I have to say, I want BOTH. LOL
That being said, I think the Big Book O NPC's should fully integrate some key monster NPC's along with some of the options from the APG and maybe even the magic and combat books scheduled for future publication. So with that in mind I think Bestiary first then NPC.
Creative Director
|
I think the Big Book O NPC's should fully integrate some key monster NPC's along with some of the options from the APG and maybe even the magic and combat books scheduled for future publication. So with that in mind I think Bestiary first then NPC.
Would you still be okay with this if the big NPC book didn't reprint rules for how witch hexes work, how the Dirty Trick combat maneuver works, what a mancatcher does, or how hungry pit works, and in order to know that stuff you'd either have to own a copy of the APG or be able to look it up online at a PRD type site?
|
I think the Big Book O NPC's should fully integrate some key monster NPC's along with some of the options from the APG and maybe even the magic and combat books scheduled for future publication. So with that in mind I think Bestiary first then NPC.Would you still be okay with this if the big NPC book didn't reprint rules for how witch hexes work, how the Dirty Trick combat maneuver works, what a mancatcher does, or how hungry pit works, and in order to know that stuff you'd either have to own a copy of the APG or be able to look it up online at a PRD type site?
I would be fine with it, or at least have a small footnote at the bottom of the NPC to reference the page numbers for easy lookup.
Didn't the 3.5 monster books all have big drops in sales?? MM, MM2 and FF did well -- MM3, 4 & 5 -- not so good.
At least for MM4, part of the problem was that it spent 1/4 of the book on classed versions of monsters from MM1, and another 1/4 of the book on the Spawn of Tiamat.
So, if you didn't want classed versions of basic monsters and didn't like the concept of the Spawn of Tiamat, you only had half a book of monsters left.
Would you still be okay with this if the big NPC book didn't reprint rules for how witch hexes work, how the Dirty Trick combat maneuver works, what a mancatcher does, or how hungry pit works, and in order to know that stuff you'd either have to own a copy of the APG or be able to look it up online at a PRD type site?
Well, asking ME that question may be a bit unfair as I have one or two subs listed after my name... ;)
That being said. Yes. I would MUCH rather have a selection of NPC's that use features in the core RPG books. I feel that is fair, especially if they can go to HEREand look up the rules. I think referencing something in an AP from four years ago would be too much to assume.
Just add a little disclaimer at the start of the book with the web site listed... and maybe an Icon guide like in the bestiary books but with APG, CRB, GMG, B1, B2, etc icons for referenced hard backs.
If an NPC book is done, I would like to see the generic NPCs with options added. Kind of like archethype listings for them. So you could have your "Pirate Captain" basic and then your archetypes to modify like your "Squid-headed Pirate Captain" or your "Trying-to-be-sexy female Pirate Captain from a really bad movie". There could be thematical differences like Theives Guild Masters to reflect Bandit Lords and Mafia Dons or Spyring Masters and Merchant Guild Leaders. I personally love a good Bestiary, but when an NPC is needed on the fly, variety and quick modifcations are always great to have. I also love to adventure hooks included, either as specfic entries or suggested prose within descriptions.
For me I do like more monsters and pre-printed NPCs, so either will do.
But I really like to create most of my NPCs (enemies too) from scratch (stats, equipment etc)(this is really fun and throws your players off if they read every book), sometimes I even using my custom templates.
I have created base monster races and templates that I mostly get spot on for CR, LA, and racial class (savage spieces). I even have made a line of racial heritor feats (think Abyssal heritor feats) of most of templates I have made (currently working on Nymph(MM based) and Oread(FF) lines). The designs of some of my templates allow a degree of customization, ie half-frost folk (frost folk->Frostburn), where the player gets to pick one ability out of 4 options, the templates with built in heritor lines allows the character (npc of pc) to increase their racial power at their own pace with more heritor feats. I would love to see a Bestiary with templates that are customisable, but also an NPC gallery with a few complete town samples,
ie Nor-ham (hamlet), pop 24
Family 1 (bar'n'inn): 1 bartender (Name/level/race),
1 barmaid(Name/level/race)
Family 2 (smith'n'tan): 1 metalsmith(Name/level/race),
1 tanner(Name/level/race)
Family N (): .............
Singles: Priestess 1 (Name/level/race), Merchant (Name/level/race), etc..
noted NPC's: Richard Bee (Barkeep), Mia Bee (Barmaid), Ghim Skieth(Smith), ....
Shop Names: Dragon's Hoard (bar'n'inn), The Works (smith and tanner) .. etc
and a map (note I do all this every time I make a town that the PC are going to stay in for more than 5 sessions)
|
Didn't the 3.5 monster books all have big drops in sales?? MM, MM2 and FF did well -- MM3, 4 & 5 -- not so good.At least for MM4, part of the problem was that it spent 1/4 of the book on classed versions of monsters from MM1, and another 1/4 of the book on the Spawn of Tiamat.
So, if you didn't want classed versions of basic monsters and didn't like the concept of the Spawn of Tiamat, you only had half a book of monsters left.
Actually you had 1/3 left, because somebody had that brilliant idea of including fully mapped monster lairs in the book. Ugh.
Also I wonder why monsters are always mixed, there are monster manual X, but never "all the monsters you could encounter in an urban setting", or "all the monsters with a CR between 1 and 5". This would greatly help that you only need a few books at the table, instead of having all the monster manuals.
Back in 3.5 days, I actually went through Monster Manuals 1-5 and listed them all in a database so I could sort them by CR and environment. My husband mocked me for spending so much time and effort, but I mocked him back when I could just open a document and see every monster that lives in temperate marshlands listed by CR when I rolled a random encounter. (Still needed all the books, but I had them listed by title and page number so they were quick to find instead of having to flip through.)
|
I think the Big Book O NPC's should fully integrate some key monster NPC's along with some of the options from the APG and maybe even the magic and combat books scheduled for future publication. So with that in mind I think Bestiary first then NPC.Would you still be okay with this if the big NPC book didn't reprint rules for how witch hexes work, how the Dirty Trick combat maneuver works, what a mancatcher does, or how hungry pit works, and in order to know that stuff you'd either have to own a copy of the APG or be able to look it up online at a PRD type site?
I think this is the one book for which I would be happy to see Paizo break the 'core-only' rule.
Because then you could use it to instigate my cunning plan.
Okay, here are some thoughts. I'd buy an NPC book if it was flexible enough.
What I mean is this. You take a page, you stat out a... human rogue 15. Then at the bottom you have a strip that is present for EVERY such entry in the book. That strip says "+1 level do <blah>", "-1 level do <blah>", "as a halfling do <blah>" and "as an elf do <blah>". Each entry should have a +1/-1 (or perhaps +2/-2 would be better instead), and perhaps two "fitting" racial transforms.
The resultant stats don't need to be perfect. Much like simple advanced templates, these should just be quick & dirty so a DM can grab a page, find an NPC that is close, scan down to the transforms, and just use what's there.
Basically what I'm saying is that 250 or so NPCs isn't really tempting enough. Even if they only go up to level 10, that's 25 NPCs per level. So maybe two per base class, with no APG* love, again assuming stopping at 10th. If there were a couple racial transforms and level transforms chewing up maybe an inch at the bottom of the page, that could quadruple the effective output. THAT would be worth buying.
*Yes, include APG classes and options. Support your products please. Don't reprint the rules. Assume we've bought stuff. If you use a Core class and just grab a feat or rogue talent or something, if you've got room to spare in the transforms block you could say "Core only: substitute in FeatX, and talent Y". But let's see some APG NPCs, thanks.
|
|
I would like to see more monster action personally, and I'll go a step further.
Not sure if this would be in the back, or be half of a Bestiary 3 (or another Monster book) but I would love to see some detail on creating:
- Our own templates.
How do template abilities break down in a value score system? What is the value of a +2 modifier in the makeup of a template; can I trade it for some amount of DR? HPs? That or other abilities from a list of ranked/scored abilities and powers?
-as above, just for raw creature builds.
- Detailed rules on CR alternate or exceptional creatures.
Instead of 4/5 PCs vs Encounter at CR = -20% resources, maybe something where I can change the curve and make a CR appropriate creature (say Dragon) that looks more like 4/5 PCs vs Encounter at CR = %50/%50 survival rate.*
It would actually be easier to tweak from that starting point as an end module encounter/BBEG than using the standard CR = subpar party's capabilities system.
-I want to design a solo monster encounter - so its a few CR Higher than the party, but I don't need such a high attack which results from advancing HD or adding class levels. Can I trade that for more HP, monster abilities, modular class abilities, etc?
-Monster/npc classes. Instead of standard advancement maybe a 1 for 1 CR improvement in classes DESIGNED for specific creature roles. More focused and more effective in use for the DM in an encounter than tacking on standard player class levels.
* Probably in the minority on this one, but I feel that as encounters are scaled up in CR they produce effects I may not want. I don't need super-strength = + to hit/damage for my monster, I may want other things like sustainability, or focus on other features of the creature - maybe access to more feats for CR without assigning class levels or raw HD to get them.
In other words, something that lets me look under the hood. The Advanced Bestiary was great for creating some interesting creatures using Green Ronin's templates - why not give us a tool as DMs to dissect/breakdown and then rebuild both templates and creatures?
Oh yeah - a larger supplement or appendix on non-magical/minor treasures. A few books from Paizo have sections which address this, Necromancer games has a book dedicated to detailed loot - I would like to see an expansion to the "Building a treasure Hoard" section in the core book. Let mundane treasure get the AGG treatment - similar to what was done with potions and spells - random tables, unique items, thematic mundane treasure (pirate ship, crypt/tomb), etc.
The reason on the last part, monsters = treasure.
That plus the 1st ed MM.
I like the NPC book idea myself
Would you still be okay with this if the big NPC book didn't reprint rules for how witch hexes work, how the Dirty Trick combat maneuver works, what a mancatcher does, or how hungry pit works, and in order to know that stuff you'd either have to own a copy of the APG or be able to look it up online at a PRD type site?
Personally I would be perfectly fine with it, as long as most of the book didn't focus on these types, but "some" would not be a problem at all.
I think it is good to see all the different options and such. Like say an NPC representing a phalanx fighter in a cohort, I'd much rather it used the fighter options for the same. Or if it is an Oracle at Delphi type character I would certainly expect them to be of an appropriate class rather then variant cleric number two thousand and seventeen.
On the other hand I would be against a lot of new domains, skills, feat etc. was presented in such a book.
Another thing I absolutely would love for the book was some of the classic villain NPCs statted fully out with equipment etc. Be it the dreaded Necromancer King, the vile aboleth mastermind or even the cultists of a doomsday cult.
I wouldn't buy either; I'm reaching my rulebook saturation point, at least for the moment. I'm probably in the minority, though.
4) The weird part is that a big NPC book SHOULD have entries for commonly used or obviously iconic NPCs like "Innkeeper" and "Pirate Captain" or "King," but most/all of those are already in the GMG. Do we reprint them? Do we make new ones? It's an interesting question.
Honestly, I think an NPC book should be more like Villains from Bastion Press, or Denizens of Freeport from Green Ronin. All of those characters were interesting, usable and with a good story behind them. Plus varying hooks for how to integrate them with the PCs. The GMG NPCs are great, but more for quick use and combat stats than as recurring or interesting characters. So that seems it would be 'no' to reprinting or making new ones.
On the flip side, I'd also really like to have a combined resource with your NPC Guide and GMG stats together. Does this make me a hypocrite? Indecisive?
|
Creative Director
|
Honestly, I think an NPC book should be more like Villains from Bastion Press, or Denizens of Freeport from Green Ronin. All of those characters were interesting, usable and with a good story behind them. Plus varying hooks for how to integrate them with the PCs. The GMG NPCs are great, but more for quick use and combat stats than as recurring or interesting characters. So that seems it would be 'no' to reprinting or making new ones.
Woo hoo! Someone who remembers Villains! BONUS POINT TO KAIN DARKWIND!
I wouldn't buy either; I'm reaching my rulebook saturation point, at least for the moment. I'm probably in the minority, though.
well, we are talking about something that would come out in Fall 2012
I'd have to be sold on a NPC hardback. I'd probably suspend my subscription to skip it.
I don't think a Bestiary every single year is useful either. After Bestiary 3, the options are probably going to be pretty thin.
How about a hardback of Revisited / Ecology-like expansions on existing monsters?
|
Normally, I don't like reprinting old stuff, but on the other hand, in this case, I'd like it all in one book.
I think the Game Mastery Guide suffered in some spots the same problem afflicting a few other recent releases - too many good ideas, too much content, stuff gets cut down to meet a page-count.
NPC profiles were a whole section I thought the moment I saw it - hey, this looks great, but why stop here? These could easily fill a hard-cover product this size with NPC profiles alone! Apparently Paizo thinks so too, hence this thread.
Meanwhile, rules like Haunts only had one sample haunt, where I thought the GMG would have been the one-stop-shop to collate all haunts. As a result, the GMG probably isn't the book I'd reach for when looking for a haunt, despite containing haunt rules.
The Adventurer's Armoury also suffered from this problem. Too much content resulted in too much editing, leading to errors and teasing customers with things they wanted much more detail on, but descriptions got cut.
I'm not opposed to cutting content to provide focus to a product, it's better than the alternative of fluffing a product up to meet page-count, but if you're going to cover a topic, cover it well, or bump it to another future product were you can give it the treatment it deserves.
Though sometimes new concepts need a short "test if our customers like this idea" run, and then schedule a future product for a more complete coverage if the idea takes off.
I guess what I'm saying is, NPC profiles great idea, GMG seemed the right place to put them, but probably deserved their own hardback in the first place.
Cheers,
DarkWhite
Back in 3.5 days, I actually went through Monster Manuals 1-5 and listed them all in a database so I could sort them by CR and environment. My husband mocked me for spending so much time and effort, but I mocked him back when I could just open a document and see every monster that lives in temperate marshlands listed by CR when I rolled a random encounter. (Still needed all the books, but I had them listed by title and page number so they were quick to find instead of having to flip through.)
My undying respect, madam.
As a side note, once the number of bestiaries fluctuates, this could be a good thing to do for a fan made database.
To do TOGETHER, not Joana only ;)
All of those characters were interesting, usable and with a good story behind them. Plus varying hooks for how to integrate them with the PCs. The GMG NPCs are great, but more for quick use and combat stats than as recurring or interesting characters.
This is why I was wondering if the NPC book would be generic or Golarion themed. The GMG has a lot of generic stat blocks in it. I don't think I really need anymore. However, if this were a Golarion themed book, with in depth backgrounds, motivations and such, I could definitely use it. Or just read it for fun and inspiration.
Edit: Yay Lazarus. Boo Post monster.
Actually you had 1/3 left, because somebody had that brilliant idea of including fully mapped monster lairs in the book. Ugh.
Didn't the 3.5 monster books all have big drops in sales?? MM, MM2 and FF did well -- MM3, 4 & 5 -- not so good.At least for MM4, part of the problem was that it spent 1/4 of the book on classed versions of monsters from MM1, and another 1/4 of the book on the Spawn of Tiamat.
So, if you didn't want classed versions of basic monsters and didn't like the concept of the Spawn of Tiamat, you only had half a book of monsters left.
MM 4...the first monster book for D&D that I did not buy. :(
I skipped MM 5 for the same reason.
Would you still be okay with this if the big NPC book didn't reprint rules for how witch hexes work, how the Dirty Trick combat maneuver works, what a mancatcher does, or how hungry pit works, and in order to know that stuff you'd either have to own a copy of the APG or be able to look it up online at a PRD type site?
As someone who has expressed concerns about non-core stuff popping up in Pathfinder, I'd have to say I'm fine with this as long as it is made clear. I think this is different than the bread-n-butter product (Pathfinder Adventure Path), or organized play, which should be kept as close to core-only required to keep the barrier to entry low. It is *very* nice when bringing new people into society play to be able to point at the corebook and say "this is all you need."
My gut says that, for "redos" of NPCs already in the GMG, only do ones when there's more fluff or some novel innovation. Reprinting (essentially) the same NPCs seems a waste -- it's not like the Magic Item or Spell Compendium.
As a customer I'd rather have an NPC Compendium wedged between the Bestiary 2 and the Bestiary 3. It gives another year to do a good job on the 3rd monster book -- cutting crappy ones, allowing time to get new good ones and develop potential goodies.
Plus, we the customers will have 2 all-Pathfinder monster books so a good NPC Compendium will be great.
Fully agree with the above, thanks W E! I'm already concerned two World Guides and two "Ultimate" books within 6 months of each other will be way too much to preserve quality. A third Bestiary right afterward...
And *please*, no book of Monster NPCs. Certainly, where appropriate, but not a full book of them, or even close to half a Bestiary. Almost want to throw out my MMIV because of those.
I would prefer a 3rd monster book a NPC book would be nice but I would not want it to be a 30-40 $ hardcover, smaller and cheaper would be my choice.
I suspect another NPC book would be more the size of the NPC Guide, a 64 page softcover.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
I liked the NPC section in the GMG. However, I'm not as sure if I'd want another NPC book. I think the only thing that would draw me to a product like this would be if it did liberally use new rules content from the APG, UM and UC books. As for including full text for those abilties, I'd say no. Use superscript codes to indicate where they're from, and for people with those books, great, otherwise, they can sub other abilities, feats, spells, etc. Yes, this might make the NPC book not as useful to people who don't own the full RPG line, but I just don't think I have a need for a book with just core rulebook NPCs. There's lots out there already, and veteran players and GMs have lots of experience making core NPCs. Seeing neat NPCs useing the breadth of options out there would be something new and different.
Also, I'd hope that the mid/high level NPCs have a good before combat and tactics section that shows how they use their abilities to good effect, more like NPCs in modules and APs.
As for comparing an NPC book instead of a 4th bestiary, it would depend on what's in the B2 and B3. I'm going to guess that after 3, something different would be good to prevent annual bestiary burnout.
I think the Big Book O NPC's should fully integrate some key monster NPC's along with some of the options from the APG and maybe even the magic and combat books scheduled for future publication. So with that in mind I think Bestiary first then NPC.Would you still be okay with this if the big NPC book didn't reprint rules for how witch hexes work, how the Dirty Trick combat maneuver works, what a mancatcher does, or how hungry pit works, and in order to know that stuff you'd either have to own a copy of the APG or be able to look it up online at a PRD type site?
I'd like the book to be APG inclusive. No need to reprint but make it known that APG is required. Who doesn't have the APG after all. If you don't a PRD style look up could suffice. But with the PDF for $10 that's easy enough to get if you need it too.
I would want an NPC guide on the condition that they avoid developing those characters in other Pathfinder products.
Would this be a Golarion specific NPC book? Or as a hardcover is it supposed to be more generally directed?
My vote is for the NPCs book, I'd love to see a orc king.
|
|
I would want an NPC guide on the condition that they avoid developing those characters in other Pathfinder products.
Would this be a Golarion specific NPC book? Or as a hardcover is it supposed to be more generally directed?
They've stated that the PathfinderRPG line will be generic, so i'm guessing generic.
Bestiary preferred here.
I have given this a lot of thought, like more then I should have, destructed me during important meeting and every thing. At first I was all like, total more monsters. But then I realized I have many monsters as it is and while I do want more monsters at some point, I am going with NPCs on this on.
I would like it if the books had NPCs from a bunch of different sources and as long as the information is available to every one some how, like on Pathfinder OLG I would not mind the book reprinting all the rules, in fact I would prefer that they were not there. But i don't have any APs so I would hope that stuff from there would be explained or just left out.
I do hope that there is a Bestiary 3 and so on, but right now more NPCs would push my game forward a little more then more monsters.
I would love to see some monster as npcs, I would totally shop at the goblin ran junk shop or bet at the Lillend dog track. just my 2 cents, and your right the meeting was short and not that important.
I'd guess Bestiary 3, then NPC book before any further monster books.
I'd prefer Bestiary over more NPCs.
A book on monsters as PCs though would be worth giving up
a Bestiary for.
They've stated that the PathfinderRPG line will be generic, so i'm guessing generic.I would want an NPC guide on the condition that they avoid developing those characters in other Pathfinder products.
Would this be a Golarion specific NPC book? Or as a hardcover is it supposed to be more generally directed?
That would be my assumption as well
My opinion is...um...both? Seriously. I'd love both. >_<
I would love to see a book of NPCs. Here are some things I'd like to see in it.
Short stat-blocks of NPCs of all classes (including APG classes and the NPC classes) from levels 1 to about 6. No info on race included in the stat-blocks, but have simple templates to add those details (which should include goblins, orcs, etc.). These would be used if you want the stats for some random NPC (e.g., the PCs attack someone and the DM hadn't anticipated needing the stats). Only low level NPCs here, because higher level NPCs should not be quite so generic.
NPCs with a whole page devoted to them. These would be fleshed out more, perhaps have interesting options like multiclassing, and have a short description.
I'd also like to see the iconics represented in such a book. A full page for each, or perhaps even two, to provide room for stats at several levels.
NPCs with a whole page devoted to them. These would be fleshed out more, perhaps have interesting options like multiclassing, and have a short description.
You can find this in the existing NPC Guide :)
|
|
I like to make my own NPCs so I'd most probably never buy an NPC book. A monster book, on the other hand, gives me more things to make NPCs out of so I'll usually buy every monster book that gets released.
What I'd really like to see before an NPC book (and I think somebody else mentioned something similar) is a book of hazards. The Core book does a fine job of pointing out common traps and environmental effects, but a book of new traps, diseases, poisons, curses or cursed items and environmental hazards similar to green slime and rot grubs could be kind of fun and useful. Adding a section for environment-based templates for monsters would fit nicely into such a collection. Aside from stuff like arctic and jungle-based monsters you could have templates for weird effects like specific curses and diseases or mutations caused by living in an active volcano or on the moon.
What I'd really like to see before an NPC book (and I think somebody else mentioned something similar) is a book of hazards. The Core book does a fine job of pointing out common traps and environmental effects, but a book of new traps, diseases, poisons, curses or cursed items and environmental hazards similar to green slime and rot grubs could be kind of fun and useful. Adding a section for environment-based templates for monsters would fit nicely into such a collection. Aside from stuff like arctic and jungle-based monsters you could have templates for weird effects like specific curses and diseases or mutations caused by living in an active volcano or on the moon.
I think you just described the Advanced GameMastery Guide. Add in some haunts, some toolboxy stuff, plus an NPC section about the size of what's in the GMG.
Yes. I would love this.
NPCs with a whole page devoted to them. These would be fleshed out more, perhaps have interesting options like multiclassing, and have a short description.
You can find this in the existing NPC Guide :)
I hadn't looked at that yet. I just assumed it was specific NPCs for Golarion. Having just check out the description, it's likely that I'll pick this up. Thanks. :)
|
Really, between the GMG, the NPC Guide, and the upcoming Rival Guide, I don't really see much more need for an NPC book. Maybe NPC Guide II could be largely devoted to the APG classes + the Magus, but beyond that I'm just not seeing a need. Maybe it's the fact that with HeroLab I can knock out a decent NPC in an hour or so, or the fact that I'm an absolute sucker for monster compilations, but to me a monster book is a million times more appealing.