|
I have gone over the rules and no that basically PvP is a no-no since it can 'ruin the fun for other players'. Well what about in situations where another players actions are already ruining the fun of others and as far as player mechanics and roleplaying go... there would most assuredly be blood spilled. Specific details below:
We were doing Murder on the Silken Caravan and were well into the guts of the game to where we were at the temple in the desert. It was explained to my character at least, being Osirian, that this was a temple of Irori. My character just happens to be a cleric of Irori.. so it was a very intense feeling to be at this desecrated shrine and have a chance to renew its glory. Well, we killed the enemies and I proceeded to go to work renewing my shrine. Of course there's loot to be had so the group goes nuts to grab it all up. I was already having trouble with one member and here he went too far, in and out of character. Well I said that as an offering to Irori we should leave at least a small stipend of the gold found since it was not ours to begin with. Here said character flies off the deep end and becomes uncharacteristically belligerent. He said absolutely not and basically my god could rot since he doesn't believe in any gods anyways. This prompted a small argument at least to help cure him of his heathen ways and inform him the gods are around even if he chooses to ignore them, but at the least an offering (small offering i made sure to re-clarify... like 20g of the 800g and items we collected). He increased in his belligerent acts and proceeded to cast Prestidigitate over and over to make the shrine as filthy as we found it and seemed very pleased with himself after having literally desecrated MY gods shrine we just fought for and I cleaned. Now reasonably, my character would have beaten the snot out of him at the least, but personally my character would have beaten him unconscious and thrown him body out of the shrine for the birds to enjoy.
Of course... with Society rules I wouldn't want to 'ruin his fun' but in cases like there are other characters acting in ways which would demand action from another player... what to do? Our DM and I spoke afterwards and he shared my sentiments, but is it really a Hardline RULE that there is never to be PvP in any circumstances? That really leave things open for abuse from people who don't care and are very self serving and rude. After speaking with the person in question as well he has rather skewed ideas on how religion and alignment work in the game as well and is basically playing a N/E character under the term C/N. I could make a whole new post on his ideas on alignment and what good and evil actions actually are. Certainly also, a C/N character with any reasonable amount of wisdom/intelligence wouldn't desecrate the shrine of a party members god out of pure childish spite, with little provocation. That has the ring of N/E to me since it is absolutely self-serving and spiteful. Obviously, if my very elongated post doesn't give it away... this guy really grinds my gears since every char he plays is like this basically... :(
This is where the Don't Be a Jerk rule, also known as Do Not Bully Other Players, comes into play and if the player cannot cooperate with everyone else, it is up to the GM to remove him from the table:
We’re all friends here, and we’re all playing a game together
with the single purpose of having a wonderful time. Do not
push other players around just because your character can.
Extreme forms of dysfunctional play will not be tolerated.
A little fun banter between PCs can be great roleplaying,
but when you find yourself doing everything in your power
to make another character look like an idiot or to undo
everything that character is trying to accomplish in-game,
you’ve probably lost sight of the purpose of Pathfinder
Society Organized Play and may be asked to leave the
table. Playing your character is not an excuse for childish
behavior. GMs should work with their coordinators to
resolve any out-of-game conflicts. If you are both the GM
and the coordinator, use your own discretion. Extreme or
repetitive cases should be resolved by asking the offender
to leave the table.
|
Our DM and I spoke afterwards and he shared my sentiments, but is it really a Hardline RULE that there is never to be PvP in any circumstances? That really leave things open for abuse from people who don't care and are very self serving and rude.
If you do not feel like you can talk to the player and appeal to him as an adult then your next conversation needs be with the table GM. Stop the game and talk to him. Express your concerns that this player is making it not fun for you. By your description this player is doing nothing but acting out of selfishness in the first place and the GM needs to talk to him about it and put a stop to it. I don't like second guessing GMs, but it sounds like some kind of intervention or deflection should have been going on here already.
In my home brew I recently had to talk to a player about this behavior at the table, but in this case his honest shock at what I was telling him lead me to believe he didn't know his character was being perceived as a total jerk. We talked about party unity and ways to make his character concept work better under that umbrella. The following session was the best role playing session we'd had out of anyone so far. Clear expectations and communication are the best you can do.
It may sound petty, but if you still aren't getting the kind of traction you need then don't sit at that table. Maybe the numbers will work in your favor. Maybe other players at the table feel the same way but don't feel empowered to do anything to change it. Maybe when this guy is at a table for one he'll start to understand.
It shouldn't matter to your character weather others choose to venerate or tithe to Irori. Your faith is yours and you are welcome to it, just as they are welcome to theirs (or their lack of). Otherwise you are spending a heck of a lot of time wandering around Golarion annoying the piss out of people to don't believe in Irori. :) Lead by deed, if others feel the need to follow that is their choice but shouldn't impact your choice to do so.
And there is no wiggle room on PvP. It's not allowed.
|
|
Dealing with difficult players is really tough. DM could have stepped in (but that is me 2nd guessing him after only hearing your side).
In the future, I could understand your god wanting you to withhold all healing and buffs from anyone who would steal from and desecrate a temple with a cleric right there saying stop. On these messageboards withholding heals isn't PvP.
Just an idea
|
I'd honestly still frown on characters and players withholding healing and such, not out of wanting to support a problem player, but because that can be detrimental to the party as a whole in the long run. It may not be considered PvP, but that sort of behavior on both sides, is just kind of petulant and childish, and I'd have to have a talk to players behaving like that.
|
I've seen this type of issue before. Some players like to hide their bad behavior behind the veil of "that's just what my character would do." I'm all in favor of good role playing and even few little good-natured jabs (my paladin was always ridiculed for his rigid beliefs), but party unity comes first. The bottom line, regardless of the type of character you play, is that the PLAYERS are there to have fun. If one of them seems to derive pleasure by disrupting the game and causing conflict because he's just playing his character, that guy won't last long at my table. Or I won't. Either way, one of us is going away.
|
I've seen this type of issue before. Some players like to hide their bad behavior behind the veil of "that's just what my character would do." I'm all in favor of good role playing and even few little good-natured jabs (my paladin was always ridiculed for his rigid beliefs), but party unity comes first. The bottom line, regardless of the type of character you play, is that the PLAYERS are there to have fun. If one of them seems to derive pleasure by disrupting the game and causing conflict because he's just playing his character, that guy won't last long at my table. Or I won't. Either way, one of us is going away.
Devil's Advocate:
To be fair it sounds like the cleric was being a bit pushy too. If I was playing the agnostic/god-denying/selfish/whatever character in question I would be a bit irked if you asked me to donate a portion of my share of the loot too. If you want to leave some of your share of the loot behind for your god you are welcome to.
It's everyone's responsibility to make a group work, pious characters included.
|
|
I don't feel my character was being necessarily pushy in this situation and just said a portion should be left in honor since it's not ours anyways. It could have been mine, I didn't care lol, I would be more than happy to pay a tithe to Irori. The issue in this situation is that it is a small group with little chance of getting a replacement player since if he left, his GF would follow leaving us 2 down. That's where i'm kind of stuck... I get branded a 'whiner' which I don't mind when I know its perfectly reasonable.
I did end up leaving my own money behind which I deducted from the scenario gold share total. My problem came in his decision to desecrate the shrine I worked about 2 hours to clean AND sanctify. In this case the offensive character was a gnome which being a fey descendant made me wonder about his rather convenient proclamation of not only not worshiping a certain god, which is fine (agnostic), but going so far as to claim there are no gods so he's not really desecrating anything... in this specific circumstance it was rather obvious he was trying to cover his actions by rationalizing. Gnomes in general may have an off sense of humor to other races, but this was pure malicious intent which is also uncharacteristic for a gnome who has had a fairly good and eventful journey with several other gnomes in the party to play with as well. Pretty much everyone knew he was just being a jerk and trying to play it off to make himself feel superior. My character is N/G so he is likely to continue to keep this other character 'alive' but that doesn't mean comfortable. I have several plans for how my characters personality will develop and after the experiences he's had in the 4 games he's been in, he's likely due to experience an alignment change as he keeps experiencing unreasonably unruly and bizarre characters to make him question his own path. I'll play it off and not let it make me quit playing, but it looks like I may be moving out of alignment in the next few games which could make me an ex-cleric and ex-monk lol. I'll certainly have an eclectic and probably rather morose character as he grows.
I guess the gist of what I've read is that I have to put up with it until he really crosses a line in which point the GM will have to have a talk with him. I won't kill him, but I doubt I will be as zealous to heal him... I might see a pretty kitty and get distracted... they are cute you know.
|
|
First off OOC, that player was preventing and purposely screwing with the Osirion faction quest, and preventing those with that faction from completing their assignment in that module, as such I think it was incumbent on the DM to step in. It is funny that this topic comes up now, and with regards to this module. My monk monk posted in character comments to three of our party members whom my monk though acted foolishly. I stress it was MY MONK talking to other PC's and not me talking to the players. I threatened to use "stunning fist" on our cleric if she ran into a deadly situation, ahead of me, and that her position was that of support. Now while it would look like I was threatening another players character with PVP, in fact with the current game mechanics my monk would never be able to do anything of the sort unless he wanted to go into every combat situation holding his action on the off chance the cleric should charge once more into a deadly situation putting her life at risk. I also seriously doubt anyone reading the thread and knew my monk could take such a threat seriously.
As far as withholding healing is concerned I had a wizard jump off a cart rather then cast a spell that might damage his 15 gold piece cart, all the while carrying a 50GP potion given to him by the monk earlier in the module, leaving the monk alone to face a potential attack of three scimitars, and attacks hoofs and bites from their war horses. The monk put himself in that position to protect the wizard so that he could cast his spells with out provoking attacks of opportunity, This monk has taken a vow of poverty, and as such carries no gold from one scenario to the next. He either buys items he feels the party might need or gives the gold to the poor. At the beginning of an adventure he distributes potions, and cure light wands around to party members. he also insists that his items be used first, and that he be treated last, if a choice has to be made of their use. As such i feel no in game or out of game responsibility to give that wizard any of my supplies in advance. In addition that the monk will come to his rescue only if there is no other party member in distress. (You can look at my postings to read the wording). Now the player of the wizard has other characters, and in game the monk will treat those other characters no different from any other party member. the in character comments has to do with characters not players.
|
Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
|
...it looks like I may be moving out of alignment in the next few games which could make me an ex-cleric and ex-monk lol. I'll certainly have an eclectic and probably rather morose character as he grows.
Your character faces a test of self-control, doubtlessly sent by Irori to teach important lessons on the path to enlightenment. Her exposure to the gnome's erratic behavior can reinforce the suffering caused by failure to master one's mind, spirit, and body.
The student of Wisdom must first seek purity, for purity grants inner balance.
Eschewing unhealthy foods and drink, the follower of Irori can share her (nearly flavorless) rations on long journeys. (I would conspire with the GM to indicate that her casting of purify food and drink on other PCs' rations eliminates almost all flavor from the food.) Surely he could not object to such generous care for his health?
Some who teach do not realize the lessons they share.
The irritating gnome can also benefit from your character's wisdom and discipline. She can encourage him to rise early when he has overindulged in drink and late-night carousing, teaching the gnome that such practices weaken the mind and body. I recommend the monk carry a gong to punctuate those pre-dawn sessions of prayer, chanting, and meditation.
Consider the noble mountains of the East: Lashed by the storm's winds, they do not cry out for succor.
If the gnome is injured due to his own behavior (as opposed to injuries gained in the course of worthy endeavor), allow him some time to contemplate the cost of his folly before he receives any healing. Otherwise, how will he learn?
|
|
No one gets to interrupt anyone else's faction goal.
No one gets to willingly interrupt anyone else's faction goal.
I've seen a player throw a fireball into a room to clear it out before the party fully scouted the room (party's agreed upon tactic). Unfortunately another player's faction mission was in there. Bat guano happens!
My point wasn't really to you, Michael, more to general GM populace that other players accidentally interferring with faction missions can and does happen. It's unfortunate, but it's not something that the GM should step in and prevent.
Why not? In the section of the Guide titled Dealing with Death is this:
But what if your players accidentally or intentionally
kill an important NPC who was supposed to give them
a crucial piece of information in order for the scenario
to progress? This is a tough one for the GM and requires
improvisation. Don’t decide the scenario is over just
because the old man with the letter was caught in a
magical crossfire and roasted alive, destroying both
himself and the important letter. Reveal that the letter
survived by some freakish miracle (it was in a fire-proof
pouch in his pocket) or maybe the old man had a lackey
following him around who was watching from a nearby
alley and knows everything the old man did, and so on.
Improvisation will keep your scenario moving forward
and will help get you around unforeseen obstacles.
Why does this have to apply only to the main story and not also to the faction missions? In Kyle's example, what is there to stop the GM from putting that destroyed whatever that a faction mission required into a different location to be found or make your own "freakish miracle" example like in the quoted text. Just because another player does something stupid and potentially costs someone a PA, does not mean the GM also has to shrug and let that player lose out.
|
|
He increased in his belligerent acts and proceeded to cast Prestidigitate over and over to make the shrine as filthy as we found it and seemed very pleased with himself after having literally desecrated MY gods shrine we just fought for and I cleaned.
As this point the GM must step in:
1) To help keep things under control, the GM requires anything PvP must be made IC (in-character).
2) Suddently, the filth appears on the guy rather than on the Irori shrine (someone casted spell-turning on the shrine, and the spellcraft DC for identifying this spell is 32 cause there is a +10 penalty because the spell was cast without someone hearing of seeing anything).
3) Anytime in that adventure Rami tries to cast a (beneficial) spell on that guy, Irori talks so loud in the head of Rami that he must a concentration check DC 25 + spell level or loose that spell.
If impossible to solve the issue in-game, the GM says to the player that he will have to report these actions as evil to the Society and that the player risks of having his character permenently removed from play. And the player's Chronicle for this adventure will include a note that this character committed (number) evil(s) action(s).
|
|
Why does this have to apply only to the main story and not also to the faction missions? In Kyle's example, what is there to stop the GM from putting that destroyed whatever that a faction mission required into a different location to be found or make your own "freakish miracle" example like in the quoted text. Just because another player does something stupid and potentially costs someone a PA, does not mean the GM also has to shrug and let that player lose out.
That section is in there in order to help the scenario progress. Prestige awards are not guaranteed. They are earned, and it's expected that characters will not earn 100% of their PA.
Sometimes the bad guy runs away with your faction mission, sometimes no one at the table has Knowledge(Nobility), sometimes players need to learn that certain tactics have consequences.
|
|
Rami,
This is a complex issue. When in-game decisions impact the enjoyment of the out-of-game player, you have to talk it out (not that I'm saying you haven't). I would take the other player to the side (so he's not embarrassed) and tell him that his eagerness to "play his character" is a detriment to your enjoyment and that you'd like him to tone it down a bit. Of course, based on your descriptions so far, he is unlikely to see your point and it does not sound like the GM wants to get involved. In that case, you can either avoid playing at the table with him (not likely in your case) or deal with it in-game. One option is to largely ignore him and do your own thing. Keep the details of your faction mission from him so he is less likely to directly impair you. Another way, which can be justified as good role playing, is for your character to react to his actions in an appropriate, yet non-PvP, way. For example, why would your character every choose to heal him if he has intentionally insulted your deity? (In another thread, the majority feel this does not constitute PvP.) If he objects, remind him of the incident at the shrine and ask why he thinks he deserves the grace of your deity. Perhaps, he'll repent and the game can go on.
|
|
Thankfully in my case, I was able to earn both points from my mission for both cleansing and consecrating the shrine. The GM let me have them since I acted rather forthright in my beliefs as well.
As far as the alignment shift, I understand there are ways to make it work so i can continue to be a cleric/monk or irori, but in character development I decided that Rami had a weak resolve and that it was mostly bluster and pride driving him. I let each game influence his development depending on the sum of the actions. I like my characters to be fluid and flawed like real people. The fact that there was no reaction from Irori, my spells have not fizzled or been altered when cast on said annoying character, and not having any insight at all into why his action have gone unpunished have somewhat disillusioned my character. He is seeking proof and I will refer the DM to this thread so he can have the insight of others on possible ways to handle difficult situations between players. Both the DMs who do games are good DMs, however the one running that scenario is somewhat timid at times since it is a rather fragile group in our area. One false move could cost us two players (the guy and his gf) and leave the group down to 3 regular people, which makes most scenarios more difficult in my experience.
I kept my mouth shut so I had time to think and gain some clarity, but the next game is being run by one of the newly appointed regional coordinators for Paizo (Venture-Captains) and from what I can tell he may be able to handle these situations more smoothly. I plan to bring up the conflict, which I feel is actually between myself and the other player for some reason, so that he can anticipate and act appropriately should he choose to act in a belligerent manner again. I plan to play nice as well, because remember "It's just a game". I won't stoop to his level and will keep things on the up and up. I'll likely use some of the more comical and wise methods of 'attitude adjustment' if that specific character acts up again while staying on the right side of the line. I'll also let the DM know that Irori may be somewhat displeased with that character due to his actions should the DM choose to exercise some creative liberties with how my spells function on him.
One thing I like about these forums is the responsive and intelligent insight and actual conflict resolution tips I've received aside from being told to suck it up and shut up. I'm an experienced player and DM myself and am just trying to get used to Society rules and procedures. I've been under house rules for a decade now lol. Thanks a ton guys!
Rami,
Just remember not to make a change in the way your character behaves if all the other player is doing is being an ass by way of his character. A player who is an alright person outside the game and is honestly playing their character in a jerky way is way different than a player who is a jerk and lets it come through in the way he plays all of his characters.
Also, letting your character change like that when you are in a regular home PFS group is way different that letting some random one-time encounter at a game day or convention cause the change. And remember there is no tracked passage of time between scenarios, so you could easily say that a few months went by after the event in the scenario you described before the next scenario begins, giving your character enough time to think and commune with Irori about it and not have to change behavior or attitude.
|
|
I understand, that's why I'm letting the fact of whether that character is in the next run or not AND his behavior determine my views. It hasn't been long enough for me to decide whether the guy is a jerk or not, or whether he's just egotistical and doesn't have enough self control. I'm pretty good overall with character development and am adjusting well to how Society games work. After another game or two with this guy I'll have a good feel for how HE actually is, and have already spoken to the next DM on the situation and he's willing to get all three of us aside to talk if I feel it would be beneficial. I'm willing to be the bigger man here and let one more session with him pass and if the same behavior continues I'll have a DM take me and him aside to discuss things. I have accepted my role in that my wanting a stipend of funds to go to Irori since they were FOUND in the shrine, and I attempted to say OOC that I was fine with it coming out of my funds in the end, just so long as something was left. One of the other characters there, a Bard, was more than happy to volunteer 30gold which was exactly what I was looking for as a total from the whole group, so I ended up taking away 60gold from my own funds in the end (I took the Bard's donation out of my funds, plus 30 from me). I don't plan on being a pushover for this guy, but don't also plan on getting into it and ruining the fun for everyone. It just sucks there are people out there who can't contain themselves for an evening.
|
|
Point taken. I've had that happen too.No one gets to interrupt anyone else's faction goal.No one gets to willingly interrupt anyone else's faction goal.
I've seen a player throw a fireball into a room to clear it out before the party fully scouted the room (party's agreed upon tactic). Unfortunately another player's faction mission was in there. Bat guano happens!
I've been playing a LG Andoran wizard and did cast the fireball. It seemed a good idea at the time. I had scrouples to destroy some papers conciously for my own mission. Seeing them burn through collateral damage was as far as i was willing to go for my own mission and taking my alignment into account.
So it seemed like a great idea.I was confident I could get the BBE as well as the place where the papers were placed into the Bakst of a fireball. I even sacrificed a scroll for that endeavour. I was third level and this was the nuclear option stored away for really difficult times or to be scribbled into the spell book once allowed.
Burning someone else papers as well came as a surprise. It just hadn't occurred to me at all. I'm now much more careful with the use of fireballs. If I plan to use one in the final encounter I do ask others at the table if there are objections.
Thod
|
I hate to reopen old threads, but I felt that in this case it was probably a good idea to clear the air considering his "innocence" in everything.
First of all, Rami's character actively chose not to assist in any combat where he might get dirty (hint: at this point it's roughly 60% of the combat in all the sessions we've played since we've been fighting zombies) because he claimed that his character was seeking perfection and that included cleanliness. Also, if you or anyone else was injured, even though he was perfectly capable, he would refuse to heal people. Even going so far as to directly say to one of the other players "Well, I COULD heal you, but I won't". By the time we got to Murder on The Silken Caravan, we (as in the ENTIRE group) had put up with his crap for more than 2 levels (which as anyone would know is about 6 sessions) and we'd gotten extremely sick of his holier than thou crap, however for the sake of "keeping a friendly environment" we all chose not to say anything to the GM or him, hoping that it would pass.
So, off we go on The Silken Way, everyone but Rami playing fresh brand new characters and we all agreed to act like this was the first time we'd met Rami, in the hopes of giving him a fresh start and getting some sort of group cohesion. We get diverted by some singing harpies and the one or two of us not affected have to kill them. So, there we are in a shrine of his god and he says "Now, because this is MY god, EVERYONE has to leave half their gold for her." and I replied "Yes, it's YOUR god, so you can leave some of your gold if you wish, however I'm not going to leave mine since I don't worship her." He lost it and insisted that the entire party had no choice in the matter, directly threatened my character with violence and decided that he'd announce that he was rolling to intimidate everyone in the party into leaving their gold. At this point every single character in the party turned on him and pretty much laid out that if he tried anything, he'd be flattened like a bug.
Later in the game, he charged ahead and got himself trounced for 3-4 rounds without doing a lick of damage to anything because the rest of us were in a sandstorm and he didn't feel like waiting for us. The moment we came out, we took down the boss and his minions.
The very next session we, once again as a group, came to the GM and brought up our complaints and he agreed that Rami was completely out of line ordering the rest of us to leave our gold and threatening me when I said I wasn't going to leave mine, also mentioning that he'd talked to him after the previous session and Rami had conveniently left out the bit about threatening the rest of the party with violence.
Did I besmirch the image of his god? Yes, I did. AFTER he acted like a complete jerk. Did I know it was his faction mission? Nope. He was the only person in his faction and he chose not to share what his mission was with the group. For all I knew, he was being beligerant about his God.
|
|
Wow. Just...wow.
Ok, as a player in the above group, and as friend to Bosau, I am going to have to try hard to be fair in this.
Rami started off gaming in PFS with a group of us, 4 players who had gamed together in the past and are a continuing home game campaign.
We had never met Rami, and were actually very excited to be joining organized play. This was our opportunity to meet new Pathfinder players, to get a feel for the community. I might add that we actually live in Kentucky, and drove over 30 miles into Ohio to join this game and play in PFS.
So, Rami starts off a few of the sessions behaving rather...uniquely for a cleric. The Player said a few times that he had eventual plans for his character to multiclass into a monk, and I thought initially this would prove for an interesting and unique character that would be fun to game with.
So, the first few games, he did very little that was part of the cleric class. About the only thing I saw him do was use "Channel Energy" to kill undead, as many of you know the first several missions involve a LOT of undead. The few times that he (being the party's ONLY cleric) would cast a healing spell, it was literally ONLY on himself, never another player. Not just Bosau, literally never casting on anyone other than himself. He never cast "Bless" or any other buff either...it was only to heal himself and keep Rami safe.
Bosau is exactly right in that I specifically heard Rami state "Well, I COULD heal you, but I won't"...which also happened BEFORE the shrine incident on the Silken Caravan.
In the shrine incident specifically, Rami demanded, not asked, but demanded that we leave 1/2 the gold we found there as some sort of token to his deity, a deity nobody else shared. When we the party refused to do so, the GM/Judge mentioned repeatedly that Rami could choose to take money out of his share at the end, and how much did he want to take out? Rami didn't answer, he was too busy arguing with Bosau to pay any attention to the Judge. Rami did not specify how much we should leave, he said he wanted HALF. He never once asked for a lower amount. When we refused the 3rd or 4th time, as a party, Rami then whipped out a d20 and was all "I'm using Intimidate...*rolls dice*...NAT 20! With modifiers thats a 20+, you HAVE to do as I say" without consulting either the Judge or any other player. Rami also never let us see his "nat 20" or anything, just kind of there it was. This was when it was degenerating into something completely insane, and it was only after that little stunt that Bosau used the prestidigitate spell to desecrate the shrine. Further, this statement:
He increased in his belligerent acts and proceeded to cast Prestidigitate over and over...
is blatant lying on his part. First, Bosaus character was a gnome cavalier, and as such only had 1 use per day of Prestidigitate. Not over and over.
This quote in OP:
That has the ring of N/E to me since it is absolutely self-serving and spiteful. Obviously, if my very elongated post doesn't give it away... this guy really grinds my gears since every char he plays is like this basically... :(
is also pure 100% garbage. This gnome cavalier was literally the 2nd character Rami has ever seen Bosau play, and this was the first time they adventured together. Rami has a very unique play style, and frankly I (as well as several others) question his ability to tell the truth. He stretches things to make his point, to come across sincere and nice, but this is not at all how he is in real life.
Later in the thread, OP says:
I don't feel my character was being necessarily pushy in this situation and just said a portion should be left in honor since it's not ours anyways. It could have been mine, I didn't care lol, I would be more than happy to pay a tithe to Irori.
Well, if thats true, why then the argument and the subsequent whining in this thread about leaving all the gold? Why the problem when we said no? Why the long post full of inaccuracies and half truths to the forum? Why not just let the Judges idea take place, go about the game, and figure it out later?
Rami also states that he talked to Bosau about this whole "misunderstanding", and that is also completely untrue.
Note too that Bosau is exactly right in that we, the rest of the party, had absolutely 0 idea that this was his faction quest. We never knew what faction Rami was, and we never were asked for help. Bosau didnt just desecrate the shrine because he was looking for a way to screw with Rami and his quest, he did it because Rami was acting like a jerk (again) and was being far more belligerent than Bosau was, and wasn't listening to the Judge. Further, it was only after Rami made a direct move against another party member that this was done...NOT just willy nilly.
Bosau should not have done this. The Judge/GM/DM should have stepped in and prevented it. The whole episode should never have taken place. It did, but it did in a few ways that Rami left out or conveniently glossed over. He is far from innocent in this situation, indeed as a player in the game in question and having been at the table for all of his previous behavior, I would say that this happened specifically because of how he has acted in the past.
Lastly, and not to be a jerk about things but to just prove a point, Rami the character is completely illegal as a PFS character.
His stat block can be found here: http://paizo.com/people/Rami/profile#tabs
and Rami the player states here:
**I got very good overall rolls for this guy so i made his weak point his ego...
16 Str
16 Dex
15 Con
12 Int
18 Wis (was 16 but +2 from human)
12 Cha
First, he says that he made his weak point his ego (I guess he meant CHA?) but he plays exactly as if he has an enormous superiority complex, hardly a good alignment.
Secondly, this point buy is, according to my calculations a 46 point buy, not the standard 20 point buy, thus making this a completely illegal character for PFS play.
Lastly, as an aside, I have never seen Rami openly cheat, but I can tell you this. The man rolls more natural 20s, or nat 15+ than anyone ever in the history of the world. Literally NEVER have seen him fail...except for the one time that the GM/Judge had him openly rolling on the middle of the table. Why, suddenly Rami missed most of his combat rolls, he missed saving throws, why, he hardly did anything at all. This was the combat where Bosau mentioned that the party did most of the work, and where Rami didnt get a hit in and where the rest of the party killed the boss and his mooks. Rami has more skills than a character should, he has more HP than a character should, he has a much higher AC than an unarmored monk should...and strangely he has NEVER allowed anyone to look at his character record.
With the 46 point buy in place, its painfully obvious that Rami is a power gamer, one who is terribly ignorant of the rules, one who finds the he must have the "winning" character no matter what, one who constantly disrupts the game and honestly brings everyone else down.
Frankly, as I mentioned, I drive 30+ miles to this game store to play PFS. The last session was kind of the last time we were going to come, until we noticed that Rami the player hadn't signed up for any more games at the venue. We kept coming, wondering if he would ever dare to show his face again.
Rami insists in this thread that he did nothing wrong, that he took the moral high ground, that he was innocent in the entire process...and this could not be further from the truth.
I didnt really want to post here, but I'll not allow someone to come on here and play the martyr when its HIS actions that led to the whole meltdown.
Those who passed judgement without hearing both side, I hope you reconsider.
Oh, and did I mention that he has a 46 point buy?
|
|
Hello Rami,
I wasn't there for this particular game, but I have played in the majority of the Eastside-hosted PFS games since they started running them there. I played the Barbarian, Praetos.
I'd like to remind you that for the first three games you ran Rami, I don't recall him being very liberal with his healing. I can only recall him using his Channel Positive Energy power once (at the GM's suggestion), and using a Cure Light Wounds spell once (on himself). I was present for the game where you had Rami tell another PC, "I *could* heal you, but I won't." If that's not an antagonistic action, I don't know what is. Your character told this to the gnome druid PC, Flit, who had done nothing wrong to your character.
You didn't offer to heal my character either, and he never did anything to Rami, nor did I do anything against you as a player. In fact, I'd gotten so use to not having a healing cleric that I decided to add a level of Cleric to my Praetos character so that the party has more healing for future mid-level PFS games (4+).
Please be accurate in your representation of what really happened.
-Randy
Supposed girlfriend of said offender reporting in here (btw, please do not assume that just because a female gamer frequently shows up with the same male gamer that they are together as such). I suppose since I was the one to find this thread (while searching on peaceable solutions to problem players, incidentally) and pass it on to the others who have chimed in already, I should drop in my piece, previously dead thread or not.
I can, with utmost certainty, say that the player of Rami here is a poor judge of a real persons character. Proof being in the fact that for several months, while my friend was unable to attend due to a job schedule change, I faithfully attended on my own. Even in cases where I was certain that I would not know the people I was going to play with. The assumption that causing my friend to leave would most likely take me out as well, is fairly unfounded. This minor bit of my personal character now being defended, I have a few things to say on the true matter of this thread.
Now, for the matter of his characters: Bosau Fragor, the Sorcerer you had the displeasure of playing 4 out of 5 sessions with, is indeed a certifiable jerk. This incarnation as well as the first (having been in a home game) had fairly shady actions, though none stepping truly outside the tennents of CN into flat out evil and malicious. During that home game, that particular character found himself staring down the ugly under-bite of my own LN Monk on account of his questionable behavior, nearly resulting in violence then as well. He was played no differently in society than he had been then. However I see here that you can cite no specific cases of this character causing direct problems in Society. As for his alignment, selfishness is decidedly a whole definition of a CN character, though Rami has committed some decidedly selfish acts himself while claiming to be a NG character.
Churles Puffymuffin, the gnome character cited as a trouble maker for the purposes of this argument, was played only for one session. A session in which all party members save yours and mine (who had previously not had any known issues with each other) were brand new, in an attempt to broker better party synergy and comraderie. Churles was initially played in an amiable manner, as were the other replacements. However, despite this, you continued to play Rami as though each and every one of them had made an a personal affront to him (a good case of being unable to separate player and character opinions, I believe). It was only after Rami flat out demanded that the party leave behind part of their gold for his god, that any trouble arose whatsoever. There were a few moments of bickering, followed by an Intimidate check which was ignored by all, due to it being a deliberately aggressive action (which I believe to be a wise decision). Seeing another party member threatened by a supposed ally, the rest of the party (the majority of which were gnomes and doing so out of racial kinship as much as a desire to deter inter-party squabbles)did in fact jump to Churles's aid, threatening retaliation in return if further attempts to force anyone to leave their share of the loot were made. It was at this point at which the DM stepped in with the suggestion that part or all of Rami's share may be left behind, without anyone else sacrificing their share. This was accepted, though with little grace (whether this was IC or OOC I could not tell and have little care to worry about this far after the fact).
At this point, Churles, in character (being a Cavalier, much likened to Sir Didymus and very concerned for his personal honor), did the most harmless (and might I add Gnomish, which I will cite in a moment here as cannon behavior for the race) thing he could to return the slight, when he very well could have claimed that his honor demand martial satisfaction for the offense (and abstained due to it being an agressive action). While yes, this was childish, childish behavior is decidedly Gnomish (again to be cited later on).
That said, Prestidigitation lasts an hour of in game time and can easily be undone by another cast of the same spell. Churles, being a Cavalier and not a spell caster, gained his one use a day of the spell from Gnomish magic. Rami, being a cleric, having used prestidigitation to clean the room in the first place and having unlimited usages of it, could immediately clean it again. Even if the other 3 gnomes had chosen to waste their castings of Prestidigitation to dirty the place up again, those actions all together take less than 5 minutes of real world time, even if it wasted a few hours of In-game time in a non-time sensitive Adventure Path. Even being a faction mission (which none of the rest of us had any way of knowing), it in no way prevented him from gaining the prestige for cleaning the place up, as say casting a Desecrate spell might have. So I must ask, is less than a bathroom breaks worth of real world time really worth fussing over OOC when it was a completely harmless act?
Now, to cite this as gnomish behavior I could quote endless passages from Gnomes of Golarion as to their culture and views. They are very closely related to Fey. Fey in the world of Golarion are not the nice, flower wearing, dust sprinkling, Disneyworld version. They are the old world, capricious, pranksters from mythology. The kind that would pull a rug out from under an old man if they thought it would be funny, with little thought as to if they might accidentally break his hip. Not a decidedly evil act because they didn't do it to specifically injure him, they just were not necessarily aware of the consequences of their prank.
Specific instances of this in Gnomes of Golarion:
"One minute they’re laughing with childlike
glee over the shape of a particular cloud or displaying
their vast collection of insect heads, and the next they’re
singing a happy tune while wallowing shoulder-deep in
the intestines of a slain enemy."
"Their ethics and mindsets are inscrutable, and their senses of
humor creative and disturbing."
"That’s not to say there aren’t evil gnomes—and when a gnome goes
bad, he tends to be even more grotesquely creative than
most—but rather that, for those used to dealing with
gnomes, unexplained and crazed behavior isn’t seen as
inherently sinister, and most people living near gnomes
spend a lot of time practicing tolerance and extending
the benefit of the doubt." (I will accept that the character, Rami, had little experience with Gnomes and Gnomish culture and may perhaps have seen this as sinister when it was not).
Also the entire section entitled "The Spirit Of Fun" is a perfect example of how this is Gnome behavior, not maliciously or evilly intended action. Especially the part stating that often Gnomes who find someone to, in their opinion, "have a stick up their butt", will do things to them to incite interesting reactions in an attempt to lighten them up. Rami, as a character would well qualify under such a classification by Gnome standards and likely fall victim to many of their "pranks".
I will give kudos to the decision to play him as an overly prideful character. It does make a decent amount of sense and it is not a far stretch that a proud man might choose to follow Irori in order to become more perfect than he already thinks he is, completely misconstruing the teachings of his chosen god. The consideration to a change in alignment is, admittedly, a very flavorful and sensible character choice. I could easily see doing the same thing with a character, perhaps to finally realize what the teachings meant after all and return to the original alignment with a renewed look on the faith. (Not to say this is what you have chosen to do with him, just the musings of an outside view). However, some in character choices that have been made have been incredibly detrimental to the party, far from endearing Rami to them. When you go into combat as a cleric, you can't expect people not to bleed, you can't expect them not to get dirty or grime covered, and you can't expect them not to hold it against you when you blatantly tell them in character-that you have the capability to heal them, but would rather let them bleed out than get your hands dirty. That, to me as well as many other people would not be seen as conducive to the "friendly gaming atmosphere" that Pathfinder Society is supposed to be about. It's one thing to fling a little dirt around a temple that can easily be cleaned up. It's entirely another to knowingly and intentionally leave a player character to die a final death(resurrection spells being too costly at low to mid levels).
I could, after listening to the events at the table you both occupied last night, cite several more instances of antagonistic behavior on your part (to an entirely new, differently aligned and differently behaved character) to support the belief that you are not as willing to step away and "see how the next character is run" as you claim to be. Of course, I could also cite more instances of reciprocated behavior on his part. However, this is not the direction I really want to take this as it was meant really as a defense and not an attack. The finger pointing could go back and forth all day, but what this mess really comes down to is a clash of two personalities perceived to be the player instead of the character. Even more unfortunately, a likely irreparable mess since both of you have a preconceived notion of the other regardless of the character you're playing and an inability to get past it.
*Edited for spelling error.
|
|
I never can write as much as you guys. Kudos to you!
How can we fix this please? Avoiding him or stop playing are not the solutions I am looking for. Lord knows I have tried those and it never turns out well. Normally there will always be a conflict between characters once there is a falling out. From there on the person will be viewed in the light from that impression and it is very hard to change that. I am not asking "Can we all just get along" but instead I am asking "Ridicule the character actions not the player" and try and keep it at the table. Letting it fester and dig at you after the game will just make matters worse. I would much rather a couple of games go long because your characters are working out problems than have either one of you stop coming.
|
|
btw, please do not assume that just because a female gamer frequently shows up with the same male gamer that they are together as suchNo kidding, geez. The things that some people assume :-)
I always just ignore the guy and am happy there is a girl gamer joining us. Never thought you an Michael were an item just friends.
|
|
I never can write as much as you guys. Kudos to you!
How can we fix this please? Avoiding him or stop playing are not the solutions I am looking for. Lord knows I have tried those and it never turns out well. Normally there will always be a conflict between characters once there is a falling out. From there on the person will be viewed in the light from that impression and it is very hard to change that. I am not asking "Can we all just get along" but instead I am asking "Ridicule the character actions not the player" and try and keep it at the table. Letting it fester and dig at you after the game will just make matters worse. I would much rather a couple of games go long because your characters are working out problems than have either one of you stop coming.
The point, in part, is that we've done that. When I created my gnome cavalier which he met on the silken way adventure, part of the whole point was that it was a fresh start. I spent the first half of the adventure being nice to his character, calling him "new friend" and acting like I knew nothing about his past behavior. His response to that was to treat my character like dirt and openly insult him at every given chance. So, when we arrived at the shrine, his insistance on us leaving the gold was very much a case of him reaching the end of the very generous rope we'd extended him.
|
|
I never can write as much as you guys. Kudos to you!
How can we fix this please? Avoiding him or stop playing are not the solutions I am looking for. Lord knows I have tried those and it never turns out well. Normally there will always be a conflict between characters once there is a falling out. From there on the person will be viewed in the light from that impression and it is very hard to change that. I am not asking "Can we all just get along" but instead I am asking "Ridicule the character actions not the player" and try and keep it at the table. Letting it fester and dig at you after the game will just make matters worse. I would much rather a couple of games go long because your characters are working out problems than have either one of you stop coming.
My suggestions are manyfold.
1. From this point on, we need to have any GM (Dan, You, Randy, whoever) look at his character sheet. He obviously has a BIG problem with Rami the character and his build. 46 points? Ridiculous. Before the next Godsmouth, his Barbarian needs to be revamped/authorized. There is nothing wrong with this, the GM needs to make sure that he didnt cheat on this one too.
2. DM needs to intervene if it turns into any sort of PVP action...meaning "intimidate rolls" or casting magic or anything like that. I too believe its best to work it out on the table, but honestly I don't believe that Rami the player can separate his feelings from that of his character. Maybe I'm wrong.
3. Enforcement of alignment. From what Bosau told us last night, Rami's actions in Godsmouth pretty much were "RUN IN KILL EVERYTHING" and were more indicative of a CE murdering psychopath than whatever else he claimed to play. Even a barbarian with a 7 INT should know not to just attack everything willy nilly, especially if his party has repeatedly told him (I overheard a few times) to stop and ask questions.
4. Bosau is able to take care of himself, in game and out, so I'm not going to speak for him. But frankly, were it me, I'd try to keep them separated for at least a little bit. 2 tables at Eastside, move Bosau to the other table. Or even bring Rami over...I won't let him push anyone else around with his RP. I won't be confrontational, but I won't back down from him either.
5. Rami needs to be talked to. He seems to think that he is an innocent dude, that he is just misunderstood. Frankly, nothing could be further from the truth. Bosau, Lookingglassrat, Myself, Casiel, even Dave who shows up a lot said that Rami is the problem, NOT us. Dan may not take such a strong position in this, but again, from some of the things he said he recognizes the problem too. Also, Bosau said that EVERY time that Rami rolled something incredible on the die last night (which was a bit overwhelming) that Dan rolled his eyes and grimaced. We don't want to put words into anyone else's mouth or speak for anyone, but other people need to be asked about Rami. I'd be willing to bet that the problem will always be Rami.
6. Lastly, a DM unafraid of asking questions, unafraid of talking about the unusually amazing consistent dice rolling needs to be found. I hereby volunteer to run a few games, and throw my hat into the ring. I'll look at EVERYONE's sheets to make sure they are PFS legal, I'll have EVERYONE roll on the table in the open so there is no more discrepancy, and I won't let inter party issues boil over.
7. As far as I know, every one of us is willing to let bygones be bygones, and give him another shot. But so far, we see a pattern which consistently repeats itself, and without intervention will continue to be a problem. I'm not looking for an apology, I'm not all butthurt and mad, but his actions and rampant cheating needs to be addressed.
|
|
For being such an old thread, I'll respond pretty much very shortly as I really don't care to try and go back and analyze everything from a months old event which I had moved on from.
Over all the posts that have been made it's fairly obvious that memories are not very good and being influenced by other inaccurate accounts. I am 'fairly' new to organized play and do not cheat as I've been playing for nearly a decade overall and see no point in it. I have never disallowed a GM or anyone from looking at my sheets and was never informed of a 20pt buy on points. I did the standard 3 rolls of a 6 sided and adjusted from there. Rami, is also NOT in Godsmouth and the dwarf barbarian is C/G and was told to 'clear out' the place. With most of the things down there being immediately hostile and/or undead... he easily takes the charge and kill attitude a barbarian in rage may. The only time a questionable outcome came from this was when the alchemist/necromancer is encountered. By his reasoning and fairly low int/wis scores... this person surrounded by undead in giant containers and in a place infested with undead... was a huge threat to be dealt. Sure, this was a little rash, but it fit with the feel of the encounter.
Rami is C/N and does heal others, just not very well so it's not remembered as 'life saving'. He ran out of channel energy uses fairly quick in encounters and I can remember healing several times but got low rolls. I guess if i don't roll max for healing it's just not worth remembering, fine... don't really care. He's admittedly the worst cleric ever by my own words, and the character himself pretty much acknowledged this by going monk on his next lvl. He does have an aversion to filth, but does no just sit out of combat... he just refuses to grapple things as that is his main method of subduing things. This is why he carried other weapons or just punches them. Saying he sat out of 60% of all the combat is absolutely tuberculous as he was usually the 1st one to lead in. In the desert encounter where only 2 of i think 5 or 6 people were able to see the combat, myself and one other... we basically had to either charge in and try to save the trader and his group or sit and twaddle our thumbs waiting for the others... or go help. Did Rami know the 'rolls' the group was getting to find their way their? NO... did I, YES... so... Rami and other guy go fight. I didn't get beat down horribly either and did make use of myself. I was never forced to roll in the middle of the table either. I usually roll right in front of me and I'm usually sitting right next to the GM... so sure, if both GMs have been blind I somehow manage to cheat my rolls with my Jedi mind tricks... or maybe... I just don't cheat on rolls. Calling me a power gamer is a joke too considering I hear so much about using a program to build and maximize your character for you and have it double check to make sure it fits the rules... lazy imho.
In the temple, I did NOT demand we all leave half the gold. I asked that we leave a stipend of the gold we found in the shrine to Irori. This would not have cost the group anything as it was not the groups money, it was a hoard the harpies had gathered. We talked after it was explained more how the loot system worked. I said fine, I'll leave my whole share at least, which I did. I did NOT use prestidigitation to clean the shrine, I scrubbed it by hand and sanctified it as best I could. Whether or not the other characters new this was a mission of mine, just plain respect would have dictated that defacing it because I suggested we leave an offering of the found rewards. I did say that if PvP rules were less strict i would have probably thrown his char off the rock face. I never threatened the whole group at any time, and I never actually threatened his character as even that statement was made out of game and after the game.
Last night in particular, there was a new guy on my right arm in full view of my rolls, and the GM on my immediate left in full view of my rolls. But, i guess forgetting all the 4's and 9's and everything under 15 means that every time I roll high I must be cheating. New caster in group gets a 27 on several skills checks in a row and no one bats an eye because he rolls equally as bad. I just think this whole thing is rather pathetic. You don't like my char's ego and the way I role play him... so instead of confronting me face to face like a normal person might you get on here and bash and lie, and have the nerve to call me a liar.
I got over all this crap months ago when it happened because I figured, the guys chars all have a very similar personality which leads me to believe they reflect his own.. being that of a jerk. Assuming he and the girl he comes with are an 'item'... is there anything more pathetic to get offended over? Really... it has nothing to do with it being a girl and guy gamer... they way they act around each other leads me to believe they're an item, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Big whoop. Somehow me making that assumption completely overwrites the fact that I kept my cool with him so that i wouldn't risk alienating two people. You're all pisses off... oh well, its a game. After reading the poor recollections of all thats occurred I'll just play at the other table from now on, I really don't care. I come for the game, not the people. If you could roleplay properly it wouldn't matter how you feel about me.
If people were really willing to let bygones be bygones this post would not have been resurrected. It would also not have been guided into the defamatory and flaming junk pile it has turned into. It's really just kind of sad things have come this far but thats fine. When I move in a few months I can go to another shop to play if I'm somehow viewed as a cheater even when rolling next to the GM. I somehow refuse to show my sheets to people who never ask. I cheat on my character rolls when I told the GM about my character when we started and was never told about the 20pt buy or asked what method I used even after i made it clear that I was basically coming from 2e and had only played Pathfinder in house games where we still rolled like that. I can even recall saying 'I got good rolls on this guy'. But now it's an issue. Even though I could have fixed it at character creation. How about this then, if I somehow cheated, rebuild his for me and I will still play him the same. Next meeting will be fun I bet. I won't stop coming because of this little temper tantrum online. Talk to me in person like real people.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
I am 'fairly' new to organized play and do not cheat as I've been playing for nearly a decade overall and see no point in it. I have never disallowed a GM or anyone from looking at my sheets and was never informed of a 20 pt buy on points. I did the standard 3 rolls of a 6 sided and adjusted from there.
I'm glad to hear that you're an experienced player. It's a shame you haven't gotten up to speed on some of the basics of the Pathfinder game and the Organized Play environment.
I'll direct your attention first to the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play It's a free download, and it explains, among other things, how to build a character. I'm sorry that you were never told that such a document exists!
Incidentally, congratulations on rolling {16, 16, 16, 15, 12, 12} on six rolls of 3d6. Just now, I used Excel to roll up 10,000 characters, and only one of them had stats that good. (The best was a 47-point buy. Only 5 out of 10,000 were above 41. Only 106, or a little over 1% of the characters, had point-buys above 30!) I can see how you considered yourself fortunate to play such a character.
Rami is C/N and does heal others,...He's admittedly the worst cleric ever by my own words, and the character himself pretty much acknowledged this by going monk on his next lvl.
Forgive my asking, but how does a Chaotic Neutral character take levels as either a cleric of Ironi (a Lawful Neutral god) or monk?
If you could roleplay properly, it wouldn't matter how you feel about me.
This doesn't help anything.
|
|
Sorry, didn't mean to type C/N, I was thinking of something else. I am L/N. So far, I don't believe to have acted outside of the bounds of being a lawful neutral character.
I did speak to the person in question as well while we sat at the table in-game, but ooc. We went back and forth while the others basically sat there and let us go at it. I never said we had a lovely sit down at a bistro and hashed out our differences.
Basically, this seems to stem from the fact that the personal code my character follows is within the bounds of L/N and his roles, but it pushes the boundaries. That is part of the point. I sat down after each game and evaluated how his experiences have affected him and the way he views the world. He became more brash and less solid in his thoughts about others in the world. He will probably eventually lose his cleric abilities and possibly monk as well with an alignment shift to C/N and be just a grapple fighter. That's fine, detrimental, but fine as it is character progression and fits the mindset the character possesses. He IS arrogant and doesn't care much who likes him since he 'knows' he is bound for greatness like Irori. He's a failed disciple basically... future encounters may renew his faith, but after the incident at the temple... it will be tough. I understand these are relatively isolated incidents over a period of months or a few years, but they are basically major events in his life as opposed to the downtime spent serving in between adventures. I spend a lot of time thinking things through and didn't expect Rami to be loved by all. I can play gracious and loving, righteous characters; bloodthirsty battle mongers; 'real' clerics; just about any role well since i take the time to get in the mindset of who I will be playing.
I don't see how Rami pushes people around with his RP either since he is actually fairly passive about most things. He has been supportive of other chars as best as possible in combat heavy events, and the only major downside to Rami is his aversion to actually killing people. I let others do their fair share of roleplaying and take charge, but when people pause as if unsure, I jump in.
As for my barbarian in Godsmouth, I was only mentioned afterwards that maybe we could have talked to him. People are so wary of 'telling other people what to do' that my char did as he was told and cleared the place out. He didn't charge into things willy-nilly either and actually approached the first non-aggressive thing with no intent to kill until it started hissing and trying to cast something... aggression. This made it clear that whatever sentient things may be here are hostile and trying to talk invites danger. Attacking hostile things on sight is not C/E. I've told people, you let him just go and do whatever... he will. He see it this way, and if you have other ideas... let him know. Part of this is not just letting me know the problem, but having them tell my character their concerns... roleplaying. It's almost like people are shy to get into character and get a little goofy, do a voice (great job on that part Russel!), and be someone other than themselves. You let a headstrong, edgy, dwarf barbarian do as he pleases... he will. You need to talk to him, not me. To my knowledge there are no other dwarves in that group so he doesn't plan to ask anyone for their opinion before he does his thing. Since there is so little communication, he basically sees it as a job with some folk he doesn't really need to converse with. I understand Society play doesn't allow time for a ton of roleplaying in our spot (3-4hour window), but a little well placed conversations of merit can go a LONG way. Believe it or not, I, as a person, am very open to conversation and debate in a reasonable manner. My characters, not always so. Rami IS, Grognak... is NOT. He needs to be approached.
People complained that I sometimes roll to decide what action i take based against the int/wis score, which i do when I am unsure of whether the character would be able to think as advanced as i am. I have a hard time thinking like less intelligent characters and my old group and i loved rolling to see how our chars thoughts might pan out. My play style isn't liked.. I get that. I am stubborn as hell though, and unless my logic can be proven false, or I am provided new information, I am very unlikely to change my mindset, on anything. I have reviewed the Society Guide more in depth and see the ability pool requirements now. I have the pdf but didn't read it that in depth as I was basically told just to refer to it for faction info and how item distribution works. I'll give it a more thorough reading for more discrepancies of what I may not know.
Overall, I play to roleplay and for the story and have no problem playing with people I don't like so long as they roleplay properly and don't let their personal feelings affect their characters actions. I have played with people i had a very strong dislike for in the past and made it work, and this doesn't come close to conflicts I had in those days. Even when i would DM a 2E game I didn't let me feelings on players change how I did things since it's supposed to be relatively fun and fair for everyone. I ran a LOT of custom games back in those days with worlds that were completely fleshed out to where they could pass for their own official Paizo/WotC campaign with a little polishing and dedication. It's been years, but I still know how to play at least and will not accept being written off as a cheater one bit. I may need to flesh out some of the fine points of Society play, but this should be approached with areas where I can improve and new ideas on subjects, and not outright saying i cheat. I don't plan to read or comment on this post any longer since this can all be handled in person since we all know each other in person. Sorry for all the conflict, but i respond very decisively in situations like this.
|
|
For being such an old thread, I'll respond pretty much very shortly as I really don't care to try and go back and analyze everything from a months old event which I had moved on from.
...
I won't stop coming because of this little temper tantrum online. Talk to me in person like real people.
I just want to point out that you are the one who started this whole thread. If you'd intended to resolve it in person then you should have never posted it on a public forum in front of God/ world.
From the looks of it they 'dragged it out' later because they weren't aware of the thread until someone in the group stumbled across it at a much later date and found what they felt was a distorted representation of events and sought to put their side of things up.
I try to be objective about disputes like this but the more you post on the subject the less sympathetic I am towards you.
Finally, as Chris pointed you you really need to read and understand the guide to organized play.
|
|
He will probably eventually lose his cleric abilities and possibly monk as well with an alignment shift to C/N and be just a grapple fighter.
While this could be cool in a home-game environment where all the players know each other, you might want to reconsider for PFS. Each player assumes that your character has equivalent abilities for their level. By nerfing, you make yourself, and therefore the whole party, less able to overcome the challenges. This is not fun for anyone, except maybe you if you like conflict.
He IS arrogant and doesn't care much who likes him since he 'knows' he is bound for greatness like Irori.
Many players view the character's actions as an extension of the player. Right or wrong, it happens. By making a character that seems at odds with the rest of the PC's, and having the "who cares" attitude, you could get pinned as a poor, confrontational player. Again, this type of PC might work great for a home game, but in OP, with all the various styles, it might not be the best idea.
I don't plan to read or comment on this post any longer since this can all be handled in person since we all know each other in person. Sorry for all the conflict, but i respond very decisively in situations like this
Didn't you start this thread by complaining about the guy who despoiled your temple? This last part stinks of "take my football and go home" and doesn't ingratiate anyone to your point of view. I do encourage you to (1) talk to the other players and see if by-gones can be put in the past, and (2) you consider playing a character a bit more in tone with the society's ideal of cooperation.
EDIT--ninja'd
|
|
Rami has a really good question. Btw, some of your responses are too long. :)
First, the DM should remind the belligerent player first that his actions are unacceptable to the Pathfinders (in-game) and also unacceptable to organized play (out of game) and that he can be kicked from the table for disrupting play and the team like this.
If he ignores this warning and it's a convention game, this circumstance clearly falls under "Do Not Bully Other Players" rule. He was a bully, so you kick him from your table. I would probably also email Josh so he can record it, so if it happens with frequency they can do something about it.
If he ignores this warning and it's a home game, I'd probably let the party kill him before kicking him from my table. That's just the way I am.
Btw, asking for donations to the temple was perhaps too much. It would have been "nice" for the party to comply, but not mandatory. He however shouldn't have desecreated the temple after you cleaned it, that went too far.
PS. Wow, this is an old thread and now that I've heard the other side, things are more clear. All I can say is "Wow", do people ever tell one-sided stories.
|
|
If he ignores this warning and it's a convention game, this circumstance clearly falls under "Do Not Bully Other Players" rule. He was a bully, so you kick him from your table. I would probably also email Josh so he can record it, so if it happens with frequency they can do something about it.
You might want to update your address book. Josh hasn't been with Paizo since September. You should email Hyrum or Mark now with private issues.
|
|
Again let me reiterate that you have 4 experienced players with the same story, and 1 guy who started the whole thread in the first place with a completely different version of events. Weight goes to the group, not the individual.
Re-read Lookingglassrat's excellent impersonal post. Its easily the most balanced representation here, and you will see exactly where the dynamic went wrong. If its ONLY Bosau who is problematic, why can Bruce, Dave, Russ, Dan, and a whole SLEW of others be completely open and able to game with him??
Again with the holier-than-thou-look-how-martyred-I-am attitude.
Chris Mortika, TwilightKnight and Ogre seem to have a solid grasp on the situation.
Rami, you are always welcome to sit and play, as long as its a PFS legal character and your character's actions do not jeopardize the party, the game, and the fun atmosphere.
Assuming he and the girl he comes with are an 'item'... is there anything more pathetic to get offended over? Really... it has nothing to do with it being a girl and guy gamer... they way they act around each other leads me to believe they're an item, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Big whoop. Somehow me making that assumption completely overwrites the fact that I kept my cool with him so that i wouldn't risk alienating two people. You're all pisses off... oh well, its a game.
I understand that text makes it difficult to discern the tone with which something is said. I would like to clear this one thing up as I really have nothing further to say on any of the events, since I think any more argument on the point really just degrades the credibility of what's already been said.
I am actually not offended at all about the assumption. However your logic of our behavior together, which would normally be sound, is not. I could easily point out that under the same observed behavior from other people we have more frequently been mistaken for siblings than bf/gf. My only reason for making the statement was to clarify the relationship in hopes that people would not see my argument as a one sided blind defense of a significant other. Does this overwrite your credibility? No. Did you keep your cool with him? In game, questionably yes, but obviously not otherwise. Did wither your assumption or your behavior toward him alienate me? No, I could care less if you think I'm with someone or not or if the two of you get along (as long as it isn't disrupting anyone's else's fun.)
My friends were wrong to outright call you a power-gamer. They however were not wrong to call out the build (notice no one outright claimed it to be intentional cheating, leaving it open to interpret whether it was just a misunderstanding of PFS organized play) and to later suspect the build of the barbarian (who is to say that you had been corrected in the mean time?). As for the dice rolls, everyone has streaks of luck that bring them into suspicion at one point or another in their gaming "career". It happens. You learn to roll more visibly to assuage the rest of the table for a while and get over it.
Nobody is asking you to leave, in fact finding ways to keep both you and Bo and avoid conflict had been attempted via e-mails with Russel between the responses and the most recent game. I don't like the idea of keeping the two of you at separate tables because it will eventually wind up the same groups at the same tables all the time and kind of defeat the reason for many of us to be participating in Society play. Unfortunately, for now, until the two of you can work out your issues like big boys, it seems it will have to do.
The rest of us are fine with gaming with you as long as you can build and play a character that is conducive to party oriented behavior in an organized play setting. I will agree with TwilightKnight, while Rami was a great character concept and a great idea, he was not suitable for PFS environments, nor is a dwarf who sees no reason to talk to his "co-workers" and bulls ahead with no regards to their wishes. Now knowing our personalities and play styles a little better this should not be a difficult thing to do.
Best of luck whatever you decide.
|
|
He IS arrogant and doesn't care much who likes him since he 'knows' he is bound for greatness like Irori.Many players view the character's actions as an extension of the player. Right or wrong, it happens. By making a character that seems at odds with the rest of the PC's, and having the "who cares" attitude, you could get pinned as a poor, confrontational player. Again, this type of PC might work great for a home game, but in OP, with all the various styles, it might not be the best idea.
I would go one step beyond this, if your 'character' is a pain in the butt then the other 'characters' should have the freedom to kick him to the curb. I suspect the only reason this didn't happen is because people feel constrained to stick together due to being in a 'party' in organized play.
If you want to talk about being in-character, most people (aka characters) would ditch an arrogant jerk in a heart-beat so you are more or less imposing your obnoxiousness on others in a situation where if they responded by acting 'in-character' you'd be standing alone.
|
|
When Rami arrived Monday to the game late one of the players left the table as we discussed earlier. When Rami asked why I told him straight what was happening and we continued on with the game. The game was completely different from the previous event and despite some glitches caused by the player leaving mid-way through the adventure the evening was enjoyable with no PVP conflicts. After the game i suggested that Rami should speak with the rest of the group and try and smooth things out and he said he had "Moved on" and didn't feel like he needed to speak with them and he left.
As an organizer and Venture Captain I am not sure what my role is and my limits should be with the PVP problems. Personally I have gamed with players that drove me crazy, and have spoiled more than one event for me, but as the glutton for punishment that I am, always seems to go back for more. I have had this in home games as well but the good thing about organized play is you hope to be able to play at different tables whenever possible.
In all organized play there is often the strong contrasts between PCs built in, their factions in PFS's case, but it should be there to add depth to the adventure not pit PCs against one another. You are Pathfinders first "EXPLORE/REPORT/COOPERATE" would be a good phrase to keep in mind.
|
|
Stuff
I think that unless you have a strong feeling towards one side or the other, do what is in the best interest of the society. It is clear that, while Remi might want to "move on," the issue still exists. IMO, since he was the late arrival, and that caused another player to leave the table, Remi should have been denied a seat. While I understand that things happen and people might arrive late from time to time, with the proximity in time to the previous events, this just further exacerbates the problem.
It sounds (just my impression) that you have a group of players with issues regarding Remi's behavior. I would lean towards the group, rather than the individual, especially since, it appears he has no interest in trying to mend fences. "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
This is indeed an unfortunate set of circumstances, and is in no one's best interest. However, as coordinator, you have to take the initiative (nat 20 :-)) and fix it. Otherwise, this will continue to fester and could cause more players to bolt.
Ah, the life of a coordinator/GM is never dull.
|
|
I think this will blow over very quickly, and here is why. Frankly, while we love gaming with Russ and a few of the others, there exists a solid opportunity to start up a new PFS venue here in Kentucky, much closer than the 30+ miles we have to drive to get up there. I have pretty much worked out the particulars, and just need to start scheduling events, which I will discuss with Russ (cincinnati's VC) and go from there. While we in no means wish to abandon Eastside as a venue, and while we like to think that everyone will understand, frankly 1/4 tank of gas, and the opportunity to expand the Society here in local fashion really has its draws.
Russ is an awesome coordinator, he is an awesome GM, and what I would like to call a friend. I look forward to working with him in the future, and gaming on an off and on basis. I don't want to make it out like we are leaving over Rami, this has been in the works since before any of us found his posts here.
I too find it strange that he would say the he "moved on" that night, then the next day come here and post more. It clearly shows that he himself has not "moved on". He stuck around Eastside for a bit, and Bosau actually told him we would be done in about 10 minutes, and that if Rami wanted to talk we could, but he left.
Its a shame. As Lookingglassrat and I have stated, he is always welcome under the assumption that his build is PFS legal and he can be productive and conducive to group activity. If not, then not.
|
|
Well no need to worry about me 'spoiling anyones fun' as I won't be able to attend anymore games now anyways. My van is gone which cost me my job so I'm stranded at my house now. I'm not saying this is the outcome people wanted, but now there's no concern over how to 'deal with me' or whether or not i'll make a surprise showing. I was only 3 minutes late to the last game due to having to stop for gas... the game hadn't even started yet.