For the first few levels it's free DR.
At level 7 the barbarian normally gets DR but by now you have DR 3 (two points better than an ordirnary barbarian) and at level 8 that bumps to three points better. At level 12 it bumps to four points better, then back down to three points better at 13, then back up to four points better at level 14. You get to five points better at 18th and 20th level.
At 7th level, two points of DR knocked off of every melee hit is nice but not earth-shaking. Compared to a fighter with the same DEX you will be 4 points of AC lower than the fighter (not counting shields) or 5 points of AC lower while you're raging.
Avoiding 20-25% of all attacks against you is usually going to be better than taking DR 3 off of each one. Consider a CR7 Hill Giant hits you four times averaging 16 HP for a total of 64 damage, while the fighter get hit three times averaging 19 damage for a total of 57 damage.
Now, comparing a level 7 Invunlerable Raging barbarian against an ordinary barbarian, sure, you're a better tank - but he's not a tank at all and shouldn't behave like one. You're better at tanking than the non-tank barbarian, but just not good enough to compare with a tank fighter.
As your level goes up, your DR gets better and better, but don't forget that a 19th level fighter gets DR 5/- while you still have DR 9/-) so he catches up a big chunk of DR right there. And by then his AC is fare more than just 4-5 points better than yours, so he avoids far more hits than you do - and those hits do far more damage, so avoiding them because far more important.
That's a lot of far mores, but hopefully it illustrates why a high-level fighter is far more effective as a tank.
Yep, the Invulnerable Rager is a better tank than an ordinary barbarian, but if you want to tank, play a fighter.
Definitely. The only thing that can match them for pure hitpoints are dragons. Seriously. Dragons. And rage kicks that up a notch.
The things I think would help a Barbarian tank the best are the Beast Totem rage powers, the Raging Vitality feat, and Heavy Armor Proficiency. Guarded Stance and Rolling Dodge are okay, but not super great, and I feel iffy about blowing a standard action. All the Intimidate stuff is pretty good too - lowering your enemy's attack bonus is pretty much the same as raising yours.
Don't forget, however, that for Barbarians, the best defense is a good offense.
I feel like the Invulnerable Rager is probably the best Barbarian variant (Mounted Fury is great if you can convince your DM to let you take the Boon Companion feat, and Drunken Brute is okay, too).
Sorry I'm too lazy to crunch the numbers.
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The Barbarian is definitely going to be an inefficient tank compared to Fighter. Arguably worse than a Cleric or Paladin, too. What I think the Invulnerable variant does well, though, is a Come and Get Me build. By 12th level (when you can get Come and Get Me), your high DR more than offsets the increased damage enemies get against you. Paired with the elemental rage and fiend totems (or spirit totems if you prefer) to increase DPR and a nice two handed weapon, you may even kill attacking enemies before their swing. This build, in some ways, makes you a de facto tank since enemies will be eager to strike at you instead of the party but adds substantial extra damage to the equation. Ending fights sooner saves as many HP as a high armor class, IMO.
The Invulnerable Rager would make an excellent tank. By level 10, you could have around 6-7 DR/- and 140-150 HP easily while raging (even more if your items are focused on CON instead of STR). Play a dwarf and your saving throws vs. spells should be good as well.
What I'm seeing is the Invulnerable Rager being more useful against an army of weaker foes.
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The Barbarian is definitely going to be an inefficient tank compared to Fighter. Arguably worse than a Cleric or Paladin, too. What I think the Invulnerable variant does well, though, is a Come and Get Me build. By 12th level (when you can get Come and Get Me), your high DR more than offsets the increased damage enemies get against you. Paired with the elemental rage and fiend totems (or spirit totems if you prefer) to increase DPR and a nice two handed weapon, you may even kill attacking enemies before their swing. This build, in some ways, makes you a de facto tank since enemies will be eager to strike at you instead of the party but adds substantial extra damage to the equation. Ending fights sooner saves as many HP as a high armor class, IMO.
I'm curious weather the spirit totem is even almost worth taking... it only adds a 1d4 and it's charisma based... I don't want a third stat to max
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Another thing I thought of is that the barbarian is debatably more predictable as far as damage taking goes. His damaged will be reduced no matter how many times the enemy were to hit him or the fighter in a full attack. Yes the Cleric may complain about having to heal him all too often but the cleric also doesn't have to worry about the hi dex warrior getting 1 shotted with a crit full attack.
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I'm curious weather the spirit totem is even almost worth taking... it only adds a 1d4 and it's charisma based... I don't want a third stat to max
1. It uses your full BAB so even with 10 Cha you'll hit as often as a Cleric with 16 Str.
2. The 20% miss chance offered by Spirit Totem against reach and ranged attacks is really nice. A 20% chance to get missed by arrows, rays, or the long arms of a Dragon as it takes an attack of opportunity on you for closing the gap is pretty cool.3. I don't like it for this build as much as the Fiend Totems. It is, however, an ok second choice. Beast Totem could also be a decent second choice because pounce is so awesome, but I think I'd want to wait until after I'd charged to use Come and Get Me to avoid yet another drop in AC.
Another thing I thought of is that the barbarian is debatably more predictable as far as damage taking goes. His damaged will be reduced no matter how many times the enemy were to hit him or the fighter in a full attack. Yes the Cleric may complain about having to heal him all too often but the cleric also doesn't have to worry about the hi dex warrior getting 1 shotted with a crit full attack.
The damage will not be reduced if it comes from spells or energy or an antipaladin smiting good. But that's not the point.
Subtracting 6-10 from a crit is not going to save you more than a fraction, say 10-20%, of a good x2 crit's damage. You're counting on your higher HP (by 1+however much higher your Con is than a fighter per level) to keep you up instead. A higher AC is also predictable. You can predict that at level x there is only y% chance that most enemies will be able to hit your AC. When the occasional crit gets through, it is made up for by the fact that hardly any other hits have gotten through.
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well thanks for the input.... Always hearing the same thing about barbarian tanks/anything other than beater... I'm still going to do it and I'm sure it will work perfectly well. I think people underestimate how good a decent DR is I'll just spend my money that I didn't spend on the DR armor on something else to boost my ballerness. Thanks for the help again.
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Well, my Paladin shelled out all the gold for adamantine full plate and I can tell you DR3/- was pretty underwhelming. It wasn't until I got to level 10 or 11 and added 3 more to the enhancement bonus that I finally felt safe.
I suggest you make armor a priority. If you're gonna tank, spend at least two to three times as much on your defense as you do on offence. High enhancement bonus for your breast plate (or mithril full plate if you want to take the armor proficiency feat/dip a level into fighter), ring of protection, amulet of natural armor (unless you have a Druid in your party and then buy them a lesser rod of extend and get barkskin from them), etc.
Here's the partial build for Come and Get Me that I started thinking about the other day:
Feats
1 Power Attack
1b Dodge
3 Lightning Reflexes
5 Weapon Focus
9 Great Fortitude
11 Extra Rage Power
13 Extra Rage Power
Rage Powers
2 Lesser Fiend Totem
4 Lesser Elemental Rage
6 Fiend Totem
8 Elemental Rage
10 Increased DR
11 Flesh Wound
12 Come and Get Me
13 Greater Elemental Rage
For more tanking power I'd switch the Fiend Totems for Beast Totems and the level 10 power for Greater Beast Totem for pounce, though it is somewhat less tanky than DR.
Invulnerable Ranger is a great tank!
See this half-build:
Barbarian Invulnerable Ranger lvl 10
Human
For - Dex - Cons:18 Int- Sab - Car-
Alternate Racial Trait - Heart of the Wilderness (max negative hit points + 5)
Feats:
Human- Endurance
1- Diehard
3- Toughness
5-
7-
9- Extra Rage Power (Increase Damage Reduction)
Rage Powers
2- Guard Life
4-
6-
8- Increase Damage Reduction
10- Increase Damage Reduction
Hp: 12d10 + 10favorite class + 10toughness + 40cons(60rage)
RD8/-
You can fight until -22 hit points and you get 10 "extra" hit points with Guard Life when you hit 0 hit points.
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I also think invulnerable barbarians are great tanks- not all encounters are one or two monsters of a high CR, against lower level combatants and seocndary attacks those HP the DR saves are very nice.
Leonardo endurance + diehard for a barbarian is now an inferior option compared to the feat in the APG that lets you stay concious in negative HP during a rage AND gives you +2 Con while raging.
Leonardo endurance + diehard for a barbarian is now an inferior option compared to the feat in the APG that lets you stay concious in negative HP during a rage AND gives you +2 Con while raging.
It´s a good feat!you can pick up these talent to complete the build. But it does not allow you stay concious in negative, only does not end your rage while unconcious.
You can add to this build Racial Heritage (Half-orc) to pick up the feat Fight On. Getting some extra hit points.
For the first few levels it's free DR.
At level 7 the barbarian normally gets DR but by now you have DR 3 (two points better than an ordirnary barbarian) and at level 8 that bumps to three points better. At level 12 it bumps to four points better, then back down to three points better at 13, then back up to four points better at level 14. You get to five points better at 18th and 20th level.
At 7th level, two points of DR knocked off of every melee hit is nice but not earth-shaking. Compared to a fighter with the same DEX you will be 4 points of AC lower than the fighter (not counting shields) or 5 points of AC lower while you're raging.
Avoiding 20-25% of all attacks against you is usually going to be better than taking DR 3 off of each one. Consider a CR7 Hill Giant hits you four times averaging 16 HP for a total of 64 damage, while the fighter get hit three times averaging 19 damage for a total of 57 damage.
Now, comparing a level 7 Invunlerable Raging barbarian against an ordinary barbarian, sure, you're a better tank - but he's not a tank at all and shouldn't behave like one. You're better at tanking than the non-tank barbarian, but just not good enough to compare with a tank fighter.
As your level goes up, your DR gets better and better, but don't forget that a 19th level fighter gets DR 5/- while you still have DR 9/-) so he catches up a big chunk of DR right there. And by then his AC is fare more than just 4-5 points better than yours, so he avoids far more hits than you do - and those hits do far more damage, so avoiding them because far more important.
That's a lot of far mores, but hopefully it illustrates why a high-level fighter is far more effective as a tank.
Yep, the Invulnerable Rager is a better tank than an ordinary barbarian, but if you want to tank, play a fighter.
Don't forget about the greater chaos totem rage power. It's takes a while to get but the DR is basically the same as the invulnerable rager so you could end up with a massive DR that is equal to your lvl against almost anything but lawful attacks during a rage. As for that other damage that the barbarian would take due to the lower AC you can't forget about their higher HP and hopefully higher Con. score.