The penalties are from different sources, as these are different witches, so they stack.
They're considered the same source, ie. 'Evil Eye'.
Like if there was a particular spell or magic item that gave an untyped bonus, you couldn't use multiple uses of the spell (even by different casters) or item to stack effects.
Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells
So sadly, it does not work.
The penalties are from different sources, as these are different witches, so they stack.They're considered the same source, ie. 'Evil Eye'.
Like if there was a particular spell or magic item that gave an untyped bonus, you couldn't use multiple uses of the spell (even by different casters) or item to stack effects.
Doesn't the same source/different source rules only really apply to spells, which evil eye is not?
Penalties in general stack with one another whereas bonuses do not.
In your example of 16, level 8 witches, it sure does show them as effective.
But not only are you using stacking to do this, but you are talking about 16 witches, thats a lot?
Using one witch, as probably found within a party, would be a different storey and Im sure she wouldnt be anywhere as spectacular with the one gun blaring.
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Why use such high level witches? At level 4 your debuff witches will have evil eye and cackle for the debuff and an EL15 is 64 level 4 witches instead of the 16 level 8 witches.
16 at -4 yields a -64 to saves
64 at -2 yields a -128 to saves!
To get them all in there remember you can put 4 small creatures in one square(oooh -4 to AC and -4 to hit), these are halfing witches afterall!
Heck have them drink potions of reduce person and then you can fit 8 of them per square.
Or they drink a fly potion and buzz around like flies.
For teleporting them in think of how many reduce person flying halfling witches you can fit in a portable hole! But if you are attacking a demon lord maybe best to use a Gate to flood through with.
It really comes down to the question does the witches hexes stack?
The type is unnamed, if it was listed as morale, or luck, or anything they it would NOT stack, but since it is an unnamed bonus it should stack.
OK Devs! we need an official ruling on witches hexes and do they stack!
I personally think the hex should act just like spells, allowing SR.
The penalties are from different sources, as these are different witches, so they stack.They're considered the same source, ie. 'Evil Eye'.
Like if there was a particular spell or magic item that gave an untyped bonus, you couldn't use multiple uses of the spell (even by different casters) or item to stack effects.
Doesn't the same source/different source rules only really apply to spells, which evil eye is not?
Penalties in general stack with one another whereas bonuses do not.
"Same source" applies to all effect types. However if you were to somehow render the target shaken, then evil eye it, then hit it with bestow curse and touch of idiocy all the penalties from these various things would stack. Heck you could even evil eye it again against a different thing (say to hit instead of AC or save throws) and that would stick since it's not doing the same thing this time.
With flying low level witches you can fit a TON of them around the creature that are not adjacent.
Plus since you have a ton of low level witches you have a bunch that have the slumber hex, and when one is going to wear off the other one or two hit him with it, just in case the creature rolls a natural 20.
I drew a few quick layouts of creatures that are 30' from just a large sized creature, on the ground you can fit at least 28. double them up and you have 56. Ok a creature with greater cleave can kill 2 of them... oooh. Make them reduced person halflings and you can fit 112 within 30' of a large creature on just the ground, and yeah he can greater cleave 4 of them at a time... Add flying into the mix and the numbers sky rocket!
Level 4 witches are far more common the level 8, and cheaper to hire as well.
Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Since the hex is a penatly without a type it always stacks.
The argument about 'from the same source' refers to bonusses "Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source"
Should the "unless they are from the same source" also be appended to the previous line about penalties? Thereby fixing the multiple witch evil eye hex bomb.
Do you think multiple applications of slow should stack? Bane? Prayer?
Do you think multiple applications of slow should stack? Bane? Prayer?
Do I think they should stack? No
The rules state that they do stack though, only bonuses do not stack from the same source.
Though there is a HUGE difference between Slow, Bane and Prayer versus Evil Eye Hex. The first three are spells while evil eye hex is Super Natural. If you have SR or immune to spells the first three are easily dealt with.
The Evil Eye Hex says: no SR, works on everybody accept those immune to mind effecting, you get a save, but even if you do save you are pwned for one round. So no matter who or what you are you are taking the penalty for 1 round, oh wait cackle, so you take the penalty until you kill or silence the witch, or move out of her range.
A 4th level witch can make a god have a -2 to something! That should be something very very very rare, some how getting past SR and the god rolling a 1 on its save. Not with the witch the witch says no matter what you roll you take the -2 for 1 round plus as I cackle.
Being a super natural ability revs up its power level a lot! Make it a spell like ability and that helps some.
The best way to fix it would put the "unless they are from the same source" with the penatlties as well as the bonuses. Or remove it from bonus and add a line "Bonuses and penalties from the same source do not stack." With same source defined as same power, spell, ability, feat, etc.
I made the same mistake, the 1 round evil eye ends before the witchs turn.
Unless the witches turn goes as thus: standard action-evil eye hex, move action cackle.
Then on later rounds they just need to cackle sometime during their turn to extend the evil eye hex
And if you make all spell like, once has to think carefully, if and which hexes are avaible for quikened spell like ability.
How about a simple line added to the hex description that the hex is considered a spell for bypassing SR (using the character witch level only).
And if you make all spell like, once has to think carefully, if and which hexes are avaible for quikened spell like ability.How about a simple line added to the hex description that the hex is considered a spell for bypassing SR (using the character witch level only).
Because that would defeat the point of it being a supernatural ability?
Because that would defeat the point of it being a supernatural ability?And if you make all spell like, once has to think carefully, if and which hexes are avaible for quikened spell like ability.How about a simple line added to the hex description that the hex is considered a spell for bypassing SR (using the character witch level only).
Not really, since there is still no AoO and works in a silence area. Cackle does not state that the sound must be heard. A witch can "cackle madly as a move action" and still make no sound due to silence.
Oh that mades me think about a silence invisible witch that debuffs without making sounds invisible and can pwn enemy casters by walking hear them. All their hexes still work!Debuffing is equal to buffing. A bard is a party support buffing guy, and is a strong class when played correctly. A witch debuffing the BBEG causing him to miss gives the others more time to kill him.
Witches have offensive hexes: slumber, retribution, agony, waxen image, death curse, eternal slumber, forced reincarnation.
Those hexes are offensive in nature and can really rock a creatures world.
These are only the hexes, we are not even touching their spells.
Because that would defeat the point of it being a supernatural ability?And if you make all spell like, once has to think carefully, if and which hexes are avaible for quikened spell like ability.How about a simple line added to the hex description that the hex is considered a spell for bypassing SR (using the character witch level only).Not really, since there is still no AoO and works in a silence area. Cackle does not state that the sound must be heard. A witch can "cackle madly as a move action" and still make no sound due to silence.
Oh that mades me think about a silence invisible witch that debuffs without making sounds invisible and can pwn enemy casters by walking hear them. All their hexes still work!Debuffing is equal to buffing. A bard is a party support buffing guy, and is a strong class when played correctly. A witch debuffing the BBEG causing him to miss gives the others more time to kill him.
Witches have offensive hexes: slumber, retribution, agony, waxen image, death curse, eternal slumber, forced reincarnation.
Those hexes are offensive in nature and can really rock a creatures world.These are only the hexes, we are not even touching their spells.
And... so what? Why should this mean that the abilities should have SR applied? (btw spell-like abilities work in silenced areas too) Should a debuffing fighter have to contend with SR? (dazzling display leaps to mind)
And... so what? Why should this mean that the abilities should have SR applied? (btw spell-like abilities work in silenced areas too) Should a debuffing fighter have to contend with SR? (dazzling display leaps to mind)
Well the debuffing fighter has a check to make, dazzling display is an intimidate check. A 4th level fighter is not going to intimidate a god. While a 4th level witch will give that god a -2 on round 1 then do it again for -4 on round 2, -6 on round 3, -8 on round 4, etc. as she cackles away debuffing the god.
It comes down to a low level witch can auto debuff a creature of any CR. A low level fighter cannot. There is no balance for the power, it is too opened ended. Higher level creatures normally have some SR, which helps balance the power. Yet since it is super natural the balancing factor is gone.
Look at the power this way, if you do not even have the failed save for rounds it could read like this:
"As a standard action apply a -2 to .... against a creature for 1 round, spend a move action to extend the effect 1 round. This effect is only stopped by creatures immune to mind effecting effects. This effect stacks with itself."
Wow that is a pretty awesome ability. That is what it is in a nut shell. This is an at will all day ability, rinse and repeat ability. I cannot think of any other at will ability that even comes close to how strong the evil eye and cackle combo is.
And... so what? Why should this mean that the abilities should have SR applied? (btw spell-like abilities work in silenced areas too) Should a debuffing fighter have to contend with SR? (dazzling display leaps to mind)Well the debuffing fighter has a check to make, dazzling display is an intimidate check. A 4th level fighter is not going to intimidate a god. While a 4th level witch will give that god a -2 on round 1 then do it again for -4 on round 2, -6 on round 3, -8 on round 4, etc. as she cackles away debuffing the god.
Honestly again: Same effect -- you can't keep debuffing the same thing. Also what is the god doing that the witch isn't gone yet after the first attempted action? You give up a standard and move action for a -2 (since your stacking can not happen) -- good luck getting away.
Honestly again: Same effect -- you can't keep debuffing the same thing. Also what is the god doing that the witch isn't gone yet after the first attempted action? You give up a standard and move action for a -2 (since your stacking can not happen) -- good luck getting away.
First off yes it does stack "although most penalties have no type and thus always stack". Scroll up to see the full text on that one.
Second it is not one witch but a bunch of little witches helping take down the god or .
Let's say there a kraken causing problems in Some bay. They hire Derick the Druid to take care of the problem. Derick is only a 9th level druid (CR 8) and the kraken a CR 18. no chance right?
Well Lucky for Derick he knows a coven of halfling witches. They are only 1st level(CR 1/2) and all know evil eye (it is a coven thing you know) but there are a lot of them.
So Derick piles on the halfling witches onto a ship and sets sail, knowing any boat that tries to leave the bay is attacked by the kraken.
He brings only 32 halfing witches with evil eye and they are all on the deck while Derick hides out in the crow’s nest. He gave orders that when the Kraken attacks they must wait for his whistle then run over and evil eye the Kraken. (he sets a ready action to once 12 halfling witches go over and evil eye the kraken to baleful polymorph it)
surprise round:
The Karken move actions up and attacks the boat... ROAR!!!! kills a halfling (down to 31) surprise round over.
round 1:
The Kraken wins init and kills 11 halflings! (down to 20)
Halfling delay till they here signal. Derkick goes last in round and whistles and readies his action.
Halflings surge forward looking at the Kraken with their evil eye, one dies from AoO (down to 19). 12 halfling evil eye it, and the kraken makes all his save he is at -24 to for saves for 1 round, Derick Baleful polymorphs the Kraken his DC is 17 the Kraken is at a -3 fort save so needs a nat 20 to not turn into a chicken.
Kraken rolls a nat 20!!! miracle it lives! other 9 evil eye (-18 till the start of their next turn)
round 2:
Kraken kills 11 halflings! (down to 8)
3 of the original 12 evil eye the kraken (fort at -24)
Derick hits him with is last baleful polymorph, again the Kraken needs a nat 20 to live.
Poof, chicken!
Should a single 9th level druid, and 32 1st level witches (EL 10) be able to take down a Kraken? Oh and make it an almost impossibility for the Kraken to survive?
Oh and the xp!!! woot Derick is going to level a few times and those last 8 halfling witches will have enough xp to level a bunch as well.
And the loot, at triple loot for a CR 18!!! Derick casts water breathing and they go loot hunting.
Honestly again: Same effect -- you can't keep debuffing the same thing. Also what is the god doing that the witch isn't gone yet after the first attempted action? You give up a standard and move action for a -2 (since your stacking can not happen) -- good luck getting away.
+1.
If you look at Combining Magic Effects on pg 208, I think it makes it pretty clear.
Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.
I think it is pretty clear that this text implies both spells and magical effects, and not just spells only. Unless you'd like the rules to read as a tax code, and be 1000's of pages long, you have to accept that not all verbiage is present in every sentence.
I don't think it is rational to read it as only the subset of magical effects that are spells are subject to stacking rules, since clearly this section is meant to discuss magical effects in general. The label is "Stacking Effects", and I think the intention of the reference to spell is shorthand for "spell or magical effect".
...+1.
If you look at Combining Magic Effects on pg 208, I think it makes it pretty clear.
Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.
I think it is pretty clear that this text implies both spells and magical effects, and not just spells only. Unless you'd like the rules to read as a tax code, and be 1000's of pages long, you have to accept that not all verbiage is present in every sentence.
I don't think it is rational to read it as only the subset of magical effects that are spells are subject to stacking rules, since clearly this section is meant to discuss magical effects in general. The label is "Stacking Effects", and I think the intention of the reference to spell is shorthand for "spell or magical effect".
As you clearly point out it says spells. Is the intent spells and other magical effects? maybe, but that is not the letter of the rules. As it stand currently super natural abilities are NOT spells, and therefore NOT constrainted byt he rule that states spells do not stack with themselves.
It is a hole in the rules accidently brought in by the APG. It just needs to be plugged.
The ability can get pretty nasty with the ability to stack, but let's not get carried away. There are plenty of abilities that can get rediculous if carried too far.
How about this:
In a kindom of 50,000+ people send out teachers. They will teach a total of 20,000 people to be level 1 wizards. Then gather them togather and have a high level wizard cast a gate spell to open right beside some demon lord or other bad guy you want dead. Have every caster in range cast magic missle. A natural 20 will auto-succeed on the SR check (unless I missed a change to that). So 1 out of every 20 spells will get through. By the time they'll all cast at least 1 magic missle that's 1,000 missled for 1d4+1 or an average damage of 3,500 damage.
Or let's go more simply. Don't teach them anything, but arm 20,000 people with long bows. Get enough wizards to cast magic weapon 400 times, each time making 50 arrows into +1 arrows. Since it's a first level spell that shouldn't be too hard. Get them all togather and cast Gate and place it right beside anything you want to kill that doesn't have DR/Epic. Each person fires 1 arrow through the gate. As above with a nat 20 being an auto-hit that's an average of 1000 hits. If I'm correctly remembering the long bow as being a d10 weapon that's 1000d10+1000 or an average damage of 6,500 damage.
The witch takes fewer people but with enough firepower just about anything will go down.
To address a few points at the OP.
1) I know it was mentioned in another thread that the Slumber ability is a compultion effect and doesn't work on anything immune to mind affect abilities (like the Terrasque).
2) Any demon lord stupid enough to not have a forbidance on his home to at LEAST keep out the other teleporting demon lords deserves what teleporting fate befalls him.
3) All of these plans for instakilling Krakens, Gods and Terrasques are guaranteed suicide for many of those involved. I know most witches I play would not be keen on volunteering.
As you clearly point out it says spells. Is the intent spells and other magical effects? maybe, but that is not the letter of the rules. As it stand currently super natural abilities are NOT spells, and therefore NOT constrainted byt he rule that states spells do not stack with themselves.
It is a hole in the rules accidently brought in by the APG. It just needs to be plugged.
I don't think Paizo will spend the energy to plug "holes" like this. It would cause a big bloat in the size of the books, and not really add much value aside from ending arguments about how to parse sentences. I think it is important to look at the context of individual statements when interpreting them to define their meaning. It is impractical to make all sentences hold up standalone, I'm sure.
At some point, it is up to the DM to arbitrate what the rules mean. If he decides it makes for a better game that a hundred witches can nerf the tarrasque, so be it. But in my opinion, reading the full context of the "Combining Magical Effects" section is that intention of the designers is that the "Stacking Effects" clause applies to all forms of magical effects. I can't think of a game design reason why it should only apply to one subset and not another.
One more followup, I also believe the "Same Effect with Differing Results" clause applies to the Evil Eye hex. In this case, if you used Evil Eye first to lower AC by 2, and then used Evil Eye next round to lower saves by 2, the second application would supersede the first, and the -2 penalty to AC would no longer apply.
That seems much more in line with a first level class ability.
...+1.
If you look at Combining Magic Effects on pg 208, I think it makes it pretty clear.
Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.
I think it is pretty clear that this text implies both spells and magical effects, and not just spells only. Unless you'd like the rules to read as a tax code, and be 1000's of pages long, you have to accept that not all verbiage is present in every sentence.
I don't think it is rational to read it as only the subset of magical effects that are spells are subject to stacking rules, since clearly this section is meant to discuss magical effects in general. The label is "Stacking Effects", and I think the intention of the reference to spell is shorthand for "spell or magical effect".
As you clearly point out it says spells. Is the intent spells and other magical effects? maybe, but that is not the letter of the rules. As it stand currently super natural abilities are NOT spells, and therefore NOT constrainted byt he rule that states spells do not stack with themselves.
It is a hole in the rules accidently brought in by the APG. It just needs to be plugged.
It says spells or magical affects in the core rules. Supernatural affects are magical therefore they follow the same stacking/non stacking rules. Since the intent is clear there is no need to plug anything. There are a lot of things than can be misread to get around the intent if the player wants to bad enough. I don't want a book written in legalese however. If you need an example I will go to my favorite. ---> Show me where the dead condition says I can't take actions. Now I am sure we all know dead characters should be out of the game.
Dead: The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
See what I mean? The only real bad result is that I get start to decay. It does not even say I become a corpse which would at least open the argument that I am an object, and objects are not PC's.
One more followup, I also believe the "Same Effect with Differing Results" clause applies to the Evil Eye hex. In this case, if you used Evil Eye first to lower AC by 2, and then used Evil Eye next round to lower saves by 2, the second application would supersede the first, and the -2 penalty to AC would no longer apply.
That seems much more in line with a first level class ability.
You can use all the penalties from one evil eye in succession. This was clarified by Mr.Reynolds. In other words a with could hit you with a penalty to attack, AC, and saves on subsequent rounds, and they would all apply. I thought only one penalty applied at first also until I saw the ruling. It just makes the witch more of a target though. :)
You can use all the penalties from one evil eye in succession. This was clarified by Mr.Reynolds. In other words a with could hit you with a penalty to attack, AC, and saves on subsequent rounds, and they would all apply. I thought only one penalty applied at first also until I saw the ruling. It just makes the witch more of a target though. :)
Got it. Looking back at the 3.5 PHB, the example they gave for "Same Effect with Differing Results" was Polymorph, which makes sense to me.
Do you think multiple applications of slow should stack? Bane? Prayer?
Slow specifies that it doesn't stack; if multiple party members cast prayer, the luck bonus wouldn't stack, and I'd be hesitant to let the penalty through (I'd probably say it's a luck penalty, but it's not really specified); bane, as long as different people cast it, I guess would work.
The thing that I think people are missing here is that the game is designed with a smaller party in mind than, say, 36, 150, or even 1,000 people. Yeah, leadership can bring allies into higher numbers, but the thing to remember is that at high levels you've probably already figured out your own way to take care of nearly all enemies anyhow. The fact that the witch has an option like this doesn't break the game. Any high-level caster can figure out something like this that ends foes quickly; it's just a matter of how.
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I'd like to know where we're getting all these witches, and how we're convincing them to work together, some of them planning from the start on sacrificing themselves to give the rest a chance to maybe stop this foul beast. I mean, I thought the witch class was supposed to be a rare sight in Golarion.
The fix in this case would be less wording actually
Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one. Bonuses and penalties without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
The reason I am so concerned about this rule, is because if it does not get addressed I am going to use it.
I run The Cheese Grinder tournament and this is something that can take down a high level part with ease. So if it stays good for the tournament. If it gets fixed, then yeah for the rules.
When you run something that is by the book, the players will use the rules to the letter against the DM, well the DM needs to know those as well to use against the players.
In normal home fun play the DM can change the rules and make judgement calls at anytime. When you run something like Pathfinder Society games or a tournament that has a lot of different people that rules must be followed as written. Rules can be posted ahead of time to clear up the grey areas, as is done with Pathfinder Society.
My goal is for a better Pathfinder rule set. Not some crazy over lawyered 20,000 page document like the US tax code.
Oh my I like the legal hiccup on the dead state. <ROFL>
Only problem is to get to dead one must first go through negative hit points which the rules state you are unconcious, so therefore no movement.
Hmmm watch out do not kill that guy he will instantly become undead and attack again.
hahahahaha
Oh my I like the legal hiccup on the dead state. <ROFL>
Only problem is to get to dead one must first go through negative hit points which the rules state you are unconcious, so therefore no movement.
Hmmm watch out do not kill that guy he will instantly become undead and attack again.
hahahahaha
Being unconscious and being undead are two different conditions, and there are ways to be below 0 HP and still fight. Diehard combined with the half-orc's ferocity means keep fighting so if you go directly to dead and bypass being unconscious......
I think the general concensus is if stacking is permitted, which is doesnt appear so. then a gang of witches is awesome.
But put a first level fighter onto a first level witch and the only thing broken will be that witch!
In fact, put a witch up against most things mono-a-mono and i think youll see their weakness with a sole flimsy minor debuff. it all balances out really.
I just want to see a witch run for her life while cackling but apparently its not going to happen! But then its twice as funny to see a scared witch torn between laughing and running. i hope you can role play!!
As for overly stacking the same hex. most text can be read many ways, just think through whats logic and fair or inline with other classes and thats probably what it was meant to be.
Aside from the stacking issues:
Tarrasque is immune to mind-affecting effects, and Evil Eye is a mind-affecting effect.
The last witch to act uses slumber... 20 city guards ... start using coupe de grace each round.
Even if it lands, the slumber hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage, so after the first coup-de-grace, it's awake, and cannot be the target of the Slumber hex again for 1 day.
The reason I am so concerned about this rule, is because if it does not get addressed I am going to use it.
...
My goal is for a better Pathfinder rule set. Not some crazy over lawyered 20,000 page document like the US tax code.
Fair enough. Looks like the "Combine Magical Effects" section was taken directly from the 3.5 SRD, for what it's worth.
If you want to throw another thing at a party that is as legal as stacking Evil Eye hexes, might I suggest an "Aura of Despair" kill zone set up by a handful of wizards? No save, no SR, not mind effecting.
Aura of Despair (Su): At 8th level, you can emit a 30-foot aura of despair for a number of rounds per day equal to your wizard level. Enemies within this aura take a –2 penalty on ability checks, attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and skill checks.
If you have 4-5 of these guys around the edge of a 30' zone, that will make for a real bad day for anyone trapped in there. Even five 8th level vanilla wizards (CR 11 or 12 encounter) with 18 Ints lobbing in Phantasmal Killer spells at -10 to save should give you a TPK in a few rounds against most parties of four 10th level characters, I'd think. Give them higher ints and spell focus feats if it needs to be more "challenging". :-).