I like the Magus thus far, but I think the first part of the True Magus is basically mechanically pointless.
"Whenever he uses his spell combat ability, he does not need to make a concentration check to cast the spell defensively."
Since this is a level 20 ability there is no need to worry about multi-classing or those kinds of interactions.
The Magus maxes out at 6th level spells and no longer takes a penalty on his concentration when using spell combat. Therefore his maximum concentration DC is 27 (15+6x2). For concentration checks at level 20 when he gets this power he is already adding caster level (+20)and the lowest ability score mod required to cast the spell (+3 for level 6 spells, +2 for level 5 and 4, and so on).
Assuming he was the worst Magus in the world and had only the minimum int required to cast level 6 spells and took no feats, traits or class abilities to boost his concentration he would still only fail his hardest concentration checks on a roll of 3 or lower.
Even a worse Magus who lacked the int to cast 6th level spells, only 5th would need a 2 or 1 to fail his hardest concentration checks.
I can understand it flavor-wise, but mechanically it really provides no boost to anyone playing a decent Mangus
the possibility to fail is still hard, not needing to throw dice is good.
But I agree with you, that this is not what lvl 20 abilities are about. To me, Weapon bond at lvl 19 is much better, because it is nearly absolute.
I would advise to get the "no concentration check" earlier, and end the class with a bang, like most other classes.
Director of Games
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Even a 15 point buy Magus will be very likely to have 22 Intelligence by Level 20. The first part is almost totally redundant. I was a bit unimpressed with the capstone overall to be honest.
Truth be told, I am not 100% pleased by it myself. Looking into other options. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Truth be told, I am not 100% pleased by it myself. Looking into other options. Thoughts?
You're not going to want to hear this, but here it is: make Concentration DCs scale meaningfully with level. The problem with them in 3.5 was that they were auto-success. The problem in PF is that they're too hard at low levels and still far too easy at high levels.
Instead of a static DC 15 + (2 x spell level), something like (DC 10 + 1/2 BAB of threatening opponent + 2 x spell level), would be more appropriate.
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Even a 15 point buy Magus will be very likely to have 22 Intelligence by Level 20. The first part is almost totally redundant. I was a bit unimpressed with the capstone overall to be honest.Truth be told, I am not 100% pleased by it myself. Looking into other options. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I liked it fluff-wise but mechanically it felt underwhelming. Still thinking of what might be a nice replacement. The Magus does seem to emphasise magic over martial a little more than I thought it would, so something martial would be nice. Does anyone else get that impression?
I thought auto-confirmation of crits would be nice but its probably been overdone. Something to boost the damage of the Magus would be nice too. I'll weigh in again if I think of something.
Edit:
Truth be told, I am not 100% pleased by it myself. Looking into other options. Thoughts?You're not going to want to hear this, but here it is: make Concentration DCs scale meaningfully with level. The problem with them in 3.5 was that they were auto-success. The problem in PF is that they're too hard at low levels and still far too easy at high levels.
Instead of a static DC 15 + (2 x spell level), something like (DC 10 + 1/2 BAB of threatening opponent + 2 x spell level), would be more appropriate.
That would involve overhauling the whole concentration system, and its hardly Magus specific- I don't feel thats particularily relevant to this playtest, they're obviously not going to overhaul the concentration system in this playtest so lets work with what we've got.
I think it would be cool to enter a sort of spell state. Perhaps something like a number of rounds equal to int mod a day where your spells are quickened and empowered while channeling them through a weapon.
Maybe it means that when a 20th level Magus is casting defensively, that nothing short of unconsciousness or death will interrupt his spell casting. He could be in the middle of an earthquake or have 20 kobolds hitting him simultaneously with clubs and still not have to roll a concentration check? :)
Also, this ability is eliminating the minus on the weapon attack and not just on the concentration check. Normally they are -4 and -2. At 8th level a Magus gets Improved Spell Combat which reduces this to -2 and 0. Then at 20th level, True Magus gets rid of that last -2 to attack with a weapon, and while the text does not state this, it is the obvious progression.
As an interesting thought what if when he crit'd with his attack the spell is maximized or does double damage?
That would involve overhauling the whole concentration system, and its hardly Magus specific- I don't feel thats particularily relevant to this playtest, they're obviously not going to overhaul the concentration system in this playtest so lets work with what we've got.
The concentration system is in need of the overhaul, though. Even if we jerry-rig a solution for the magus, we're just putting off the inevitable -- numerous other problems will inevitably appear as a result. Already we've got casters begging to retrain the Combat Casting feat, because it's absolutely required at low levels and almost totally worthless at high levels -- sort of the opposite of scaling with level. One suture might be worth a hundred band-aids, in this case.
As an interesting thought what if when he crit'd with his attack the spell is maximized or does double damage?It'll already do double damage on a crit...
Yea I forgot that, so what about it being x3 instead of x2?
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Director of Games
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Kirth,
This is not the place nor the time for this, but the situation you are describing was mildly intentional. I personally think that higher level casters should be able to cast their spells almost without fail. They are at the pinnacle of their power. In the same way, I want fighters to be able to hit with their primary attack almost automatically. It is one of the perks of being powerful.
As for the Combat Casting feat situation, it is no different than Weapon Focus, or other feats that become statistically less significant at higher levels.
Agree with me or not, in either case, that particular system is not changing with this playtest. Lets focus on the task at hand.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Jason,
I know things can get lost as posts move along, but is the bit from my earlier post that I am quoting here how the first part of True Magus should be worded?
Also, this ability is eliminating the minus on the weapon attack and not just on the concentration check. Normally they are -4 and -2. At 8th level a Magus gets Improved Spell Combat which reduces this to -2 and 0. Then at 20th level, True Magus gets rid of that last -2 to attack with a weapon, and while the text does not state this, it is the obvious progression.
Because if not, then a Magus still has that -2 to melee attack to deal with, even at 20th level.
You also have to remember abilities like the Disruptive, Spellbreaker, Disrupting Shot, Disruptive Spell feats can increase your check numbers.
Also, maybe I'm remembering some 3.X feats, but aren't there some feats opponents could have that make casting defensively harder near them? If there aren't any in pathfinder yet, maybe Ultimate Magic will include a few?
Here's a scary and suitably awe-inspiring alernative for True Magus (which also helps focus more on Spellstrike, a la a good suggestion from Ben Roe), though it may be too powerful--
True Spellstrike: At 20th level, the Magus's weapon becomes a living embodiment of his magical might. Whenever he uses Spell Combat in order to cast a touch spell and deliver it via Spellstrike, the touch spell applies to every attack in the full attack.
Truth be told, I am not 100% pleased by it myself. Looking into other options. Thoughts?
What about removing the spell combat clause? Just make a True Magus automatically suceed at all defensive casting checks. And if that's still not good enough, give them a bonus or autosuccess on the check to avoid disruption from a readied attack too.
Something on the line of being able 1/day (3/day?) to use a Magus Arcana that DOES NOT know spontaneously? Too strong? Too weak?
Maybe allow them to use Spellstrike as a Swift Action in addition to the lack of requiring the Concentration check, simply because not having to roll it would be nice?
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What about allowing them to use Ranged Touch attacks with thier Melee weapons?
Or when using spellstrike it counts as a touch attack...
Or Giving them an Arcane Strike where they can as a swift action convert a spell into 2d6 per level damage?
I think making an improved Spellstrike as thier capstone would be a better choice.
Imagine if they could at 10th level spell strike with ranged touch spells and at 20th they could spellstrike with ranged spells.
Hmm how about a Swift Action casting when making attacks of opportunity.
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Yea I forgot that, so what about it being x3 instead of x2?As an interesting thought what if when he crit'd with his attack the spell is maximized or does double damage?It'll already do double damage on a crit...
This would be sweet.
Here's a scary and suitably awe-inspiring alernative for True Magus (which also helps focus more on Spellstrike, a la a good suggestion from Ben Roe), though it may be too powerful--
True Spellstrike: At 20th level, the Magus's weapon becomes a living embodiment of his magical might. Whenever he uses Spell Combat in order to cast a touch spell and deliver it via Spellstrike, the touch spell applies to every attack in the full attack.
This, also would be sweet.
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What about allowing them to use Ranged Touch attacks with thier Melee weapons?Do you mean Range Touch attacks with thrown weapons?
No I mean you cast Scorching Ray and instead of making a ranged touch with it you can make a spell strike with it. So if you miss the spell isn't wasted, but rather held in the weapon until you do hit.
Alternatively when making spellstrikes your weapon is converted into Arcane energy turning your attacks into touch attacks.
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Truth be told, I am not 100% pleased by it myself. Looking into other options. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Maybe something with metamagic feats? Allow the magus to apply certain metamagic feats (like empower) without using a higher level spell slot? Looking at the spell list for the class, I don't see "free empower" at 20th level that game-breaking.
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Maybe Gandalf it where the Magus can instead of casting a spell can use Spell Completion items (Wands,Rods,Staves) in his casting hand while meleeing with the other?
Would love to have a Rapier in one hand and a Staff of the Magi in the other....
This. It would be even more awesome if the staff of the magi WAS the melee weapon :) (or if you enchanted a sword as both sword and staff).
Let the Magus Heighten his spells. Seriously, if they cap out at 6th level, there's a ceiling to the DCs. Part of the capstone could allow him to use metamagic to jack a spell all the way up to 9th even though the Magus never gets 9th-level spells. +3 to the DC at least.
Just an off-the-cuff thought.
Sounds like you should post that in the thread asking for more arcana ideas as it would fit in that context better.
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Let the Magus Heighten his spells. Seriously, if they cap out at 6th level, there's a ceiling to the DCs. Part of the capstone could allow him to use metamagic to jack a spell all the way up to 9th even though the Magus never gets 9th-level spells. +3 to the DC at least.
Just an off-the-cuff thought.
I actually like where this is going. Perhaps the Magus could have spell slots for up to level 9 similar to the Wizard/Sorcerer, but still keep just the 6 levels of spells. You'd have a swath of spell slots to Metamagic-up.
Enevhar regarding the penalty to attacks, at level 14 greater spell combat removes the final penalty.
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Maybe Gandalf it where the Magus can instead of casting a spell can use Spell Completion items (Wands,Rods,Staves) in his casting hand while meleeing with the other?
Would love to have a Rapier in one hand and a Staff of the Magi in the other....
This would be very cool. Make it so it builds off of the Spell Combat and the can do it as if Two Weapon Fighting.
Enevhar regarding the penalty to attacks, at level 14 greater spell combat removes the final penalty.
Yep, I see that. I read it and totally spaced on it. Then that does make the first part of True Magus a little pointless. Unless my original post about it where I was sort of joking about never needing a concentration check in that situation, no matter the minuses, except when knocked out or dead, is what it applies to.
How about making your stored Spellstrike spell affect the target with each attack during a full attack action? Limited times per day if needed?
He doesn't actually have an AC penalty. Any AC he loses he makes up by saving +5 on the cost of his preferred weapon. That's +150k at level 20. His weapon is also quite modular...one of the same problems they are having at dreamscarred with the Soulknife builds.
I'm also wondering why his level 6 spell list is larger then his level 5. I suggest paring it down...
I think spell slots of 7,8 and 9 is an excellent idea. It would also give him a place to throw Int bonus spells. Having no 7-9 spells on his list would make metamagic useful for his higher level spells...and it means he could counter the spells of a wizard of any level, even if he can't CAST them. He'd need a 28 Int for the bonus slot, but it would be something to shoot for!
Level 20 Wizard casts Time Stop to start his free buff rounds of death.
True Magus says, "No."
Heh.
Note that his ability to channel a touch attack through his weapon is actually WORSE then administering it as a Touch Attack with his free hand, if he has any miss chance. 95% hit with off hand, to whatever % hit with primarY?
Any reason this can't be a 'knows all spells on list' caster, and just do away with the spellbook? It would greatly add to his versatility in casting, like a sorc....his abilities to sac spell slots essentially become new 'spells known'.
I don't think a fireball shot off through his blade and critting would get doubled. It's spell damage, not weapon dmg.
Might want to have the DC and Spell Penetration of his spells enhanced by his weapons enhancement bonus, if channelled...that would give ARcane Bond some oomph.
As a capstone, instead just say the Magus always makes his Concentration checks, or, he gets a bonus to his Concentration checks of +20 or something. Readied actions, interference, whatever...he almost always gets the spell off. THAT would be a major capstone...as it stands he can still get disrupted by ready actions. Now, such things would truly have to hit hard to stop him.
==Aelryinth
I'm also wondering why his level 6 spell list is larger then his level 5. I suggest paring it down...
Because when UM comes out, the spell lists will get larger, not smaller, with the addition of all the new touch attack spells that we are not allowed to see yet.
Make spells cast by Spell Combat automatically overcome spell resistance if the weapon attack hits and deals damage.
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My preference for an improved level 20 capstone would be an improvement to Spellstrike, Spell Combat, or both.
To whit, something along the lines of this:
True Spellstrike: When using spellstrike a magus may cast the spell to be delivered through his weapon as a swift action. A magus' spellstrike attacks are treated as though possessing the brilliant energy weapon enhancement.
-or-
True Spell Combat: A magus may now cast 2 spells with a casting time of one standard action as part of a full-round attack action.
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Regarding Magus capstone... (possible alternatives)
1. True Magus as an ideal of Fighter/Magic User (i.e. best of both worlds).
- continuous Freedom of Movement
- minor form of Dimension Door
- ability to act after Teleport/Dimension door
- select touch and personal range spells cast as swift action2. True Magus as an embodiment of arcane champion (arcane paladin).
- continuous True Seeing
- touch spells require only a swift action to cast
- Spell Resistance
- at will, x/week, Contingency3. True Magus as a swashbuckling legendary hero.
- ability to cancel spells and spell like effects at will and at a range as an immediate action
- ability to produce antimagic effects
- ability to detect and use extradimensional spaces
- ability to cast charm spell as a silenced stilled and quickened spellRegards,
Ruemere
I do find the capstone ability to be rather... lackluster at best.
Not big on Dimension Door or Teleport options. Mainly the "flavor" doesn't jump out to me. It seems "random" to me. True Seeing would be cool, but I would suggest it as an earlier ability more in line with a Paladin's Detect Evil. It is okay, but lacks the CAPSTONE feel for me. :)
Canceling spells and spell like abilities is MAJOR LEAGUE. Probably even too powerful for a capstone ability. Dragons would tremble and most high level monsters would be cake walks.
I DO like continuous Freedom of Movement. I have played level 20+ fighters that were rendered almost useless with Slow spells and similar spells. Kind of lame for an Epic Fighter to be laid low by Slow! lol