I mean there's the obvious "hulk smash" role where it's all about the damage, but at the same time the rage bonuses to strength make several of the combat manuveurs attractive too. But I really wonder if the slower feat progression (as compared to a fighter) actually makes that a better or at least equivalent approach to just maximizing damage output.
So I guess I'm curious, what do people see as the role of the barbarian in a party from an optimization standpoint? Does/as anyone built barbarians that do more than just hit stuff repeatedly in combat?
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My current barbarian (ironically... the Hulk) smashes everything. He is VERY protective of his "daughter" Betty (Gnome sorcerer) so he will rush to protect her if she is hurt. Even if it puts the rest of the group in more danger. That would be the only exception the the Smash everything rule.
I don't see another option for the barbarian other than the Tank. I do think there can be other types than the "Hulk Smash" though. Riverwind comes to mind from Dragonlance I guess.
I don't see another option for the barbarian other than the Tank.
There's the thing though, when I think tank I think high AC hard to hurt, but that's not really the barbarian's strength either. No heavy armor, poorish saves... all they've really got going for them is high hp (from a tank perspective anyways.) And if that's the case it kinda puts me in the mind that they're more DPR with a dash of meat shield.
I do think there can be other types than the "Hulk Smash" though. Riverwind comes to mind from Dragonlance I guess.
I get that, but that's really more an roleplaying perspective than an optimization one.
I was thinking about playing a barbarian with improved dirty trick, imp trip/disarm, but started thinking is that really actually viable? Or does the slower feat progression mean I'd be better off with going straight fighter? (When I say better off, I'm thinking in terms of the characters effectiveness... do barbarians have a role in battlefield control or is that just using a hammer to drive a screw in?)
I've sighted a barbarian at the club I attend.
She's a dex 18 str 10 build with dodge and mobility going on, and she weilds a pair of Chakram (obviously, not at the same time, as she lacks the feats)
she's also a good (Ish) skill build with a 14 inteligence. She seems to be holding up well against the fighter, but time will tel when the levels start to climb (they are 3rd level right now, she has superior HP, but not by much and comparable AC. It's her rage that puts her up a notch)
Batts
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I see the Barbarian as more of a Tomahawk Cruise Missile of Doom rather than a "tank".
We tend to use them as a "point it at the thing that needs to be dying the most" and then have the cleric/druid spot heal him to keep the barbarian up enough to do the deed.
That being said, my brother in law made a 2WF barbarian with Weapon Finesse and throwing axes...was actually fairly ugly. Not 1 or 2 big weapon smashes, but like 8 possible attacks with iterative/AoO attacks and surprisingly effective when buffed.
I do like the alternative types thrown into the APG.
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I was thinking tank as in damage soak. Not High AC. Barbarians have Battlefield control in killing the battlefield and in being able to have multiple enemies surround them and soak damage. I also use the intimidate rage powers to demoralize the enemies.
If the Hulk was not in the my part, some battles would have turned out BAD. The only time he was very not helpful is when he deceded to check the door for traps by opening it.
Does/as anyone built barbarians that do more than just hit stuff repeatedly in combat?
As a martial (full BAB) class with no spells, that is the barbarian's main focus, the same as a fighter. The only real difference is that a fighter uses feats and training instead of rage powers. Also, you don't have to completely focus a barbarian on melee combat; for example:
Elf (Ekujae) Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager, Spirit Totem) 1
14 Str (+2), 16 Dex (+3), 12 Con (+1), 10 Int (0), 10 Wis (0), 12 Cha (+1); 15-point buy
Racial Traits: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con; Medium Size; Speed 30 ft; Low-Light Vision; Elven Immunities (immune to magical sleep, +2 save vs. Enchantment); Keen Senses (+2 Perception checks); Silent Hunter (reduce penalty to Stealth for moving by 5, Stealth check while running at -20); Weapon Familiarity (proficient with longbows, longswords, rapiers, short bows; "elven" weapons are martial)
Class Abilities: Fast Movement (+10 ft in light/medium armor), Rage (5 rounds per day; +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will saves, -2 AC)
Skills: Intimidate 1, Knowledge (Nature) 1, Perception 1, Stealth 1, Survival 1
Traits: Boarded in Mwangi Expanse (Polyglot as bonus language, +1 Knowledge (Nature) checks on jungle; boarded at Bloodcove), Warrior of Old (+2 Initiative)
Feats: Toughness
Combat: AC 16, 16 hp, +3 melee or +4 ranged, Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +0, Init +5, CMB +3, CMD 16
Gear: Studded Leather, Short Bow, 20 Arrows, Longspear, Bastard Sword, Dagger, 7gp
A projected version at 4th level, after completing Souls for the Smuggler's Shiv:
Elf (Ekujae) Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager, Spirit Totem) 4
15 Str (+2), 16 Dex (+3), 12 Con (+1), 10 Int (0), 10 Wis (0), 12 Cha (+1)
Racial Traits: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con; Medium Size; Speed 33 ft; Low-Light Vision; Elven Immunities (immune to magical sleep, +2 save vs. Enchantment); Keen Senses (+2 Perception checks); Silent Hunter (reduce penalty to Stealth for moving by 5, Stealth check while running at -20); Weapon Familiarity (proficient with longbows, longswords, rapiers, short bows; "elven" weapons are martial)
Class Abilities: Fast Movement (+10 ft in light/medium armor), Rage (11 rounds per day; +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will saves, -2 AC), Invulnerability (DR 2/-, DR 4/- vs. non-lethal damage), Rage Powers (Lesser Spirit Totem (free 1d4+1 slam against adjacent foe at +5 attack bonus), Guarded Life (if below 0 hp, convert 4 hp of normal damage to non-lethal damage; automatically stabilizes if brought below 0 hp by lethal damage)), Extreme Endurance (protected from hot conditions as Endure Elements)
Skills: Intimidate 4, Knowledge (Nature) 2, Perception 4, Stealth 4, Survival 3
Traits: Boarded in Mwangi Expanse (Polyglot as bonus language, +1 Knowledge (Nature) checks on jungle), Warrior of Old (+2 Initiative)
Feats: Power Attack, Toughness
Special: Studied with Aerys (+1 Will saves vs. compulsion effects), Studied with Ishirou (+1 CMB and CMD while using a sword), Studied with Sasha (+1 Initiative)
Combat: AC ??, 39 hp, +6 melee or +7 ranged, Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1, Init +6, CMB +6, CMD 19
Gear: 6,000 gp worth; purchase an elven curve blade ASAP
The barbarian has more skills and skill points than a fighter (except for those who are trained at a fighting school per the Gazetteer or Campaign Setting books, sacrificing their 1st level bonus feat); there's no need (other than player preconceptions) for the barbarian to be a stereotypical "dumb brute." A barbarian can fill the "wilderness scout" role almost as well as a ranger; also, there are several rage powers based on Intimidate and demoralizing foes.
If you have the Advanced Player's Guide, there are a few concepts that may be worth looking at: Brutal Pugilist (grappling/unarmed), Hurler (throwing large objects), Mounted Fury, etc. There are some interesting rage powers, as well.
Definitely not the "tank".
Put a heavily armored fighter into a group against a bunch of monsters, and the cleric will have to heal him a couple times. Replace that fighter with a barbarian the cleric will have to heal him a whole bunch of times.
Tanks should avoid damage. All a barbarian does is bleed more than anyone else.
It's a terribly inefficient way to "tank".
Amazing HP might make up for mediocre AC in terms of barbarian surviveability, but it is a HUGE drain on party resources if you deliberately use it that way.
No, to me, a barbarian is a secondary damage-dealer. Someone else, anyone else, in the group should be the "tank" avoiding damage while the barbarian hacks stuff to bits - hopefully without drawing too much fire.
Unfortunately, it almost never works out that way.
Indeed, given the much smaller parties modern groups tend to run with, a barbarian is often your 'best' tank if you have one in your party. Your typical group might have a wizard, priest, rogue, and barbarian. Who's your tank? A summoned or illusionary monster perhaps :-) Ranger are very often archer builds also, which usually makes them not want to tank. Really, IMO, the best tanks are fighters and paladins (paladin saves make up to some degree for the lower CMB and feats to make them more sticky, and paladins for RP reasons frequently get more 'aggro' to begin with in most games). But you often don't have one of those in your party. Consider this group of 4---Ranger, Barbarian, Sorceror, Druid. It's a viable group, especially outdoors and especially in a mostly simulationist game where you have considerably more choice of your battles than in a gamist or narrative game.
All that you say is true. In any of those situations, I would still try to avoid playing the barb as a "tank" and instead play him as a skirmisher. Let those casters and pet owners use their "battlefield control" aiblities to split up and delay the enemy while your barbarian skirmishes to pick them off one-by-one without every going "toe-to-toe" with any of them.
In essence, if you have a druid and a sorcerer in the group, that's a lot of spells that could and likely should be used as "battlefield control". And with your druid animal companion and, later, the ranger animal companion, there is even more "battlefield control" to be had. The ranger skirmishes or snipes and the barbarian skirmishes, presenting a moving front against a disorganized enemy and nobody "tanks".
If you can manage it.
It's still way more efficient than mopping up all that barbarian blood with umpteen healing spells after every battle.
I play a high DEX, High AC Halfling Barbarian.
He also fills in for the 'party scout' role, by being a 30' mover, and having 6-7 skill points per level.
Interesting. I thought the purpose of the Barbarian was to play a Ranger without spells.
How viable is a barbarian build focusing on Intimidate, with Intimidating Glare, Terrifying Howl (maybe supported by not dumping Charisma, Skill Focus (Intimidate) and Intimidating Prowess) and later Dazzling Display or Dreadful Carnage?
How viable is a barbarian build focusing on Intimidate, with Intimidating Glare, Terrifying Howl (maybe supported by not dumping Charisma, Skill Focus (Intimidate) and Intimidating Prowess) and later Dazzling Display or Dreadful Carnage?
It can work, although you won't get much use out of it against creatures immune to fear/mind-affecting effects. You can (with Intimidating Prowess) be even more effective than a bard in some circumstances.
Barbarians do a lot more than smash. They also slash, chop, rend, stab, splat, squish, and sqorsh.What's sqorsh?
It's what the barbarian does to you when you question his spelling or vocabulary. ^_^
Well to the best of my knowledge barbarians really are only good for 3 things.
1. Combat Maneuvers. With powerful blow, and a host of other combat maneuver check
2. Tough guy. No other class has a class ability that gives a flat-out con bonus due to a class ability. Plus the fact they already have full fort save, plus the new feat in the APG upping the rage con bonus by +2, and giving you die-hard while raging on top of that, wow. Must have feat.
3. With the new beast rage feats, at level 10 you can pounce. Grant it the other feats don't work with THWs, but it is still good, and the claw attacks are good backup weapons.
Barbarians can:
- Beat the c**p out of enemies
- Control the battlefield aroun him with fear effects and/or maneuvers
- Be a secondary skillmonkey (not at the Rogue level, but enough to be a guide in the wilderness)
- Be the brawlers and enforcers of the party, focusing on intimidate and "hard" persuasion methods.
The amount of emphasis you can put on each of this, depends from what feats you choose, what rage powers you choose, and how you assign skill points.
Remember that barbrarian has defenses comparable to fighter, but in different departments. Has more HP, but lesser AC. Neverheless, uncanny dodge can save him from situation that couldbe troublesome for the fighter - just compare the two classes facing two flanking rogues (or babau, or such).
Barbarian has few more ways to be impervious to effects that target their will or to magic in general. Gonin on that route, those performs far better than bravery.
BTW i seriously suggest to take a look in the APG, because there are rage powers that better support this concept. As an example, add the overrun and knockdown feats to the core strenght surge, unexpected strike and knockback increase hugely your versatility in "physical" control.
Intimidate is the reason I never dump charisma as a barbarian. You have a lot of rage powers that work with it as well.
I like the new drunken brute/invulnerable rager options for the barb combined with a reach weapon and armor spikes. I can see them working as a kind of opportunity attacking tower with giant reach and giant damage when self buffing off of their move action potions to get bull's strength and enlarge person. Barb with a lucerne hammer can have a reach of 20' and deal 3d6+30 or so damage at relatively low levels. The biggest problem with tanks in DnD is that there's no aggro, so monsters usually just avoid ur high AC guys who can actually take a hit and go after ur glass artillery in the back. Not so with a 20' reach tank with some of the nice barbarian rage powers for extra provokes. Now, ur enemies will be hard pressed to get a ranged attack off, let alone a spell, and they can just plain forget about moving past you. Sure, your AC is gonna be crap with rage and enlarge person on you every battle, so if ur GM lets you, you really need the invulnerable rager class feature too, the extra DR makes you hardly even care about terrible AC, as youll be taking just a bit more damage from attacks as you would if you were a 30 AC monk. Anyway, thats my 2 cents on an effective barb build thats not entirely hulk.