(you really HAVE to do something about the 15 minute adventuring day if you want to be fair to 'endurance classes' like the fighter, monk, and rogue with respect to the nova-oriented classes)What ability is the Fighter, Monk, and Rogue using to set their current HP to infinite?
A ring of regeneration, boat loads of potion, have cleric with healing domain as you best friend, use magic skill and wands. There are tons of ways for the non caster classes to get healed.
For better or for worse 3.x healing is pretty much exclusively tied to Wands of CLW beyond a certain level (basically level 3). The cost per casting is 15 GP if you are purchasing it retail.
In most of the games I've ever played in or run joint usage consumables (wands of CLW, potions, most cheapo scrolls) come out of a general fund that each player contributes to. That way the burden of healing up the party between encounters is shared equally between all of the party. Further because consumables (shared healing resources, living expenses, etc) tend to be you know consumed I don't typically have wands of CLW count against the characters expected WBL.
In general that means that as long as they aren't alpha striking multiple EL+3 or +4 encounters in a single day HPs aren't a massive constraint on the adventuring day. A CR equivalent BBEG backed up by hordes of weenies for instance is a fun encounter that typically doesn't eat up a ton of Fighter resources due to their AC being high enough to shrug off most weenie level attacks.
Any of the descriptions of the magus I have seen in combat where it is remotely effective have forced it to use at least 1/3 to 1/2 of its spell resources, and the lower ammounts also tend to use its higher level spells. Many of the good damage dealing builds I have seen have also not followed the rules and used multiple swift actions, so you need to pay attention to that.
It can nova for a significant ammount of damage, but not for that many rounds in the day. Even when it does nova, it is not significantly outstripping a bard, who is also boosting allies, let alone a fighter, who can perform without spending non-HP resources. As others have said, casters are usually the first to need a rest, and the Magus is the worst in this regard that I have seen. The Magus is virtually unable to perform as a melee character at certain levels without spending consumable resources, of which it has relatively few when compared to other classes that need the same.
IMO, the Magus needs something to boost its power at levels where its hit bonus with Arcane Weapon are still lower than its class level. The bard has this at level 1 with inspire courage. The Rogue has this at level 1 with sneak attack. The Inquisitor has this with judgement. The Magus has to wait until level 4 for this, and it scales slower than the other classes. For low level Magus, this lack is highly noticable. I don't think this should be something it uses all the time, but something on the order of 3+int mod/day standard action for an extra 1d6 damage on a weapon strike would go a long way to fixing the class.
Overall, I think the class is most of the way there. It justs needs a little boost, especially at low levels.
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IMO, the Magus needs something to boost its power at levels where its hit bonus with Arcane Weapon are still lower than its class level. The bard has this at level 1 with inspire courage. The Rogue has this at level 1 with sneak attack. The Inquisitor has this with judgement. The Magus has to wait until level 4 for this, and it scales slower than the other classes. For low level Magus, this lack is highly noticable. I don't think this should be something it uses all the time, but something on the order of 3+int mod/day standard action for an extra 1d6 damage on a weapon strike would go a long way to fixing the class.
Would giving it access to wizard spell schools (the abilities not the spells) be of any use?
I'm not doubting this at all. I am very much aware of the importance of such wands, and their better cousins (Lesser Vigor). My point is simply there is no such thing as 'swinging your sword all day' as a very finite resource governs your ability to do this. So you're going to call for a rest just like everyone else. Which has already been established several posts back.
The problem largely stems from a bad bit of advice (pretty much developed way back in the 3.0 DMG) that indicated that good encounter design should be 4 PCs vs 1-2 foes.
The problem with this strategy of encounter design is that challenging encounters vs single foes generally tend to reliably bypass the fighter's primary defense (AC) and attack directly at his primary resource (HPs). Further unlike many other defenses AC is relatively all or nothing. You either miss the target or you hit the target there is no way to reduce the effect of a hit (short of using optional rules like Armor as DR). High AC can limit how much BAB can be dumped to power attack you but for the most part equivalent CR monsters can be expected to hit with their primary attack and generally 1 or more iteratives or secondary naturals (if they have them).
Encounter design that recognizes and plays to the strengths of the martial classes such as using a large number of CR -4 foes generally reduces the hit percentage on the martial classes to a pretty low number and allows them to do a bunch of room sweeping actions without really becoming a burden on party healing resources. Casters knowing that the encounter isn't a life or death init race don't have to focus on single target SoS/SoD spells, they can group debuff and party buff and you know conserve resources.
You can actually go through a decent number of encounters like this without actually forcing anyone to go Nova or forcing everyone to hang out in a Rope Trick for 8 hours every other encounter.
4e realized the default 3.x encounter design was problematic and has largely abandoned it outside of rare Solo setpieces. I definitely think Pathfinder DMs could do the same and some of the issues with class balance would be reduced.
Any of the descriptions of the magus I have seen in combat where it is remotely effective have forced it to use at least 1/3 to 1/2 of its spell resources, and the lower ammounts also tend to use its higher level spells. Many of the good damage dealing builds I have seen have also not followed the rules and used multiple swift actions, so you need to pay attention to that.
It can nova for a significant ammount of damage, but not for that many rounds in the day. Even when it does nova, it is not significantly outstripping a bard, who is also boosting allies, let alone a fighter, who can perform without spending non-HP resources. As others have said, casters are usually the first to need a rest, and the Magus is the worst in this regard that I have seen. The Magus is virtually unable to perform as a melee character at certain levels without spending consumable resources, of which it has relatively few when compared to other classes that need the same.
IMO, the Magus needs something to boost its power at levels where its hit bonus with Arcane Weapon are still lower than its class level. The bard has this at level 1 with inspire courage. The Rogue has this at level 1 with sneak attack. The Inquisitor has this with judgement. The Magus has to wait until level 4 for this, and it scales slower than the other classes. For low level Magus, this lack is highly noticable. I don't think this should be something it uses all the time, but something on the order of 3+int mod/day standard action for an extra 1d6 damage on a weapon strike would go a long way to fixing the class.
Overall, I think the class is most of the way there. It justs needs a little boost, especially at low levels.
I found the Magus also needs a bit that high levels around level 17 and up to be exact. The usefulness of arcane weapon diminishes greatly at that point on as you get weapons greater than the +5. I found it hard to hit level appropriate encounters with an AC in the high 30s or low 40s. Still not useless, far from it actually. Being able to threaten and cast spells provides the rogue with an ability to sneak attack though the rogue was in about the same situation for hitting.
Would giving it access to wizard spell schools (the abilities not the spells) be of any use?IMO, the Magus needs something to boost its power at levels where its hit bonus with Arcane Weapon are still lower than its class level. The bard has this at level 1 with inspire courage. The Rogue has this at level 1 with sneak attack. The Inquisitor has this with judgement. The Magus has to wait until level 4 for this, and it scales slower than the other classes. For low level Magus, this lack is highly noticable. I don't think this should be something it uses all the time, but something on the order of 3+int mod/day standard action for an extra 1d6 damage on a weapon strike would go a long way to fixing the class.
Personally, I don't think so. Most of those abilities are not significantly greater than the Magus attacking, as far as damage boosts are concerned, and the others are not thematic. I mean, a 1d4 magic missile is ok, but would you rather use that or a longbow? Same with conjuration's 1d6 touch attack. I could see the Illusionist or Universalis's seeing use, but not most of the others. These abilities are designed to give the wizard something to do when not casting spells at low levels. The magus already has something to do. What he needs is the ability to compete with others who are also doing it. He doesn't have to be better, or even as good as. He just needs to be compotent enough, and I don't think he is there yet.
No, the problem is that the Fighter is unable to get enough AC to be reliably protected against physical attacks from equal level opposition. Which is what that encounter design indicates. 4 level x PCs vs 1 CR x enemy as the typical encounter, and if there are more enemies they are individually weaker.
Every other game I played, be it a tabletop game, a video game, or an MMORPG has been able to make physical defense do something, and to do a lot for those who are supposed to be taking hits. The fact D&D does not is a serious balance flaw. And since most of AC comes from magic items, which come from wealth physical defense is one of the biggest things to suffer in any 'low magic' game.
Conversely if you start giving out more than the typical wealth which...
I've seen fighters with some pretty high AC that required level appropriate encounters to roll like 18s to hit them. Of course some encounters have much higher to hit but for most aren't. The fighter has to be built for defense though. That means going weapon and shield style. Just with mundane Full Plate, Heavy Shield they can have an AC 30 (Mitheral FP 9, Dodge1, Mitheral Heavy Shield 2, Shield focus 2, Dex 4). Then add on the magic after like +2 armor and shield, and ring of protection +1. This for an 8th level fighter and you have a AC of 35. Of course you blew half you wealth by level on armor to do this and you offense is suffering.
At AC 35 a Barbed Devil needs 17 or better to hit you, pretty good defense for APL +3 encounter.
The thing is most people don't go defense. They go for max DPR which pure offense. That usually works better because dead enemies don't get a chance to hit you.
I found the Magus also needs a bit that high levels around level 17 and up to be exact. The usefulness of arcane weapon diminishes greatly at that point on as you get weapons greater than the +5. I found it hard to hit level appropriate encounters with an AC in the high 30s or low 40s. Still not useless, far...Any of the descriptions of the magus I have seen in combat where it is remotely effective have forced it to use at least 1/3 to 1/2 of its spell resources, and the lower ammounts also tend to use its higher level spells. Many of the good damage dealing builds I have seen have also not followed the rules and used multiple swift actions, so you need to pay attention to that.
It can nova for a significant ammount of damage, but not for that many rounds in the day. Even when it does nova, it is not significantly outstripping a bard, who is also boosting allies, let alone a fighter, who can perform without spending non-HP resources. As others have said, casters are usually the first to need a rest, and the Magus is the worst in this regard that I have seen. The Magus is virtually unable to perform as a melee character at certain levels without spending consumable resources, of which it has relatively few when compared to other classes that need the same.
IMO, the Magus needs something to boost its power at levels where its hit bonus with Arcane Weapon are still lower than its class level. The bard has this at level 1 with inspire courage. The Rogue has this at level 1 with sneak attack. The Inquisitor has this with judgement. The Magus has to wait until level 4 for this, and it scales slower than the other classes. For low level Magus, this lack is highly noticable. I don't think this should be something it uses all the time, but something on the order of 3+int mod/day standard action for an extra 1d6 damage on a weapon strike would go a long way to fixing the class.
Overall, I think the class is most of the way there. It justs needs a little boost, especially at low levels.
I agree. 15+ it starts to run into issues because his normal weapon is too high and it no longer scales. I like the idea of then giving your secondary weapon Dancing and having annother primary weapon you use, but then you run into issues of not having your arcane focus to cast spells. But then you are still giving up the one thing that is keeping your hit and damage competative, and I don't know how much you get out of it. I haven't done the math to see if it is worth it, I just like the idea.
No, the problem is that the Fighter is unable to get enough AC to be reliably protected against physical attacks from equal level opposition. Which is what that encounter design indicates. 4 level x PCs vs 1 CR x enemy as the typical encounter, and if there are more enemies they are individually weaker.
Every other game I played, be it a tabletop game, a video game, or an MMORPG has been able to make physical defense do something, and to do a lot for those who are supposed to be taking hits. The fact D&D does not is a serious balance flaw. And since most of AC comes from magic items, which come from wealth physical defense is one of the biggest things to suffer in any 'low magic' game.
Conversely if you start giving out more than the typical wealth which...
I've seen fighters with some pretty high AC that required level appropriate encounters to roll like 18s to hit them. Of course some encounters have much higher to hit but for most aren't. The fighter has to be built for defense though. That means going weapon and shield style. Just with mundane Full Plate, Heavy Shield they can have an AC 30 (Mitheral FP 9, Dodge1, Mitheral Heavy Shield 2, Shield focus 2, Dex 4). Then add on the magic after like +2 armor and shield, and ring of protection +1. This for an 8th level fighter and you have a AC of 35. Of course you blew half you wealth by level on armor to do this and you offense is suffering.
At AC 35 a Barbed Devil needs 17 or better to hit you, pretty good defense for APL +3 encounter.
The thing is most people don't go defense. They go for max DPR which pure offense. That usually works better because dead enemies don't get a chance to hit you.
Get rid of the 3 feats and send him up the TWF/shield bash feat tree and you have a standard build with solid DPR. The Barbed Devil still needs a 14 to hit. At AC 32, your average CR7 is hitting on a 19, and you go up to CR13 before they are even hitting you half the time. Problem is, from here your defense will scale slightly slower than monster offense, in general. Even still, it is not too hard to get an AC in the 50s by level 20, giving the average CR20 a run for their money. When a Balor needs a nat20 to hit you, which is not hard to do, your AC is solid.
At CR 20: Pit fiends have +32 to hit, +30 with their secondaries. Of course, their spell abilities are more dangerous than their melee.
A tarn linnorm has +30/+25 for secondaries
A balor has +31, but his multiple attacks are iteratives that go down to +16. Again their spell abilities are the real killers
I omitted the gold dragon (you're not fighting him are you?).To have the effect of around 50% physical damage reduction against these you'd need an AC around 40-42. An AC around 50 would repel most of their physical damage. Your problem isn't so much your AC, but your saves at this point. He's not going to melee you most likely, he's going to hit you with things like blasphemy, dominate monster, et al. He might melee your wizard though.
Got to say that targetting saves at those levels is generally a losing proposition -- even against the fighter who is probably the weakest at making saves in the game (possible exception for the rogue).
Level 20 fighter = +6 will +5 cloak of resistance + 2 iron will + 2 headband of Wisom (+4) + 2 for starting wisdom of 14 +1 luckstone +1 (competence bonus Ioun Stone) = +19.
The balor and pit fiend both have DC 27 maximum while the green has a DC 24 maximum for his spell like abilities. So you are looking at a 45% or better chance to succeed on your save throw before you do anything fancy.
Actually, I have run the numbers before. Monster damage scales at a different rate to their hit and your HP. You actually need less AC than a 50% hit rate to their primary attack to be able to survive. We have also discussedhow much damage you need to do to stay effective. Honestly, the ammount of damage you need to be able to dish out to stay relevant is not difficult.
Now, you may not agree with some of the assumptions used for the baseline of those, but from what I can tell they work out very well in practical play.
At CR 20: Pit fiends have +32 to hit, +30 with their secondaries. Of course, their spell abilities are more dangerous than their melee.
A tarn linnorm has +30/+25 for secondaries
A balor has +31, but his multiple attacks are iteratives that go down to +16. Again their spell abilities are the real killers
I omitted the gold dragon (you're not fighting him are you?).To have the effect of around 50% physical damage reduction against these you'd need an AC around 40-42. An AC around 50 would repel most of their physical damage. Your problem isn't so much your AC, but your saves at this point. He's not going to melee you most likely, he's going to hit you with things like blasphemy, dominate monster, et al. He might melee your wizard though.
Pit fiend = caster.
Balor = caster.
Don't have my books in front of me but the tarn whatever sounds like a caster.
You might not be fighting a gold dragon, but there's plenty of other colors. And they all manage similar to hit numbers taking into consideration they have a full compliment of feats, can buff themselves at only a few levels below par, and probably have at least one useful item in their horde they can slip on (dragons can use any magic item that isn't a weapon, or a suit of armor... barding is fine, just not humanoid armor for obvious reasons).None of those outsiders are going to melee you. They have instant win spells, why would they? The dragons might melee you, and with to hits in the 50s they'll be hitting every single time, barring natural 1s. Tarrasque? 50s.
Yes, and their instant win spells all rely on a save, which you have at least a 50/50 of passing at that level. CR20s are considered challenges for an entire party of 4, so the ability to solo one is not your goal. But a single classed fighter stands a significant chace of doing it. You're new to the boards, so I will link you to fighterman. He is an archer, but he has a significant chance to solo a balor.
Also, the Dragon does not have hits in the 50s. To get a 50/50 against it, you need an AC of 47 for the primary and 45 for the secondary attacks. It has a +36 on its primaries. So that AC of 40-42 will block at 1/4 of the hits on average. A fighter can survive its full attack for at least 1 round, possibly 2. Since the fighter will have backup in a party of 4, in the round or 2 that he is in melee with it he needs to be able to deal ~100 points of damage to it. More would be preferable, since he is the primary damage dealer.
You can easily get an AC of 42 without a shield. +5 Mithril Platemail, +8 dex (15 start, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement), +5 ROP, +5ANA does it for you.
The dragon will bump his AC up using his 1st level spells to 51. A level 20 single longsword wielding fighter will have trouble doing this, but he can. With a +11 str (15+2race +4 level +6 enhancement +5 inherrent), weapon focuses and specs, power attack, improved critical, and a +5 weapon, you can get up to 40.5 damge/hit and a +36 to hit. Get haste through one of the many ways to do it at that level, and you can bring your DPR against AC 51 to 49 on your full attack. Keep in mind, this is pretty much the worste attack mode possible and I am dealing with a character with nothing in the off hand. It would not be hard to hit 80.
And note, Tarn Linnorm is not a caster at all. It has a breath weapon, truesight, freedom of movement, imunity to flanking, one of the nastiest poisons in the game, and the ability to make it so you cannot heal. It is an aquatic dragon, but has no spells.
Honestly that's a 50/50 without trying or really looking. I've built/seen fighters with MUCH better saves than that just using core stuff and 20 point buy, without sacrificing on AC, to hit or damage.
And again that's the *weakest* save throw person in the game. You change that race to dwarf your save throws are going up against those monsters by +3.
The fighter and barbarian both have class features to have an attack bonus greater than their level at most levels. The Magus doesn't seem to be about this at all.*
It's not just the fighter and barbarian. The paladin has smite evil. The ranger has favored enemy.
Many posters on this board either don't realize (or don't care) that full BAB by itself does not a bruiser make.
* This message supported by the "Give Magus Full BAB Foundation".
[QUOTE="cfalcon"
It's not just the fighter and barbarian. The paladin has smite evil. The ranger has favored enemy.Many posters on this board either don't realize (or don't care) that full BAB by itself does not a bruiser make.
The bonus to attacks is common, and RD is right, and we all know I almost never agree with RD. ;)
I think we need a fighter that knows how to cast, and a caster that knows how to fight so everyone can have what they want. I think a good idea is to let the Magus have a choice of paths to follow kind of life the ranger. One path allows him to be more caster oriented, while the other allows him to be more fighter oriented.
Yes, and their instant win spells all rely on a save, which you have at least a 50/50 of passing at that level. CR20s are considered challenges for an entire party of 4, so the ability to solo one is not your goal. But a single classed fighter stands a significant chace of doing it. You're new to the boards, so I will link you to fighterman. He is an archer, but he has a significant chance to solo a balor.And a 50/50 chance you die. Every single round. Which gives you a 1/4 chance of walking away from the typical encounter, which should be no problem with you at all. If you're in one of those slow parties that need 5 rounds, your chance of leaving a single battle intact are around 3%. I want you to think long and hard about what that means about campaign longevity.
It's odd that you link a SGT yet don't seem to understand what one is. In order to count as a level 20 character, he needs to be able to win vs level 20 stuff 50% of the time. And not just a Balor either (Balors are actually one of the weakest CR 20s) but some dragons and such too.
How much damage per round does Mr. Fighter Archer put out at level 20? And how does he deal with the common archery negation moves? If you don't know, then chances are Mr. Fighter Archer isn't nearly as good as you think he is. Which is why I'm not going to look at that thread as I've already seen what several people consider acceptable standards around here and quickly realized anything that met those standards would just die in the second fight of the campaign instead of the first.
When setting a baseline, you can't lowball.
And that means you can't pretend dragons don't have any and all of the things they do have, and that I said they have and instead pretend all they have is BAB and Str. I'm not pretending the Fighter is naked and featless, am I? You also can't barely hit the level 10 benchmark at level 20 and claim victory. The level 20 benchmark is 275, FYI.
And that tarn whatever sounds like a level 12 enemy who got labeled...
So killing a Balor in 2 rounds isn't good enough for you... The thread goes fairly well into standard tactics for the Balor. If you don't want to read it, its your fault. Just don't shout that the fighter is gimped.
And against the dragon's base AC of 39, you hit the benchmark. That benchmark is also for fighting against CR18 monsters, base AC of 33, which is standard by the book. Against the dragon's fully buffed AC of 51, you don't. Its amasing what going from an auto-hit to 30% chance on your primary attack will do to lower your DPR. When fighting against a dragon, you can assume that 1 or 2 buff spells will be put out. Inspire courage alone will bring your DPR from 40 to 100. That is why you fight things as a team.