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I played my first-ever Pathfinder game last night and was surprised that "Use Magic Device" was not a class skill for Wizards. Does anyone else find this strange? And what would the game balance considerations be for this? It only seems to make sense to me that a Wizard would be familiar with the properties of magic items - Sorcerers have UMD as a class skill, after all...
My adventuring group doesn't have a Cleric in our party, and so our GM, knowing this, made sure we got a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. But CLW is not a spell on the Wizard's spell list. So that means I need to use my UMD skill to operate the wand, and the DC for operating a wand is 20! Because Charisma is not one of my highest scores, that would mean I would need to roll an 18 out of 20 to use this simple healing wand! Therefore, it would seem that the ONLY reliable solution for healing in our party, since we don't have a Cleric or Druid or Paladin, is to stock up on a bunch of CLW potions...
That seems a bit out-of-whack to me. Is there anything I'm missing?
Nope. Looks like you've hit the major points. Since wizard has a huge list of spells to choose from they didn't give wizard the UMD skill. It would upset game balance if the wizard could heal himself reliably and function as utility and nuker.
What? Is it a one-man band? Give it to a different member of the party.
Trained only. Someone has to have a rank to attempt a UMD check.
Does your party also have neither a ranger or a bard? Either one could use it without a check.
And Rogues have UMD as a class skill.
I played my first-ever Pathfinder game last night and was surprised that "Use Magic Device" was not a class skill for Wizards. Does anyone else find this strange? And what would the game balance considerations be for this? It only seems to make sense to me that a Wizard would be familiar with the properties of magic items - Sorcerers have UMD as a class skill, after all...
My adventuring group doesn't have a Cleric in our party, and so our GM, knowing this, made sure we got a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. But CLW is not a spell on the Wizard's spell list. So that means I need to use my UMD skill to operate the wand, and the DC for operating a wand is 20! Because Charisma is not one of my highest scores, that would mean I would need to roll an 18 out of 20 to use this simple healing wand! Therefore, it would seem that the ONLY reliable solution for healing in our party, since we don't have a Cleric or Druid or Paladin, is to stock up on a bunch of CLW potions...
That seems a bit out-of-whack to me. Is there anything I'm missing?
The logic behind it is that the Use Magic Device skill doesn't represent the intended means of activation; to use a computer analogy, it's your skill at hacking and fiddling with magic items to find workarounds and loopholes in a given magic item's code and methodology.
That said, sorcerers rely on their natural powers, force of will, and their haphazard approach to learning, whereas wizards (quite literally) do things "by the book".
Regardless, in the PFRPG you can always put skill ranks in non-class skills with little penalty (none of 3.5's double cost/half max ranks issue) beyond the +3 bonus for trained skills. The would-be wizard could always take Skill Focus, which would get that +3.
If you're not opposed to some light multiclassing, a single level in another class is a decent way to pick up extra skills and skill points without putting your spell progression too far down the road.
And likewise, check with your GM and explain the situation. Rule 0 could certainly be invoked to allow yon wizard the use of Use Magic Device as a class skill OR Skill Focus as a bit of GM fiat.
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The class skill or not is only a difference of 3 points over the life of your character. If someone is going to be putting ranks in UMD in your party it should be a person with a better Cha score who might increase it over time.
Besides that- you won't even need a check for any arcane wand. It's only when you go trying to fiddle about with divine magic that you have issues.
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The class skill or not is only a difference of 3 points over the life of your character. If someone is going to be putting ranks in UMD in your party it should be a person with a better Cha score who might increase it over time.
Besides that- you won't even need a check for any arcane wand. It's only when you go trying to fiddle about with divine magic that you have issues.
Aha! I see the game balance considerations for it then...
Fluff wise, it still somewhat fits.
A wizard, based on his need for intellect and the style and book keeping of his casting, is very structured and orderly. If I recall, the core book mentions that wizard have a tendancy towards lawfulness. Spells are precise and exact formula that need to be done properly with no faffing about.
Use Magic Device is more or less the opposite of this. You're waving the wand around, chanting a word you sorta made up on the spot, but it gets the job done. It's "close enough," and the skill itself shows that you know how to mock-emulate the proper gestures. UMD is the guy who knows how too whack the computer on it's side just right to get it working again. It isn't proper maintenance, but it gets the job done.
Thanks - you've all answered my question. As it turns out, there is a Ranger in our party, so he should be able to use the wand with a higher bonus!
Another (related) question: I can't seem to find this in the text... If he fails on a UMD check with the wand, does a charge get wasted?
Um, it seems to me you don't know how using Wands work... If you have the spell in the wand on your spell list, you don't need to roll anything. Ranger has it on his spell list, so he just uses it automatically.
As was pointed out before, it not being a class skill can be mitigated. Give the wand to the person with the best CHA score and have them put 1 rank in it. You keep it, put 1 rank in it, and spend a feat on skill focus. At an extreme you could always take 1 level of cleric (or bard) and then be able to use it w/o any checks.
A party with no healers is doable, but someone has to make the investment outside of their chosen field to pull it off.
Since cure light wounds is on the ranger's spell list he won't have to make a UMD check unless his caster level isn't high enough to cast the spell.
Edit: I'm an idiot. He doesn't need to have the appropriate caster level. Just have the spell on his list. My goof.
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I could be wrong (it has been one of those weeks), but from what I read in RAW, the answer is no, the charge does not get used.
Another (related) question: I can't seem to find this in the text... If he fails on a UMD check with the wand, does a charge get wasted?
I was actually looking for that rule earlier, and can't find it. I'm pretty sure such was the case in 3.5...
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Since cure light wounds is on the ranger's spell list he won't have to make a UMD check unless his caster level isn't high enough to cast the spell.
Edit: I'm an idiot. He doesn't need to have the appropriate caster level. Just have the spell on his list. My goof.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.
He should be ok.
I guess I look at it like the Wizard doesn't need the skill. I wonder why the Sorcerer even has it. Sure being able to use a wand of Cure Light is nice but hardly worth skill point investment. Now if you are rogue this skill is a definitely worth it.
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Um, it seems to me you don't know how using Wands work... If you have the spell in the wand on your spell list, you don't need to roll anything. Ranger has it on his spell list, so he just uses it automatically.Thanks - you've all answered my question. As it turns out, there is a Ranger in our party, so he should be able to use the wand with a higher bonus!
Another (related) question: I can't seem to find this in the text... If he fails on a UMD check with the wand, does a charge get wasted?
I stand corrected - I was confusing one advantage (a spell being on one's spell list) for the other (UMD being a class skill)...
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Since cure light wounds is on the ranger's spell list he won't have to make a UMD check unless his caster level isn't high enough to cast the spell.
Edit: I'm an idiot. He doesn't need to have the appropriate caster level. Just have the spell on his list. My goof.
I believe the requirement you referred to refers to scrolls, which requires a caster level check if one's caster level doesn't meet that of the scroll...
Considering my own mistake upthread, I think it would be great if there were a chart clarifying the differences in the rules between how to use different magic items: scrolls, wants, staves, and rods. (For example, staves allow a caster to use their caster level, while rods and wands don't.) I find it too easy to confuse them, especially when I'm in the middle of running a battle.
I love Pathfinder, but I think one thing the Core Rulebook is lacking in is charts in certain areas where confusion might reign...
Besides that- you won't even need a check for any arcane wand. It's only when you go trying to fiddle about with divine magic that you have issues.
Arcane/divine doesn't matter for wands. It only matters for scrolls*. A cleric and a wizard can use the same wand of hold person equally well, without a UMD check. A wand is merely a wand, not a "divine wand" or an "arcane wand" (barring, of course, a spell that is only on one class's spell list).
*And many GMs, James Jacobs included, house-rule away the arcane/divine restriction for scrolls, too.
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Besides that- you won't even need a check for any arcane wand. It's only when you go trying to fiddle about with divine magic that you have issues.Arcane/divine doesn't matter for wands. It only matters for scrolls*. A cleric and a wizard can use the same wand of hold person equally well, without a UMD check. A wand is merely a wand, not a "divine wand" or an "arcane wand" (barring, of course, a spell that is only on one class's spell list).
*And many GMs, James Jacobs included, house-rule away the arcane/divine restriction for scrolls, too.
Right, I was a bit loose with my wording. I specifically meant spells that are not on the wizard/sorcerer list- like cure light. Most of those are divine.
Aha! I see the game balance considerations for it then...Besides that- you won't even need a check for any arcane wand. It's only when you go trying to fiddle about with divine magic that you have issues.
I just have to add something to this; it's incorrect on several levels. First off, there are no "arcane wands"; wands aren't arcane or divine, they're just magic. The only items that are arcane or divine are scrolls.
Secondly, you can use any wand which contains a spell on your spell list. For a sorcerer or wizard, that is any spell on the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
You can't use wands (without UMD) with spells that other arcane caster can cast. For example, bards and witches can cast cure light wounds, and they cast them as arcane spells, but that doesn't allow you to freely use a wand of cure light wounds - not even one made by a witch.
EDIT: Ninja'd
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IF you fail by 10 or more the device operates but not in the way you want dealing 2d6 points of damage to the would-be wielder. So for a Wand I'd figure that would blow a charge.
See, I have had questions on that. The skill specifies that for the "activate blindly" action, but does not state anything similar with anything else or in any general area. From what I can tell, you only have a chance to damage yourself when you try to activate something blindly, but not when you try to do any of the following:
Decipher a Written Spell
Emulate an Ability Score
Emulate an Alignment
Emulate a Class Feature
Emulate a Race
Use a Scroll
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item
From the way that it is written, for these you just fail to make it do anything at all (or in the case of emulating stuff, fail to trick it and take the normal consequences of the item.) But you should be safe trying wands as often as you want, as long as you do not roll a "1" and fail, which could kick off this:
Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can't try to activate that item again for 24 hours.
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Pretty much using any item falls under the "activate blindly" (After all you're not using it the way it's supposed to, you're just trying to "make it work!" )qualifier.. it's the DCs which change according to the type of item.
Basically if the item can discharge it will damage you if you fail badly enough. If the item is a one spells scroll, failing that badly means that you've blown the scroll.
Mind you of course some items will have a bad just from failing the attempt to master it. a LE sword might very well stab the CG rogue who just tried to wield it by emulating alignment.
But use blindly has a set DC of 25, which is different than the DC's given for the rest. If that was the RAI, they should have stated that clearly and not as separate actions that you can do with the skill.
Also, the skill itself goes against this. In the "Activate Blindly" section it states: (highlighted by me)
Activate Blindly: Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you're not and even if you don't know it.
If RAI was all magic items are "activate blindly" as base, then would it not say something along the line as "most" or "all" and not "some". I view the "activate blindly" as a catch all for anything that does not fall into one of the other categories. A good example of this is a flaming magic sword. You activate one of those with a word. If you do not know the word (from a nice friendly caster identing the sword, or someone telling you), you could use this ability to shout out some words that might be it, make your UMD roll, and if you fail by more then 10, boom!
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I'm assuming that the DC25 is for using anything blindly that's not covered under the categories above like say a wondrous item that requires a specific gesture or command to activate.
But use blindly has a set DC of 25, which is different than the DC's given for the rest. If that was the RAI, they should have stated that clearly and not as separate actions that you can do with the skill.
Ahh, so activate blindly covers wondrous items (I agree) plus other odd stuff that the GM might create that does not fit under the other categories. So, since there is a category for using wands and staves, and they do not say anything about failing bad and having any other penalty other then, at worst case, not being able to try again on that item for 24 hours, then failing at a wand or staff does not cause it to blow a charge (since it is not stated in the RAW) heck, even for activate blindly, there is nothing that says that it blows a charge of a charged item, just that it hurts.
The only thing that even hints at it is this one line:
This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally risk when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself.
And why would you ever be activating a scroll this way? You should just be using this section:
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.
unless you are trying to use a scroll that you have not deciphered yet, and this have no idea what it will do, and at that point, you get whatever the GM wants to pitch at you for gambling.
A scroll can be a problematic item to cast if you are not of the caster level to cast the spell on it. i.e. A first level wizard trying to cast a scroll of Wish.
This also applies to wands.
Can I get a link to see where that ruling is at? Our DM has only ever limited by our ability score (i.e. 19 Int needed for wish). Along with it not being on your spell list.
Can I get a link to see where that ruling is at? Our DM has only ever limited by our ability score (i.e. 19 Int needed for wish). Along with it not being on your spell list.A scroll can be a problematic item to cast if you are not of the caster level to cast the spell on it. i.e. A first level wizard trying to cast a scroll of Wish.
This also applies to wands.
Caster level checks for scrolls are explained on page 490 of the Core Rulebook, under the section "Activate the Spell":
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
Ok, that’s right. I remember talking about it with my DM now. You can cast it if it is above your caster level, but at a higher DC.
So we have always followed the correct requirements, then.
Thanks Sean and Lazar!
I personally think the way your average bard uses UMD with a wand is to hold it and launch into a dramatic recitation of some epic poem which of course has lots and lots of words, any of which could be the command word or at very least sound similar to the command word.
A rogue, OTOH, probably uses some prepared script of magical-sounding stuff like "Hocus Pocus Lorep Ipsum Hickory Dickory Tan Yan Tethera Methera Bite-Me Fanboy" and so forth which would horrify your average spell caster, especially when, for example, their wand of light that is supposed to be activated by "Fiat Lux!" also seems to operate perfectly well when someone says "Phoebe Sucks!"
Sorcerers probably do an inspired recitation of common command phrases, using their instinctive knowledge of magic to hit upon something that will work and sound good doing it, even if it's not what the original creator intended.
Wizards? If a wand is at all distinctive, they might try a Knowledge Arcana check to see if they can place it as the creation of some famous wizard and maybe figure out what command phrase he was fond of giving his wands, but most wizards would prefer to use Detect Magic, Spellcraft and Identify to basically read off the precise sequence of phonetic syllables which compose a command word. When a wizard activates a wand, their delivery will lack drama but their enunciation will be impeccable.
If a wizard were to create a wand of CLW with the help of a divine spellcaster supplying the spell component, then would he be able to use the wand without the use magic device skill since he would know the activation thought or word?
On that note, I've always thought it was weird that wizards didn't get use magic device as a class skill. I'd argue that wizards, with their constant practice at creating magic items and deep understanding of the workings that are involved, would have an innate understanding of how the things function. A wizard with a high spellcraft or a high knowledge(religion) skill should have a broad understanding of all magic, not just arcane, and there is arguably no other class as knowledgeable and experienced at the construction and use of magic items. If the problem is game balance, that's fine, but from a role-playing perspective, I've always ruled in my games that they can have it.
If nothing else, couldn't the craft magic item feats also give bonuses toward the use of those particular categories of magical devices?
If a wizard were to create a wand of CLW with the help of a divine spellcaster supplying the spell component, then would he be able to use the wand without the use magic device skill since he would know the activation thought or word?
Nope.
On that note, I've always thought it was weird that wizards didn't get use magic device as a class skill. I'd argue that wizards, with their constant practice at creating magic items and deep understanding of the workings that are involved, would have an innate understanding of how the things function.
Well, there's two reasons.
First, balance: wizards are already the best and most versatile class. You'll find people trying to make arguments that other classes are near as good or can contribute as much, but you'll never find anyone with the remotest grasp of game balance arguing that wizards aren't among the the very top tier.
Second: UMD isn't the skill for people who know a lot about magic. UMD is a skill that lets you activate an item despite the fact that you have no idea how to actually do it and/or aren't intended to be able to do it. A wizard is an actual jukebox repairman; a character who's good at UMD is the Fonz hitting the thing and making it work just because he's so suave, even though the Fonz doesn't know jack about jukebox innards. Basically, you think the skill represents the opposite of what it's thematically supposed to.
Edit: Ninja'd on my example, but basically I agree with the above post.
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UMD does not represent the ability to figure out how to use a magic item. Consider, if it did, you'd only have to make a UMD roll once for a wand instead of every time you activated that wand. UMD represents the ability to conjule the item to work. If you're old enough to remember the tv show Happy Days, it's like the Fonz hitting the juke box. It's like the teenager with the hand-me-down roadster pleading for it to start.
(Didn't read the whole thread...)
Just wanted to say: I'm stealing this analogy.*hits the wand, ally is cured* "Eyyyy!"
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I'd argue that wizards, with their constant practice at creating magic items and deep understanding of the workings that are involved, would have an innate understanding of how the things function.
I don't think the word innate means what you think it does. A Sorcerer has an innate understanding of magic. A wizard does not.
Which is part of the reason I think it's b+%+%@## that wizards get earlier access to new spell levels than sorcerers. If anything, that should be reversed.
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I think the limit on spells known is all the balancing factor for spontaneous casting that is needed.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that the word "innate" is the word that I focused on. Wizards do NOT have an innate understanding of magic. They have to study it, and force the magic to work for them.
Sorcerers DO have an innate understanding /talent for magic. While some sorcerers have this due to their non-human lineage, others are fully human and just have this innate talent as a part of who they are (the arcane bloodline is the best example). Sorcerers do not force the magic to work for them like wizards do...sorcerers conduits for magic, and let it flow through them, directing it to achieve their desires.
It is true that some sorcerers would never really focus on developing that. They're sorcerers that top out at level 1-3. Sorcerers who advance beyond that are putting in the same effort towards greater understanding of their powers as wizards are, which is why I think that someone is talented and works with that talent (ie, a sorcerer who advances past the first few levels) should be at a absolute minimum equal to someone who does NOT have talent but works hard (a wizard).
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If you want UMD as a class skill, take the dangerously curious trait or the underlying principles trait.