything but high-magic however. Magic was everywhere.
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@Ashiel: Interestingly that's kind of how the spell point system my table uses ends up breaking down. The low level spells are extremely cheap to the point of being essentially infinite, but throw some metamagic* on there or start using high level spells and you'll find yourself in trouble quickly. If I have a level 3 caster cast a normal and a quickened spell every round they will round out in the first fight even if they are extremely talented (i.e. have lots of spellpoints for their level). Have that same caster cast at a normal pace and they could go for about 6-7 minutes. At high levels this stays true, but the level of spell they can cast and last that long is still limited to about level 3. A level 9 spell takes about a fifth of the spell points of a max level caster.
However, I also allow people to take a feat to gain a caster level (including spell points, spell access, etc). An actual class grants a bonus spell known** every other level and an extra feat when you first take a level in one (no double-dipping, though). My wizard just went from Wiz 2 to Wiz 2/Monk 1 and took the feat to keep their casting up. They're down a spell known, but should be alright.
* Metamagic in the spell point system we use still increases the cost as expected, but is not limited by spell level as normal. Instead each point of metamagic adjustment increases the stat required to cast the spell by 2. So to quicken a level 1 spell requires 19 in your casting stat.
** In this system all casters are spontaneous, but can take a feat to cast out of a spell book (takes 3 feats to cast out of it without taking several rounds or possibly minutes extra).
Just because I feel like babbling about my campaign... so ignore me if you wish.
I'm not sure how I'd classify my homebrew world but I tend to go by a guideline that low-level magic is common, high level magic is rare.
Even a hamlet is likely to have an Adept or two, if not a 1st level PC-class spellcaster (if only ONE for the whole thorp). And the community will reward them handsomely for keeping the well water clean (create water and purify food and drink) and doing what they can to save lives of injured townsfolk. Alchemical items and low level potions are common and can be found in most civilized areas. The presence of these things makes the standard of living fairly high--except of course where griffons are stealing sheep and goblins are poisoning the well, etc. etc. That's why we still need adventurers.
If you go into a major city, you can probably find most of what the game classifies as "minor magic items" and at least a few medium ones. Major magic items need to be commissioned, however, save on the offchance someone has the needed item in their personal possession for another reason. Scroll of Scorching Ray? Easy. Scroll of Meteor Swarm? Highly unlikely.
If you go into any fairly well populated area, you are definitely going to find spellcasters, perhaps even a good variety of them.
But there is one, maybe two 20th level arcane casters in the whole world (not counting high level PCs). And they've got a lot of work to do, they aren't going to be going around casting little spells and making magic items for every needy adventurer to come along.
Many governments have laws about use of magic to create and sell magic items--or even ordinary items via the use of spells like fabricate. Many governments also seek out talented spellcasters and employ them so that anything they can do that affects the economy can do so in the government's favor. (No I haven't gone deeply into the actual statistics and economics of this because usually I'm too busy thinking about how the lich king plans to kill the PCs, but I have tried to think about it enough that the world makes sense at least at a glance. And because I have the mathematical skills of a small rock.)
I guess that's a medium magic campaign? Maybe it is high magic, I don't know.
I am actually working on a fairly high magic campaign world that will incorparate certain low magic ideas for the campaign I run after the current one. (Weird right)
It is based on the word of the Taltos Novels by Steven Brust. Its a world where almost the whole population of one world is capable of some level of magic (simply being a citizen gives you access to some cantrips) and where teleportation is a more common mode of transport then walking in the upper classes and among casters.
Everyone communicates psionically. Everyone. Basically the whole world has cell phones. You have to know the person and it is slightly distracting to contact them, potentially across just about any distance.
Some characters are high levels in multiple spellcasting disciplines. Sorcery, psychics, witchcraft and wizardry (which is related to sorcery but generally involves a different kind of training). And almost everyone main character is both a caster and a martial type guy. The main character has at least 3 classes (probably 5)
Interestingly enough magic items are fairly common but the ones that really matter are rare. So the christmas tree effect doesnt make sense in the world. But highering a spellcaster to put cast spells for you (or protect against such spells) is about as challenging as calling a cab in our world.
In the end I decided on a kind of gestalt game with heroic distinctions to replace big six items, and will probably give the players each a legacy type weapon (or great weapon).
Should be interesting. My players guide is already 15 typed pages long (mostly containing world information and traits and such).
Stuff.
Mistah, you're comparing the effectiveness of high level PCs following the wealth by level normal curve with high level PCs with NO MAGIC ITEMS AT ALL. Of course it's going to break the game if you don't have a decent number of magic items at 15th level. We both agree on that point I believe, and I, personally, would never play in a NO MAGIC campaing for this obvious reason. It's D&D after all, and magic has always been an important part of the game. My argument was that I don't believe that the game will end up broken if the GM makes SLIGHT modifications of the wealth by level system. If a 10th level fighter in a low-magic campaing have the gears of a 8th level fighter in a medium-magic campaing, does that mean that the 10th level fighter will only hit the monsters on a natural 20 and only be missed by the monsters on a natural 1 ? Well, I didn't do the math, but don't think so.
Just like you said, you can increase/decrease the difficulty of an encounter based on the number of PCs in the party, so why can't you do the same thing if the PCs only have 70% of the magical gears that they "should" have ?
So I do believe that lower-magic campaings are playable if they are done carefully, but only if the GM's definition of lower-magic is reasonable and fair (banning every spells beyond 3rd level is NOT reasonable IMO). As for the balance between casters and non-casters, they're ways to compensate for that. You can make magics weapons, armors and items that increase physical attributes more common/avaible than wands, scrolls and items that increase mental attributes. You can make the casters pay a small fee for the spells they gain at each level (maybe magical research requires some sort of expansive materials). After all, if you're playing in a campaing were casters are less common than the other classes, all those things would make sense, don't you think ?
As for higher level campaing, well, the game will be broken even if you follow the wealth by level curve, so that's why I never play a game beyond 15th level (IMO, the best levels are 1st to 10th).
No, it gives you a campaign where the characters generally seek out foes with lower CR's. Probably CR8 at APL10 instead of CR10, for instance. That means they advance slower than in a vanilla campaign.
Actually, I would say that certain foes simply count as a higher CR in certain circumstances, so they shouldn't be too impeded in advancement (unless that's what you're aiming for).
If you assume less than full magic then lower the numbers accordingly. Simple to understand. What you describe is about half WBL, so he'll be doing fail DPS, and getting squished all the time. He'll hit but won't make the enemy care much he's hitting.
Well of course. If you're under the wealth by level curve, you'll fight mostly monsters under the expected CR. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.
In a lower-magic campaing, dangerous beasts shouldn't be as common as in a medium-magic campaing (unless the players want to play a very difficult game). It will slow down level progression, but not as much as choosing the slow progression over the fast progression as described in the CRB. If your players are ok with that, it's allright. It's more a matter of taste than mechanic. I don't think that lower-magic campaings are unplayable, but they do requires some adjustments. Put a lava pit near those silly gricks when the 2nd level PCs don't have any magic weapons, drop encounters CR by 1, things like that.50% less magical wealth is about -2 to all rolls, -1d6 damage/hit, -2 AC, -2hp/level, etc. It's mostly the same diffence that we have between a CR X-1 and a CR X monster.
Peace (;
My 2 cents based in experience:
Works very well at low levels, until level 10 or so.
The "penalties" for having less items aren't fixed ammounts, more level means more penalties, at high levels it isn't -2 to all rolls, it is more, for a 19th level character it gets out of whack.
At high levels (past 15th level) it becomes difficult to predict how to adjust CRs.
That's why I prefer playing low level campaing. :)
Another thing you can do to balance casters with non-casters in low-magic/wealth campaing is to let the PCs playing casters take a race with a LA of +1.
The PCs that I'm playing with right now are as follow :
Hobgoblin Fighter 5 (ECL 5)
Dwarf Dragon Shaman 5 (ECL 5)
Drow Cleric 4 (ECL 5)
Drow Bard 4 (ECL 5)
In that way, the cleric is not outshinning the fighter in battle, it's more the other way around.
I have to agree with Mistah Green on this one. It is provable through simple mathematics that if the core classes do not have access to the expected wealth by level in equipment, then they are going to have a far more difficult time, and the difference is quite extraordinary.
You pretty much break a large portion of the encounter building guidelines, since enemies are expected to scale at a fairly standardized rate. Even animals that simply have HD and Size increases will quickly begin to outmatch the heroes very, very quickly thanks to their increased natural armor, strength, and attack routines.
Raw numbers aside, you lose access to tactical considerations and benefits such as flight or size increases. With fewer magic items you need fewer magic enemies, and fewer or weaker enemies overall; which can make judging encounters that much harder.
The game was balanced around the idea that magic will be used, and in fact should be balanced around that assumption (because it will be if it exists).
Like IkeDoe noted, the higher the level the more magic items you will need. For this reason I think E6 is probably the best sort of game for low-magic campaigns. It's fun, it works well, and it caps magic pretty solidly. In an E6 game, quirky magic items are more useful, and magic items might mean about 5-15% difference on checks at the most.
An E6 game with the slow progression, I think, would give many of the low-magic fans exactly what they're looking for.
An E6 game with the slow progression, I think, would give many of the low-magic fans exactly what they're looking for.
Forgive my ignorance, but what does E6 mean ?
An E6 game with the slow progression, I think, would give many of the low-magic fans exactly what they're looking for.Forgive my ignorance, but what does E6 mean ?
E6An E6 game with the slow progression, I think, would give many of the low-magic fans exactly what they're looking for.Forgive my ignorance, but what does E6 mean ?
Thank you! E6 his an interesting system, but I would prefer something like E9 or E10, hehe. It reminds me of 2nd edition a little. (;
An E6 game with the slow progression, I think, would give many of the low-magic fans exactly what they're looking for.
E6 is probably the easiest solution, but not necessarily the best solution for all gaming groups and definitely not the only solution.
I for one, prefer the "sweet-spot" of level 5-12, for many reasons which are too numerous to elaborate here. The sad part (for me) is that E6 plays below that "sweet-spot" and not only gives a low-magic feel but a low fantasy feel as well.
There are many ways of playing low-magic, or at least lower magic than default, without capping everything at level 6th. A DM with a good understanding of the rules and the impact of abilities (or lack thereof) in the challenging factor of an encounter can make it work relatively easily with minimal or no houserules at all.
A DM must be consistent with its own rules; if for example no magic items are allowed, a balor would be a ridiculous encounter even for the appropriate CR. Consistently, balors are less likely to be summoned or gate in a low-magic setting. They would likely exist as some kind of undefeatable enemy, perhaps with equal status to lesser Chtulhu mythos gods. A similar treatment would need to be ad-hocked for flying creatures, creatures with DR etc...
However, there are no "official" guide to medium-magic setting and low-magic setting. If there was one product from Paizo or a 3rd party I'd buy, that would be it. I'm less interested with the typical "play game X instead" comment.
'findel