Because of the outdoor focus of Kingmaker, a large percentage of the encounters are limited to 1/day. Especially the exploration portion of the adventure path.
Thus, my group "blows" all their resources (biggest spells, etc) against the encounter, knowing they can sleep right after. This is collectively known as the D&D 15 minute work day. And while it is prevalent in most adventures, it is really noticeable in Kingmaker.
Have others run into this same problem?
Sure, I can keep throwing in 'extra' random encounters, but that isn't a tactic I prefer (DM against the players vibe). Have other DM's beefed-up the encounters to counter this tactic?
I sometimes beef up an encounter by a CR or so, but generally I don't worry about it. The balance comes in when they run into one of the mini-dungeons. If they're not careful, they quickly find themselves in a pickle because they've gotten used to resting between fights. In general I find the ability to resupply quickly (and perhaps an economy to loot when needed) a little more problematic, but not very. It seems to always even out within a few sessions, and after a few sessions of smooth sailing, they run smack dab into something that bloodies their noses nicely.
You might add a few more "mini-dungeons," perhaps by building off encounters already there (stick a location encounter inside a ruined tower, for instance). I found the Candlemere island encounter a little on the dull side, and am transplanting "From Shore to Sea" to pad it out. I know others have discussed making similar changes, the Candlemere being a very good spot for this sort of thing, though I'm sure there are other entertaining twists one could add. One could even stick something like "Masters of the Fallen Fortress," or the classic "B1: Into the Unknown" into an unexplored hill or mountain hex for a nice side-dungeon.
That all being said, if the party enjoys blowing the bad away with their biggest and make a habit of it, play with that. Sooner or later they may just waist their firepower early on in one of the tougher sections and discover - too late - that was just the tip of the iceberg.
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I was worried about that, but I now see it as a feature rather than a bug. It means I don't have to feel guilty about rolling the odd Shambling Mound and Will-O'-Whisp. Players can blow everything just to try and survive the encounter, or stomp all over a weaker encounter and feel like Badass Heroes (tm).
I was worried about that, but I now see it as a feature rather than a bug. It means I don't have to feel guilty about rolling the odd Shambling Mound and Will-O'-Whisp. Players can blow everything just to try and survive the encounter, or stomp all over a weaker encounter and feel like Badass Heroes (tm).
^This.
I've found that (for my group of players, at least) one significant encounter per day is almost too much for them. At the weekend, Vesket and his lizardfolk braves almost did them in.
I've noticed it. It hasn't really been an issue since my party doesn't have an arcane caster, and they seem to cause many of the issues. The inquisitor rarely uses his judgement, even though he could, just in case they come up against annother owlbear in the night. My players rarely blow half their wad.
I think you need to scare your players with a second major "random" encounter a couple times. That will teach them not to blow their load.
Creative Director
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Is your party enjoying this? If so, then I put it forth that it's not a problem.
In fact, the sandbox nature of the exploration elements mean that it's relatively easy for the PCs to stumble into a REALLY tough encounter if they're not careful. And on top of that, when you're running Kingmaker, you really REALLY should utilize wandering monsters during exploration. Not only does this help to make things feel more alive and dangerous, but if the PCs are worried that they could run into a band of trolls or a wyvern or whatever at any point during the day, they'll need to keep that in mind when they're doing their 15 minute days. If your group is basically doing 1 fight and then sleeping... I would absolutely be hitting the group with monsters while they slept in the bush. Because that's what monsters do... they menace you when you sleep!
Is your party enjoying this? If so, then I put it forth that it's not a problem.
(snip)
It's been a blast so far.
I'll toss out one advantage I've enjoyed over the pacing is that it reduces the need for a dedicated healer in the party. At least for the early levels we got by without ever feeling forced to stick someone with being forced to be a Cleric or other dedicated healer, giving the players a much more fluid and natural feel for party organization. As play has progressed, key players have chosen to add healing to their purviews. We have a Ranger 4/Cleric 2 devotee of Erastil, who chose to multi-class because as Rangers can act as Priests of that god, he's been acting HIgh Priest since the Kingdom's founding - the Cleric aspect thus developed in play, not as a mandate that the party have a band-aid station. We have had several other characters with at least one level of Witch and the Healing Hex, so healing is both spread out and never in short supply, nor is it a resource lost when something unfortunate happens to a key pc.
It's been a blast so far.
I'll toss out one advantage I've enjoyed over the pacing is that it reduces the need for a dedicated healer in the party.
snippage
we have no dedicated healer. there is a druid 7, bard 7, a celestial sorceress who can heal with an ability, and some multiclass levels in a few things in other pcs (maybe ranger 2 and someone with inquisitor 4)
the cracks are beginning to show though
2 party members are currently blind in Varnhold for example
and they have no big 4d8+7 or 4d6 radius heals to call on
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It's been a blast so far.
I'll toss out one advantage I've enjoyed over the pacing is that it reduces the need for a dedicated healer in the party.
snippage
we have no dedicated healer. there is a druid 7, bard 7, a celestial sorceress who can heal with an ability, and some multiclass levels in a few things in other pcs (maybe ranger 2 and someone with inquisitor 4)
the cracks are beginning to show though
2 party members are currently blind in Varnhold for example
and they have no big 4d8+7 or 4d6 radius heals to call on
My party at first didn't have a dedicated healer, the rogue died he rolled up a cleric of Saranrae. It was a random encounter while they were camping for the night. They are now a lot more careful.
In fact, the sandbox nature of the exploration elements mean that it's relatively easy for the PCs to stumble into a REALLY tough encounter if they're not careful. And on top of that, when you're running Kingmaker, you really REALLY should utilize wandering monsters during exploration. Not only does this help to make things feel more alive and dangerous, but if the PCs are worried that they could run into a band of trolls or a wyvern or whatever at any point during the day, they'll need to keep that in mind when they're doing their 15 minute days. If your group is basically doing 1 fight and then sleeping... I would absolutely be hitting the group with monsters while they slept in the bush. Because that's what monsters do... they menace you when you sleep!
This. Wandering monsters are a key to the feeling of Kingmaker wilderness exploration. The party should never be confidant they can sleep through the night safely.
In addition, if the party decides to rest immediately after an encounter and spellcasters don't regain spells until the next day, then an encounter early during a day means the party will waste a day resting and loose a full day of exporation.
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I have not had this issue, and recently stopped rolling for random encounters int the Greenbelt.
Honestly, unless I want to stat up lots of named NPC's or throw Troll after Troll at the party, there's not much that can stand against them.
That being said, I DO advance pretty much everything, or add another 1-2 mooks in large # combats.
The reason being, I have 6 players who are VERY good at designing fight-winning-characters. It's not yet reached the level of "Rocket-Tag," only because I've been deliberately down-grading their usual level of optimization.
With the new maps coming up, random encounters will once again return.
(in game reason: the party is being trailed by a huge pack of wolves & other wilderness animals, prior to a huge Party Druid vs. Champions of Erastil fight coming up)
Besides wandering monsters, are you making the party make their survival checks? Kingmaker is a game that really favors the RP muscles you're not used, e.g., knowledge (mining).
Also, if I remember correctly, there is some flavor text about a certain monster/s that start tricking the party at night to the party think there are really big bad wizard/creatures out there.
You may also consider instituting a timing device to get them moving. Two devices particularly suited for Kingmaker are weather and season. Another one is that more of the beasties start becoming aware of and prepare for the party.
Ooooh, another plot device could be the Sword Lords becoming impatient with the party's progress and start threatening to replace them. You could even send in a competing party who starts to soak up treasure and experience (at a slow, slow rate).
Also, if I remember correctly, there is some flavor text about a certain monster/s that start tricking the party at night to the party think there are really big bad wizard/creatures out there.
This was somewhat my thought, specifically with the "merry pranksters" that are about. By taking it that way, the party is turning itself into an easy target.
Then again, I'm not so bothered with the idea, at least early in the AP. As things progressed, I imagine that matters of state will prevent this from happening with any ease. The leisurely pace is a bit harder when you start to look like an absentee landlord...
I'm considering increasing the percentage chance of a random encounter. Maybe up to 25%. I don't think a 1-in-4 chance of encountering something in a 12-mile hex is unreasonable.
I was basically wondering about beefing-up the written encounters, instead of adding more encounters (wandering monsters).
As stated in my opening post, it would be poor DMing if I threw a random encounter after every set encounter - just because my players use all their resources to make the first encounter easy. (However, as suggested in posts above, I may do it once/twice just to keep them on their toes).
Secondly, my PCs are already way ahead of the XP curve for the adventure (River Runs Red is pretty generous with quest/kingdom xp on top of regular encounter xp). So beefing-up existing encounters is better than adding encounters to keep them in the proper xp zone.
I'm considering increasing the percentage chance of a random encounter. Maybe up to 25%. I don't think a 1-in-4 chance of encountering something in a 12-mile hex is unreasonable.
id advise against this
my party are probably ahead of the loop by about a level, even just using the normal random encounter %
there is plenty of xp
its the treasure that can feel a little low at times
there is plenty of xp
its the treasure that can feel a little low at times
I'd been feeling that as well, though my players haven't complained much. I've been balancing it out with Hero Points and Plot-twist cards, which seem to make up for it rather nicely.
It is an issue for me. I'm running the campaign with 7 players (although most of the time only 6 make it to any given session), so I keep them one level behind the intended progression anyway, but sometimes I feel like I should have kept them two levels behind, because they are defeating hard encounters too easily.
Random encounters are no solution for me; first, they are much too rare too have a real impact, and second, they cost too much valuable time that could be spent with role-playing, even more so if I increased their frequency.
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It is an issue for me. I'm running the campaign with 7 players (although most of the time only 6 make it to any given session), so I keep them one level behind the intended progression anyway, but sometimes I feel like I should have kept them two levels behind, because they are defeating hard encounters too easily.
Random encounters are no solution for me; first, they are much too rare too have a real impact, and second, they cost too much valuable time that could be spent with role-playing, even more so if I increased their frequency.
That's because they are too strong, even if you keep them one level behind. For example, with intended level 6 you keep them at 5. However, their APL would be somewhere in the 8-9 range, so they're at least 2 levels ahead of the intended challenges. Not to mention 7 PCs having action economy stacked in their favor.
Tsk, shame on you for not using my 6 players conversions and the later ones done in the same style ;)...
The topic of keeping a player a level behind was debated in some detail in my first conversion thread, and I warned against keeping them one level back to balance...
I actually used some of your conversions in "Stolen Lands", great work btw. Maybe I should have a look at your work for RRR and VV...
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I actually used some of your conversions in "Stolen Lands", great work btw. Maybe I should have a look at your work for RRR and VV...Tsk, shame on you for not using my 6 players conversions and the later ones done in the same style ;)...
The topic of keeping a player a level behind was debated in some detail in my first conversion thread, and I warned against keeping them one level back to balance...
I didn't do VV but it was done in the same style, I think only 5 and 6 need doing now...
That's because they are too strong, even if you keep them one level behind. For example, with intended level 6 you keep them at 5. However, their APL would be somewhere in the 8-9 range, so they're at least 2 levels ahead of the intended challenges. Not to mention 7 PCs having action economy stacked in their favor.
The rules tell me a party of 6 characters of level 5 have an APL of 6 (Chapter Gamemsatering / Designing Encounters in the core rulebook). Is this too low in your opinion?
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I think the value of random encounters in Kingmaker is greater than the need to have 1 encounter a day + plus plenty of roleplaying and I'll state my case why.
Random encounters are critical (imo) for the first 1-4 Kingmaker mods
- Keeps players on their toes
- Reflects the fact that areas explored or not conquered or settled
- Sets the stage for PC planning: even if you don't always use random encounters the fact that the possibility exists would limit the desire to nova at a single encounter.
- Some encounters draw other encounters. Noise and activity of one fight may draw other creatures, especially if there is a tremendous amount of smoke/fire. This could alert creatures from some distance away.
There are scavengers/opportunistic creatures in every biosphere.
- I don't use fixed percentages, the further out the greater the danger. Also the greater the danger that the party may need to fight it out in the night or as they travel back to more settled lands.
- Single encounters are too meta imo. I don't care if it's too much or work or if takes away from rp time. Once you establish a pattern the players will find a way to work within that pattern. If it's single encounter a day and they know it, then yeah they are going to nova.
This isn't an issue of DM vs. player nor should it be perceived as so. The players in this AP are playing vs. the world and as such need to be prepared to take on all threats until they settle the land.
As far as beefing encounters I'd go MAX hp with no CR boost, maybe add a template - but only if it's optimal for the creature (adds hp and SR and/or DR), other templates are a waste of xp. Look for the most bang for your buck - that way players get the challenge without the xp bloat.
So if templates don't work for an encounter I would increase the number of foes, or supplement with low level threats/one-tricks that make the encounter very tough (use environment, make it difficult for party to operate).
all of it
That's exactly how I see it. Its wilderness, lawless, brutal, unforgiving!
They are set loose to carve a kingdom for themselves; great risks and great rewards.My group has 2-3 random and staged encounters per adventuring day. They got to a point where they bury every corpse they can not use for food, because I got them twice with a wolf attack at night/dawn, when they thought camping next to a carcass was a good idea "because it gives off warmth"... (we have winter in my campaign)
I max hp of every single monster and since they are low level I can use sewere weather and terrain as an "encounter" - and it's been a blast.
Ruyan.
Say, you could give them evil fey... a party of Gnomes (generic fey in Pathfinder) that are Rogues and Mages are sent to haras the Party by some evil Fairy :) Sneak attacks, trapps in the bush, gurilla tactics, Illusions, invisible creatures and evil laughter.... that should give the party the creaps :) and keep them excited :)
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Because of the outdoor focus of Kingmaker, a large percentage of the encounters are limited to 1/day. Especially the exploration portion of the adventure path.
Thus, my group "blows" all their resources (biggest spells, etc) against the encounter, knowing they can sleep right after. This is collectively known as the D&D 15 minute work day. And while it is prevalent in most adventures, it is really noticeable in Kingmaker.
Have others run into this same problem?
Sure, I can keep throwing in 'extra' random encounters, but that isn't a tactic I prefer (DM against the players vibe). Have other DM's beefed-up the encounters to counter this tactic?
In the low levels of Kingmaker I let the random encounter roll stand as his so the accidental troll x3 encounter at level 2 got my players scared. At the mid levels (5-9) I tend to ignore random encounter roll that would be more a paper work exorcise and either change to either something higher in CR or into a on the fly role playing encounter.
but then again slaughtering throngs of those mad goblins can be quite fun