And the argument that "The Rogue can hide and attack people!" is a god awful argument for a Ninja archetype instead of a full class since you have no idea what abilities a full class would have.
You also realize that "But they made a <insert any new APG class here>!!" is a piss poor argument for ninja (or any other stereotypical asian meme) having it's own full base class.
You're right, I do not know what a PF Ninja class would have. That is also entirely irrelevant to my position.
What I DO know, is that aside from some crazy anime BS, what ninjas supposedly could do is covered by other existing classes, up to and including hiding and attacking people.
You also realize that "But they made a <insert any new APG class here>!!" is a piss poor argument for ninja (or any other stereotypical asian meme) having it's own full base class.And I've never made any such argument. Or really understand what it has to do with what I was saying to be honest... The argument to make a ninja class is that people see a way for Paizo to make a good ninja which has different mechanics from the current group of classes. Where people differ is on the question of whether a ninja's role is covered by the current mechanics or not.
Personally I rather like the idea of different ninja clans or styles being represented as different archetypes. With a more magical Bard archetype, a more mundane Rogue archetype and maybe some other variety too. I wouldn't mind a new class either, but archetypes would be my first choice and I'm a big fan of them.
I know you didn't use it. It was in response to it being used at all.
Good, glad we're on the same page.
And the argument that "The Rogue can hide and attack people!" is a god awful argument for a Ninja archetype instead of a full class since you have no idea what abilities a full class would have.
You also realize that "But they made a <insert any new APG class here>!!" is a piss poor argument for ninja (or any other stereotypical asian meme) having it's own full base class.You're right, I do not know what a PF Ninja class would have. That is also entirely irrelevant to my position.
What I DO know, is that aside from some crazy anime BS, what ninjas supposedly could do is covered by other existing classes, up to and including hiding and attacking people.
Sure, we can produce the mythical ninja with what we have in Pathinder: you just need to be a Druid/Rogue/Monk/Assassin
Sure, we can produce the mythical ninja with what we have in Pathinder: you just need to be a Druid/Rogue/Monk/AssassinAnd the argument that "The Rogue can hide and attack people!" is a god awful argument for a Ninja archetype instead of a full class since you have no idea what abilities a full class would have.
You also realize that "But they made a <insert any new APG class here>!!" is a piss poor argument for ninja (or any other stereotypical asian meme) having it's own full base class.You're right, I do not know what a PF Ninja class would have. That is also entirely irrelevant to my position.
What I DO know, is that aside from some crazy anime BS, what ninjas supposedly could do is covered by other existing classes, up to and including hiding and attacking people.
Thanks for making my point for me, Carty.
You try to squeeze all of that into one base class and see the steaming pile that results.
Sure, we can produce the mythical ninja with what we have in Pathinder: you just need to be a Druid/Rogue/Monk/AssassinAnd the argument that "The Rogue can hide and attack people!" is a god awful argument for a Ninja archetype instead of a full class since you have no idea what abilities a full class would have.
You also realize that "But they made a <insert any new APG class here>!!" is a piss poor argument for ninja (or any other stereotypical asian meme) having it's own full base class.You're right, I do not know what a PF Ninja class would have. That is also entirely irrelevant to my position.
What I DO know, is that aside from some crazy anime BS, what ninjas supposedly could do is covered by other existing classes, up to and including hiding and attacking people.Thanks for making my point for me, Carty.
You try to squeeze all of that into one base class and see the steaming pile that results.
And you could make a Summoner from a Wizard with focus in Conjuration (summoning) and (calling)
And an Alchemist from a Rogue. Or as written, a Rogue/Wizard Transmuter.And an Inquisitor from a Paladin. Or a Paladin/Rogue.
And a Witch from a Sorcerer.
And an Oracle from a Cleric or Wizard with focus in Divination
Hell, those only require one class!
A Druid could be a Ranger/Wizard Transmuter/Cleric
How about the Fighter/Rogue Monk?
If you want to say, "we don't need X class, it can be made from A/B/C/D class," then your argument easily falls to reductio ad absurdum.
Sure, we can produce the mythical ninja with what we have in Pathinder: you just need to be a Druid/Rogue/Monk/AssassinAnd the argument that "The Rogue can hide and attack people!" is a god awful argument for a Ninja archetype instead of a full class since you have no idea what abilities a full class would have.
You also realize that "But they made a <insert any new APG class here>!!" is a piss poor argument for ninja (or any other stereotypical asian meme) having it's own full base class.You're right, I do not know what a PF Ninja class would have. That is also entirely irrelevant to my position.
What I DO know, is that aside from some crazy anime BS, what ninjas supposedly could do is covered by other existing classes, up to and including hiding and attacking people.Thanks for making my point for me, Carty.
You try to squeeze all of that into one base class and see the steaming pile that results.And you could make a Summoner from a Wizard with focus in Conjuration (summoning) and (calling)
And an Alchemist from a Rogue.
And an Inquisitor from a Paladin.
And a Witch from a Sorcerer.
And an Oracle from a Cleric or Wizard with focus in DivinationHell, those only require one class!
So, reusing failed arguments is the way to go?
I'll re-use the rebuttal:All of those classes had unique mechanics created for them to do what the game makers invisioned them doing.
Ninjas do not require this.
Are we done with this circular arguement now?
I'll re-use the rebuttal:
All of those classes had unique mechanics created for them to do what the game makers invisioned them doing.
Ninjas do not require this.
They don't? I will agree with you only if you use your crystal ball to give me the winning numbers for the megamillions lottery in Tennessee.
Are we done with this circular arguement now?
Soon as you and seeker stop your circular argument which is patently false.
I'll re-use the rebuttal:
All of those classes had unique mechanics created for them to do what the game makers invisioned them doing.
Ninjas do not require this.They don't? I will agree with you only if you use your crystal ball to give me the winning numbers for the megamillions lottery in Tennessee.
Are we done with this circular arguement now?Soon as you and seeker stop your circular argument which is patently false.
<Looks into crystal ball> Nope, just says here that creating base classes for every little idea or meme out there will result in a ton of splatbooks and broken feats and PrC's to be published, then as what was otherwise a good idea becomes fail, another smaller publishing company will come along and fix it and make more money. Oh, wait that was the past, not the future.
Plenty of archetypes in the APG say that the argument is not patently false...but don't let logic stop you!
Logic? We don't need logic! Our base class based on Conjuration (Summoning) has an extraplanar ally [Conjuration (calling)]!
Logic? We don't need logic! Our base class based on Conjuration (Summoning) has an extraplanar ally [Conjuration (calling)]!
I'll take that as a "No" then.
A rogue has Sneak Attack, Find Traps, and Rogue Talents - a ninja doesn't need any of those, so a rogue does not make an ideal Ninja. Stealth? Any class can take stealth, that isn't dependant on being a rogue.
GP
I'll give ya trapfinding I think all rogue archetypes swap it. However sneak attack and the rogue talents cover most if not all "ninja" powers up to and including spider climb and invisibility
The rogue has its talent system which allow ya to include any new "ninja power" as a talent. Be a great use for ki talents and such. Hell swapping trapfinig for some type of ki power is even in the range of a simple archetype
The rogue as is already meets being a ninja. Add ab archetype that swaps trapfinding and then expand rogue talents.
Manga ninja might need shape-change, but manga doesn't belong in most fantasy settings. I don't think a ninja should have shape-change personally.
But manga is a form of fantasy is it not?
i beleive that manga fits the definition described within the link.
Never mind that D&D is significantly derived from a book by JRR Tolkien and the people who wrote manga didn't pull all of that stuff out of hammerspace.
You guys are too funny. It is all just a matter of opinion. There is no "right" answer. I myself am torn. I would love a ninja core class, depending on what it looked like. Paizo could consult Stephen Hayes to get a real historical perspective. He is fairly accessible.
Anyway, the ninja was a jack-of-all trades and could be represented by a number of current core classes. I think a core class would make sense if Paizo could find a unique angle to focus on. I would like to see what they came up with.
At the same time, a "prestige class" might be a better way to go (for the record I hate Pretige classes as a concept). This way a rogue, a monk, a druid, etc. might be able to take classes in "ninja".
Perhaps Paizo can come up with another way. Maybe a list of ninja skills or feats? Maybe ninjustsu is not a class at all. It could be a discipline or philosophy applied to a skill/feat. A fighter might not be a ninja, but could study ninja kenjustsu? An alchimist could learn some ninja recipies. A rogue could learn some ninja stealth techniques.
I am very interested to see what happens here.
Well I will be publishing Ninja as a prestige class for Pathfinder, and it will be before the release of Tien Xia, Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic probably early next year.
Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting.
Ninja will be a prestige class with Sudden Strike, Ki Powers (all new ones), Poison and alchemical training, a Death Attack, some martial arts training/features. The Ki powers will cover all special movement, bonuses to AC, ATT/DAM, saves, special attacks, or other 'magic' like powers. A ninja though only 10 levels will have no Rogue Talents as Ki powers will function better for that aspect.
Five ninja houses will exist with each having a preferred weapon, specific unique tactics, common ninja training for every house and higher level powers unique to each house. One is more wilderness, one is more seduction, one is more stealthy, another melee, and the last more arcane.
Prerequisites: Ki pool, Ranks in Stealth: 8 and Disguise: 5, and requires at least one level in fighter (bushi), jugondo (sorcerer), or shinobi (rogue).
Monk of four levels is a requirement to get the Ki pool.
So while all your various arguments 'might' apply to Tien Xia, you already can see what my ninja prestige class will look like!
GP
Never mind that D&D is significantly derived from a book by JRR Tolkien and the people who wrote manga didn't pull all of that stuff out of hammerspace.
You're so random!
Well I will be publishing Ninja as a prestige class for Pathfinder, and it will be before the release of Tien Xia, Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic probably early next year.
Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting.
Ninja will be a prestige class with Sudden Strike, Ki Powers (all new ones), Poison and alchemical training, a Death Attack, some martial arts training/features. The Ki powers will cover all special movement, bonuses to AC, ATT/DAM, saves, special attacks, or other 'magic' like powers. A ninja though only 10 levels will have no Rogue Talents as Ki powers will function better for that aspect.
Five ninja houses will exist with each having a preferred weapon, specific unique tactics, common ninja training for every house and higher level powers unique to each house. One is more wilderness, one is more seduction, one is more stealthy, another melee, and the last more arcane.
Prerequisites: Ki pool, Ranks in Stealth: 8 and Disguise: 5, and requires at least one level in fighter (bushi), jugondo (sorcerer), or shinobi (rogue).
It looks like you have done some excellent research here. I'd say your plans for the ninja draw a lot of accurate connections to the historical version, as depicted in the Bujinkan. I will plan to check this out!!!
Monk of four levels is a requirement to get the Ki pool.
So while all your various arguments 'might' apply to Tien Xia, you already can see what my ninja prestige class will look like!
GP
So you can invent a bunch of mechanics and then make classes around it despite the fact that there's not a similar archetype in fantasy (Summoner) or with names that have almost nothing to do with them (Oracle), but they can't make a sneaky class with a new mechanic and call it a ninja? Or a new mechanic for a full BAB first line class and call it a samurai?
Also, for those claiming that if we have a ninja class we should have a pirate class, you do know that the pirate archetype (the ones that sailed between Europe and America between the 1650s and 1720s, you know the caribbean ones) is usually called a SWASHBUCKLER which also covers musketeers and fencers, right? And yes, it deservers it's own class.
Also I continue with the entry pimping, Cartigan, SmiloDan, Disciple of Sakura and any other that would like a ninja or samurai class, could you came to this thread and give me some pointers on what you think the ninja should be able to do?
I'll give ya trapfinding I think all rogue archetypes swap it. However sneak attack and the rogue talents cover most if not all "ninja" powers up to and including spider climb and invisibility
But not both, because you can only take Major Magic once. Also, you can turn invisible twice per day, for a grand total of 10 rounds. Or climb on walls twice per day. Or whatever else it is you picked up all of twice per day. Forever.
Honestly, you may not think that "manga" or "anime" belongs in Pathfinder, but we're talking about creating a fantastical Asia equivalent. Shouldn't we be looking at the fantastical concepts from Asia if we're going to be true to the source material? I'd say that the Japanese are probably the authorities on what a Ninja should be able to do in a fantastical setting. Why not actually acknowledge it, rather than insisting that the ninja be "historically accurate" in a world where gods are real, alchemists can concoct potions that transform them, and wizards are actually capable of transporting themselves miles in an instant?
Honestly, I think I might hate Archetypes more than base classes. This Archetype mania that's gripped the boards lately... it almost feels more lazy than actually taking the time to make a class variable enough to cover various functions right out of the gate. I didn't even like half (or more) of the archetypes in the APG, to be honest. I think I may be in the minority here...
Some of them would have been better as PrCs, but most Paizonians seem to hate them with a passion because WotC kept spawning dozens of them with each and every book. Hope Paizo doesn't do the same with archetypes, and keeps a balance of both archetypes and PrCs. What I really liked about the APG wasn't the swapping stuff but the new options, like new rage powers and rogue talents.
I'll give ya trapfinding I think all rogue archetypes swap it. However sneak attack and the rogue talents cover most if not all "ninja" powers up to and including spider climb and invisibilityBut not both, because you can only take Major Magic once. Also, you can turn invisible twice per day, for a grand total of 10 rounds. Or climb on walls twice per day. Or whatever else it is you picked up all of twice per day. Forever.
Honestly, you may not think that "manga" or "anime" belongs in Pathfinder, but we're talking about creating a fantastical Asia equivalent. Shouldn't we be looking at the fantastical concepts from Asia if we're going to be true to the source material? I'd say that the Japanese are probably the authorities on what a Ninja should be able to do in a fantastical setting. Why not actually acknowledge it, rather than insisting that the ninja be "historically accurate" in a world where gods are real, alchemists can concoct potions that transform them, and wizards are actually capable of transporting themselves miles in an instant?
Honestly, I think I might hate Archetypes more than base classes. This Archetype mania that's gripped the boards lately... it almost feels more lazy than actually taking the time to make a class variable enough to cover various functions right out of the gate. I didn't even like half (or more) of the archetypes in the APG, to be honest. I think I may be in the minority here...
That's funny, I was just thinking that the Ronin class could be modeled with a Rogue archetype. As a PC it doesn't work, since it was possible to be born a Ronin. But the behavior of the 47 Ronin sounds like lawful Rogues to me.
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That's funny, I was just thinking that the Ronin class could be modeled with a Rogue archetype. As a PC it doesn't work, since it was possible to be born a Ronin. But the behavior of the 47 Ronin sounds like lawful Rogues to me.
RONIN ISN'T A CLASS! IT'S A SOCIAL POSITION! THAT'S LIKE SAYING THAT "ACCOUNTANT" IS A CLASS! @#%$%!!!
I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!
*deep breath*
I feel a little better now.
Jeremy Puckett
That's funny, I was just thinking that the Ronin class could be modeled with a Rogue archetype. As a PC it doesn't work, since it was possible to be born a Ronin. But the behavior of the 47 Ronin sounds like lawful Rogues to me.
RONIN ISN'T A CLASS! IT'S A SOCIAL POSITION! THAT'S LIKE SAYING THAT "ACCOUNTANT" IS A CLASS! @#%$%!!!
I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!
*deep breath*
I feel a little better now.
Jeremy Puckett
In medieval europe, "Cleric" was a social position.
In medieval europe, "Cleric" was a social position.That's funny, I was just thinking that the Ronin class could be modeled with a Rogue archetype. As a PC it doesn't work, since it was possible to be born a Ronin. But the behavior of the 47 Ronin sounds like lawful Rogues to me.
RONIN ISN'T A CLASS! IT'S A SOCIAL POSITION! THAT'S LIKE SAYING THAT "ACCOUNTANT" IS A CLASS! @#%$%!!!
I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!
*deep breath*
I feel a little better now.
Jeremy Puckett
Really so was monk in Japan, though of the Commoner Caste (Heimin) they held the higher position among them, and kind of sat 'between' the Commoner and the Samurai caste. Many aging samurai would 'retire' as monks at the end of one's career. Though it was a step down in social standing for them - it was still honorable. Lots of samurai retired as monks.
If a farmer's son had the aptitude, but no inheritance or other skill (usually son #3 or down) were sent off to be a monk - a kind of step up.
Becoming monk/cleric/priest was probably a social class in many other societies too.
GP
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Most of the pro-ninja class arguments boil down to "Look at Wikipedia! Ninjas can control the elements and shapechange!" But you know what? I'd wager a large amount of money that in a poll of 100 (or more) random people, more of them would associate the term "ninja" with turtles than with magic. So if we introduce a base ninja class, it is also abso-freaking-lutely imperative that we introduce a humanoid anthropomorphic turtle PC race.
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Most of the pro-ninja class arguments boil down to "Look at Wikipedia! Ninjas can control the elements and shapechange!" But you know what? I'd wager a large amount of money that in a poll of 100 (or more) random people, more of them would associate the term "ninja" with turtles than with magic. So if we introduce a base ninja class, it is also abso-freaking-lutely imperative that we introduce a humanoid anthropomorphic turtle PC race.
That would be radical!
==AKA 8one6
Most of the pro-ninja class arguments boil down to "Look at Wikipedia! Ninjas can control the elements and shapechange!" But you know what? I'd wager a large amount of money that in a poll of 100 (or more) random people, more of them would associate the term "ninja" with turtles than with magic. So if we introduce a base ninja class, it is also abso-freaking-lutely imperative that we introduce a humanoid anthropomorphic turtle PC race.
Kappa will probably be a player character race in Kaidan and they are the Japanese water spirit, diminuitive turtle like race - and most likely the inspiration to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
GP
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Most of the pro-ninja class arguments boil down to "Look at Wikipedia! Ninjas can control the elements and shapechange!" But you know what? I'd wager a large amount of money that in a poll of 100 (or more) random people, more of them would associate the term "ninja" with turtles than with magic. So if we introduce a base ninja class, it is also abso-freaking-lutely imperative that we introduce a humanoid anthropomorphic turtle PC race.
Most of the pro-ninja class arguments boil down to "Look at Wikipedia! Ninjas can control the elements and shapechange!" But you know what? I'd wager a large amount of money that in a poll of 100 (or more) random people, more of them would associate the term "ninja" with turtles than with magic. So if we introduce a base ninja class, it is also abso-freaking-lutely imperative that we introduce a humanoid anthropomorphic turtle PC race.
Maybe if it was still the 90's, but it isn't. I would take that wager ;p
Most of the pro-ninja class arguments boil down to "Look at Wikipedia! Ninjas can control the elements and shapechange!" But you know what? I'd wager a large amount of money that in a poll of 100 (or more) random people, more of them would associate the term "ninja" with turtles than with magic. So if we introduce a base ninja class, it is also abso-freaking-lutely imperative that we introduce a humanoid anthropomorphic turtle PC race.
"We don't need a ninja class! See, I use this small sample, unscientific poll of people and all your arguments are therefore invalid!"
I wonder how many people out of a hundred would know what Pathfinder is.
*bampf*
Get gamers involved, especially video gamers, and you'd get a LOT of magic abilities. Especially with the xBox generation and their Ninja Gaiden stuff. But it is true that female ninjas automatically get significantly larger breasts than your average asian woman.
Get gamers involved, especially video gamers, and you'd get a LOT of magic abilities. Especially with the xBox generation and their Ninja Gaiden stuff. But it is true that female ninjas automatically get significantly larger breasts than your average asian woman.
I suppose that could be considered a Supernatural ability, although I'd have gone with Extraordinary.
For my money, monks make the best base ninja class. Mostly because of their speed bonus, mixed with their increased jumping ability. If I was playing a rogue based, historically accurate, extraordinary-abilities-only, ninja archetype with a monk in the party, I would end up feeling gypped. Doesn't matter if my sneak attack was doing lots of damage, the fact that he monk was twice as fast as me, and could leap tall buildings would be a deal breaker.
They already have a ninja class.
But it has such mad skills that you can't see it!
;-)
I wonder how many people out of a hundred would know what Pathfinder is.Wouldn't matter if they knew what Pathfinder was. Only if they knew what ninjas were.
If they don't know what Pathfinder is, their knowledge of what a ninja is is wholly immaterial.
If they don't know what Pathfinder is, their knowledge of what a ninja is is wholly immaterial.I wonder how many people out of a hundred would know what Pathfinder is.Wouldn't matter if they knew what Pathfinder was. Only if they knew what ninjas were.
Except ya know they would pretty much describe a pathfinder rogue so yesh it is kinda relevant
Except ya know they would pretty much describe a pathfinder rogue so yesh it is kinda relevantIf they don't know what Pathfinder is, their knowledge of what a ninja is is wholly immaterial.I wonder how many people out of a hundred would know what Pathfinder is.Wouldn't matter if they knew what Pathfinder was. Only if they knew what ninjas were.
Blah blah, blah blah, blah blah blah
Except ya know they would pretty much describe a pathfinder rogue so yesh it is kinda relevantIf they don't know what Pathfinder is, their knowledge of what a ninja is is wholly immaterial.I wonder how many people out of a hundred would know what Pathfinder is.Wouldn't matter if they knew what Pathfinder was. Only if they knew what ninjas were.
And I bet if you asked those same people what a wizard is, they would describe something that was nothing like a Pathfinder wizard. It most certainly wouldn't be vancian.
Ask them what a paladin is, and they'd probably just look at you blankly. They maybe would describe something like a PF paladin.
Ask them about a Ranger, and you'd likely get something like this.
I don't think anyone would suggest that a bard should be a competant warrior, let alone a spellcaster. If they even understood the word, they'd probably associate it with Shakespeare, since he's often called "the Bard."
Obviously, that means that we're doing it wrong and we should rewrite all the classes to conform better to what some random public sampling thinks of when they hear a word, right?
Frankly, I'm much more inclined to expect the random stuff that has been proposed for a ninja in this thread than I am to tolerate the BS abilities of an Oracle class that can't even actually predict things. "Let's go search out the oracle in the mountains and see if we can learn what the evil big bad is up to..." "Sorry, guys. I'm an oracle of fire. If you want me to set something on fire, I'm your guy, but I can't actually predict the future or see beyond the veil of the world." "So... you're a sorcerer then?"
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Disciple of Sakura: Ok, then I will define ninja for the Pathfinder game:
A ninja is a Tian Xia commoner who has absolutely no combat skill whatsoever. He is unable to become proficient with any weapons, armor, or shields. He is unable to gain skill ranks in acrobatics, bluff, climb, disguise, escape artist, perception, sense motive, sleight of hand, or stealth. Otherwise, treat as a 1st level commoner.
There, now that a Tian Xia ninja is clearly defined, we can all stop arguing about whether or not he should be a rogue, a monk, be a archtype of one of those classes, or have his own class.
You may now begin the arguments about whether the ninja should be an archtype of commoner or his own new NPC class.
Glad to end the argument and glad to know my Ninja isn't from Tian Xia, so he looks absolutely nothing like that!
GP
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Disciple of Sakura: Ok, then I will define ninja for the Pathfinder game:
A ninja is a Tian Xia commoner who has absolutely no combat skill whatsoever. He is unable to become proficient with any weapons, armor, or shields. He is unable to gain skill ranks in acrobatics, bluff, climb, disguise, escape artist, perception, sense motive, sleight of hand, or stealth. Otherwise, treat as a 1st level commoner.
There, now that a Tian Xia ninja is clearly defined, we can all stop arguing about whether or not he should be a rogue, a monk, be a archtype of one of those classes, or have his own class.
You may now begin the arguments about whether the ninja should be an archtype of commoner or his own new NPC class.
Threadjack: OMG, Commoner Archetypes! WANT!
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Threadjack: OMG, Commoner Archetypes! WANT!Disciple of Sakura: Ok, then I will define ninja for the Pathfinder game:
A ninja is a Tian Xia commoner who has absolutely no combat skill whatsoever. He is unable to become proficient with any weapons, armor, or shields. He is unable to gain skill ranks in acrobatics, bluff, climb, disguise, escape artist, perception, sense motive, sleight of hand, or stealth. Otherwise, treat as a 1st level commoner.
There, now that a Tian Xia ninja is clearly defined, we can all stop arguing about whether or not he should be a rogue, a monk, be a archtype of one of those classes, or have his own class.
You may now begin the arguments about whether the ninja should be an archtype of commoner or his own new NPC class.
Particularly if we can get a "farmer's daughter" archetype.
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In medieval europe, "Cleric" was a social position.That's funny, I was just thinking that the Ronin class could be modeled with a Rogue archetype. As a PC it doesn't work, since it was possible to be born a Ronin. But the behavior of the 47 Ronin sounds like lawful Rogues to me.
RONIN ISN'T A CLASS! IT'S A SOCIAL POSITION! THAT'S LIKE SAYING THAT "ACCOUNTANT" IS A CLASS! @#%$%!!!
I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!
*deep breath*
I feel a little better now.
Jeremy Puckett
Oh, dear.
"Cleric" is the name the priest class was given to avoid upsetting religious zealots. We all know that, let's not be silly about it.
The cleric class does not attempt to model, in any way, a medieval cleric.
...
Even if we call the ninja class the "Kerpow!" we'll still know what it was supposed to represent.
If we have a class called a "Woo-Ha!" that 'models to Ronin class' in a fantasy way then it will suffer from attempting to model thin air.
That was Jeremy's point and, to be honest, I think you knew that.
Let's try to deal with the substance of people's points rather than challenging imperfections on their examples.
In medieval europe, "Cleric" was a social position.That's funny, I was just thinking that the Ronin class could be modeled with a Rogue archetype. As a PC it doesn't work, since it was possible to be born a Ronin. But the behavior of the 47 Ronin sounds like lawful Rogues to me.
RONIN ISN'T A CLASS! IT'S A SOCIAL POSITION! THAT'S LIKE SAYING THAT "ACCOUNTANT" IS A CLASS! @#%$%!!!
I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!
*deep breath*
I feel a little better now.
Jeremy Puckett
Oh, dear.
"Cleric" is the name the priest class was given to avoid upsetting religious zealots. We all know that, let's not be silly about it.
The cleric class does not attempt to model, in any way, a medieval cleric.
...
Even if we call the ninja class the "Kerpow!" we'll still know what it was supposed to represent.
If we have a class called a "Woo-Ha!" that 'models to Ronin class' in a fantasy way then it will suffer from attempting to model thin air.
That was Jeremy's point and, to be honest, I think you knew that.
Let's try to deal with the substance of people's points rather than challenging imperfections on their examples.
What I mean is...
The notion of what a class represents includes social position (i.e., Aristocrat, Cleric, and, arguably, in a magical world, Wizards). Ninja is presumably most viable as a Rogue build -- in that fact I agree. When I was creating a Minkan character who is a Ronin, the best way to represent that (i.e. the Chanbara/Jidaigeki concept: Yojimbo et al) seems to be a Rogue, Rogue/Fighter or Rogue/Cavalier.But arguing over whether classes should be named after broad social divisions or castes is already a lost cause in d20. I thought that part was what Jeremy was commenting on-- in fact that still is how the post seems to read.