True Resurrection spell components and Diamond values


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata.

Both of these questions are related to the Raise Dead (C 5), Resurrection (C 7), and True Resurrection (C 9) chain of spells.

First question: both Raise Dead and Resurrection require a M component in the form of a diamond (5,000 gp and 10,000 gp, respectively). M components are used up by a single casting of a spell. The two spells also require the V, S, and DF components. True Resurrection requires V, S, M, and DF components too, but the M component is not specified while the DF is specified as being a diamond worth 25,000 gp. Either that's one very expensive holy symbol, or the diamond should have been listed as being the M component. I suspect the latter to be the truth, but would like some verification.

Second question: do these M component diamonds (5,000 gp, 10,000 gp, and 25,000 gp) have to be single diamonds worth the listed amount, or can a cleric simply amass (for a single casting of such a spell) a number of diamonds, the total value of which equals the required amount (like in 3.5)? (The same question could be applied to any similar M component.)


Bellona wrote:


Second question: do these M component diamonds (5,000 gp, 10,000 gp, and 25,000 gp) have to be single diamonds worth the listed amount, or can a cleric simply amass (for a single casting of such a spell) a number of diamonds, the total value of which equals the required amount (like in 3.5)?

Single diamonds.

"diamond worth x,xxx gp", not "diamonds worth x,xxx gp"

I believe the plural was removed intentionally rather than accidentally, but I could be wrong.


Are wrote:
Bellona wrote:


Second question: do these M component diamonds (5,000 gp, 10,000 gp, and 25,000 gp) have to be single diamonds worth the listed amount, or can a cleric simply amass (for a single casting of such a spell) a number of diamonds, the total value of which equals the required amount (like in 3.5)?

Single diamonds.

"diamond worth x,xxx gp", not "diamonds worth x,xxx gp"

I believe the plural was removed intentionally rather than accidentally, but I could be wrong.

Wow! I hadn't looked at those spells as no one in our game is high enough level yet. In 3.5, it used to be that value worth of diamond dust, changing it to a single diamond of that value raises the difficulty of acquiring the material component significantly.

Pooh


The real question is, for those DMs who follow the treasure value per level for PCs religiously, do you count those expensive components (diamonds) as part of that casters appropriate treasure for his level? Considering those diamonds are most likely going to be used for raise dead, resurrection spells for other people?


So could you use "Fabricate" spell to change lots of little diamonds or diamond dust of Equal or greater value into one Diamond. ?

Sounds like it as it can effect minerals (reduced volume), and components (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the items to be created).

Ok failing that, let your player research a new spell to do just that.


It would seem the Divine Focus requirement would be a typo. AFAIK no other spell has a costly DF, costly regular focus maybe, but not holy symbol. Also, a diamond is not a suitable Divine Focus for most divine casters, a Holy Symbol made of diamond perhaps, but it doesn't sat diamond holy symbol, just diamond.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

FWIW, my copy of the PDF says:

Components V, S, DF, M (diamond worth 25,000 gp)

That says to me that the material component is a 25k gp diamond. The only differences between it & the Components line of raise dead & resurrection are that the latter list the DF after the M & parenthetical note.


Bellona wrote:
Second question: do these M component diamonds (5,000 gp, 10,000 gp, and 25,000 gp) have to be single diamonds worth the listed amount, or can a cleric simply amass (for a single casting of such a spell) a number of diamonds, the total value of which equals the required amount (like in 3.5)? (The same question could be applied to any similar M component.)

I believe it's single diamonds. Also, I think these spells are the reason diamonds are worth so much in D&D. A 25,000gp diamond isn't going to be (IMO) staggeringly large, it's the use that's going to make it so valuable. I'd almost imagine that gems just not big enough to be used for Raise Dead (5000gp) are FAR less valuable than 5000gp (a carat shy, lose 75% value, heh). It would also make using diamonds worth 5000gp in jewelry either insane or the ultimate in ostentation.


As noted above, 25,000gp diamond is actually rather easy to get, provided you can find one hundred 250gp diamonds and have the fabricate spell.


mdt wrote:

As noted above, 25,000gp diamond is actually rather easy to get, provided you can find one hundred 250gp diamonds and have the fabricate spell.

I don't think fabricate can do that. Fabricate seems to do what craft skills do. Craft skills don't fuse diamonds together. Besides which, diamond value isn't just mass, it's cut and quality, and a 25000gp diamond is probably a lot lighter than 100 250gp diamonds. Also, you'd need Craft: Lapidary/Gemcutter to pull this off effectively (high quality).


if you could use fabricate to glue together several lower diamonds, you should even be able to create a diamond out of coal (carbon), because that's what it is.

If you are right that the diamonds get their worth by the use of resurrection, then the market is highly unstable. I know, Pathfinder is a bit simplistic, and that ain't so bad. But if you play it realisticly then your characters buy a 25000 diamond, a week later when they want to cast something, you tell them that the market value is only 24000 and the spells fails.
I bet it would be funny the first time you do it, but then the players will return next time with pitchforks and torches.

Contributor

If the metaphysics of the world are such that diamonds of particular GP values are needed for Resurrections and Wishes, you can bet that the jewelers of the world are going to specifically cut all stones in precisely these denominations. Saves a lot of bother, and the queen can use the 5K stones for earring, the 10K for a pendant, and the 25K stone as a topper for her scepter until such time as she has to sacrifice her jewels for the good of the kingdom to fuel various spells.

You can also bring back (for your home games) the old 1st ed "Jewel of Flawlessness" that increases the value of stones its placed with. One assumes the world's diamond merchants have harnessed this technology and use it to tip stones slightly under the spell price breaks slightly over, as few will want a 24,900 GP diamond since it's basically a waste.


*) If your the GM, just change it to Diamond Dust, or spider eyes, or puppy dog tales.

*) Create a New spell: Change X amount of gold gems into diamonds worth y

*) Make finding High cost gems a lot more common in your Fantasy game world that what it is in the real world. (( or just do not have de-beer type monopoly on diamonds; jacking the price up by a factor of 10, like we do in the real world)).

*) If your not the GM, well tough luck......Just an incentive to GM your own games.

Let the arguments begin over RAW vs Fun. :)


coyote6 wrote:

FWIW, my copy of the PDF says:

Components V, S, DF, M (diamond worth 25,000 gp)

That says to me that the material component is a 25k gp diamond. The only differences between it & the Components line of raise dead & resurrection are that the latter list the DF after the M & parenthetical note.

Well, I'm stuck with a first printing dead-tree version of the PFCR, but I do keep up with the issued errata files. If your PDF has that change, then it looks as though some changes have been put into the PDF which haven't been put into the errata file downloads. Which makes me wonder what other differences there are ...

With regard to some of the other answers: that's an interesting use of the Fabricate spell. I'll have to consider which interpretation I'll accept in my games.


Richard Leonhart wrote:


If you are right that the diamonds get their worth by the use of resurrection, then the market is highly unstable. I know, Pathfinder is a bit simplistic, and that ain't so bad. But if you play it realisticly then your characters buy a 25000 diamond, a week later when they want to cast something, you tell them that the market value is only 24000 and the spells fails.

I'm sort of assuming that the quoted figure are the long-term average prices for stones of a requisite size and quality. Diamonds will be treated like any other commodity, rather than a luxury item. What you actually manage to buy/sell them for should be irrelevant to the spell, but every caster knows you need a '1 carat diamond' for Raise Dead and those sell for around 5000gp. Meanwhile, 1/2 carat diamonds probably go for 500gp - retail demand for stones below Raise Dead standards is going to be a lot lower.

I can't see the market being unstable, though, quite the contrary. D&D's shoddy economic modeling aside, there are plenty of wealthy non-adventurers out there to whom 5000gp, while not a drop in the bucket, is well worth investing in case of some fatal accident - similar to what I'd expect for common folk and bottom-end Cure potions (for near-fatal accidents). There will be occasional supply/demand spikes (wars, mine closures, new mines, etc), but the norm will prevail.


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Tangential question:

IRL, the price of gold is about $1296 per troy ounce. There are 14.583 troy ounces in a pound.

In Pathfinder, a pound of gold is worth 50 gp.

This means that if a Pathfinder gold piece existed in the real world, it would be worth about $378 (1296 x 14.538 / 50).

So a 5000 gp diamond is worth* about 1.89 million dollars, a 10,000 gp daimond is worth* about 3.78 million dollars, and a 25,000 gp daimond is worth* about 9.45 million dollars. What do such expensive diamonds even look like? Even assuming it had flawless clarity, ideal color, and was perfectly cut, how large would a diamond need to be to be worth so much?

*Of course, in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, diamonds have a different worth than in the real world due to the use of diamonds as spell components and the lack of DeBeers. Please ignore these factors for the purposes of this question.


catmandrake wrote:

What do such expensive diamonds even look like? Even assuming it had flawless clarity, ideal color, and was perfectly cut, how large would a diamond need to be to be worth so much?

Top 10 Most Expensive Diamonds in the World

There are only a few diamonds that are large enough and perfect enough to be valued at 3 million or more. That puts some perspective on this line of spells :)

Contributor

Plus, diamonds go with everything.

Look, here's even a photo reference for Shelyn, the Eternal Rose, modeling diamonds:

http://famousdiamonds.tripod.com/mouawadmonderadiamond.html


Bellona wrote:
coyote6 wrote:

FWIW, my copy of the PDF says:

Components V, S, DF, M (diamond worth 25,000 gp)

That says to me that the material component is a 25k gp diamond. The only differences between it & the Components line of raise dead & resurrection are that the latter list the DF after the M & parenthetical note.

Well, I'm stuck with a first printing dead-tree version of the PFCR, but I do keep up with the issued errata files. If your PDF has that change, then it looks as though some changes have been put into the PDF which haven't been put into the errata file downloads. Which makes me wonder what other differences there are ...

With regard to some of the other answers: that's an interesting use of the Fabricate spell. I'll have to consider which interpretation I'll accept in my games.

I've noticed the same error in my First Printing book, and the fact that the PDF has been effectively fixed but the Errata doesn't show the correction (the PDF basically swapped M with DF, fixing the mistake).

I've made a post here mentioning the discovery you made (I think I would have never noticed by myself :) ...).


It doesn't pay to look too closely at the "value" of it. We should just assume an abstract "worth" and go from there.. otherwise..

well.

you want to raise a friend from the dead. Someone has a fingernail size diamond and will sell it to you for 25k.

Its worth 25k to you- to raise your friend from the dead.. nevermind that the diamond may actually be worth 1-2k "market price". To You the worth is.. whatever it needs to be to cast the spell.

You can't bring in the stability of the economy into it without also introducing that element.

Its just a hunk of shiny carbon afterall.

That's not even counting the effect of tryin to buy one in a small town compared to a big town where the actual value of it could be different depending on who is there to buy it. a 25k diamond in a fishing village where the diamond is actually *worthless* would be quiet different than one in a metropolis where the pretty nobles think they are worth something because they sparkle..

-S


Selgard wrote:
It doesn't pay to look too closely at the "value" of it. We should just assume an abstract "worth" and go from there.. otherwise..

D&D has always assumed a stable pricing structure - for just about everything. Magic items have set costs, gems have set values, and supply and demand seldom rear their ugly head (i.e. unless the GM says so). This is especially unrealistic with regards to things like art and gems, but like you said, running the other way invites nightmares.

That said, things like diamonds have an actual use in D&D aside from being shiny hunks of carbon. Diamond dust is used in several spells and quality diamonds can be used to raise the dead. Assuming that there's a market for such services (hell yeah!), demand will encourage supply to the point where prices should stabilize. Dwarves will mine diamond fields. Wizards will invade the elemental plane of earth. Adventurers will hunt the increasingly rare Diamond Spiders of Zorg. Efreet will wish them into being. The more the price climbs the harder these efforts will be pursued until supply and demand stabilize (b/c nobody actually controls the market like a modern day DeBeers).

Point being, diamonds aren't art objects in D&D, they're commodities like sheep or salt or iron ore. I certainly wish the game designers has written it thus: "(Raise Dead) requires a one carat diamond, normally worth 5000gp." That would leave lots of room to negotiate price, but you know how big it has to be.

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