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Aeon's alignment changed between 1e and 2e. Who and how Petitioner becomes Pleroma in 2e?
Sven Selfversson: Didn't meant to be me or Omphalos who mentioned before in this AMA thread.
We changed the alignment for aeons because lawful neutral was the only alignment among the 9 primary outsider types that was populated in 1st edition by a type of creature that we could only use because of the OGL. Every other category was either something we made up, or something from mythology. For lawful neutral, the inevitable is a 100% created for D&D and owned by WotC creature that we can't use in non-OGL content like novels or miniatures or the like. So we transitioned aeons out of the role of neutral and into lawful neutral, because I found the idea of seeking balance (aka seeking overwhelming stability) to be fundamentally lawful and an excellent opposition from the proteans, which seek imbalance and entropy and constant change. And because that would leave the neutral role to the psychopomps, which are much better suited to that role.
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Is there any sort of Lore explanation for the transition from Ioun Stones to Aeon Stones? I would have though all the Azlanti exploration of Ruins of Azlant would have been a great place to find out they actually called the stones something else (especially with the Aeon Empire in Starfinder), but we didn't see anything like that when we played through it. Is it just a change we're supposed to ignore as 1E becomes P2E? I liked the changes that had Lore updates to show they "weren't really" changes, just an updated understanding
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Is there any sort of Lore explanation for the transition from Ioun Stones to Aeon Stones? I would have though all the Azlanti exploration of Ruins of Azlant would have been a great place to find out they actually called the stones something else (especially with the Aeon Empire in Starfinder), but we didn't see anything like that when we played through it. Is it just a change we're supposed to ignore as 1E becomes P2E? I liked the changes that had Lore updates to show they "weren't really" changes, just an updated understanding
This is a case where we made a change to both distance ourselves from D&D's tradition and to lean into our own creations, to give aeons a bit more presence in the setting. Since these stones are so important to the world, we needed a name for them that we could use in non-OGL stuff like fiction.
This is a case where there's no in-world Lore for the change–the intent is that they were always called aeon stones, and if we were to time travel back to publish those books again today, then we'd call them aeon stones from the start.
Same as for some of the other name changes, like the bloodbug, web lurker, and ankhrav. THey're not in-world lore changes, but examples of Paizo being more confident in its own creation.
Think of it like us correcting a typo rather than changing lore.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Is there any sort of Lore explanation for the transition from Ioun Stones to Aeon Stones? I would have though all the Azlanti exploration of Ruins of Azlant would have been a great place to find out they actually called the stones something else (especially with the Aeon Empire in Starfinder), but we didn't see anything like that when we played through it. Is it just a change we're supposed to ignore as 1E becomes P2E? I liked the changes that had Lore updates to show they "weren't really" changes, just an updated understandingThis is a case where we made a change to both distance ourselves from D&D's tradition and to lean into our own creations, to give aeons a bit more presence in the setting. Since these stones are so important to the world, we needed a name for them that we could use in non-OGL stuff like fiction.
This is a case where there's no in-world Lore for the change–the intent is that they were always called aeon stones, and if we were to time travel back to publish those books again today, then we'd call them aeon stones from the start.
Same as for some of the other name changes, like the bloodbug, web lurker, and ankhrav. THey're not in-world lore changes, but examples of Paizo being more confident in its own creation.
Think of it like us correcting a typo rather than changing lore.
Isn't the name Ioun Stones originally from Vance though, not D&D? Wouldn't that make them just as much open source as demons or goblins?
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Isn't the name Ioun Stones originally from Vance though, not D&D? Wouldn't that make them just as much open source as demons or goblins?
It is, but the reasons why Gygax used them in D&D, as far as I know, more or less amounts to him getting permission from Jack Vance to use them, and neither of them realized that D&D would outlive both of them. Hardly a contract or a fee or royalty involved.
Demons and goblins are from mythology. One can use them without having a layer of guilt, I guess, for using someone's copyrighted information without paying them for it.
Erik has some more heartfelt opinions about the topic, since Vance is one of his favorite authors... but basically it feels a little like D&D ripped off Vance and got to stand on his shoulders for free.
Maybe in a little more than a half century from now when Vance's stuff is in public domain, I'll feel less unhappy about that whole situation.
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Is there any chance to see true aeons that have a face? Since Axiomites are counted as aeons.
I suppose there's a chance, but it's unlikely. Aeons aren't meant to be things us humans can really understand or ever really feel comfortable around, and part of making that happen is not giving them faces—the only aeons who get faces so far are the ones that are constructed.
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What games are you plating right now?
Have you played Subnautica?
Back to playing Fallout 76 with the new Brotherhood of Steel update. Slay the Spire a lot. Just finally finished Days Gone. Did a new playthrough and a half of Dark Souls 3. Been tempted by Ascent but I'm waiting for them to patch it a few more times. Might go back to Persona Strikers soon to try to finish it.
Haven't played Subnautica. I've seen a lot of Let's Plays and that's enough for me.
Are you excited about the pending release of Owlcat's Wrath of the Righteous video game?
It being one of my favorite APs, I can't wait to go through as a player instead of GM.
Ooh, have you played Outer Wilds? It's a shortish game about exploring as an astronaut in a small solar system with pretty accurate celestial body physics and solving mysteries through studying an ancient culture.
What's your favorite character in Slay the Spire?
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Are you excited about the pending release of Owlcat's Wrath of the Righteous video game?
It being one of my favorite APs, I can't wait to go through as a player instead of GM.
I'm looking forward to playing it, but I'm more nervous than excited. I developed and helped write this adventure (as opposed to just developing Kingmaker), so for me it's a bit more intense anticipating this game than the previous one. I'm sure it'll be be great, but ... as with upcoming products I've written for Paizo, the anticipation stage leading up to its release is more nerve-wracking for me than exciting.
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Do you have updates on the 10th year Anniversary Kingmaker AP re-release? I may have to move/change address at some point in the near future and I'm wondering when you guys are going to ship these.
I don't, and the management of pledges and addresses and payments is not something I do, but as we get closer to the product's release next year we'll have some more information here on the website somewhere. It's been so long between the crowd funding effort and the shipment that you're absolutely not the only person in this situation or a similar one, so we WILL have something to handle changes and the like. But I don't have details on when, since that's being handled by other departments.
Keep an eye on our website and on the page for the crowdfunding on Game On Tabletop in the meantime, and if we still haven't let folks know how to chagne things by the end of the year or January of 2022, then that's the point to start pressuring us for more answers. Hopefully we'll have more information before then.
It won't appear in this thread though.
Are Groetus and Yog-Sothoth the same entity/aspects of the same entity?
Has there ever been an iteration of Golarion reality where Groetus(or equivalent) was the Deity of Fate and Pharasma(or the equivalent) was the End of all things?
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Has there ever been an iteration of Golarion reality where Groetus(or equivalent) was the Deity of Fate and Pharasma(or the equivalent) was the End of all things?
There's only ever been one iteration where Groetus and Pharasma are in the same reality—the current one.
That said I can only speak to my homebrew and to canonical Golarion. What happens in other campaigns is not up to me.
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Creative Director
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In which order are racial/class features, traits, magical items and feats added to each other? This probably came up at some point already but I only managed to find the example with the magical knack trait...
The problem that came up is a player thinking about playing a companion based sorcerer with the sylvan bloodline. The feat and item in question are boon companion and the robe of arcane heritage.
Would this first use boon companion to bring the companion up to his character level and afterwards increase its progression with the robe or would the feat be rendered useless in that case?
Also when I looked up the issue of whether animal companions can be of a higher level I only found this post (or posts leading to it):
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q9f7&page=3?The-ARG-race-restriction-and- favored-class#141
which was from the time the Aasimar oracle FCO was 1/2 instead of 1/6 and no mention of it apart from that... was that just an adjustment for the oracle issue before it was changed or should it be considered a general rule? There are several things it would affect - like the animal ally feat, sylvan bloodline and so on...
Sorry for the multi-layered question :P
This is a complex rules question, and not an appropriate one to ask on this thread where I don't have the power to render official replies that satisfy customers and employees, and that's such a huge thread that even if I did, those "official answers" would soon be lost.
Your GM is the fastest and most accurate way to get rules answers.
I've only been in here a few times in the past decade. I'm currently working my through since the answers were interesting, and since I had that question on Aeon/Ioun Stones which I asked earlier (also either here or on the Band of Bravos stream I'd asked about how the BoB Shenses and the HV Shensen were related). Given my own difficulties in internet "discussions" I've had over the years, I just want to say I'm very impressed at your patience and discretion at people who actively questioned you in bad faith. The way you've handled yourself is a credit to people and internet discussions and makes me want to leave the internet much less than I do after having my own discussions with close minded people. So that's pretty cool. Thanks,
And since it's a question thread where I'd be in the wrong for not bringing up my own questions, how do you feel about the Dresden Files?
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I've only been in here a few times in the past decade. I'm currently working my through since the answers were interesting, and since I had that question on Aeon/Ioun Stones which I asked earlier (also either here or on the Band of Bravos stream I'd asked about how the BoB Shenses and the HV Shensen were related). Given my own difficulties in internet "discussions" I've had over the years, I just want to say I'm very impressed at your patience and discretion at people who actively questioned you in bad faith. The way you've handled yourself is a credit to people and internet discussions and makes me want to leave the internet much less than I do after having my own discussions with close minded people. So that's pretty cool. Thanks,
And since it's a question thread where I'd be in the wrong for not bringing up my own questions, how do you feel about the Dresden Files?
Thanks for the kind words! It's good to hear that I come across as patient and discrete, because very often I don't feel that way. One of my most oft-used tactics when faced with people who are antagonistic or trolling me or whatever is to write a post and then delete it and write it again and delete it—basically, vent my frustration and emotional response to no one but me, and then if I do end up deciding to post a reply once my blood has cooled, I'm (hopefully) able to do so in a calm and reasonable manner—whether that's to admit my fault and apologize, or to refute the post in a diplomatic manner. In most cases, no reply ("don't feed the trolls") is the right one, but that's often a very tough thing to do.
That said... I'm not a big fan of the Dresden Files—I've never read them, but the genre of "urban fantasy" is just not one that I've ever really gotten into. Given the choice between Cyberpunk and Shadowrun, for example, I'll choose Cyberpunk, for example.
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Creative Director
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Given that she's got a reptilian theme and loves traps, how common is the worship of Andirifkhu among evil communities of kobolds? It seems like some might have a natural affinity for her.
Not that common at all. In my head, I think of kobolds more as devil worshipers, because they, like devils, are mostly lawful evil. The whole take of kobolds being dragons and worshiping dragons isn't super interesting to me although that seems to be a trope that most other folks DO find interesting, and so that's an example of one of many things in Pathfinder where I pretty much let go of my preference as creative director of the game and work to support the overwhelming preference.
But as for Andirifkhu? Maybe some here and there, but no more so than any other ancestry.
Given that she's got a reptilian theme and loves traps, how common is the worship of Andirifkhu among evil communities of kobolds? It seems like some might have a natural affinity for her.Not that common at all. In my head, I think of kobolds more as devil worshipers, because they, like devils, are mostly lawful evil. The whole take of kobolds being dragons and worshiping dragons isn't super interesting to me although that seems to be a trope that most other folks DO find interesting, and so that's an example of one of many things in Pathfinder where I pretty much let go of my preference as creative director of the game and work to support the overwhelming preference.
But as for Andirifkhu? Maybe some here and there, but no more so than any other ancestry.
Mr. James Jacobs.
Do you prefer the older presentation of kobalds? When they were dog people.|
Creative Director
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Do you prefer the older presentation of kobalds? When they were dog people.
I like our current look for them in 2nd edition a lot. The older "scaly dog" image from 1st edition D&D looked more to me like "little imp devil thing" becasue of their horns, which is where I get their devil link I think... but I never really cared much for that look.
Shimye-Magalla was the only Mwangi specific deity I could find for years. I was a little disappointed to see that the Mwangi Expanse only barely references them. I don't suppose there's anywhere else to get more information on this deity or plans for there to be more information?
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Shimye-Magalla was the only Mwangi specific deity I could find for years. I was a little disappointed to see that the Mwangi Expanse only barely references them. I don't suppose there's anywhere else to get more information on this deity or plans for there to be more information?
That's a mini-pantheon of Desna and Gozreh, not a separate deity. The presentation of Shimye-Magalla as a single combined deity in early 1st edition content was an error; we don't do that sort of thing with our deities. It blurs things too much, like if Marvel decided that in some parts of their world, Batman and Superman turned into something called Berbabeldah and functioned like a combo of the two. That's not good for establishing canon, and confuses things, and so on.
It was an error, in other words, that we've corrected. In 2nd edition, the word "Shimye-Magalla" is a word that is used to refer to a mini-pantheon of deities consisting of Gozreh and Desna, but it's not something that needs to be a big part of the setting. Instead, we chose to present Gozreh and Desna as Gozreh and Desna in the book, adjusting their appearance and religions to match the region rather than saying that they "Voltron" into a brand new deity if someome worships them that way. That's not how it should work.
Feel free to keep the old verison in your games if you want, and take comfort in the fact that if you expand on Shimye-Magalla as a singular deity in your game we won't contradict that in print, I guess.
Have you seen Brand New Cherry Flavor and if so, any thoughts?
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Creative Director
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Have you seen Brand New Cherry Flavor and if so, any thoughts?
I'm halfway through it so far, and LOVE it. I'm trying to space out the remaining episodes to make the show last longer, but so far, it's one of the best Netflix originals of the year. Of course, I've been a fan of Nick Antosca's writing and imagination since before the Channel Zero days, when he wrote some of my favorite episodes of Hannibal.
No specific thoughts beyond this, since I've not finished the show yet, and don't wanna drop too many spoilers in or encourage the same...
...but if you're a fan of Channel Zero, of Twin Peaks (or other Lynch stuff), or the body-horror movies from Cronenberg in the 80s (particularly things like Videodrome), then you'll probably really enjoy "Brand New Cherry Flavor."
Do Kobolds shed?
Speaking of Brand New Cherry Flavor, did you every read Todd Grimson's source novel from 1996? I read it back in the day and was super impressed by it. Put it the 10 books to recommend section of my bookshelf,and forgot about. It lacks the Lynch/Cronenberg(ian) and post 2000 horror references of the TV show, but is well worth a read. Like you I am stretching out my enjoyment of the Netflix show.
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How do you visualize Low Light Vision and Darkvision?
Low Light Vision: Like regular vision but still works in low light, so that you can still make out colors and see far when others can't. It literally just makes your vision work normally in gloomy conditions, and doesn't otherwise impact things, other than the shift from being able to see to being blind in the dark is much closer to an "off" switch.
Darkvision: Like watching a black & white movie.
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Speaking of Brand New Cherry Flavor, did you every read Todd Grimson's source novel from 1996? I read it back in the day and was super impressed by it. Put it the 10 books to recommend section of my bookshelf,and forgot about. It lacks the Lynch/Cronenberg(ian) and post 2000 horror references of the TV show, but is well worth a read. Like you I am stretching out my enjoyment of the Netflix show.
I haven't read it, and had never heard of Todd Grimson until this show. I'll probably not read it, to be honest—I've got literally hundreds of unread books already, after all, but thanks for the recommendation! (That said, the Lynch/Cronenberg elements of the show are things I'm REALLY enjoying, so not having them there wouldn't be great.)
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Creative Director
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Is there any way a Lawful character might believe in or develop some sort of connection to concepts like change and entropy, or would those things be solely accessible to nonlawful characters, given almost any deity or extraplanar creature associated with them is some form of Chaotic?
Not if you want to retain the value of the alignment system. To me, that's like saying, "Is there any way a good character might stay good even though they do evil acts?" It's nonsense, to me, for a lawful character to be deeply invested in entropy.
Is there any way a Lawful character might believe in or develop some sort of connection to concepts like change and entropy, or would those things be solely accessible to nonlawful characters, given almost any deity or extraplanar creature associated with them is some form of Chaotic?Not if you want to retain the value of the alignment system. To me, that's like saying, "Is there any way a good character might stay good even though they do evil acts?" It's nonsense, to me, for a lawful character to be deeply invested in entropy.
What if they regard said entropy as a universal law (it is in IRL thermodynamics), and focus on regulating where it strikes?
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Is there chance to, or always happen any of extraplanar knows itself's true name?
There's a chance, yes. If the storyteller/GM wants it to be, it can be. If you're referring to rules in Secrets of Magic, though, I don't have much to say there, since I don't yet have an office copy, haven't read the book, and don't feel like digging up the PDF to double check, since that would require reading and studying a section of new rules I'm not yet familiar with in this edition when instead I'm spending these few minutes before getting to work on this adventure I'm developing for 2022 answering questions on this thread. :-P
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What if they regard said entropy as a universal law (it is in IRL thermodynamics), and focus on regulating where it strikes?Is there any way a Lawful character might believe in or develop some sort of connection to concepts like change and entropy, or would those things be solely accessible to nonlawful characters, given almost any deity or extraplanar creature associated with them is some form of Chaotic?Not if you want to retain the value of the alignment system. To me, that's like saying, "Is there any way a good character might stay good even though they do evil acts?" It's nonsense, to me, for a lawful character to be deeply invested in entropy.
The obnoxious pedantry of that does feel lawful, but those who use semantics to justify things that they shouldn't do are evil. That sort of thing tends to annoy me at game tables. A character who's lawful and seeks to regulate and destroy entropic energies where they manifest, and studies up on the lore of chaos to be better at it is fine. That's very different than someone who encourages or worships or idolizes entropy.
In Pathfinder, thermodynamics has nothing to do with the dissolution of quintessence or the machinations of supernatural serpentine monsters from another plane of existence.
I'm spending these few minutes before getting to work on this adventure I'm developing for 2022 answering questions on this thread. :-P
Stand alone or AP?
It's a standalone adventure. I'm currently running this line.I'm spending these few minutes before getting to work on this adventure I'm developing for 2022 answering questions on this thread. :-PStand alone or AP?
That's pretty exciting! I really enjoyed (reading) Malevolence. Can't wait for a chance to run it!
I'm assuming this in an unannounced product?
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I'm assuming this in an unannounced product?
Yup; unannounced. I think it'll get announced next month at Gen Con via one of our virtual seminars though. Whether or not it gets mentioned in Erik's "Welcome to Gen Con" video or it gets left to me to announce on one of the ones I"m doing later, I'm not yet sure, although I assume it'll be both.
To start folks speculating though, it's set in a city we've set adventures in before.
ALSO: Glad you enjoyed reading "Malevolence"! One thing that has always been important to me for all adventures I write or develop is that they are, above all else, enjoyable to read. In my decades of gaming, I've never run an adventure I didn't enjoy reading, because to me, if it's not fun to read the adventure, it's not worth running.
Morality question here, mostly concerning 1e but likely applicable to 2e as well: Some races and subclasses have no alignment restriction, but nonetheless have inherently evil powers. Good-aligned daemon-spawn still generally have Death Knell as a spell-like ability, and Undead Bloodline sorcerers (and to lesser extent some Bone Mystery Oracles, depending on the origin of their powers) don't generally have a choice to NOT learn Animate Dead, regardless of the alignment of the caster. Obviously the characters in question can choose not to use them, but that would still be crippling in life or death situations. In your opinion would you say it would be forgivable for a Good character to use them, assuming they use it only when they see little other option and a Good end (saving an orphanage from a dragon for example)?
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Morality question here, mostly concerning 1e but likely applicable to 2e as well: Some races and subclasses have no alignment restriction, but nonetheless have inherently evil powers. Good-aligned daemon-spawn still generally have Death Knell as a spell-like ability, and Undead Bloodline sorcerers (and to lesser extent some Bone Mystery Oracles, depending on the origin of their powers) don't generally have a choice to NOT learn Animate Dead, regardless of the alignment of the caster. Obviously the characters in question can choose not to use them, but that would still be crippling in life or death situations. In your opinion would you say it would be forgivable for a Good character to use them, assuming they use it only when they see little other option and a Good end (saving an orphanage from a dragon for example)?
Just because you have an ability for free doesn't mean you have to use it. And part of being a good person is not using an evil option even when it's available to you.
Morality question here, mostly concerning 1e but likely applicable to 2e as well: Some races and subclasses have no alignment restriction, but nonetheless have inherently evil powers. Good-aligned daemon-spawn still generally have Death Knell as a spell-like ability, and Undead Bloodline sorcerers (and to lesser extent some Bone Mystery Oracles, depending on the origin of their powers) don't generally have a choice to NOT learn Animate Dead, regardless of the alignment of the caster. Obviously the characters in question can choose not to use them, but that would still be crippling in life or death situations. In your opinion would you say it would be forgivable for a Good character to use them, assuming they use it only when they see little other option and a Good end (saving an orphanage from a dragon for example)?Just because you have an ability for free doesn't mean you have to use it. And part of being a good person is not using an evil option even when it's available to you.
Even if the opposite choice is innocent people dying?