The Inquisitor is entirely selfish. He can't do a single thing to help his party. None of his class features are group-oriented, and for the most part neither is his spell list. The Arcane Duelist, on the other hand, has a whole raft of party buffs and group-oriented class abilities. Just inspire courage is a dramatic damage increase for a party with several physical attackers, far outshining anything the Inquisitor gets.
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Hi,Look I’m not trolling here but musing on the role of an arcane duelist and the abilities he receives to fulfill it. I’ll be straight and say while I’ve been trying to optimize some builds (haven’t played one yet) I’ve noted that perhaps an Inquisitor Fills the same role only more easily.
For example- the character abilities of both classes lend themselves quite heavily to party boosting and being either a primary/secondary combatant. The Inquisitor seems to get much better toys to fulfilling these roles
Inspire Courage
HasteGood Hope (stacks with both the above)
While the inquisitor might mop up the battlefield in a PvP with the bard, the bards party will trash the inquisitor's party.
The bard is the guy everyone picks first to be on their team.
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Inspire Courage
Haste
Good Hope (stacks with both the above)While the inquisitor might mop up the battlefield in a PvP with the bard, the bards party will trash the inquisitor's party.
The bard is the guy everyone picks first to be on their team.
I agree with Haste and Inspire Courage is awesome. But why would good hope stack with it? They are both morale bonuses and the same bonues don't stack (except dodge)
If you wanna compare spell lists?
I'll see your Haste (admittedly THE best 3rd level buff) and Good Hope (which I don't think stacks-I could be wrong) and raise you
Gtr Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Keen edge, Magic Circle, Prayer, Coordinated Effort and Righteous Vigor.
Good Hope grants a Morale bonus to attack and Inspire Courage grants a competence bonus to attack and damage. So... they stack.
Greater Magic Weapon = 1 touched targetMagic Vestment = 1 touched target
Keen Edge = 1 close target
Magic Circle = Alright this is nice one
Prayer = Also nice, though I think Inspire Courage is still better (on the buff side of things)
Coordinated Effort = Irrelevant, Bards have this spell also
Righteous Vigor = 1 touched target
So yeah, the Inquisitor has some nice buffs, but they are mainly single target buffs. Where as a Level 7 Bard could relatively easily buff the entire party in 2 rounds (Standard for Haste, Move for Inspire Courage +2, Second Standard for Good Hope). And look, the entire party has a +5 to hit, +4 to damage, +2 to Fortitude and Will, +3 to Reflex, +2 to ability checks, +2 to skill checks, +1 dodge to AC, an extra attack when full attacking, and an increase in movement speed. That's a pretty sizable bump in the entire party's effectiveness for not even two full rounds of actions.
Bard DPR isn't bad with inspire courage running, especially when you start counting all those hits from other party members that would have been misses without it.
I've got to agree with Ardenup. While the Bard makes an awesome party buffer, I feel like the Arcane Duelist should have given up some of it's buffing awesomeness to make it a better fighter.
To me Bladethirst was the core feature of Arcane Duelist, and should have been the performance that he would be using the most often. However, it's not available at low levels, merely situational at medium levels, and almost completely useless at the highest levels (when your arcane focused weapon is capping out it's +10 enchantment bonus). Unless you are the only physical damage dealer in the party, it's almost always going to be better to Inspire Courage than to use Bladethirst.
If they got rid of Inspire Courage for something else, and focused the class more on Bladethirst, I think we'd have had a winner.
Bard DPR isn't bad with inspire courage running, especially when you start counting all those hits from other party members that would have been misses without it.Yeah, I know it pays to help others buuutt.. Lets face it points next to your name look alot better than assists..
Well, with that outlook and the analysis above, why spend effort pounding a square bard into a round DPR hole instead of just running inquisitor?
Arcane duelists make good arcane archers :). Inquisitors are divine and cannot :(. But they come with a free Fro-gurt :).
The question is what are you expecting out of the arcane duelist?
Remember any buff he's providing to the party he's providing to himself as well, and he has arcane strike on top of that as well. In addition to his arcane weapon bond allowing him to make his weapon cheaper and more directly what he wants.
Also the spell list is critical -- yes there are some nice buffs, but for the bard the best part is that is a small fraction of his actual spell list.
In addition he has battlefield control spells, debuffs, utility spells, defensive spells, and combat control features in spells like inspire Gallantry.
The arcane duelist is a great weapon against arcane casters as well -- he's one of the few people that can take teleport tactician and get in a situation to use it.
The arcane duelist is an arcane caster, in armor, with healing capabilities, buffing capabilities, and combat capabilities that currently isn't seen in other classes (the closest arcane equivlent would be a witch eldritch knight).
Abraham everything that you said is exactly the reason why I love bards so much. But I still have major issues with how Bladethirst was worked into the Arcane Duelist.
I think Bladethirst was a fantastic idea, it's a performance that I'd love to use, and it adds flavor that really sets the Arcane Duelist apart from the normal Bard. But unless you are fighting creatures that are incorporeal or vulnerable to electricity, then Inspire Courage is going to completely outclass Bladethirst. So to be most effective, I am stuck Inspiring Courage 95% of the time just like a normal bard.
This just irks me the wrong way.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I was under the impression that only Clerics could select subdomains, so Inquisitors could not choose them. I seem to remember this being discussed on another thread.
That is correct.
That rule is currently unpopular, but it is the rule. Subdomains are clerics only.
Abraham everything that you said is exactly the reason why I love bards so much. But I still have major issues with how Bladethirst was worked into the Arcane Duelist.
I think Bladethirst was a fantastic idea, it's a performance that I'd love to use, and it adds flavor that really sets the Arcane Duelist apart from the normal Bard. But unless you are fighting creatures that are incorporeal or vulnerable to electricity, then Inspire Courage is going to completely outclass Bladethirst. So to be most effective, I am stuck Inspiring Courage 95% of the time just like a normal bard.
This just irks me the wrong way.
Bladethirst is a replacement for Suggestion, a performance that I've never seen used in a game, ever. As far as something for nothing goes, it's pretty damn good, I think.
Let's say I'm a level 9 bard. I can change my +3 weapon into a +5 weapon in order to bypass DR? Sweet! I'll guess I'll just rely on Lingering Performance to extend my Inspire Courage for a couple of rounds.
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Abraham everything that you said is exactly the reason why I love bards so much. But I still have major issues with how Bladethirst was worked into the Arcane Duelist.
I think Bladethirst was a fantastic idea, it's a performance that I'd love to use, and it adds flavor that really sets the Arcane Duelist apart from the normal Bard. But unless you are fighting creatures that are incorporeal or vulnerable to electricity, then Inspire Courage is going to completely outclass Bladethirst. So to be most effective, I am stuck Inspiring Courage 95% of the time just like a normal bard.
This just irks me the wrong way.
Bladethirst is a replacement for Suggestion, a performance that I've never seen used in a game, ever. As far as something for nothing goes, it's pretty damn good, I think.
Let's say I'm a level 9 bard. I can change my +3 weapon into a +5 weapon in order to bypass DR? Sweet! I'll guess I'll just rely on Lingering Performance to extend my Inspire Courage for a couple of rounds.
Hate to break it to you Hogarth, but starting Bladethirst would end the Lingering Performance
If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.
But I have to agree with much of what has already been said: The Arcane Duelist is the anti-mage party buffer, where inquisitor is a bit more selfish. They have their role and they fill it well. A party with just an arcane duelist and an inquisitor would do quite well, actually.
Well, with that outlook and the analysis above, why spend effort pounding a square bard into a round DPR hole instead of just running inquisitor?
Not to be overly plug-happy, but my iron mage might fit that round hole better!
Arcane duelists make good arcane archers :). Inquisitors are divine and cannot :(. But they come with a free Fro-gurt :).
But the Fro-gurt is cursed.
Arcane duelists make good arcane archers :). Inquisitors are divine and cannot :(. But they come with a free Fro-gurt :).But the Fro-gurt is cursed.
Hey! I like Fro-gurt!
I personally think that Arcane Duelists are better than inquisitors by virtue of being more team-oriented, but YMMV. If your team is full of selfish SoBs who don't appreciate support roles, then go with inquisitor.
Does the Eldritch Knight still have a role at all? O_o I thought they might be *somewhat* redeemed by the new buff-based touch spells and BAB-based twilight knife, but they don't seem strong enough to really make EKs come into their own.
The inquisitor is definitely better as far as by herself... But all the stuff the Arcane Duellist gets keeps stacking and stacking as he buffs, and THEN he enters the fight.
I will say that with the protection domain and her giant initiative the inquisitor has a lot easier time surviving, especially with a decent dex and a ring of evasion. Plus you can give part of your giant saves to your allies for a bit if you think they'll need them.
The Inquisitor doesn't have as much to worry about as the Arcane Duellist, but that's because she's more melee oriented and was built fighter tough. The Duellist is kind of supposed to advance in to finish someone and then keep behind the fighter as far as melee is concerned.
I think the two would make a great team, personally. I'm the inquisitor and you gave me bonuses on my bonuses?
This is going to be awesome.
*cue guitar solo*
But unless you are fighting creatures that are incorporeal or vulnerable to electricity, then Inspire Courage is going to completely outclass Bladethirst. So to be most effective, I am stuck Inspiring Courage 95% of the time just like a normal bard.
The +1 choices for Bladethirst are: defending, distance, ghost touch, keen, mighty cleaving, returning, shock, and seeking. I don't know about you, but I find more than just ghost touch or shock useful! Granted, some of them are more useful than others (and shock is actually near the bottom of that list).
This just irks me the wrong way.
The arcane duelist is a variant bard, with a slightly greater emphasis on combat. It is not a "duskblade lite," designed to focus primarily on combat. Yes, the inquisitor is a better one-on-one combatant, just like the cleric and druid are better combatants than the sorcerer and wizard; the bard spell list has a better selection of battlefield control and utility spells. That's just part of the thematic difference between arcane and divine in D&D and Pathfinder.
The Arcane Duelist is a tasty delicious melee oriented party support apple.
The Inquisitor is a juicy, sweet melee-or-ranged oriented divine solo badass orange.
Each does what they are supposed to do well. Comparing them is fruitless. (HA!)
Consider also this: I probably won't allow most of the APG classes in my campaign because their flavor doesn't suit my campaign. I will probably allow most of the core class archetypes, because they do suit my campaign. So very hypothetically were you a player in my game, you wouldn't even get Inquisitor as a choice. I concede that I may be the only GM in the universe who decides to do this, but something to take into consideration.
Does the Eldritch Knight still have a role at all?
Yes. A smartly designed/advanced eldritch knight can have equal/higher BAB and better/more spells than an arcane duelist. Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 4/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 10 gives BAB +17 and spell progression as a sorcerer 16 (8th level spells); Fighter 4/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10 gives BAB +17 and progression as a wizard 15 (8th level spells); Paladin 3/Sorcerer 9/Eldritch Knight 8 gives BAB +15 and spell progression as a sorcerer 16 (8th level spells); Paladin 3/Sorcerer 2/Dragon Disciple 8/Eldritch Knight 7 gives BAB +17 and progression as a sorcerer 14 (7th level spells); Wizard 5/Ranger 1/Eldritch Knight 10/Loremaster 4 gives BAB +15 and progression as a wizard 18 (9th level spells).
The eldritch knight is not as strong as a party buffer, though.
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But can an Arcane Duelist buff enough and be enough of a threat himself without needing a Full BAB Char.
You make him "good enough" simply by singing inspire courage. Inspire courage turns him into a full BAB character. With a party full of non-full BAB characters, the inspire courage bonus brings all the 3/4 characters to full BAB. That's pretty significant.
In the end you're trying to compare apples to onions. A bard, even an arcane duelist, is going to be focused on helping the group, and if you have a good group who realizes what's going on, they'll quickly see that the bard's abilities all lie in the group and what the group can do that they couldn't do before. In a group of four, those four extra hasted attacks can all be attributed to the bard. If inspire courage lets four new hits occur, the bard has contributed a minimum bonus of four times their inspire courage bonus to the group (more if it lets things like the rogue's sneak attack actually hit).
Furthermore, bards also have access to some of the significant control spells, and as most players are well aware, control of the battlefield and negating the other team's ability to hit you at all is easily the easiest way to win fights. BAB and damage isn't the end-all-be-all of the game; sure it's helpful and important, but if you can set up scenarios where your opponents can't fight back, who cares if it takes you five rounds to kill them or ten, they're still dead (and in the case where you've prevented them from attacking you, you group is stronger for it).
I can tell by your questions and answers though that you want to play the selfish character that receives the limelight, and for that reason alone you should be picking an inquisitor. If you're not willing to play the team player type character, you'll never be satisfied with the class.
Hate to break it to you Hogarth, but starting Bladethirst would end the Lingering Performance
If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.
Oh. Well, that just blows. :-)
Oh. Well, that just blows. :-)
Hate to break it to you Hogarth, but starting Bladethirst would end the Lingering Performance
If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.
ther is however a feat i forget the name that lets you maintain any morale bonus for 1d4 rounds past the round it finshed
I think they are pretty well ballancd against eachother. The Arcane Duelist will get more consistent damage at a competative rate and simultaneously buff the party. The inquisitor will excell where he does, with some of the highest peak damage in the game, but will be extremely limitted in how frequently he can do this, and will likely manage his resources more and bring him in line with normal damge dealers. I would rather have the Arcane Duelist in my party, I would rather play the inquisitor (right now because I have wanted to since the beta started and haven't had a good chance yet). I would enjoy playing both classs.
Arcane duelists are extremely effective dueling mages, since they get all the mage-fighting feats for free.
Also (on a different topic), don't discount the DPR gains associated with Penetrating Strike and Greater Penetrating Strike. Inquisitors only get to bypass 3 DR types (magic, which everybody can bypass anyway, a single alignment which must be part of their own alignment, and adamantine). Greater Penetrating Strike reduces DR by 10, regardless of the type, and even reduces DR/- by 5. Penetrating Strike is also always-on, an extraordinary ability (rather than supernatural, which wouldn't function in an anti-magic zone), and doesn't take up any kind of "ability slot".
Hate to break it to you Hogarth, but starting Bladethirst would end the Lingering Performance
Just read that myself. Kind of makes me wonder what the point of that feat is then. Sure it keeps your performance going for 2 rounds if you for some reason you get interrupted and can't maintain it but that's pretty minor and situational for to spend a feat on. Now if allowed you start a second performance while you previous one lingers for 2 rounds, now that's a feat worth taking!
If not that then if feat was scalable and allowed you to pick up a lingering performance then the feat would useful. Say you get stunned for 1 round. You performance is over but it lingers for 2 rounds. At the end of the 2 rounds it's done and you have to spend another performance to start it up again. Now if this feat allowed you to pick up the performance after being stunned if done before the lingering effect ends then it's worthwhile.
Just read that myself. Kind of makes me wonder what the point of that feat is then. Sure it keeps your performance going for 2 rounds if you for some reason you get interrupted and can't maintain it but that's pretty minor and situational for to spend a feat on. Now if allowed you start a second performance while you previous one lingers for 2 rounds, now that's a feat worth taking!
If not that then if feat was scalable and allowed you to pick up a lingering performance then the feat would useful. Say you get stunned for 1 round. You performance is over but it lingers for 2 rounds. At the end of the 2 rounds it's done and you have to spend another performance to start it up again. Now if this feat allowed you to pick up the performance after being stunned if done before the lingering effect ends then it's worthwhile.
It's "multiply your performance rounds per day by 3" more or less. But yeah, it'd be nice if it let you start another one and keep the previous going for 2 rounds, too.
Where is that? Might be good. Haven't Found it in my APG.
ther is however a feat i forget the name that lets you maintain any morale bonus for 1d4 rounds past the round it finshed
Not certain what Phasics is talking about, but there's a campaign trait in the Second Darkness Player's Guide that does that. That could be what s/he's thinking of.
When it comes down to it the big difference between the bard and inquisitor is in the buffs for DPR.
AT level 10:
The inquisitor beats the bard against one target:
+11 to hit, +13+2d6 to damage
compared to:
+7 to hit, +9 to damage
However: against multiple opponents the bard fares much better -- the reason being the Inquisitor must use his judgements (2nd judgement ability) and specific target buffing spells (like wrath) in order to deal that damage. In general damage buffing the bard comes out ahead since the inquisitor has to fall back on weapon of awe, and heroism. This drops his to hit bonus by 3 (2 sacred, 1 morale) and his damage bonus by 5 (3 morale 2 sacred) and only if he still has bane left -- once his bane is gone he loses 2 more from both.
Without the target specific buffs he's looking at:
+5 to hit + 5 to damage (divine might, weapon of awe, heroism)
With Bane it becomes:
+7 to hit + 7 to damage+2d6
With wrath and judgement he gets the final +4 to hit and +6 to damage.
Where as the bard always gets his full +7 to hit, + 9 to damage and shares +5 to hit and + 4 to damage with the rest of the party (as well as the save boosts, speed boost, extra attack and AC boost from haste).
The bard also has better defensive spell choices, and utility spells. Mass feather step for example is not available to the inquisitor, nor is mirror image.
The morale bonus thing isn't actually that useful is the only problem...at least not for inspire courage. It gives morale to the saves, but the attack and damage buff is competence.
The morale bonus thing isn't actually that useful is the only problem...at least not for inspire courage. It gives morale to the saves, but the attack and damage buff is competence.
Not sure what you are trying to say. Good hope is a great stacker with inspire courage. +2 to all saves instead of just against fear, and the +2 to hit and damage stack with inspire courage as they are different types of bonuses. For the most played levels (5~10) this is doubling the bard's bonuses granted for his party (+2 for inspire courage + 2 for good hope = +4) and granting a fresh bonus to all saving throws that in all likelihood will stack with anything else the party has.
For the inquisitor who has three main buff types (luck, morale, sacred) it's a matter of choosing the right buff for the situation:
1 BBEG? Use Wrath or Righteous Wrath
A bunch of monsters? Use heroism
1 BBEG? Use Judgement
A bunch of monsters? Use weapon of Awe
Self buff? Divine Power or Divine Favor
Party buff? Prayer.
Not sure what you are trying to say. Good hope is a great stacker with inspire courage. +2 to all saves instead of just against fear, and the +2 to hit and damage stack with inspire courage as they are different types of bonuses. For the most played levels (5~10) this is doubling the bard's bonuses granted for his party (+2 for inspire courage + 2 for good hope = +4) and granting a fresh bonus to all saving throws that in all likelihood will stack with anything else the party has.
Sorry, I shoulda been clearer. Stacking morale bonuses on top of inspire courage is, indeed, great, but the trait that lets morale bonuses persist for 1d4 rounds isn't all that great because inspire courage gives competence rather than morale bonuses to your attacks and damage. So even with said trait, you can't weave performance types to keep more than one going (at least, not using inspire courage as one of them).