What are the general guidlines for tracking spell components? Currently my DM expects me to track every componet needed for every spell. I know this is by RAW, but what a PITA. (My wizard knows ALOT of spells.).
What are the general guidlines for tracking spell components? Currently my DM expects me to track every componet needed for every spell. I know this is by RAW, but what a PITA. (My wizard knows ALOT of spells.).
RAW is actually that you track only components costing 1 gp or more. The rest are covered by the "Spell component pouch" which is infinite in capacity for all current and future spells.
Material (M): A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.
If he persists in forcing you to track mundane components, just take the Eschew Materials feat and be done with.
What are the general guidlines for tracking spell components? Currently my DM expects me to track every componet needed for every spell. I know this is by RAW, but what a PITA. (My wizard knows ALOT of spells.).RAW is actually that you track only components costing 1 gp or more. The rest are covered by the "Spell component pouch" which is infinite in capacity for all current and future spells.
Material (M): A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.If he persists in forcing you to track mundane components, just take the Eschew Materials feat and be done with.
Yea he is being a bit of a dick over it. I hate to waste a feat, but couting hairs from a bull is NOT fun.
Yea he is being a bit of a dick over it. I hate to waste a feat, but couting hairs from a bull is NOT fun.
If the spell component pouch works differently in his game, then he is effectively ruling that Wizards have one fewer available feats than other classes, IMHO, since taking Eschew Materials is nearly mandatory. As long as he understands the effect of his ruling, then you have to accept it, or change games or classes.
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Yea he is being a bit of a dick over it. I hate to waste a feat, but couting hairs from a bull is NOT fun.
Casters have not had to track components since 2nd ed I believe... maybe I am mistaken but regardless you should simply set down with him and tell him that he is being unreasonable. If he doesn't come around send him here, we will straighten him out. :D
Taking Eschew Materials to overcome this is the implementation of an unnecessary and brutal feat tax.
Does he actually check your sheet?
If not a simple, "Yeah I got 24 left of that." Should handle it.
Otherwise start bugging him for prices in copper pieces for each part and spend every second of a session picking up every piece of mundane stuff you can find putting it into your spell component pouch. Make sure you make him tell you how much of each piece of spider web is in each corner, what spider it was made by, and if it's ever been in the sun.
Then grab yourself a copy of the alchemical components list and start using that to boost your spells while you are at it.
If the GM gives you all coincs be sure to have him tell you what kingdom minted them and in what year and who's face is on the coin.
Does he actually check your sheet?
If not a simple, "Yeah I got 24 left of that." Should handle it.
Otherwise start bugging him for prices in copper pieces for each part and spend every second of a session picking up every piece of mundane stuff you can find putting it into your spell component pouch. Make sure you make him tell you how much of each piece of spider web is in each corner, what spider it was made by, and if it's ever been in the sun.
Then grab yourself a copy of the alchemical components list and start using that to boost your spells while you are at it.
If the GM gives you all coincs be sure to have him tell you what kingdom minted them and in what year and who's face is on the coin.
@ the OP: This is the answer, and it is what I would do. I am sure you have spells you don't use, but just in case, just make an excel sheet so you can keep track. Once that sheet is saved on your pc the heavy lifting will be done. All you will have to do is annoy the DM. I would try to get 100 plus of each one. Don't him that up front. Just ask for prices. Most games wont last long enough for all those components to be used. I would also gather components for future spells. Even after you get more than what you need continue with the "detailed" behavior.
It's not impossible to track these components. It does require more legwork than you should need, but if you don't want to blow the feat, I'd suggest you basically make a list of stuff you want to buy when you go into town- bat guano, tiny colored dust, whatever. He'll presumably charge you a couple gold, and then that's that, and you have like 8 charges of the spells you never use and 20 of the ones that you do, and off you go.
Even back when wizards had to track this stuff in theory, I'd just say like, you have 30x uses of each spell. Then the wizard would just put a tick mark next to anything with a material component, and eventually when he went back to town he'd spend 6 hours and 3 gold and erase all the tick marks.
To this day I still don't allow the component pouch to *actually* be infinite, if the caster is somewhere where he can't replenish it but wants to cast 8 fireballs a day for 10 days, how much bat poo did he really stock? But it's effectively infinite.
Anyway, I'd just say take Eschew Material like everyone else recommends.
It is cheaper to get a hewards handy haversack and stock it with spell components. Feats are too rare to be wasting on something that should not have to be tracked anyway.
It is cheaper to get a hewards handy haversack and stock it with spell components. Feats are too rare to be wasting on something that should not have to be tracked anyway.That's a valid interpretation. Do recall that the spell component pouch isn't *really* infinite, so Eschew Materials really DOES provide SOME benefit. I rather like the feat. I just think that being bullied into it with threats of keeping a damned spreadsheet is asinine.
I think the bullying is why I am against it in this case. I have taken the feat myself, but it was more of a flavor thing, than the DM forcing me to do it.
I would probably ask him(the DM) to give me a list of of prices for the spell components, more to annoy him than anything else.
It should be pointed out that in 1st edition you were actually expected to do this accounting unless you obtained "Zagyg's Spell Component Case" from the 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana, which not only gave you spell components that you were out of but also gave you spell components with an actual monetary value which lasted just long enough for you to cast the spell.
If you don't want to blow a feat on Eschew Materials because your GM is wanting some 1st ed flavor, ask him if you can make the 1st ed "I don't want to deal with this boring mechanic" item, namely "Zagyg's Spell Component Case."
Obviously for Pathfinder line out the "Zagyg's" but beyond that it's a perfectly good item.
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The next time your group faces a Wizard BBEG, require the DM to show the wizard's component list.
Down to every bull's hair.
And every lump of bat guano.
It's a bit of a level hit, but you could also take a level of sorceror. Gives you a few 0 level spells you can cast infinitely, a couple first level spells, and eschew materials for free.
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It's a bit of a level hit, but you could also take a level of sorceror. Gives you a few 0 level spells you can cast infinitely, a couple first level spells, and eschew materials for free.The next time your group faces a Wizard BBEG, require the DM to show the wizard's component list.
Down to every bull's hair.
And every lump of bat guano.
Which is even worse of a penalty then using a damn feat. Sorry...but now you think the OP should instead of paying a feat tax pay a CL tax...yeah...no.
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Your spell componants pouch does cover you basic everyday functioning however if your GM wants to be a stickler use the Cost of Living rules in the Gamemastering chapter. You should occasionally repurchase your Spell componant pouch (probably every level or so) and you'll still need to track expensive material componants as per RAW.
An adventurer's primary source of income is treasure, and his primary purchases are tools and items he needs to continue adventuring—spell components, weapons, magic items, potions, and the like. Yet what about things like food? Rent? Taxes? Bribes? Idle purchases?
You can certainly handle these minor expenditures in detail during play, but tracking every time a PC pays for a room, buys water, or pays a gate tax can swiftly become obnoxious and tiresome. If you're not really into tracking these minor costs of living, you can choose to simply ignore these small payments. A more realistic and easier-to-use method is to have PCs pay a recurring cost of living tax. At the start of every game month, a PC must pay an amount of gold equal to the lifestyle bracket he wishes to live in—if he can't afford his desired bracket, he drops down to the first one he can afford.
Destitute (0 gp/month): The PC is homeless and lives in the wilderness or on the streets. A destitute character must track every purchase, and may need to resort to Survival checks or theft to feed himself.
Poor (3 gp/month): The PC lives in common rooms of taverns, with his parents, or in some other communal situation—this is the lifestyle of most untrained laborers and commoners. He need not track purchases of meals or taxes that cost 1 sp or less.
Average (10 gp/month): The PC lives in his own apartment, small house, or similar location—this is the lifestyle of most trained or skilled experts or warriors. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 1 gp or less from his home in 1d10 minutes, and need not track purchases of common meals or taxes that cost 1 gp or less.
Wealthy (100 gp/month): The PC has a sizable home or a nice suite of rooms in a fine inn. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 5 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes, and need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 10 gp.
Extravagant (1,000 gp/month): The PC lives in a mansion, castle, or other extravagant home—he might even own the building in question. This is the lifestyle of most aristocrats. He can secure any nonmagical
--A pinch of Vrock Salt
@ the OP: This is the answer, and it is what I would do. I am sure you have spells you don't use, but just in case, just make an excel sheet so you can keep track. Once that sheet is saved on your pc the heavy lifting will be done. All you will have to do is annoy the DM. I would try to get 100 plus of each one. Don't him that up front. Just ask for prices. Most games wont last long enough for all those components to be used. I would also gather components for future spells. Even after you get more than what you need continue with the "detailed" behavior.
IMHO, before a passive-aggressive approach to annoy the DM (and probably the rest of the group), you might want to pull him aside and better understand what he's trying to accomplish. Is he doing this for "realism"? Does he want to limit arcane magic? Is this a game where resource management will be very important (ie, no access to civilization for extended periods of time [ I'm looking at you, Serpent's Skull ] )?
If there's a higher motivation, and other classes will also suffer (ie, armor/weapons start to deteriorate in effectiveness due to not being able to properly repair/maintain them), then maybe that's okay. But, if he simply doesn't like the rules around the spell component pouch, that's a different story.
If he really feels that purchasing/finding/tracking/maintaining components on a per-spell basis improves the quality of game that he runs, that seems problematic. Some of the components are perishable (live spiders, live crickets, raw meat, green leaves, etc). Does he want to spend game time having you feed your spiders each morning, or tracking the shelf life of the raw meat you have on hand?
There is a tradeoff between "realism" and playability. By its very nature Fantasy Role Playing checks reality at the door. Intense bookkeeping of uninteresting aspects really doesn't enhance a game, IMHO, unless there is something larger driving it.
@ the OP: This is the answer, and it is what I would do. I am sure you have spells you don't use, but just in case, just make an excel sheet so you can keep track. Once that sheet is saved on your pc the heavy lifting will be done. All you will have to do is annoy the DM. I would try to get 100 plus of each one. Don't him that up front. Just ask for prices. Most games wont last long enough for all those components to be used. I would also gather components for future spells. Even after you get more than what you need continue with the "detailed" behavior.IMHO, before a passive-aggressive approach to annoy the DM (and probably the rest of the group), you might want to pull him aside and better understand what he's trying to accomplish. Is he doing this for "realism"? Does he want to limit arcane magic? Is this a game where resource management will be very important (ie, no access to civilization for extended periods of time [ I'm looking at you, Serpent's Skull ] )?
If there's a higher motivation, and other classes will also suffer (ie, armor/weapons start to deteriorate in effectiveness due to not being able to properly repair/maintain them), then maybe that's okay. But, if he simply doesn't like the rules around the spell component pouch, that's a different story.
If he really feels that purchasing/finding/tracking/maintaining components on a per-spell basis improves the quality of game that he runs, that seems problematic. Some of the components are perishable (live spiders, live crickets, raw meat, green leaves, etc). Does he want to spend game time having you feed your spiders each morning, or tracking the shelf life of the raw meat you have on hand?
There is a tradeoff between "realism" and playability. By its very nature Fantasy Role Playing checks reality at the door. Intense bookkeeping of uninteresting aspects really doesn't enhance a game, IMHO, unless there is something larger driving it.
It's also worth noting that the game designers assumed you WOULDN'T be tracking any component of a cost less than 1gp. If they'd made the assumption your DM is making when designing the game, they'd likely have changed the components of many spells to exclude things like raw meat and live spiders.
In short, the specifics of any component of less than 1 gp value is presumed by the game design to be pure fluff. It doesn't matter what it is, only that you have your component pouch at hand. If it were intended to operate at the level of granularity your DM is suggesting, the entire system of what components are necessary for which spells would likely follow entirely different lines.
It's also worth noting that the game designers assumed you WOULDN'T be tracking any component of a cost less than 1gp. If they'd made the assumption your DM is making when designing the game, they'd likely have changed the components of many spells to exclude things like raw meat and live spiders.
In short, the specifics of any component of less than 1 gp value is presumed by the game design to be pure fluff. It doesn't matter what it is, only that you have your component pouch at hand. If it were intended to operate at the level of granularity your DM is suggesting, the entire system of what components are necessary for which spells would likely follow entirely different lines.
+1.
Maybe you could suggest to your DM that all material components are generic residuum, which you get from disenchanting magic items. And wizards have at-will, per encounter, and daily powers. And ...
:-).
What are the general guidlines for tracking spell components? Currently my DM expects me to track every componet needed for every spell. I know this is by RAW, but what a PITA. (My wizard knows ALOT of spells.).I am a dm that requires component tracking and bans eschew materials. I think it adds a very fun dynamic, a difficulty and challenge to the game. I did play 1st ed and 2nd ed and I will admit my largest issue with pathfinder and 3.5 is how easy it is. I like a challenging game, i have no newbie players and dont allow them in my game. I dont even give the two spells when they level automatically, they have to spend out of charecter time researching. This is the price you pay for being nigh unkillable and god amongst men at later levels.
Suck it up
Ahh... how cute! It's a dinosaur!
BTW, you might have missed the memo -- but wizards are far from "nigh unkillable and god amonst men" at any level.
What are the general guidlines for tracking spell components? Currently my DM expects me to track every componet needed for every spell. I know this is by RAW, but what a PITA. (My wizard knows ALOT of spells.).I am a dm that requires component tracking and bans eschew materials. I think it adds a very fun dynamic, a difficulty and challenge to the game. I did play 1st ed and 2nd ed and I will admit my largest issue with pathfinder and 3.5 is how easy it is. I like a challenging game, i have no newbie players and dont allow them in my game. I dont even give the two spells when they level automatically, they have to spend out of charecter time researching. This is the price you pay for being nigh unkillable and god amongst men at later levels.
Suck it up
So did you type up a list of all spell components and how much each one costs? Do you track all of the spell components for NPC wizards?
If you aren't willing to put in the time, it is unreasonable to expect your players to.
I was going to suggest this to the OP as well. Have the DM type up the list of all spell components and prices and then you can go about buying them for your wizard. He can't expect you to buy something that isn't listed in the rules anywhere.
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The only real legwork this requires is which spells you have that actually require material components. Once you've compiled that (best done on the SRD!) you have to go to town and do what cfalcon recommended. Submit the list of materials you need and get a dozen or so of each.
It's really going to be a pain the first time, but after that it's not bad. As a wizard, you're already doing plenty of paperwork. Tracking spell components really isn't all that much more.
What are the general guidlines for tracking spell components? Currently my DM expects me to track every componet needed for every spell. I know this is by RAW, but what a PITA. (My wizard knows ALOT of spells.).I am a dm that requires component tracking and bans eschew materials. I think it adds a very fun dynamic, a difficulty and challenge to the game. I did play 1st ed and 2nd ed and I will admit my largest issue with pathfinder and 3.5 is how easy it is. I like a challenging game, i have no newbie players and dont allow them in my game. I dont even give the two spells when they level automatically, they have to spend out of charecter time researching. This is the price you pay for being nigh unkillable and god amongst men at later levels.
Suck it up
I could respond to that "suck it up" with an equal insult, but I will be the mature one.
I also usually track components as a DM and as a player, adding that level of logistical challenge is fun for me. We also keep track of food and water usage in the wild, and as well as coming up with a watch schedule, there's a chores schedule as well (like digging latrines, gathering firewood, scouting the area, all the usual camping fare). Grounding the characters in realistic responsibilities increases our feeling connected to the characters.
I am a dm that requires component tracking and bans eschew materials. I think it adds a very fun dynamic, a difficulty and challenge to the game. I did play 1st ed and 2nd ed and I will admit my largest issue with pathfinder and 3.5 is how easy it is. I like a challenging game, i have no newbie players and dont allow them in my game. I dont even give the two spells when they level automatically, they have to spend out of charecter time researching. This is the price you pay for being nigh unkillable and god amongst men at later levels.
Suck it up
Not to be contrite, but do you have equivalent constraints for the class abilities of the other classes to balance things out, or are you mostly focused on restricting arcane magic? For example, in the "good old days", spells above 5th level for clerics were granted by the deity on a case by case basis, and may involve sacrifices to receive those spells...
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What are the general guidlines for tracking spell components? Currently my DM expects me to track every componet needed for every spell. I know this is by RAW, but what a PITA. (My wizard knows ALOT of spells.).I am a dm that requires component tracking and bans eschew materials. I think it adds a very fun dynamic, a difficulty and challenge to the game. I did play 1st ed and 2nd ed and I will admit my largest issue with pathfinder and 3.5 is how easy it is. I like a challenging game, i have no newbie players and dont allow them in my game. I dont even give the two spells when they level automatically, they have to spend out of charecter time researching. This is the price you pay for being nigh unkillable and god amongst men at later levels.
Suck it up
So you as a DM do this for ALL npc casters then? If not then no the player should not suck it up. I did this in 1st and a bit through 2nd ed before I as a DM went this sucks monkey balls and just handwaved non expensive materials like 3.x did because it made my job as a DM take WAY too long. And when I play in YOUR game, I'll be sure you are ticking those materials away when your casters cast...with endless questions of how to collect materials and loot them and yeah waste a good 2/3 of the game in needless accounting and paperwork...also known as work in real life...the thing we are actively trying to avoid.
While I think keeping track of hairs and balls of bat guano is a little much, some spells have material components that don't have a cost that should be tracked. The "Form of the Dragon" line of spells require dragon scales, but no cost is given. IMHO something like this should not be a freebee. If you kill a dragon, I'd allow you to harvest a lifetime supply of scales of that color, but something like this should not be included in the free "I've got everything" pouch. With time and effort, you might be able to trade with other casters for colors you don't have, but it should be work, not a given.
Wizards are smart, and as a class have some foresight. When you level up in the middle of nowhere and happen to have the glass beads you need for the spell you just learned, I can handwave that as part of the background research assumed in leveling up. If the spell component pouch really had everything for every spell, you would need a wagon to drag the thing around on. It is an abstraction to speed up game play.
I require tracking, but the access to refined components is such that prepackaged units are common. Alchemists make their own. Operating magic houses and guilds have bulkier but cheaper components. Components for individual spells can be bought, as can those for specific schools, all graded by level. Specialist wizards can cast their school(s) without components. A player even clued out a BBEG's sidekick was an evoker by tossing her bedroom. Looting the bodies of Wizards becomes a valid activity. I also use the metamagic components from HpertextD20.
What are the general guidlines for tracking spell components? Currently my DM expects me to track every componet needed for every spell. I know this is by RAW, but what a PITA. (My wizard knows ALOT of spells.).
Any chance your DM might let you set aside X number of Gold Pieces as Misc. Spell Components and let it include any low cost mundane components that don't exceed 25% of the value of GP that you've set aside?
Then, just subtract off the GP value as it's used and replenish at story appropriate moments.
What are the general guidlines for tracking spell components? Currently my DM expects me to track every componet needed for every spell. I know this is by RAW, but what a PITA. (My wizard knows ALOT of spells.).I am a dm that requires component tracking and bans eschew materials. I think it adds a very fun dynamic, a difficulty and challenge to the game. I did play 1st ed and 2nd ed and I will admit my largest issue with pathfinder and 3.5 is how easy it is. I like a challenging game, i have no newbie players and dont allow them in my game. I dont even give the two spells when they level automatically, they have to spend out of charecter time researching. This is the price you pay for being nigh unkillable and god amongst men at later levels.
Suck it up
Why bother. Fighter, rogues, or even monks sound like a more fun class than caster in your world long run. Players want to have fun adventuring, exploring, and fighting monsters. Not bookkeeping.
I could respond to that "suck it up" with an equal insult, but I will be the mature one.What are the general guidlines for tracking spell components? Currently my DM expects me to track every componet needed for every spell. I know this is by RAW, but what a PITA. (My wizard knows ALOT of spells.).I am a dm that requires component tracking and bans eschew materials. I think it adds a very fun dynamic, a difficulty and challenge to the game. I did play 1st ed and 2nd ed and I will admit my largest issue with pathfinder and 3.5 is how easy it is. I like a challenging game, i have no newbie players and dont allow them in my game. I dont even give the two spells when they level automatically, they have to spend out of charecter time researching. This is the price you pay for being nigh unkillable and god amongst men at later levels.
Suck it up
Now that I have calmed down I will ask is the game to easy from a player PoV, and if so why are you having difficulty challenging them? If you don't have trouble challenging them then why force the additional bookkeeping which does not really make casters harder to play, only more annoying. Annoying is annoying, not necessarily difficult.
We do it because we find it interesting, and not annoying, in general. In the few cases where a player has disagreed but does want to try out a caster, we stop using that house rule, because fun > rules. In general I've found that players that don't like bookkeeping don't like playing prepared casters anyways, and players that like bookkeeping enjoy extra bookkeeping.
We do it because we find it interesting, and not annoying, in general. In the few cases where a player has disagreed but does want to try out a caster, we stop using that house rule, because fun > rules. In general I've found that players that don't like bookkeeping don't like playing prepared casters anyways, and players that like bookkeeping enjoy extra bookkeeping.
I guess my dislike of bookkeeping is why I won't play a druid again, even though I enjoyed the class, or maybe it was because I was supposed to be taking a break from DM'ing and chose the wrong class to break with. In any event I enjoy the realism that bookkeeping brings to an extent, and I think tracking every component is beyond how far I want to go, but I guess I can see how others would like it.
As an aside I don't track food and water either as long as someone in the party has survival. I do require arrows to be tracked though.
In any of the games I have ever played, spells have been such a hassle to keep track of (especially with 6+ players on average, most of which had some spell casting) that we all pretty much ignore materials for spellcasting. At lower levels, anyway. Spells that require crushing expensive gems and the like (Identify sucks to pay for at low levels) we tend to be more aware of, but things like hair and dirt and poo...
Seriously?
My fanciful dandy of an elf wizard is NOT going to dirty his hands picking up any poo. The druid, maybe. Wizard, no.
Of course, in our games, everyone does magic differently. One of my players has a druid who makes cats cradles and such as somatic components. Her deity is based on the Grandmother Spider from some Native American legend (I forget the origin). With fun fluff like that, who cares if she had the blackberry preserves and chainsaw oil?
We do it because we find it interesting, and not annoying, in general. In the few cases where a player has disagreed but does want to try out a caster, we stop using that house rule, because fun > rules. In general I've found that players that don't like bookkeeping don't like playing prepared casters anyways, and players that like bookkeeping enjoy extra bookkeeping.
As long as players enjoy it, more power to you. If components are readily available, and frequent resupplying isn't a problem, things probably go just fine.
My biggest concern with tracking material component quantities on a per-spell basis is that sometimes you simply can't get back to civilization for several levels (on a ship or extended wilderness adventure, etc). When that happens, the arcane caster suffers disproportionately. For example, a 3rd level wizard will eventually run out of bull hairs to power Bull's Strength, which would be difficult to come by on the ocean. However, the 3rd level cleric can cast the same spell indefinitely, without any worries. Not real sure why wizards should be limited when clerics are not.
If tracking components leads to constraining wizards, the class is getting the short end of the stick. If tracking components doesn't lead to constraining wizards, then why track them to begin with?
Your spell componants pouch does cover you basic everyday functioning however if your GM wants to be a stickler use the Cost of Living rules in the Gamemastering chapter. You should occasionally repurchase your Spell componant pouch (probably every level or so) and you'll still need to track expensive material componants as per RAW.
** spoiler omitted **...
We have to recharge ours every time we are back in town from an extended quest. Cost to recharge = new pouch. Works well for us.