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from Facebook
Jason Bulmahn, Game Designer: One of my secrets is out. We are working on a Pathfinder Intro set. Just thought I would spread the word.
I was wondering when this would finally make the jump over here. That said.. someone should probably start a new thread with the title "Pathfinder Intro Game" instead of hoping folks wade through three pages to get to this news.. of course, we should have a blog about it soon I think.
Jason
taken from HERE
Is it going to be just an intro set or you could use it for a campaign for advanced players as a rules-light alternative?
Yeah, I saw the great news yesterday: the contagion spread to him from Mona, presumably. Oh to be a sentient parasite in Bulmahn's brain while he's thinking introductory thoughts.
I'm really curious what way this will go. In my experience gaming with young folks, they're fine playing as long as they have a older, more experienced GM running the game for them, but when they try to play without their avuncular GM, they get frustrated and give up. They'd game a lot more if GMing were an easier task for them.
Are the Grapple rules all going to be in one place?
Personally, I won't have a use for this product - I don't think the current ruleset is too complex and have had few problems introducing completely new players who have never played an RPG before. However, it does seem that there were frequent requests for this, so more power to you, Paizo for doing it.
Indeed, I would be much more likely to purchase "Pathfinder Simulationist/'Realistic'/Advanced/Expert/Master/Heavy/..." that used the current system as a base, but introduced more simulationist rules.
Nevertheless, if you do want my advice, in my experience, the main struggle for new players picking up the game is choosing from the relatively large number of feats and/or spells. This, in particular, requires help/advice from more experienced players. Simply reducing the number of feats/spells in an introductory product would make the game more accessible to new players even withouth the advice of more experienced ones.
Although it might seem counterintuitive, new players also sometimes struggle with some of the simplifications a game makes. Many new players want to attack a specific body part, for example, to achieve a specific effect (e.g. immobilize the opponent by attacking a leg), since they have not yet internalized the abstraction of hit points. Simpler is not necessarily more intuitive for new players, so be careful about what you simplify.
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What do YOU the customer hope to see in a Pathfinder introduction game?
Heroquest, with Pathfinderised rules.
I want plastic (unpainted are fine) reaper iconic and bad guy miniatures (on the scale you would need for a boxed set, I hope that would be feasible. Otherwise a collectors version with 4 metals would also work).
I'd want a flip mat, or dungeon tiles type set up.
I'd want cards for the available items (mundane and magical), skills, feats, spells available.
I would expect that because of this the number of foes would be limited, the number of available skills/spells/feats would be limited.
It would still be a blast. Heroquest is where I first heard the term D&D, I pursued it for 5 or more years after that, trying to find out what it was until I bought the second edition core books.
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Indeed, I would be much more likely to purchase "Pathfinder Simulationist/'Realistic'/Advanced/Expert/Master/Heavy/..." that used the current system as a base, but introduced more simulationist rules.
LOL -would buy and support this 100%. Something so that the DMs have more options in the type of game they want to run - a toolbox approach with more choices and "classic" options/details.
Oh wait, this is about a Pathfinder intro game!
Well, as a customer I would like to see an easier game to run, not for me - but for my players!
See, I DM ALL THE TIME and I would like a break. One of the biggest gripes from my players is that the game is too much. They understand the rules alright (too well) but it's too much as in "three-ring-circus" too much.
If I had a game that was along the lines of Basic D&D - a fully detailed game, simple rules with less wall of options I'm sure I could twist one of my players arms and get them to run it.
So a Basic style game (complete) with the core concepts behind Pathfinder - a game I could easily get someone with no experience with RPGS to play after one quick short session of chartacter creation.
I'll think of more later.
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We're VERY early in the preliminary stages of designing this game, and there's really not much more for us to say about it now other than "We're doing it."
What would be more valuable to us would be: What do YOU the customer hope to see in a Pathfinder introduction game?
I know this sounds a little cheesy, but a unique set of dice for the package would be a really nice perk, not just some lame mono-color chessex set, but a nice one. Maybe with the Paizo Golem on it.
Besides that, a set of cards with a good number of the common terms and statistics laid out with descriptions of them and maybe even the calculations to figure it out (CMB/CMD I'm looking at you).
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I'd personally like to see "Pathfinder Lite" - Full rules for creating and advancing characters of 4 or 5 character classes to 5th or 10th level, a small sampling of the most iconic combat and utility spells of each level, and a sampling of enough monsters to keep characters busy for a little while.
That way, it's something I could give to new players to allow them to play with "the big dogs" of a gaming group without overhwhelming the newb or slowing down the experienced players, and they could transition to the full Pathfinder rules when ready.
We're VERY early in the preliminary stages of designing this game, and there's really not much more for us to say about it now other than "We're doing it."
What would be more valuable to us would be: What do YOU the customer hope to see in a Pathfinder introduction game?
My kids have actually aged to the point to where its a bit of a moot point, but the issue I had with WOTC's old Basic sets in 3.5 were that they provided extremely limited low level options, and once you played through about three levels with limited options, BAM, "now you should jump into the full game system and learn everything."
I'd love to see a simplified d20 game that goes from, say 1-15th level that allows people to actually play a campaign with the basic rules, thus getting the idea of how to play a campaign using the rules, not just giving them a really pretty set of quick start rules with extra pieces.
What I don't want to see is a game made for children, unless it is specifically supposed to be for children.
I think the crux of the matter has to do with the amount of options, as opposed to a really different system. I would like PLite to be a stepping stone into PRPG, where the player feels like they are graduating into something even cooler, as opposed to learning a new game.
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Admittedly, I'm bit by the OSR bug, but I still think a completely self contained rule book covering levels 1-3 (four classes?) with a Whispering Cairn level of awesome adventure that can be used to introduce new players (not geared towards kids but no worse than PG) and form the basis for a major shared experience would be a huge score.
...in a box with character sheets, dice, graph paper, and a pencil would be gravy.
Obviously its going to vary from person to person, but it just doesn't feel like its own "thing" to have the introductory game only go from level 1-3 to me. It may turn out that it makes perfect sense to everyone else or from a market standpoint. I could be wrong.
Thinking back to my younger days, though, I liked the idea that I could pick up an Expert Set or I could get the AD&D rules, and either way, I could still keep going with a campaign.
I do think it ought to be aimed at younger gamers and new gamers to introduce them to RPing and Pathfiner RPG: grow the game.
It's about time! ;)
Off the top of my head:
1. It may seems obvious, but make it a subset of the rules, rather than an alternate rule-set.
2. Make it a complete, open-ended game. Include a (paired-down) equipment list, subset of spell levels 1-2, paried down combat (maybe leave out maneuvers), etc. It may be tempting to go the recent WotC route of excluding basic components of a "true RPG"...don't do it. The full game will sell itself. Model on early eigties versions of basic D&D.
3. Four classes -- Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, levels 1-3.
4. NOT a box -- a book. Minimal price is key. Ideal would be 64 full color pages, $10. Free in PDF.
5. Lots of pretty (but recycled -- it's new to them) art.
6. Drive customers to Paizo.com: Give tie-in tokens and maps as free PDFs.
7. Include a discount coupon for a Pathfinder sub for new registrants. You could mess with a scratch off code, but why bother? Each use is still a new sub.
I don't know about book versus boxed set. I can't say what is feasible or what isn't price wise, but I do think that if I had seen the AD&D hardcovers first, and been told "its a game," I'm not sure I would have "got it" enough to even give it a try.
On the other hand, seeing the game, in a box, it looked like a game to me. It didn't take me very long to figure out how the AD&D hardcovers were a "game" as well, but I wouldn't have gotten it "cold" and "from the outside."
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I do think it ought to be aimed at younger gamers and new gamers to introduce them to RPing and Pathfiner RPG: grow the game.
I agree with Mairkurion in that the Pathfinder Intro Game should be aimed at younger players. I was at a convention in Denver recently and noticed the surprising lack of younger players - mainly older guys like myself seated around Pathfinder Society Tables. We definitely need to "Grow the Game".
Hmmm...sorry, I was assuming that anyone who gets this could then pick up the Core rules and keep going without batting an eye. This is an intro (players and GMs) NOT a lite/alternate version of the game.
I could totally not know what I'm talking about. Its just me trying to view things the way I did back when I first got the "just before the Red Boxed Set" boxed set and the Expert Set back in the day.
Hm . . . not to mention the Basic Marvel Super Heroes boxed set and the Star Frontiers boxed set . . .
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I agree with Mairkurion in that the Pathfinder Intro Game should be aimed at younger players. I was at a convention in Denver recently and noticed the surprising lack of younger players - mainly older guys like myself seated around Pathfinder Society Tables. We definitely need to "Grow the Game".
+1 Disturbing isn't it? I personally think a great market to try to tap is the youth anime culture if it is at all possible, that is a GOLDMINE of future players just waiting.
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I know this sounds a little cheesy, but a unique set of dice for the package would be a really nice perk, not just some lame mono-color chessex set, but a nice one. Maybe with the Paizo Golem on it.
I wonder if they'd be able to get Q-Workshop to do this. As a side, +1 to your idea.
What would be more valuable to us would be: What do YOU the customer hope to see in a Pathfinder introduction game?
As others have said:
- Minis for each character (4 total, perhaps of Iconics)
- Minis for the introductory enemies, such as goblins (1 or 2 encounters worth)
- Item cards for treasure (not a whole deck, just enough for one or two encounters)
- Flip mat for the encounter(s)
- A 'choose your own adventure' style booklet adventure/encounter, made for several individuals, not just one
- A quick summary of what each race/class does, and what they each get when they level up once.
- A custom set of "Paizo" or "Pathfinder" dice (see above)
And I do agree that this should be aimed at a younger crowd. And come in a box set for under $20, if at all possible.
I guess I see two paths and I'm curious which one Paizo is considering:
a) A stripped down, non-intimidating introduction to PFRPG, meant to be discarded after a few levels of play.
b) An alternate, streamlined, rules set meant to capture the "looser" game play of early RPGs, akin to what OSR has tapped into, meant to be played for all levels of play.
I'm guessing it is a). If a) I'd favor an introductory box with some tokens, character sheets, introductory module, dice, play mat, and of course the rules. The rules would cover no more than the first four or five levels of play and strip the game down spell-wise, skill-wise, feat-wise and have only four classes (Wizard, Warrior, Rogue, Cleric).
As for b), I'd LOVE that, but I doubt that is what Paizo is thinking. The idea of a very low overhead fast and furious rules system with Paizo's quality and attention to detail is mouth watering.
We're VERY early in the preliminary stages of designing this game, and there's really not much more for us to say about it now other than "We're doing it."
What would be more valuable to us would be: What do YOU the customer hope to see in a Pathfinder introduction game?
Please note, I'm framing this as a box set, but this could well work as a set of Companion-sized books.
"Player's Guide" containing:
- stat generation rules.
- 4 to 5 base classes (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard with Ranger, Sorcerer or perhaps Magus being the fifth), with 2-3 pages per class. Each class should run to about level 3, explicitly list skills attached to the class, provide some lore/flavor text and all relevant class abilities and some canned spell lists.
- Sample equipment "packs" per class, 1/2 page per class, covering all classes and providing relevant damage and ac stats and providing 2-3 options per class.
- A brief skill list containing all skills attached to the base classes, "short" rules on using skills, and a side bar on adjucating things not explicitly defined.
- a brief feat list.
- An overview of combat and movement rules.
- An Spell or condition rules.
"Intro to Golarion Guide":
- An into to 4-6 Inner Sea nations, 2-4 pages each.
- At least two intro towns, with maps (two pages per town, including town map, would be fine.)
- A 2 page write up of each race included in the guide. Ideally, this would be a streamlined version of the info presented in the front cover of every "Races of Golarion" Companion book + 1 to 1/2 pages of Lore/Flavor text.
- The inner covers should provide an inner sea map
A DM's Guide:
- Any rules needed for play not contained in the other books.
- Monsters of the Inner Sea, containing 10-14 pages of monsters, 1 page per monster.
- 2-4 short adventure scenarios.
- Rules for making your own scenario/adventure.
Other bits:
- one set of dice
- Character and monster tokens/counters
- One generic flip mat or set of 4 tiles
- One or two pages of dungeon accessory tokens (walls, pits, stairs)
- Character sheets.
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We're VERY early in the preliminary stages of designing this game, and there's really not much more for us to say about it now other than "We're doing it."
What would be more valuable to us would be: What do YOU the customer hope to see in a Pathfinder introduction game?
An ACTUAL introduction to the game. A low level boxed set that is completely compatible with the core game and eases players into the full rule set. I'm not interested in a Pathfinder Basic that only simulated the game I currently play and I really wouldn't want to see one put out.
==AKA 8one6
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In my opinion it should be something like this:
Boxed set
Introduction guide: booklet with short solo adventure, example of play, and general information on role playing games
Rules guide: simple version of existing rules that can be used to play indefinitely or as an introduction to the book line, maybe based off the slow experience track
Races (elf, dwarf, halfling, human)
Classes (fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric)
Up to 5th level
Simple form of combat
Adventure booklet: 2-3 adventures with information on how to create more, ideas for further adventures and npcs, maybe 1-2 pages of random dungeon generation or npc generation charts
Monster cards/Monster booklet: Monsters, should include a variety of level appropriate mythical and classic fantasy foes (goblins to dragons), with art
Accessories:
Dice
Maps from the adventures
Dry erase battlemat
monster and hero tokens/plastic minis
Boxed set would be best. That way it could be introduced in toy stores and bookstores. We have tons of Toys R Us, a couple of Borders, maybe one or two comic shops, and no hobby/game stores in the 100x35 mile island of Puerto Rico. A complete boxed set with dice included would be necessary there. Sure its a small island but I'm pretty sure there are other places in the US and the world with similar situations.
Also a box set looks more like a game than a book. A lot of people don't understand how a book can be a game. Parents looking for a game for their children might find a box with "Pathfinder: A game of the imagination for the whole family" interesting. Include a disclaimer like this "No computer necessary, builds math, reading and socialization skills." and I'm sure it will sell out in most stores.
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An example of character creation and example of play is ESSENTIAL. I'm currently teaching a group of new players how to GM the game and I'm finding a lot of things I've taken for granted are things they ask questions about.
Questions I've gotten from my burgeoning GMs are:
"When do you call for skill checks?"
(In general the players will let you know when they want to make a check: "I'm sneaking behind him, what do I roll?", if someone is sneaking up on the characters of if you want them to make a knowledge check should you need to call for checks.)
"When should I roll for initiative - is it before the first hostile action or after?"
(I tend to play it by ear. If the enemy isn't aware then resolve the action as the surprise round and then call for initiative. If more than one person wants to do something call for initiative.
"Do I tell my players the monster's AC or Hit Points?"
(That's up to you. I usually tell the players the monster's AC after they've hit it the first time, and I only tell them how much damage the creature has taken not the creature's maximum HP. I then tell the players the creature's relative health. "Injured, Severely Injured, Almost Unconscious")
As for toys and stuff:
Dice
Dungeon Master's Book
Player's Book
Pregenerated Characters
Miniatures
Dry Erase Matt.
Dry Erase Matt.
Surely not Matt Biondi?
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1. It may seems obvious, but make it a subset of the rules, rather than an alternate rule-set.
2. Make it a complete, open-ended game. Include a (paired-down) equipment list, subset of spell levels 1-2, paried down combat (maybe leave out maneuvers), etc. It may be tempting to go the recent WotC route of excluding basic components of a "true RPG"...don't do it. The full game will sell itself. Model on early eigties versions of basic D&D.
3. Four classes -- Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, levels 1-3.
4. NOT a box -- a book. Minimal price is key. Ideal would be 64 full color pages, $10. Free in PDF.
5. Lots of pretty (but recycled -- it's new to them) art.
6. Drive customers to Paizo.com: Give tie-in tokens and maps as free PDFs.
7. Include a discount coupon for a Pathfinder sub for new registrants. You could mess with a scratch off code, but why bother? Each use is still a new sub.
I can see this project going in one of two directions. There's the "awesome boxed set" concept, and the "trimmed down book" concept. Unfortunately they're mutually exclusive and have their own unique advantages/disadvantages.
I think bugleman has presented the "trimmed down book" option quite well. Something inexpensive which gets people into the core rules (a simplified but 100% compatible set of rules is key) might draw new players into the hobby without making them pay a through their nose. This in turn may make them want to continue to buy more products and get into the full game by giving them enough taste of the system to enjoy it without breaking the bank in the process. It's like giving people free crack and then waiting for them to come back for the real thing.
The "awesome boxed set" option is just as good, but it risks alienating that new player who just spent $50 on a game that becomes defunct once they grow out of it and want to buy the Core Rulebook and Bestiary for another $100. As a plus side though, it could though provide a much richer backdrop by including items like "an introduction to Golarion" and fancy dice and some of the key elements to playing the game in the first place (miniatures, flip mats, etc.).
We need to get more players into the game, but the whole point of getting them into the game is to make it an easy and smooth transition over the full game. Whatever the choice is, I would hope it's not an "alternate" set of rules that reflect 80% of the core Pathfinder rules. It was hard enough unlearning some of the old 3.5 concepts as an experienced gamer; it's not exactly fair to ask a new gamer to forget big parts of what they've learned when the whole point was to introduce them to the full game in the first case.
It's about time! ;)
Off the top of my head:
1. It may seems obvious, but make it a subset of the rules, rather than an alternate rule-set.
2. Make it a complete, open-ended game. Include a (paired-down) equipment list, subset of spell levels 1-2, paried down combat (maybe leave out maneuvers), etc. It may be tempting to go the recent WotC route of excluding basic components of a "true RPG"...don't do it. The full game will sell itself. Model on early eigties versions of basic D&D.
3. Four classes -- Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, levels 1-3.
4. NOT a box -- a book. Minimal price is key. Ideal would be 64 full color pages, $10. Free in PDF.
5. Lots of pretty (but recycled -- it's new to them) art.
6. Drive customers to Paizo.com: Give tie-in tokens and maps as free PDFs.
7. Include a discount coupon for a Pathfinder sub for new registrants. You could mess with a scratch off code, but why bother? Each use is still a new sub.
+1
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+1It's about time! ;)
Off the top of my head:
1. It may seems obvious, but make it a subset of the rules, rather than an alternate rule-set.
2. Make it a complete, open-ended game. Include a (paired-down) equipment list, subset of spell levels 1-2, paried down combat (maybe leave out maneuvers), etc. It may be tempting to go the recent WotC route of excluding basic components of a "true RPG"...don't do it. The full game will sell itself. Model on early eigties versions of basic D&D.
3. Four classes -- Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, levels 1-3.
4. NOT a box -- a book. Minimal price is key. Ideal would be 64 full color pages, $10. Free in PDF.
5. Lots of pretty (but recycled -- it's new to them) art.
6. Drive customers to Paizo.com: Give tie-in tokens and maps as free PDFs.
7. Include a discount coupon for a Pathfinder sub for new registrants. You could mess with a scratch off code, but why bother? Each use is still a new sub.
Dunno how I missed buglyman's suggestion. I'll add a +1 to that as well.
Chief Technical Officer
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As others have said:
- Minis for each character (4 total, perhaps of Iconics)
- Minis for the introductory enemies, such as goblins (1 or 2 encounters worth)
- Item cards for treasure (not a whole deck, just enough for one or two encounters)
- Flip mat for the encounter(s)
- A 'choose your own adventure' style booklet adventure/encounter, made for several individuals, not just one
- A quick summary of what each race/class does, and what they each get when they level up once.
- A custom set of "Paizo" or "Pathfinder" dice (see above)
And I do agree that this should be aimed at a younger crowd. And come in a box set for under $20, if at all possible.
You know, your list of minis alone would pretty much take it over the $20 price point at retail. And for your full list, our per-unit *manufacturing* costs would probably be way more than $20!
We'll certainly do our best to strike a balance between "high production values" and "inexpensive," and we're expecting to have slimmer margins than normal... but I think you're going to need to lower your expectations there—*losing* money on every copy sold is not part of the plan.
To get a better idea of what's actually doable in a box set, look at Kill Doctor Lucky: for $30, you get a game board, a cardboard token sheet, a handful of plastic stands, a 4-page booklet, and a deck of 96 cards. Obviously, those aren't the exact components we'd want here, but if you think about that in terms of give and take, maybe it'll help you keep suggestions within reason. (For example, a 4-page booklet obviously isn't going to cut it, so we'll need to spend more there. Maybe if we drop the cards, we can expand the first booklet and add a second... and swapping a Flip-Mat in for that hard game board would probably save some money to spend on the books... but if you want to add dice, you'll need to either take something out or raise the price... and so on.)
I'd also love to see the PFRPG intro set also usable as a rules-light alternative to the full game - if it could somehow both be a stripped down version of the rules and at the same time be compatible with the expanded rules material (such as a good portion of feats, spells, and alternate classes) that'd be fantastic! (Though I understand how difficult that would be, as a good deal of the expanded options assume use of all the rules of the game.)
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As others have said:
- Minis for each character (4 total, perhaps of Iconics)
- Minis for the introductory enemies, such as goblins (1 or 2 encounters worth)
- Item cards for treasure (not a whole deck, just enough for one or two encounters)
- Flip mat for the encounter(s)
- A 'choose your own adventure' style booklet adventure/encounter, made for several individuals, not just one
- A quick summary of what each race/class does, and what they each get when they level up once.
- A custom set of "Paizo" or "Pathfinder" dice (see above)
And I do agree that this should be aimed at a younger crowd. And come in a box set for under $20, if at all possible.
As Vic says above I don't see that hitting the price point at all, and here's why (in my head):
so it looks like a price point for what you're asking for would be in the $82-$97 retail price point.
I don't know where else they could cut corners on this without eliminating some of the major things you asked for. (of course these numbers are purely guesses made by me on how the price point would be figured out. It might be cheaper if the individual pieces ( minis/flip map) were available separately... that might get it to $34 price point..
Edit: Jason Beardsley: I'm in no way picking on you. I just saw your list and thought it would be a good exercise to figure out what the piecemeal price is. and how close I could get it to your price point
I would love to see paper minis (or similar) on good card-stock for a intro game.
We need to get more players into the game, but the whole point of getting them into the game is to make it an easy and smooth transition over the full game. Whatever the choice is, I would hope it's not an "alternate" set of rules that reflect 80% of the core Pathfinder rules. It was hard enough unlearning some of the old 3.5 concepts as an experienced gamer; it's not exactly fair to ask a new gamer to forget big parts of what they've learned when the whole point was to introduce them to the full game in the first case.
I think it's possible to do subset without exactly forcing unlearning.
i.e. instead of having the huge table of weapons to choose from, pick a couple. That's good enough for a basic game.
Probably you cut some class features. If you want sorcerer to be your arcane caster representative, cut bloodline. If you want wizard, cut arcane bond / specialization.
You don't need more than a few spells for each class.
Instead of fighter getting a ton of feat choices, maybe he has only a few.
Etc. All/most of what's included could reflect the real rules, just, a small piece of them.
I'd probably do the same thing in terms of a setting, if any, too. Set it in Golarion (sp?), but pick one village or city or something. Flavor text can hint at a wider world but it doesn't need to be relevant to the game.
I think I'd aim for a game with (cardstock-ish, not heavy duty) dungeon tiles that could be arranged a few different ways, then include a couple different advantures that make use of them and the mini or mini-equivalents included. Maybe you offer a few more adventures using the same as free downloads here -- that saves the printing costs for including them and drives traffic to the website at the same time. You can talk about how people can make their own but I don't think that's really the focus of an intro game.
My choice:
Boxed set with:
Rules book
Adventure
flip-mat
paper minis or counters
***maybe dice****
As others have said, you only need 4 core races and 4 classes. Human, Elf, Dwarf, and Halfling. Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizard. I would think you could do a level range of 1-5, but I wouldn't try for 10.
Feat and spell lists could be pared down considerably, as could the weapon list (but equipment lists are necessary!).
Skills might be tricky unless you auto assign them based on class, just to keep it easy.
The adventure could have alot of modular components, and an appendix with 20 or 30 iconic monsters with guidelines on how to use them to build your own dungeons and adventures.
For an introductory product, the price point should ideally stay around $30 or less. $20 might be too cheap for Paizo's margins, but if you could hit $25 that would be about right.
Some suggestions seems like dream lists of What I Wish Came in A Deluxe Boxed Set instead of a product that would introduce Pathfinder to:
1. Young players
2. Players new to RPGs
3. Players new to PFRPG
By extension, it seems that such a product would appeal to
4. Players that would prefer a lighter rules set.
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In my opinion it should be something like this:
Boxed set
Introduction guide: booklet with short solo adventure, example of play, and general information on role playing games
+1. And I think it would be best if the adventure did not try to imitate the "new" red box; I think it would be better if the solo adventure would be a bit more simplified the way it worked in the "old" red box. Yes, it only featured a fighter and there were no rules for damage, but it worked brilliantly for most gamers I know; too much rules information or too many choices right from the start would have probably made me put it away and never start gaming. And the ending was so tragic... I truly hated Bargle! :)
As a librarian I'm a bit leery about boxed sets. In fact, most public libraries probably won't buy boxed sets these days -- it's just too much of a hassle to catalogue all the bits and pieces, and check/count them all each time such a box is returned (as a gamer I'm fine with them, and I think the format is ideal for an intro type of product). Maybe the intro rules could also be published as a book without tokens/maps/etcetera?
This is awesome news!
Pathfinder is a great game and we should seek to take advantage of introducing it to new players however we possibly can.
So, my wish list would be…
(1) Keep it simple. Easy rules with far less options than in the Core Rulebook. Consider, perhaps, saving things like skills and feats for the full-feathered version of the game.
(2) Complete compatibility. Don’t make players who play the basic set relearn how to play if they move on to the Core Rulebook (in other words, no “race as class” stuff which will confuse players). The transition (if they choose to make it) should be seamless, adding some rules/options, but not finding out that the way they learned was incompatible with the Core Rulebook.
(3) No minis. All of that tactical maneuvering is probably too much for a rules light game.
(4) Continuous line of products. Perhaps consider making the game an ongoing option to the full-feathered Core Rulebook. In other words, don’t make the focus of the set the transition into the Core Rulebook. Many gamers prefer “rules light” systems and might prefer to stick with the basic system. Continually support it with additional products and you may be able to tap into the market of the Old School Renaissance taking place in the gaming community.
(5) Hire Larry Elmore to do NEW artwork for the set(s), inside and out. ‘Nuff said! ;)
Hobbyists will always have their game (and even their preferred version of their game). Why can't there be a version for the casual player too?
Interesting point. So, would this be a subset of some of my four categories or a fifth?
This is awesome news!
(3) No minis. All of that tactical maneuvering is probably too much for a rules light game.
Yeah, I think I may be on board with this. At the very most, minis-optional.
I think depth instead of breadth is important - a few classes but being able to play each for seven or eight levels rather than lots of classes to only a couple of levels.
I don't think you should be scared of limiting choices severely if it's to be a true introductory game for newbies rather than a streamlined ruleset, for use by experienced players. In my (admittedly limited) experience, people who are new to RPGs don't want lots of options, they just want to get started. Even if you were going to put detailed character generation rules in, I'd include a dozen pre-made characters (a la shadowrun) for those who want to skip over the tedium and just start adventuring.
That's kind of based on my vague recollections as a ten year old of "graduating" from gamma world - "You want to be a mutant or a purist?" and gradually discovering more and more complicated systems with more and more options. If I'd had to make too many decisions in coming up with my first few characters I never would have continued in the hobby, I suspect*.
* Insert old man rant about it being even worse with "the kids of today" and their need for instant gratification.
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I posted this back in August on ENWorld, I'll repost here...
My suggestion for a basic box set would include the following:
1) A slim-downed ruled book covering 5 levels of at least the four base classes (fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard) and four races (human, elf , dwarf, halfling).
2) A module akin to Crypt of the Everflame
3) A set of dice and (if possible) preprinted paper miniatures
4) A certificate good for the download of a Core Rulebook PDF
5) A $30 price tag
If a boxed set came out without minis I would be ok with cardboard stand-ups. I prefer a 3-D representation over 2-D tokens.
I would very much like to see a set of plastic or otherwise minis that were set up for multiple monsters/NPCs like lots of goblins or orcs.
Hobbyists will always have their game (and even their preferred version of their game). Why can't there be a version for the casual player too?Interesting point. So, would this be a subset of some of my four categories or a fifth?I got news of this Basic Set from Grognardia, so thanks for posting that link to James' blog. As much as I would like to agree with him, I guess I'm actually advocating the complete opposite.
If it is meant to draw in completely new and young players and be sold outside of a hobby store, then cut the cord to 3e and make it a new, easy to learn rules set. However, it really will need to be a complete game, not an expensive advertisment for Pathfinder or a bunch of supplements.
If the Basic game is meant to draw in Old Schoolers or woo 4e'ers, I'm not sure what the point would be. I can't imagine why either group would be interested in a stripped down rules set, providing a just few class options that only go up to low, limited levels. The best points of Pathfinder (all of the charcter-building options and such) would not sell themselves in such a format.
Personally, I'd love a version of Pathfinder with Old School-like rules. But realistically, who else and what would you do with them, since none of Paizo's adventures and sourcebooks (their real publishing forte) would really be compatible with them.
Perhaps somebody at Paizo would like to clairify who the audience for this game would be.
I think that the purpose is to grow the game, but I'm curious how they are iding the target audience as well. I don't think Old Schoolers can be drawn as a group. Heck, they can't even agree on phrases (OSR, anyone?). As far as 4e players, do you mean people who have played 4e, or fans of 4e? I'd think that the latter group is unwooable as well.