You can (if necessary) twice-widen Invisibility Purge. :)
Depth-charging works fine. Fire Storm does not have to start on the ground...
Certain critters won't *care* at all, especially with a few feats. Opposing casters that figure out what square the Wizard is in - that have True Strike - can frag him willy nilly.
After all, Invisibility does not make you any quieter, so the Stealth bonus does nothing to muffle the Verbal spell components. Base DC of 0 increased to 20 is likely well within the expected Perception parameters...
Even if circumstantial penalties increase that DC, it remains "doable" at 15th+level encounters. Just sayin'
It requires a 15th level character (16th for Sorcerers) to use one of his few 8th level spells per day, and it only works for 15 rounds at a time thanks to greater invisibility's rounds per level duration. Furthermore, there are plenty of ways to detect hidden and invisible creatures taking hostile actions against you by 15th+ level.
I don't see it as being particularly broken, although I do question why they changed mind blank to protect against see invisibility when one of the design goals of Pathfinder was to reduce immunities gained via spells.
Good point on the sniping thing. I was aiming the widen invisibility purge tactic at the OP scenario addressing other groups of adventurer types. As in, I think the intent is for the 15th+ level Wizard in question to nuke the other group from orbit/ambush.
It should be interesting to hear a report on how that ambush goes down.
I can see a nasty pairing on the opposition though: Wiz (arcane bond) with a druid using Wild Shape to pretend to be the familiar.
A few well-placed illusions (when getting ambushed at range) can by the targets some time potentially ...
I think it will be a TPK, cause as i mentioned, widen invisibility purge is not something 99% of clerics got - remove line of spells, yes, dispel yes, invisibility purge - maybe, but overall wizards are better at it (see invis, gliterdust), Widen Invisibility Purge ? Never.
As for illusions, caster would 1) need to be far enough so other guy with Spellcraft can't hear chanting; 2) need to be hidden as well so other guy doesn't see hands flapping around.
Other than that - not that mighty in Illusion sub-school, but to my knowledge Silent Image is only 1 worth having (need to be tested before Will save is allowed).
And don't get me wrong, but against this combo, that isn't opposition, thats just 2 spell casters in same 5 feet square.
It requires a 15th level character (16th for Sorcerers) to use one of his few 8th level spells per day, and it only works for 15 rounds at a time thanks to greater invisibility's rounds per level duration. Furthermore, there are plenty of ways to detect hidden and invisible creatures taking hostile actions against you by 15th+ level.
I don't see it as being particularly broken, although I do question why they changed mind blank to protect against see invisibility when one of the design goals of Pathfinder was to reduce immunities gained via spells.
Mindblank is on for 24 hours, and yeah Improved Invis will only work for 15 rounds at a time...but how many combats do you think will last for more than 15 rounds?
This translates into "near-undetectability at range" for as many Improved Invisibilities as you prepare a day. A Ring of Wizardry for 4th level slots makes this a complete non-issue.
It requires a 15th level character (16th for Sorcerers) to use one of his few 8th level spells per day, and it only works for 15 rounds at a time thanks to greater invisibility's rounds per level duration. Furthermore, there are plenty of ways to detect hidden and invisible creatures taking hostile actions against you by 15th+ level.
I don't see it as being particularly broken, although I do question why they changed mind blank to protect against see invisibility when one of the design goals of Pathfinder was to reduce immunities gained via spells.
Mindblank is on for 24 hours, and yeah Improved Invis will only work for 15 rounds at a time...but how many combats do you think will last for more than 15 rounds?
This translates into "near-undetectability at range" for as many Improved Invisibilities as you prepare a day. A Ring of Wizardry for 4th level slots makes this a complete non-issue.
The point of the 15 rounds is that it's not really something you can just throw on and assume it will be active when the fight starts unless you're already doing something like a scry-and-fry, which is an acknowledged "killer app". This means that you pretty much have to do it after the fight starts, which gives the PCs (or villains) at least a hint of what's up.
And since when do rings of wizardry give infinite spell slots?
It doesn't, but it gives enough to get you through any number of reasonable encounters a day.
And yes, you have to cast Improved Invis at the beginning of battle. Oh noes that is SO bad!!!! I mean, this means that the PCs now have ONE round to kill the wizard instead of ZERO rounds!!
It doesn't, but it gives enough to get you through any number of reasonable encounters a day.
And yes, you have to cast Improved Invis at the beginning of battle. Oh noes that is SO bad!!!! I mean, this means that the PCs now have ONE round to kill the wizard instead of ZERO rounds!!
Kill or disable or simply anticipate. Since most high level combats tend to last less than 5 rounds, 1 round is quite a lot. Not to mention that greater dispel magic is an extremely common and extremely obvious first round action against spellcasters, which will drop mind blank a high percentage of the time and thus remove this discussion from relevance.
And, once more, it's not like invisible wizard instantly means the party TPKs. If the wizard casts any kind of projectile attack, including fireball or the like, then the party knows where he is to a pretty narrow degree. If the wizard casts anything with a verbal component, then the party gets a very easy Perception check (at that level) to pinpoint his square. Invisibility also doesn't beat several high-level detection types such as blindsense, blindsight, tremorsense, and so on, and even lowly scent can find invisible creatures. Gaze attacks still work. Antimagic fields still work. Spells with large areas of effect still work unless you're playing on Glass Marble World.
Etc etc.
You could also put a roof on the fight. Throw up a Force Wall, deal with the ground pounders, then go after the fly boy. If he hasn't run away to fetch more lackeys.
Greater Invis only last rounds per levels. 2 minutes, assuming caster level 20, is not really all that great for an almost epic level caster to be invisible.20 isn't epic, and this is possible starting at level 15, or before if you are willing to cough up the gold for a Mind Blank scroll. I'm not a big believer in magic item shops in all games, but it's a pretty sparse campaign if you can't grab an 8th level scroll with your contacts and wealth by about 11th level.
You can even throw a bag of flour on his. There is way to dispel that. That dispel magic might also dispel the mind blank and greater invisibility. You don't get to choose what gets dispelled.A bag of flour becomes something he's wearing, and is then invisible, that's something out of a movie. Invisibility doesn't just effect the stuff you are wearing when you cast it. Note that if you apply dust to someone, like powder, it reveals them for just that turn- that's why. Glitterdust works because the motes emit light.
Yes, the dispel magic could also hit the wrong things too, but that's a risk you actually can take- you likely have another greater invis and it isn't doing anything, after all. In any event, it's a very generically good combo and it wildly buffs invisible tactics by actually hunting down and eliminating the spells meant to counter invisibility- and it's not like there's some super sneaky spell here, this is Mind Blank, a staple spell you are probably casting for other good reasons.
Anyway, if you think it's fine, run with it. I think it's not good design, and I'll certainly play by the older spell / actual intent of Mind Blank.
1. I said almost epic.
2. As for flour:
From the PRD
If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away).
3. You might have another greater invis, but you might not have another mind blank. The other issue is that once I find you I will most like have the bad guys ready actions to shoot you when you cast to force a high concentration check. If I have flying enemies, and at high levels I probably will, they will be trying to enter melee with you before you disappear again. Another option is to cast glitterdust on you as soon as you are visible. Now a dispel magic is needed for the glitterdust, and you have to use another greater invis. If the caster(and his party) have to spend 2 spells just to counter a 2nd level spell, and a bag of flour I think they are losing the resource game.
It doesn't, but it gives enough to get you through any number of reasonable encounters a day.
And yes, you have to cast Improved Invis at the beginning of battle. Oh noes that is SO bad!!!! I mean, this means that the PCs now have ONE round to kill the wizard instead of ZERO rounds!!
If I spellcraft(and why not) a greater invis there is no reason why I can't can't counter it. Flying, and being invisible are low level tactics. I don't see why a high level opponent would not have counters. I understand an AP does not account for every tactic, but if it is a boss fight it should not be an issue. For regular fights I let the players have fun once in a while. Readying an action to cast glitterdust on where ever the perception check says the caster is casting from will negate greater invis.
If the 2nd caster in the group is using a spell to help the wizard, as opposed to debuff the bad guys that is another point for the bad guys. It is really inefficient.
And yes, you have to cast Improved Invis at the beginning of battle. Oh noes that is SO bad!!!! I mean, this means that the PCs now have ONE round to kill the wizard instead of ZERO rounds!!
That's what contingency is for. So really, it's still 0.
Ring of Counterspells is a dirt cheap way to beat Glitterdust, too, if you've got a setup that that (mostly) only beats.
And yes, you have to cast Improved Invis at the beginning of battle. Oh noes that is SO bad!!!! I mean, this means that the PCs now have ONE round to kill the wizard instead of ZERO rounds!!That's what contingency is for. So really, it's still 0.
Ring of Counterspells is a dirt cheap way to beat Glitterdust, too, if you've got a setup that that (mostly) only beats.
We don't know if the player has a ring of counterspell and if he gets one later all the DM has to do is give the bad guys two glitterdust either by having two casters, or by having a quickened glitter dust, followed by a normal one or vice versa. A lot of high level monsters also have dispel magic as an SLA. At that level being invisible is not that hard to overcome especially if you are prepared for it. The DM has seen it so now he should be able to deal with it.
The flour thing is interesting, and maybe new? The rules only apply it to objects, of course, not creatures, but you could rule it differently.
The point is though, that this thread is mostly full of "you have a flour-pult and ten pixies with readied actions waiting to listen to verbal components". Everyone in here with some crazy work-around based on a team of dudes who magically know EXACTLY how to beat the PC wizard who SPENDS HIS WHOLE LIFE UNDER MIND BLANK are just proving the OP's point about this combo being super powerful. And of course, the PCs would presumably have to worry about this too, maintaining their own flour-pult and contigent glitterdust cheerleaders to deal with the enemy lich. If you throw this 11th to 18th level wizard and his team against essentially any decent CR encounter, this is going to work aces. It's gonna work the hell out of a dragon with true sight as one of his spells if you allow Mind Blank to work as written. The very best cases you have involve the DM heavily metagaming his encounters or switching his world around to support the new version of Mind Blank as Hella Super Invis. If that's how you like to roll, then by all means sirs, roll like that! As for me, it sounds like not the game I want.
To me, the DM knowing about the PCs techniques in Land A versus Dragon Zanza shouldn't affect the PCs rolling into Land B versus Evil Moogle Snurgle, unless Evil Moogle Snurgle has some great method of figuring out exactly that. They certainly shouldn't matter when dealing with Random Encounter on the way.
Good catch on the flour thing. I did not notice it was for objects.
The ways to beat the combo are not that ingenious, so at that level I don't see it as that strong. It takes glitterdust or faerie fire, 2 low level spells to knock it out. The only recourse is to use dispel magic. Check my post on resource usage again to see what I mean.No metagaming is needed. All it requires is a bad guy not silly enough to fight to the death, report the findings to the boss, and the next baddies are prepared. Another thing is that, as I stated before, high level monsters should be able to handle invisible and flying creatures since both are low level options.
Let us say the caster is level 16.
CR 16 monster list:black dragon (ancient), brass dragon (ancient), horned devil, planetar
The dragon is a spell caster. He could easily have the spells to stop it. He also has blindsense.
Brass Dragon-see above
Horned Devil-Ok so we have a loser here
planetar-cast spells so not an issue.
Note that all these guys are easy encounters for a 16th level party, and only one fails to deliver, but he can just teleport away until he finds a way to deal with the issue.
Good catch on the flour thing. I did not notice it was for objects.
The ways to beat the combo are not that ingenious, so at that level I don't see it as that strong. It takes glitterdust or faerie fire, 2 low level spells to knock it out. The only recourse is to use dispel magic. Check my post on resource usage again to see what I mean.
No metagaming is needed. All it requires is a bad guy not silly enough to fight to the death, report...
Man ... again, all of your tactics are built around monsters knowing that 1) Wizard got Mind Blank casted without ever using Detect Magic, so he just throws Dispel Magic randomly.
2) That Wizard will certainly go Invi's, so enemies throw glitterdust (and as you said, its a low level tactic so i am presuming not many monsters no matter how smart they are, aren't expecting it)As for monster running away - well if he doesn't have teleport or something like that, chances are he won't be getting away. If we are talking a monster without true seeing, see invisibility, etc. he will report only that Wizard casted Greater Invi's on himself, otherwise he will mention that he couldn't see him with his true seeing, etc.
Now thats an action economy stacked against monster.
Funny fun fun, flour on floor - it sounds awesome, but it craps itself and never changes diapers - its not even awesome against melee based invisibility chars - you got 8 squares total around a character - meaning 12,5% to hit the right square , for ranged ? Even less, mostly cause it targets a 5 feet square and range increment is 20 feet (maybe even less)
Blindsense is one ability that works. Now how many monsters have blindsense or blindsight out of the Monster Manual? What percentage of them can really threaten the wizard? I mean, when the DM must construct his encounters based on one combo like that, something is wrong.
We don't know if the player has a ring of counterspell and if he gets one later all the DM has to do is give the bad guys two glitterdust either by having two casters, or by having a quickened glitter dust, followed by a normal one or vice versa. A lot of high level monsters also have dispel magic as an SLA. At that level being invisible is not that hard to overcome especially if you are prepared for it. The DM has seen it so now he should be able to deal with it.
We don't know he has one, but if a 15th level wizard doesn't have or can't get or can't make a dirt-cheap 4k gp ring, he has bigger problems than being seen.
And, hell, he can wear two of the things. So now you're looking for three glitterdusts, and if he's really obnoxious he'll have quickened glitterdust prep'd to refill the rings as he gets nailed with dusts.
All in all mind blank + improved invis isn't completely unbeatable, but it's a lot closer than it should be.
The combination is only "unbeatable" in relation to direct attacks in many circumstances. Terrain (sandy floor/desert) and weather (wind, meet sand - sandstorm, meet no longer effectively invisible wizard) are other factors to consider. True Strike + lucky guess/other ability to know precise square = invisibility ignored regardless of mind blank - and able to crit/sneak attack to go with it. True Strike does not gather information - it provides it to the caster of the spell.
Also, more than one ring of counterspells is unlikely unless the wizard is so foolish as to rely on being able to raise invisibility as his sole means of defense. At 15th+ level, it seems rather likely that one of the two (or three, potentially) ring slots is comfortably occupied by a +3 to +5 ring of protection.
And if you're wearing rings of counterspells, you're *not* wearing rings of wizardry, which are by far the greater asset.
True Strike + lucky guess/other ability to know precise square = invisibility ignored regardless of mind blank - and able to crit/sneak attack to go with it. True Strike does not gather information - it provides it to the caster of the spell.
I'm just not sure how you're going to realistically be able to guess the precise square when I'm launching medium and long range spells away from 250+ feet away.
Also, more than one ring of counterspells is unlikely unless the wizard is so foolish as to rely on being able to raise invisibility as his sole means of defense. At 15th+ level, it seems rather likely that one of the two (or three, potentially) ring slots is comfortably occupied by a +3 to +5 ring of protection.
For permanent gear, sure.
For pulling the super invis gambit? I'd swap if I thought my enemies might have glitterdust. I don't need a deflection bonus if you have no realistic way to target me.
And if you're wearing rings of counterspells, you're *not* wearing rings of wizardry, which are by far the greater asset.
Cast the ring bonus spells, switch to the rings of counterspell.
CR 16 monster list:black dragon (ancient), brass dragon (ancient), horned devil, planetarThe dragon is a spell caster. He could easily have the spells to stop it. He also has blindsense.
Brass Dragon-see above
Horned Devil-Ok so we have a loser here
planetar-cast spells so not an issue.
Blindsense 60' is only of so much use against an invisible opponent 200'+ away.
Let's also look at this the opposite way: would you want to encounter a level 15 wizard running this gambit as a group of 4 level 12 PCs?
CR 16 monster list:black dragon (ancient), brass dragon (ancient), horned devil, planetarThe dragon is a spell caster. He could easily have the spells to stop it. He also has blindsense.
Brass Dragon-see above
Horned Devil-Ok so we have a loser here
planetar-cast spells so not an issue.
Blindsense 60' is only of so much use against an invisible opponent 200'+ away.
Let's also look at this the opposite way: would you want to encounter a level 15 wizard running this gambit as a group of 4 level 12 PCs?
Nope, wouldn't want to meet this wizard as one of those PCs.
At least, not outside, where he's got line of effect. Indoors, different story probably.
True Strike + lucky guess/other ability to know precise square = invisibility ignored regardless of mind blank - and able to crit/sneak attack to go with it. True Strike does not gather information - it provides it to the caster of the spell.
I'm just not sure how you're going to realistically be able to guess the precise square when I'm launching medium and long range spells away from 250+ feet away.
Also, more than one ring of counterspells is unlikely unless the wizard is so foolish as to rely on being able to raise invisibility as his sole means of defense. At 15th+ level, it seems rather likely that one of the two (or three, potentially) ring slots is comfortably occupied by a +3 to +5 ring of protection.
For permanent gear, sure.
For pulling the super invis gambit? I'd swap if I thought my enemies might have glitterdust. I don't need a deflection bonus if you have no realistic way to target me.
Cast the ring bonus spells, switch to the rings of counterspell.
And if you're wearing rings of counterspells, you're *not* wearing rings of wizardry, which are by far the greater asset.
In order:
(a) I did say "lucky guess". And if you're bombarding from the better part of 100 yards, odds are I can find a terrain feature to thwart your line of effect and/or line of sight. You will be forced to maneuver - and that gives me the ability to depth charge or make lucky guesses. The whole gambit seems to be ignoring the climate, illumination and terrain factors that are very real. Often times, you will not be able to be any further away than 120', often only 60', because that is as far as you can possibly see me in return.
(b) Spend the action - or maybe a full-round action, depending on where you store those spare rings - to swap rings per pair of rings (one off and pocketed, one out of pocket and on) ? Ok. And if you have not burned through all of the extra spells that the ring let you prepare, you lose them the moment you spend that action to change your rings out. I do not know for sure how the prepared spells work for those rings, but if they're the same as extra hit points from CON bonus items -and I suspect that they are = they go away last, not first. That just bought me another round to get away / make a guess and hope I'm right / depth charge you / move closer in an attempt to make use of any unusual sensory abilities I have.
Good stuff to discuss! I expect at least one of my players will go this route.
(b) Spend the action - or maybe a full-round action, depending on where you store those spare rings - to swap rings per pair of rings (one off and pocketed, one out of pocket and on) ? Ok. And if you have not burned through all of the extra spells that the ring let you prepare, you lose them the moment you spend that action to change your rings out. I do not know for sure how the prepared spells work for those rings, but if they're the same as extra hit points from CON bonus items -and I suspect that they are = they go away last, not first. That just bought me another round to get away / make a guess and hope I'm right / depth charge you / move closer in an attempt to make use of any unusual sensory abilities I have.
Well, I meant swap rings a long time before you're getting into action -- basically, use those slots for long-duration buffs and the like that you cast early in the day, then swap rings.
I've always seen ring of wizardry slots interpreted as going first, even in organized play; that being said, I don't know if that's actually the rule and overall I prefer your interpretation.
Even still, ultimately if I was going to try to run the invis / mind blank gambit in a given day and I thought glitterdust was even a reasonable possibility, yes, I would be willing to give up even a ring of wizardry to be surer that I could not be spotted until it's too late.
Honestly, I find rings of wizardry to be a little overrated in any game in which the GP value of magic items is at all relevant (true in most of the games I play in, maybe not in yours) -- there's just too much else that's good that's cheaper. Make me choose between having double the third level spell slots and having a cube of force and I'm probably picking the cube of force.
If you're two hundred feet away, I will wall you out of combat and munch on all your friends. In a heartbeat.
I don't see this gambit as something a wizard with a party would use.
Although that being said, I don't think "X isn't overpowered, because the wizard has his non-master-class companions dragging him down like a lead weight tied around his neck... again" is a particularly compelling argument.
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From the PRD on Invisibility
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.
So.. Flour does work (unless the caster is going to take the time to try to gather it all up and put it in pouches. Or just cast a level 0 spell, prestidigitation, to have it cleaned off of him), and if that caster has anything on themselves that emits light in any way, they will still have glowing points of light. Thus a great target for the bag of flour/glitterdust/etc..
Invisibility is not all that impressive if you play by the rules..
It isn't overpowered because you make yourself useless in combat by doing it. That's a different argument.
Ok, so then let's assume the wizard leaves the party safely on another continent and mavericks in alone. Now what?
From the PRD on Invisibility
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.So.. Flour does work (unless the caster is going to take the time to try to gather it all up and put it in pouches. Or just cast a level 0 spell, prestidigitation, to have it cleaned off of him), and if that caster has anything on themselves that emits light in any way, they will still have glowing points of light. Thus a great target for the bag of flour/glitterdust/etc..
Invisibility is not all that impressive if you play by the rules..
^_^ Don'tcha love underground terrain?
Hrm ... my true seeing reveals nothing, yet I can see a soft blob of light about 20 yards across at the brightest center ... the vorpal sword goes in that middle square at about neck height on an elf ... quickened true strike makes the loppage of noodle stay on target .... *Schlorck!!*
Huh ... lookit that ... a head ...
You gack him and the rest of the party can try to find him, or just adventure on that other continent.What's the problem?
That "super tough wizard combo isn't a problem because the wizard either needs to protect his useless party members or can be made useless to them" isn't a very good argument for super tough wizard combo being balanced.
Man ... again, all of your tactics are built around monsters knowing that 1) Wizard got Mind Blank casted without ever using Detect Magic, so he just throws Dispel Magic randomly.
According to the OP he has done it before, so having a bad guy escape and report the info back is what makes it possible. It would also take nothing more than an Knowledge(arcana) check and/or spellcraft to determine that you can't see the invisible guy when using true seeing or see invis and figure out how it is done. I will admit that I don't know what monsters the DM is using, but at that level it is not hard to escape, and the DM did not say he did anything to stop the monsters from leaving. Outsiders at that level can teleport at will, and the dragons have access to teleport spells, or they can fly off. If he is using NPC's then he can switch a spell out. I still am not seeing the difficulty here. AP's always have issues at some point since not everyone plays the same, so adjusting things is not uncommon. If he is not running an AP then that just makes it easier to adjust.
The flour thing has been discussed as a misread, and it does not miss a square. My suggestion was also to hit him with glitterdust and then flour, before I found out it was objects only, that is.
Readying actions to (greater)dispel magic is also an option that high level monsters, including the stock ones I mentioned in my list have if the DM is willing to change out a spell or 2. The only loser is the horn devil once again.
edit: modified things to make sense.
Blindsense is one ability that works. Now how many monsters have blindsense or blindsight out of the Monster Manual? What percentage of them can really threaten the wizard? I mean, when the DM must construct his encounters based on one combo like that, something is wrong.
As for my list of CR 16th creatures all of the dragons do. :)
How is including 2 spells basing your encounter around one tactic. I am sure the players will realize he will just dispel it again. If they don't the you can should not have too much trouble off'ing them since the ability to learn is not there.
We don't know if the player has a ring of counterspell and if he gets one later all the DM has to do is give the bad guys two glitterdust either by having two casters, or by having a quickened glitter dust, followed by a normal one or vice versa. A lot of high level monsters also have dispel magic as an SLA. At that level being invisible is not that hard to overcome especially if you are prepared for it. The DM has seen it so now he should be able to deal with it.We don't know he has one, but if a 15th level wizard doesn't have or can't get or can't make a dirt-cheap 4k gp ring, he has bigger problems than being seen.
And, hell, he can wear two of the things. So now you're looking for three glitterdusts, and if he's really obnoxious he'll have quickened glitterdust prep'd to refill the rings as he gets nailed with dusts.
All in all mind blank + improved invis isn't completely unbeatable, but it's a lot closer than it should be.
The stupidity of players who have the "ultimate combo" is amazing. Use Glitterdust and Faerie Fire. The combo can become to tiresome to keep trying. I am not here to go back and forth with ways to stop it. My point was that if it can be stopped with low level spells ie...low level casters it really isn't all the powerful.
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That "super tough wizard combo isn't a problem because the wizard either needs to protect his useless party members or can be made useless to them" isn't a very good argument for super tough wizard combo being balanced.
You still don't understand.
If you fly away in combat to protect yourself, you get walled out of combat. This takes you out of the game.The game goes on without you. You can do whatever you like, but you're kind of not actually part of the game any more. You ran away. The rest of your party gets to have all the adventures and score all the loot because they fought the monsters. You flew away to safety. In the end, you both get what you want.
"Wizard runs away invisibly" is not a broken combo. If you spend all your time defending yourself, you will never overcome an opponent. Ever.
Barring terrain, you still have no effective ways of finding the wizard's square. Glitterdust and Dispels DO NOT MATTER if you can't land the spell in the right area.
And let's say there is some cave or favourable terrain nearby. If the wizard manages to force all the enemies running into that cave, then the rest of the party is free to walk by. They've bypassed the encounter while the enemies still cower and wonder if the wizard is coming or not.
Barring terrain, you still have no effective ways of finding the wizard's square. Glitterdust and Dispels DO NOT MATTER if you can't land the spell in the right area.
And let's say there is some cave or favourable terrain nearby. If the wizard manages to force all the enemies running into that cave, then the rest of the party is free to walk by. They've bypassed the encounter while the enemies still cower and wonder if the wizard is coming or not.
You're going to create enough wall to cover a hemisphere of 100ft+ radius? I guess you can do that with enough spell slots...
Barring terrain, you still have no effective ways of finding the wizard's square. Glitterdust and Dispels DO NOT MATTER if you can't land the spell in the right area.
And let's say there is some cave or favourable terrain nearby. If the wizard manages to force all the enemies running into that cave, then the rest of the party is free to walk by. They've bypassed the encounter while the enemies still cower and wonder if the wizard is coming or not.
How many fights really take place at hundreds of feet away. Less than 1%.
I don't know too many 12th level parties or monsters than are silly enough to just stand out in the open and get blasted assuming the wizard can make the perception check to see them in the first place. Why would they be out in the open anyway? Unless you are a flying creature like a dragon being out in the open is not the place to be.
You still don't understand.
If you fly away in combat to protect yourself, you get walled out of combat. This takes you out of the game.
Walled out by what, and what makes you think the wizard can't deal with it?
This isn't about the wizard escaping to safety. This is about him being in a position to rain death with no realistic counter in at least a decent subset of situations.
To shortcut a lot of useless back and forth, just go ahead and assume the entire party are wizards pulling this trick.
Barring terrain, you still have no effective ways of finding the wizard's square. Glitterdust and Dispels DO NOT MATTER if you can't land the spell in the right area.
Conveniently ignoring my point from yesterday, I see.
The dispel certainly does matter because it's landing on round one before the wizard goes invisible, thus removing mind blank, thus removing the entire point of this whinefest.
If you're two hundred feet away, I will wall you out of combat and munch on all your friends. In a heartbeat.
Don't forget we are flying too.
I don't know what kind of wall you can put up that I couldn't simply rise in elevation 30-60 feet in order to shoot over it.
The dispel certainly does matter because it's landing on round one before the wizard goes invisible, thus removing mind blank, thus removing the entire point of this whinefest.
So a wizard deserves to just beat anyone who doesn't have dispel magic prepped, who doesn't win initiative, or who doesn't roll well enough on the dispel, as well as anyone that he has enough foresight to pre-cast greater invis for?
Because that's basically what you're saying.
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Hmmm would 'Locate Object' be blocked?
Would 'Mind Block' prevent 'Detect magic'/'Arcane Sight' from detecting the magic items carried by the subject?
This is an intersting discussion.
~will
Alternately, we rule that true seeing is actually a different beast than see invisibility. One of them is a 2nd level spell that allows you to divine the location of a person who is magically hidden in a very particular manner. All other illusory effects (including those which mask a caster's location) remain utterly unaffected.
The other is a 6th level spell which gives the caster utter immunity to 90% of the illusion school, much as mind blank grants utter immunity to 90% of the divination school.
I guess what I'm driving at is that since true seeing isn't called see invisibility, greater, there's plenty of reason to rule that it doesn't operate on the same principles. Hence, mind blank may not offer unbeatable invisibility against it.
The dispel certainly does matter because it's landing on round one before the wizard goes invisible, thus removing mind blank, thus removing the entire point of this whinefest.So a wizard deserves to just beat anyone who doesn't have dispel magic prepped, who doesn't win initiative, or who doesn't roll well enough on the dispel, as well as anyone that he has enough foresight to pre-cast greater invis for?
Because that's basically what you're saying.
If you lose initiative to a caster and you dont have the proper defenses there are a lot of ways in which you can be hosed. This little combo is the least of your worries.
If you lose initiative to a caster and you dont have the proper defenses there are a lot of ways in which you can be hosed. This little combo is the least of your worries.
The dispel certainly does matter because it's landing on round one before the wizard goes invisible, thus removing mind blank, thus removing the entire point of this whinefest.So a wizard deserves to just beat anyone who doesn't have dispel magic prepped, who doesn't win initiative, or who doesn't roll well enough on the dispel, as well as anyone that he has enough foresight to pre-cast greater invis for?
Because that's basically what you're saying.
Exactly. Besides, any standard party is going to have a minimum of two characters who damn well should have dispel magic and greater dispel magic prepared by level 15 (the divine full caster and the arcane full caster; heck, even 3/4 casters will have both by level 15), and thus have two characters with chances to beat one character's initiative. Plus, as I already mentioned, pre-casting greater invisibility isn't generally a very useful idea unless you are able to precisely specify when combat is going to start aka scry and fry.
Barring terrain, you still have no effective ways of finding the wizard's square. Glitterdust and Dispels DO NOT MATTER if you can't land the spell in the right area.Conveniently ignoring my point from yesterday, I see.
The dispel certainly does matter because it's landing on round one before the wizard goes invisible, thus removing mind blank, thus removing the entire point of this whinefest.
So you're going to be beat the wizard's initiative for sure? You're also going to succeed on your dispel check for sure? (there's a lot more ways to pump CL than to pump dispel checks. Dispel checks also cap out at +20, whereas CL keep on going up)
Aren't Wizards like the hardest class to get a jump on thanks to their ridiculous spells?