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At Gen Con Erik Mona asked at one of the seminars (I know this thanks to the Pathfinder Chronicles podcast #5) if fans would prefer a Bestiary 3 full of new monsters or a book filled with pre gen NPCs in the same vein as the GMG but in greater diversity. I wanted to join the masses from the seminar in casting my own vote for the NPCs.
Monsters, the Bestiary is not for NPC's make a book for that. It has no place in a monster book.
I tend to think that a whole book of NPCs is a waste, as is a long line of Bestiarys. I would like the resources spent on other products.
Having said that, if B3 brought something really new to the table I could be persuaded but since I'm not planning on getting B2 at present, then it's hard to think what that will be.
Of course, monster books are very popular so I'm happy of democracy to reign supreme :-)
Cheers
Mark
I would prefer more monsters. I prefer to tailor my NPC's for the party at hand. If an NPC were made for me I would like for it to be 12+ levels, but in another thread I was told by James IIRC Golarion was low to mid level setting except for special NPC's, that means there are not enough mid to high level NPC's around to fill a book.
That might change if the Bestiary 2 can give me all the monsters I need, or at least most of them.
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I would prefer an NPC book, hopefully one with a lot of APG and other not-quite-core characters.
Two bestiaries is a lot of monsters.
This would be one step toward fulfilling my fantasy of optional non-core NPCs in APs and modules (f you would like Dave the Dread Druid to be a summoner instead, use stats from page X of the NPC book.
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I was really looking forward to a Pathfinder Bestiary each year, it's going to be difficult to convince me otherwise.
I would prefer an NPC book, hopefully one with a lot of APG and other not-quite-core characters.
Two bestiaries is a lot of monsters.
This would be one step toward fulfilling my fantasy of optional non-core NPCs in APs and modules (if you would like Dave the Dread Druid to be a summoner instead, use stats from page X of the NPC book.
This comes awfully close to convincing me otherwise.
While I like the idea of APG and other non-core material being supported in Adventure Paths and other products, an nPC book could be a perfect companion to broaden GMs options when running adventures. Swapping out key nPCs to enable closer relationships with the players at your table is something I've done in the past, and an occasional one-line after an nPC statblock as GeraintElberion suggested referring GMs to an alternate build from the nPC book would encourage GMs to be a little more creative with purchased adventures by giving them the tools to do so responsibly.
I thought the nPC section of the Game Mastery Guide was very well presented - I love the character portraits. The PDF version provides a grab-bag of printable character portraits to accompany your character sheet and inspire your character background.
Monstars are like Dakka. You nevar, evar have enuff.
NPCs, between the bestiary and the APs I never have problems finding a monster. Generic NPC statblocks on the other hand....
The Gamemastery Guide & NPC Guide are so useful, more of that please.
More monsters please.
I'm gonna vote for the NPCs.
Has anybody suggested the possibility of monstrous NPCs? Essentially a bestiary with focus on class-leveled monsters (generally intelligent and conversant).
So instead of Jane Doe, human rogue 2/expert 4
We'd get:
* Gizgut, obnoxious drumcaller, goblin bard 5/expert 2
* Caylewdnia, alluring enchantress, nymph enchanter 6
* Paul Carvot, friendly giant, stone giant fighter 2/barbarian 4
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This would be one step toward fulfilling my fantasy of optional non-core NPCs in APs and modules (if you would like Dave the Dread Druid to be a summoner instead, use stats from page X of the NPC book.
I'm a professional web developer, and a couple of important concepts in my work are graceful degradation and progressive enhancement.
Graceful degradation refers to including features that you expect won't be supported by some web browsers, but providing a suitable fall-back option. Eg, featuring a cool Flash animation on your webpage, but knowing that iPhones and iPads don't support Flash, you provide a standard graphic image that will appear in place of missing Flash content. While different visitors will receive a slightly different experience - static vs animated - your message is still communicated to both audiences despite the technical limitations of their devices.
Progressive enhancement refers to building a basic website which functions even in older web browsers (eg, IE6), and then add various layers of enhancements which will be ignored or supported by browsers depending on their capability. These might include such features as rounded corners, drop-shadows, or semi-transparent backgrounds.
So, what does this have to do with Pathfinder?
Graceful degradation - Show off the best Pathfinder has to offer from various sourcebooks, but provide a Core Rules / Bestiary I fall-back option when doing so. Eg, include Bestiary III's purple flying monkeys in the next Adventure Path, but provide a one-liner footnote that for GMs without access to Bestiary III, these may be replaced by Harpies from Bestiary I. Different creature, similar role, it won't adversely affect the players experience.
Progressive enhancement - Adventure Paths could continue much as they do now, with classed nPCs, monsters etc, from the Core Rulebook and Bestiary I as a baseline default. For GMs with other sourcebooks such as the APG, Bestiary III etc, a one-line footnote could suggest replacement nPCs, monsters etc, from those sources, and the proposed nPC book would play a crucial role in a progressive enhancement approach.
Cheers,
DarkWhite
I want a book with 40 easy-to-use NPC Warriors and Adepts (one for each level and class), so I always have NPC minions available.
I would add 20 rogues (because NPCs with sneak attack are a must-have).
And 20 sorcerers would be nice to have to, arcane spellcasters are needed.
Then, a few archers and barbarians of different levels would be good too.
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This would be one step toward fulfilling my fantasy of optional non-core NPCs in APs and modules (if you would like Dave the Dread Druid to be a summoner instead, use stats from page X of the NPC book.I'm a professional web developer, and a couple of important concepts in my work are graceful degradation and progressive enhancement.
Either approach would be okay, although I prefer the second. It's an idea that's been rattling around in my mind since the npc guide was announced.
I've posted it a couple of times on the forums but the talented folk at Paizo either haven't noticed or haven't thought it worth discussing.
One of the problems with new rules is lack of support/integration and yet one of the virtues of Pathfinder is the 'core-only' approach.
This seems like a way to balance those competing concerns but I'm sure it's not the only way, maybe Paizo have some other/better ideas.
Has anybody suggested the possibility of monstrous NPCs? Essentially a bestiary with focus on class-leveled monsters (generally intelligent and conversant).
So instead of Jane Doe, human rogue 2/expert 4
We'd get:
* Gizgut, obnoxious drumcaller, goblin bard 5/expert 2
* Caylewdnia, alluring enchantress, nymph enchanter 6
* Paul Carvot, friendly giant, stone giant fighter 2/barbarian 4
+1
I'm a shameless Bestiary addict, so I'd rather have another one of those. The NPCs in the Gamemastery Guide are very useful, but they're already pretty diverse and tweakable. More monsters = more better.
For me it is Bestiary 3 and then NPC book instead of Bestiary 4 as was suggested at the seminar.
Monsters. Still plenty of classics that need updating, and lots of new critters that have been mentioned or hinted at that need detailing.
Why can't we have both though?
A book of statted NPC's sounds like a great Companion product.
Has anybody suggested the possibility of monstrous NPCs? Essentially a bestiary with focus on class-leveled monsters (generally intelligent and conversant).
So instead of Jane Doe, human rogue 2/expert 4
We'd get:
* Gizgut, obnoxious drumcaller, goblin bard 5/expert 2
* Caylewdnia, alluring enchantress, nymph enchanter 6
* Paul Carvot, friendly giant, stone giant fighter 2/barbarian 4
This, I like. If forced to choose between monsters and NPCs, I'd probably choose monsters, as I enjoy reading the NPC builds, but find I have rarely used them.
I haven't even met the jabberwocky's stat block and there is already talk of a book 3?
Whats going to be in it to scare me now?! THE MONSTER FROM IT!!!?!?!
My childhood nightmares can't take this.
If I see one critter.. I will vorpal you all.
Mo'monstahs prease!!!
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If Paizo did want to take a break from an annual Bestiary, then I'd suggest a book full of other types of non-NPC challenges: I'm thinking a big book of templates, traps, poisons, diseases, curses, haunts, and the like. And include some challenges that would make 20th level characters shudder as well...one thing I've noticed about traps and poisons in particular is that there seems to be few of them (in Paizo-published materials, at least) that would really be much of a challenge to high level characters. True, it would mostly just be a matter of pumping up the DCs, but still...
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I'd prefer NPCs mostly because we have so many monsters, so many of which suck bum.
So, with 2E MC, 3E MM, II, FF, III, IV, V, P B & B2, we have plenty monsters. And NO NPC books.
Let's see what the B2 has and then come back to this, though.
For me, though, it's ALL about the illustrations. If I like the picture of a monster or an NPC I'll use it.
I want a monster book I can throw togther NPC quickly on herolabs It take me a couple hours to convert a monster from 3.5
*Scribble, Scribble, Scribble*
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Add me in to the camp that wants an NPC book. Tons upon tons of monter resources out, and ive used the NPC stats in the GMG quite a bit since that book came out, and finding I wish I had more resources. Although more monsters is always good too, despite the plethora of them already out there. So i guess it comes down to I dont care which book they do, as long as they do both. And I want the NPC book first, though if you put a gun to my head, ill take more monsters first too :)
I prefer an NPC book.
In the past, later monster manuals tended to scrape the bottom of the monster barrel for new entries. Monsters in later volumes tend to be hit-or-miss in terms of piquing my interest, with most of them "miss", and I've never bothered to actually buy them. I feel there is still a large pool for cool monsters for the Bestiary II, but after that, I have my doubts.
NPCs on the other hand, are the most time consuming element in designing adventures. The list in the Game Mastery Guide is great, but it really only scratches the surface. For instance, all of them are human. No dwarves, elves, gnolls, orcs, goblins, ogres, hill giants, and so on. There is very rich soil here that I'd like to see seeded. I could see whole communities of NPC races developed.
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So long as there are 3.5 monsters from Paizo sources (AP bestiaries, for example) and templates from OGL 3.5 cources (Advanced Bestiary from Green Ronin), I'll vote for another Pathfinder Bestiary to update these monsters long before I'd vote for an NPC book. And I love NPC books. But Paizo has already relased a ton of generic NPCs in the Gamemastery Guide and the NPC guide. I'm having a hard time seeing what another NPC book would bring to the table that would be better than my dream monster/template book.
That's a harsh choice. I think I'd prefer an NPC gallery to a third monster book, but only slightly. The Beastiaries are my absolute favorite products atm.
However, a younger James Jacobs got credit for a little book known as 'Villains' by Bastion Press, and that sucker was a masterpiece.
I vote for Bestiary!!!
Generic NPC are so unrealistic. Look at the Princess in GMG. So all (or most?) princesses ar two weapon fighting duelists. What happens if they become Queen (next example NPC one page further). Now they become completly differnt. Sure. Thats why I prefer non generic NPC. On low levels it´s ok. But everything above a certain exp. level should be non-generic and unique. Especially leaders like my examples above.
A book of NPC like the GMG has would be great. Monster all fine and dandy but really after a while monsters just stop being the focus of encounters as the game progresses. Sure some still form the basis of an encounter but I find regular NPC style class like the GMG presented appear much more often.
Even with the AP a lot of the encounters tend to be NPC bad guys of Player races with levels in classes just like the PCs.
I know I'd buy it!
Has anybody suggested the possibility of monstrous NPCs? Essentially a bestiary with focus on class-leveled monsters (generally intelligent and conversant).
So instead of Jane Doe, human rogue 2/expert 4
We'd get:
* Gizgut, obnoxious drumcaller, goblin bard 5/expert 2
* Caylewdnia, alluring enchantress, nymph enchanter 6
* Paul Carvot, friendly giant, stone giant fighter 2/barbarian 4
This. A thousand times this.
Monsters. I buy all monster books I see (as do a lot of other people, I think). On the other hand, I virtually never buy any books with NPC stats.
In any case, please either do a Monster book or an NPC book. Don't try to jumble them together like WotC did with Monster Manual IV.
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Has anybody suggested the possibility of monstrous NPCs? Essentially a bestiary with focus on class-leveled monsters (generally intelligent and conversant).
So instead of Jane Doe, human rogue 2/expert 4
We'd get:
* Gizgut, obnoxious drumcaller, goblin bard 5/expert 2
* Caylewdnia, alluring enchantress, nymph enchanter 6
* Paul Carvot, friendly giant, stone giant fighter 2/barbarian 4
This is what I'd like to see.
Creative Director
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A few notes:
1) Bestiary 3 is pretty much more or less going to happen. We still have a lot of monsters to cover.
2) If we do a big book of NPCs, it WON'T be called something like "Bestiary 4." It'll have its own name. A Bestiary is a monster book, not an NPC book.
3) If we do a big book of NPCs, the format will probably follow our Bestiary model—one NPC per page, with a few taking up 2 pages. And we absolutely would include monstrous NPCs.
4) The weird part is that a big NPC book SHOULD have entries for commonly used or obviously iconic NPCs like "Innkeeper" and "Pirate Captain" or "King," but most/all of those are already in the GMG. Do we reprint them? Do we make new ones? It's an interesting question.
ANYway... keep posting your thoughts and preferences! :)
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Jacobs & Paizo,
My gut says that, for "redos" of NPCs already in the GMG, only do ones when there's more fluff or some novel innovation. Reprinting (essentially) the same NPCs seems a waste -- it's not like the Magic Item or Spell Compendium.
As a customer I'd rather have an NPC Compendium wedged between the Bestiary 2 and the Bestiary 3. It gives another year to do a good job on the 3rd monster book -- cutting crappy ones, allowing time to get new good ones and develop potential goodies.
Plus, we the customers will have 2 all-Pathfinder monster books so a good NPC Compendium will be great.
Didn't the 3.5 monster books all have big drops in sales?? MM, MM2 and FF did well -- MM3, 4 & 5 -- not so good.
Since all of the NPC in the GMG are human I would think you could redo some of them as dwarves, elves, etc.
Would the NPC guide be Golarion flavored or generic?
Bestiary 3, please.
Monster books are one of the few crunch products that don't contribute meaningfully to rules-bloat. Plus, we can always use more monsters.
Not to undercut Paizo or anything, but wouldn't a massive NPC gallery be a great community project? It could be hosted on one of the tangential sites, like d20pfsrd or Nethys' page, in pdf or html form. Given that the rules for creating NPCs are much more straightforward than monsters, balance wouldn't really be an issue, and I'm sure public domain/open license artwork wouldn't be that hard to find...
Zo
This would be one step toward fulfilling my fantasy of optional non-core NPCs in APs and modules (if you would like Dave the Dread Druid to be a summoner instead, use stats from page X of the NPC book.I'm a professional web developer, and a couple of important concepts in my work are graceful degradation and progressive enhancement.
Graceful degradation refers to including features that you expect won't be supported by some web browsers, but providing a suitable fall-back option. Eg, featuring a cool Flash animation on your webpage, but knowing that iPhones and iPads don't support Flash, you provide a standard graphic image that will appear in place of missing Flash content. While different visitors will receive a slightly different experience - static vs animated - your message is still communicated to both audiences despite the technical limitations of their devices.
Progressive enhancement refers to building a basic website which functions even in older web browsers (eg, IE6), and then add various layers of enhancements which will be ignored or supported by browsers depending on their capability. These might include such features as rounded corners, drop-shadows, or semi-transparent backgrounds.
So, what does this have to do with Pathfinder?
Graceful degradation - Show off the best Pathfinder has to offer from various sourcebooks, but provide a Core Rules / Bestiary I fall-back option when doing so. Eg, include Bestiary III's purple flying monkeys in the next Adventure Path, but provide a one-liner footnote that for GMs without access to Bestiary III, these may be replaced by Harpies from Bestiary I. Different creature, similar role, it won't adversely affect the players experience.
Progressive enhancement - Adventure Paths could continue much as they do now, with classed nPCs, monsters etc, from the Core Rulebook and Bestiary I as a baseline default. For GMs with other sourcebooks such as the APG, Bestiary III...
+1
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I don't think we need more monsters. Monsters are awesome, and I love monsters in games, but they're not everything. We have enough, and thanks to templates, we can easily extrapolate from the ones we have.
A book of NPC's would be a welcome departure, as would a book of traps, maps, poisons, lairs, mazes, riddles, puzzles, and locking devices.
+1 for the monstrous NPC's, or a Monster Manual 3 with lot's of templates to add.
Also I wonder why monsters are always mixed, there are monster manual X, but never "all the monsters you could encounter in an urban setting", or "all the monsters with a CR between 1 and 5". This would greatly help that you only need a few books at the table, instead of having all the monster manuals.
One way or the other, lots of inspiring artwork would be great.
edit: "all the monsters you could summon or have as familiar" would also be great
4) The weird part is that a big NPC book SHOULD have entries for commonly used or obviously iconic NPCs like "Innkeeper" and "Pirate Captain" or "King," but most/all of those are already in the GMG. Do we reprint them? Do we make new ones? It's an interesting question.
Make new ones. If a person only has one book they have enough "required" NPCs to be used in a pinch for most situations. If they have both books they can have alternates so that not every "Innkeeper" has the same set of stats. This becomes even more important when it comes to roles that should have a bit of diversity like "Pirate Captain".
I second (or third or whatever) the request for a few more non-human NPCs, not that it isn't hard to add a few racial abilities to the ones in the book if needed.
I also want more high level NPCs! Those are a lot harder to fudge at the table than a 3rd level fighter.
A few notes:
1) Bestiary 3 is pretty much more or less going to happen. We still have a lot of monsters to cover.
2) If we do a big book of NPCs, it WON'T be called something like "Bestiary 4." It'll have its own name. A Bestiary is a monster book, not an NPC book.
3) If we do a big book of NPCs, the format will probably follow our Bestiary model—one NPC per page, with a few taking up 2 pages. And we absolutely would include monstrous NPCs.
[b]4) The weird part is that a big NPC book SHOULD have entries for commonly used or obviously iconic NPCs like "Innkeeper" and "Pirate Captain" or "King," but most/all of those are already in the GMG. Do we reprint them? Do we make new ones? It's an interesting question.[b]
ANYway... keep posting your thoughts and preferences! :)
Normally, I don't like reprinting old stuff, but on the other hand, in this case, I'd like it all in one book. Also, it wouldn't technically have to be reprinted. The soldier in the GMG could easily be statistically different from one in a Bestiary styled NPC book. Likewise for a king, knight, barkeep, pirate…