I'll state the following up front. Game play in the high teens, let alone the levels bolted on by Epic rules, do not appeal to me. I can appreciate the power curve of the 1-20 scale, the nod to backwards compatability, etc. IMO, once your adventures have to include plane-hopping & CR20+ outsiders just to provide "level-appropriate challenges" you've already hit the "epic" level of play.
In much of the speculation of future PF RPG products, I've seen repeated references to 2011 = Asian-themed stuff; 2012 = epic rules; 2013 = psionics/Vudra (maybe). At first, I just shrugged it off - maybe I'd get it, maybe I wouldn't.
However, I've arrived at another concern separate from my personal gaming biases.
If an entire year of RPG products are geared toward Epic Rules & epic-rule tie-ins, is that a risk for Paizo's business plan?
Reasons for asking:
1. It's stated that Paizo adventure-related research shows that the most popular adventures span the levels 1-15, hence the increase in the # of APs that top out at those levels rather than run the full 20 levels.
2. Epic-level rules is a step beyond even those levels. If the mid-high teens are a significantly smaller # of gamers than levels 1-15, would it stand to reason the # that are interested in playing at epic levels would at most be comparable to the number that play at levels 16-20.
3. Presumably, if there is an epic-level rule supplement, there would be an AP tie-in or additional PF adventures using epic-level rules. This would result in a sizeable portion of the Paizo product line for 1/2 or most of a year be tied up with a theme that could be of little interest to most of its customers.
Obviously, this is just speculation. (Hopefully unfounded.) Paizo's got a proven track record and haven't let me down yet.
Just curious as to what others think.
3. Presumably, if there is an epic-level rule supplement, there would be an AP tie-in or additional PF adventures using epic-level rules. This would result in a sizeable portion of the Paizo product line for 1/2 or most of a year be tied up with a theme that could be of little interest to most of its customers.
I doubt there would be an epic-level AP. James Jacobs has been pretty emphatic about not tampering with their flagship line when asked about things like starting an AP at a level higher than first, etc. I would expect any epic-level adventures to be found among the modules.
One possibility that has been mentioned is a "sequel" to one or more of the APs, as well as a Test of the Starstone module. Either of those would be less "risky" in terms of sales, as they have a built-in appeal to previous players and/or those familiar with Golarion lore.
If they do produce Epic rules, I hope they would actually be something simpler than even the late-teen levels, i.e., instead of advancing from level 21 to 30 (for example), starting over at Epic level 1, just to cut down on the stat block math. Note that I have no idea how they would achieve this; I'm just hoping they're much more clever than I am. :)
If an entire year of RPG products are geared toward Epic Rules & epic-rule tie-ins, is that a risk for Paizo's business plan?
That probably would be a substantial risk, yes. However, I very much doubt that Paizo would tie epic rules into an entire AP.
What I would envision is an Epic Rules hardcover book, 1-3 Modules that are suitable for epic-level characters (perhaps even something like a three-part campaign arc), and maybe a Campaign Setting product to tie the epic rules into Golarion (something that would include epic-level NPCs, additional epic monsters specific to Golarion, or similar).
I'll state the following up front. Game play in the high teens, let alone the levels bolted on by Epic rules, do not appeal to me.
Just curious as to what others think.
And that is you. I always run my games into the upper 20s and past. I understand that it can be hard to make the game hard at high levels but Epic Pcs should be able to take on a literal army of mid level orc fighters and swat them like they were little girls. The RP of Epic play is what makes it fun. You can insult that Balor or rob the God of Magic of his book of all spells. You can create your own plane of existance and set yourself up as GOD of that plane. These are the things that I love to have my PCs do and it can only be doe at high level. Yes we are giong to take on the Lords of HelL, Yes all of them. Just because you may not like high level play does not mean others do not want the source for it. I can recall in the hayday of 3.5 people were clamoring for Epic rule that were good. Now I hear that high level play is not the game and that all games should really end at 12-15th. The first game I ever ran had the same PCs in it for nine years and they got to level 37. I had to create alot of source on my own to allow for that type of play because there were no epic rules on the market and the players did not want to retire their PCs. It was one of the best games I have ever ran or played as well. As far as not wanting epic why have 9th level spells the game should end at 15 righ no one will ever use 9th level spells so why bother to create them at all. Sorry if this sounds like i am mad often the internet makes you sound like a jerk when you are not. I just wanted to put in my 2cp on the false idea that the game is best at 12-15. Poeple who say that have never played the Epic under a gm that can handle the pressure.
epic rules are not for every one for sure, but I have had a couple of campaigns make it past 20, one made it past 30, it gets harder rules wise and encounters become easy or impossible, but after spending at least at year playing the some Characters it is whorth the work, some of the best games I have played were epic.
as far as Paizo doing a a whole lot of epic books and AP, it might be a risk, but every thing I have got from Paizo so far, is the best of what ever book it is (best core book, best Gamemaster guide, best race book). I would love to see what they do with epic levels and hope they do something, even if it is just one source book that give ideas for taking your game past 20, Epic templates, feats more high level spells. Paizo could make the epic stuff not just for past 20 play but for 15+ play because 15+ is epic,
I would be sad if Paizo never dose an epic source book but I would still buy pretty much every thing else
Stop the madness! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
And that is you. I always run my games into the upper 20s and past. I understand that it can be hard to make the game hard at high levels but Epic Pcs should be able to take on a literal army of mid level orc fighters and swat them like they were little girls. The RP of Epic play is what makes it fun. You can insult that Balor or rob the God of Magic of his book of all spells. You can create your own plane of existance and set yourself up as GOD of that plane. These are the things that I love to have my PCs do and it can only be doe at high level. Yes we are giong to take on the Lords of HelL, Yes all of them. Just because you may not like high level play does not mean others do not want the source for it. I can recall in the hayday of 3.5 people were clamoring for Epic rule that were good. Now I hear that high level play is not the game and that all games should really end at 12-15th. The first game I ever ran had the same PCs in it for nine years and they got to level 37. I had to create alot of source on my own to allow for that type of play because there were no epic rules on the market and the players did not want to retire their PCs. It was one of the best games I have ever ran or played as well. As far as not wanting epic why have 9th level spells the game should end at 15 righ no one will ever use 9th level spells so why bother to create them at all. Sorry if this sounds like i am mad often the internet makes you sound like a jerk when you are not. I just wanted to put in my 2cp on the false idea that the game is best at 12-15. Poeple who say that have never played the Epic under a gm that can handle the pressure.I'll state the following up front. Game play in the high teens, let alone the levels bolted on by Epic rules, do not appeal to me.
Just curious as to what others think.
"Best" has nothing to do with it. When a successful publisher (like Paizo) says that they have sales data to support that modules in the 1-15 range sell better, I have little reason to question their assessment regardless of my personal preferences.
I ID'd my personal bias up front but my reasons for stating concern were not based in those biases - they were based on comments from the Paizo team and more popular speculation on these forums. I also recognize that Epic-level play has it's fans, hence the "blashpemy" reference in the title.
However, nothing in your post addresses the questions of my post. Are there enough Epic-level fans to warrant valuable Paizo RPG development time, resources, & costs? I tend to think not, but that's me.
I have a setting & game that I like from a publisher that continues to earn an ever-growing share of my gaming dollar -- and I like it. I don't know how Paizo plans to address epic-level play. Perhaps it's much more limited than I speculated. If it's not, however, I view that as a risk to their continued success and, selfishly, to my future gaming purchases.
Is there enough support for a year's worth of epic rules and product? Probably not, however, why not develop a smaller book with necessary rules with the understanding there would be little to no adventure path support....? I thought the devs said something like this would be way in the future if at all anyway...
This is what I want;just good guide lines for Epic play. I am from the oldschool of gamming and do not mind (Even like) to make up rules to facilitate play but many of the newer players do not like it least it come from the publisher. It is the whole balance idea that erks me to no end That is why I would like to see Piazo make an Epic book. It is a testment to their being the best at what they do that I think they could be up to the task. As for Bporter's statement of the best selling is 1-15; well that is BECAUSE there are no good Epic rules to play by not because that is the area people want to play. Every gamer I have encountered would love an Epic game it is just that no one is willing to run at those levels and the source does not support it. And lets not take Wizards stab at Epic as a guide to what Epic play can be because that was a broken piece of trash out of the box.
Yar!
First off...
The truth about epic rules
Awesome man, simply awesome.
Second, James Jacobs is a fan of epic, and has stated in a few threads on this topic before that he'd "love to get to them eventually... Epic rules are still quite a ways in the future... but we have, at the very least, a year's worth of other things we need to do first." (this quote is less than a month old), and he's said similar things in other older threads as well. Basically, he wants to (eventually) get to epic level pathfinder, but at the moment, it is not their priority.
~P
I cannot claim to discern the creative acumen that drives Paizo, but as an immortal myself, I daresay I can endeavor to divine a glimmer of their vast intellect and, predicated upon said glimmer, prognosticate a likely eventuality:
If and when Paizo decides to go epic, they will not drop everything to do so. They have already stated that they know the Epic game is a niche game, and only a small portion of their customer base is likely to kick in the cash to justify their time and effort to produce the source material.
That said, sure, they will very likely, one day, put out some epic stuff. While they're doing that, they'll still be putting out plenty of non-epic stuff to keep the profits rolling.
Sure, I can understand the OP's concern. Having no interest in the material, he despairs of a void, a bleak and interminable span of time during which Paizo releases nothing that holds any interest for him. Months will seem to stretch into aeons as the black hole of Epic source material engulfs all of Paizo creative output, leaving him stranded in a vast, desperate Sargasso of old concepts and burned-out content, despairing of ever seeing a shred of new material escaping the Epic Schwartzschild radius and falling into his grasping hands.
Well, friend OP, despair not.
Paizo is, if nothing else, an entity unto itself, with a lifeblood profit and a pulse that beats with every sale. And, as with all organisms, it desires to survive, to thrive, to flourish. Ergo, it will not allow itself to wither and die by cutting off its own source of lifeblood, by estranging the teeming millions of dedicated, and more importantly non-destitute, gamers who wish for nothing more than to continue purchasing content geared toward the "sweet-spot" of adventure profitability.
Your fears are in vain, for that which you dread shall not come to pass. And when I "your fears" I am talking to anyone and everyone who feels obligated to post on these forums to try to steer Paizo away from Epic content.
That said, please, oh pretty please with a big old low-level cherry on top, stop trying to dissuade Paizo from releasing Epic source material.
Some of us want it.
And you will lose nothing, nothing at all.
But those of us who want epic material will lose everything if you talk Paizo out of Epic material.
Since you have nothing to lose and nothing to gain, why not just let sleeping epic dogs lie, and let those of us who do have an interest in such material rest easily, comforted by the knowledge that our patience will one day pay off?
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Yes, we will lose on epic stuff.
Paizo's creative juices will be spent on stuff most of us will never use.
Instead of developing APs and rules, Paizo staff will have to address a bazillion rules questions regarding epic stuff. Jason will be swamped with questions, issues, FAQ/errata requests. Instead of solving the problems of normal-level play, he will have to handle problems related to epic levels.
Even worse, Paizo might be persuaded to release some epic-level modules, which means that even more of their creative talent will be tangled up in that. Or (shudder) an epic bestiary.
So yes, I will fight against epic rules until my keyboard dies. It's nothing personal, but I want Paizo to spend the money they get from me on stuff I will use someday.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Just from my limited experience, Epic Rules are not usually useful at all.
They introduce new subsystems that have to fit with the already heavy bag of options a high-level party has. Fixing the fighter meant inventing complex new feat chains to support choice and versatility even as the Wizard starts to gain a whole bag of tricks to compete. Think of how a Fighter would have to evolve to keep pace with a Wizard...
They have to continue offering "real advancement" even though many capstone abilities have a certain "definitive" feel to them. That is because we can feel this is the "accomplishment" of having moved from start to finish. If you move the finish line, not only do you invalidate the old - you have to top it with each step past being all the more glorious. I like White Wolf's Exalted, but it is really hard to "feel" that you're going somewhere after a certain point.
They need to continue presenting a challenge to the players but still the world has to feel "important" to middeling PCs. I have yet to see a PC who really is satisfied with the Elminster Dilemma and its various cop-outs. Same goes for the approach of making only the bad guys epic. ;)
Actually, the XP chart shouldn't be too hard to extrapolate past 20. If you rule that you can only advance to level 20 in any base class and get to choose a different one afterwards, that allows you to go past. Allows you to choose a PRC to complement your old base class - and that's all the epic rules I feel necessary. :)
Yes, we will lose on epic stuff.
Paizo's creative juices will be spent on stuff most of us will never use.
All of them? Every ounce of their creative juices? There will be nothing left, just Epic and nothing else?
You can't really think that, can you?
Instead of developing APs and rules, Paizo staff will have to address a bazillion rules questions regarding epic stuff. Jason will be swamped with questions, issues, FAQ/errata requests. Instead of solving the problems of normal-level play, he will have to handle problems related to epic levels.
Ahh, well, I see that you do think that.
/sigh
Must it be black and white? Is it not possible that they might do both?
Even worse, Paizo might be persuaded to release some epic-level modules, which means that even more of their creative talent will be tangled up in that. Or (shudder) an epic bestiary.
And yet, so many of your fellow gamers want those very things. So many people who share a hobby with you, who share a passion for a wonderful game system with you, who have so much in common with you, want those very things.
That's our world today, isn't it? Not just you, but all of us. We want our needs fulfilled 100% and care very little for the desires of everyone else.
So yes, I will fight against epic rules until my keyboard dies.
Until your keyboard dies. Wow. Carry on, man, fight the good fight!
It's nothing personal,
Yes it is.
You (plural you) want Paizo to give you everything you want and could not care less about the wants of others as long as you're all getting what you want.
You've basically just told me you'll fight until your keyboard dies to make sure that I'm unsatisfied and unahppy.
That's personal.
I would never say that to you. I won't fight against what you want. I want Paizo to give you your every desire. I truly do. And I want them to give me mine too. I hope, quite fervently, that they can fully satisfy all of us.
However, resources are limited, so I doubt they can do that, so then I hope they can mostly satisfy all of us. I don't want for one second for them to meet all my wants and needs at the cost of alienating any, not even one, of my fellow gamers.
It's true. I want to game with other gamers. If they're all alienated, I'll just be gaming with myself and Paizo will go out of business. If most are alienated, Paizo will be out of business and I'll have a devil of a time finding any fellow gamers. If some are alienated, Paizo might go out of business and I'll have fewer gamers to game with.
There - there's my selfish impulse. I want to game. I want to have fun with Pathfinder. I want to game with other people who are having fun with Pathfinder. I want the numbers of gamers having fun with Pathfinder to grow and flourish so that I can walk into any store in town and say "I am looking for some new players" and have a dozen people, right then, right there, step up and say "Great! Me too!"
Maybe you'll be one of those players. That would be great.
but I want Paizo to spend the money they get from me on stuff I will use someday.
Isn't that guaranteed? I mean, think about what you're saying. You want them to spend the money they get from you on stuff you'll use. Since you spent the money and brought the book home, I assume you'll use it. If you spend your money on the Bestiary 2, I assume you'll use it.
If you don't buy the Epic rulebook, then you won't have spent any money on it, right?
Just from my limited experience, Epic Rules are not usually useful at all.
Oh, yes, I agree. 3.x Epic rules were awful.
They introduce new subsystems that have to fit with the already heavy bag of options a high-level party has.
Well....
I am not sure they have to introduce new subsystems. Past examples certainly have done so, But I'm not sure it's a requirement.
Fixing the fighter meant inventing complex new feat chains to support choice and versatility
That should really be done in the low- to mid-teens. If fighters were "fixed" well enough in a "Teen Level Sourcebook", then would an "Epic Level Sourcebook" really be so bad?
even as the Wizard starts to gain a whole bag of tricks to compete. Think of how a Fighter would have to evolve to keep pace with a Wizard...
I know!
Isn't it amazing? I love thinking about this stuff; that's what makes Epic so interesting - watching the characters evolve and grow and get more cool stuff they can do!
They have to continue offering "real advancement" even though many capstone abilities have a certain "definitive" feel to them. That is because we can feel this is the "accomplishment" of having moved from start to finish.
Nah, it's just the accomplishment of getting to finish one class. What of a character who spends 10 levels in a Prestige Class? Such a character will need to reach level 30, assuming he returns to his original base class, before he ever sees that capstone.
That "accomplishment" of having finished the class comes at class level 20 not necessarily at character level 20.
If you move the finish line, not only do you invalidate the old -
Invalidate? Hardly. Just because you finished one class (assuming your 20 character levels are all in just one base class without even taking a single level dip in any other class), doesn't mean there can't be a whole world of new possibilities out there...
Finished Fighter and got the capstone? Awesome! Congratulations! But now, think how much more awesome you would be if you add 20 new levels of Druid and get that capstone too! Fighter20/Druid20, two capstones!
Now that's Epic!
you have to top it with each step past being all the more glorious. I like White Wolf's Exalted, but it is really hard to "feel" that you're going somewhere after a certain point.
Sure, sooner or later, everyone retires. I just don't think the wall has to be at 20.
17, cruising right along.
18, all is well.
19, everything's still good.
20, Oops! Slam! I hit the wall, time to retire this guy.
Doesn't have to be that way.
They need to continue presenting a challenge to the players but still the world has to feel "important" to middeling PCs.
There's a lot more than just the world. Paizo has already released some source material on things beyond Golarion.
It's very easy for characters who reach level 20, or even a little before level 20, to figure out that they're the biggest fish on Golarion - but hop into the right planar portal and now they're just a small fish in a really scary new ocean.
Or, alternatively, those fish could have their own planar portal and decide that Golarion looks ripe for the plucking...
I have yet to see a PC who really is satisfied with the Elminster Dilemma and its various cop-outs. Same goes for the approach of making only the bad guys epic. ;)
I have no idea what you're talking about.
But I can show you three campaigns I've DM'd and one I've played in that went well past 20th level and everyone thoroughly enjoyed it.
Actually, the XP chart shouldn't be too hard to extrapolate past 20. If you rule that you can only advance to level 20 in any base class and get to choose a different one afterwards, that allows you to go past. Allows you to choose a PRC to complement your old base class - and that's all the epic rules I feel necessary. :)
Actually, I'm fairly with you there. I think 3.x would have been much better off if they had done exactly that. Forget that whole painful new ruleset where you never get any more BAB or base saves or HP (but you get extra feats to replace them). That was silly.
But, there's more work to be done. An Epic system does need new challenges. There aren't many monsters in the book that can scare a group of four 22nd level characters. And nothing that can scare a group of four 25th level characters. Giving class levels to every dragon and demon gets unsatisfying, and fighting 32 balors at a time might be fun once, but not all the time.
So source material should be written. Challenges should be created. Limits should be set. And maybe some new magic items and spells and feats that do things you can't really do before level 20 might be fun too.
I am really looking forward to it!
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I think the whole shebang necessary for "Epic Level Play" (new Monsters, Rules, Limits, ...) is much better handled in a 3rd party supplement.
Paizo is rather large, and anything they put out has certain required sales to break even, and binds talent probably better put elsewhere. That way, everybody wins (isn't the OGL great, BTW?) You get your support when you need it - and most people still get their Pathfinder and Golarion as they've grown to like it.
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DM Blake:
If Paizo were WotC and could afford to throw 3 writers, 2 editors and 4 artists at a book without making any impact on the rest of their scheudule, I wouldn't care.
But Paizo is not WotC. Their resources are strained. Books are slipping (GMG ? revised Campaign Setting ?) and are coming out with a worrying increase in editing errors (Adventurers Armory, APG). Paizo has to swim to survive.
Even if I don't buy the Epic Book, it will be written, developed and published using money Paizo gets from my purchases. Somebody has to pay up for the book, and guess where that money comes from ?
Sure, you could say that sales on Epic Book will help Paizo develop stuff I like - APs, setting etc. But what if the epic book flops ?
You're guilt tripping me on being selfish and not caring about the others preferences. Well, duh, this isn't community council or band of brothers, this is capitalism and we are customers of a company. They are doing what they can to sell us their products, and we are doing what we can to have them publish products we want to buy.
I personally can live happily without a line of epic products...
That said, an article on epic play could do wonders. I remember the "epic rules" for the 3.0 Forgotten Realms campaign setting. They took around a page and allowed a DM to create characters some levels beyond 20th with little effort.
Paizo could that as additional material for an AP. Whispering Tyrant coming next semester anyone??
So, yes, a few rules for seeing what happens after level 20 would be fine in the way FR did it (that is, epic levels working like an advanced template, that was what the FR rules did).
On the other hand, the proliferation of "epic feats" can really kill the game...
As for epic monsters, with very few exceptions epic bestiaries feel quite ridiculous... It is easier to use some guidelines as above to create epic level adversaries, or to advance powerful monsters to produce mythic creatures (epic aboleth sorcerer would do marvels...)
So, please, guidelines for epic play would round up the rules... an epic line of products could spoil them.
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Well personally I grow to love my characters after 20 levels of play and want to continue them on, I'll certainly purchase Epic rules, and from my experience I would say a good 70% of those I game with will to. For me Epic levels are often far more interesting because they become more RP focused - okay partially by necessity - because your characters are now beings of import on a planar scale.
You might not like it, but I do and I am willing to bet more people would buy it than another companion or a specialist Psionics book, etc.
Yar.
Just want to mention (I don't have time right now to go searching the archives to link to the posts) that Jacobs has said that if/when epic level pathfinder is explored, they want to do it right. They do not want to make the same mistakes that were made in the past (3x epic level handbook creating a new subset of rules, for example), so you should not worry about stuff like new rules that don't integrate well or that change everything.
The main thing is, if/when it happens, they want it to be done right, and that takes time. Time taken up by things with higher priority on their plate; and time actually working on it, making sure that it is done right. HENCE James Jacobs has said on more than one occation that epic is on his mind, but will not see fruition for a while yet.
~P
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Yes, we will lose on epic stuff.
Paizo's creative juices will be spent on stuff most of us will never use.
Instead of developing APs and rules, Paizo staff will have to address a bazillion rules questions regarding epic stuff. Jason will be swamped with questions, issues, FAQ/errata requests. Instead of solving the problems of normal-level play, he will have to handle problems related to epic levels.
Even worse, Paizo might be persuaded to release some epic-level modules, which means that even more of their creative talent will be tangled up in that. Or (shudder) an epic bestiary.
So yes, I will fight against epic rules until my keyboard dies. It's nothing personal, but I want Paizo to spend the money they get from me on stuff I will use someday.
You have my bow!
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Not seeing what the big deal is. If and when they do Epic lvl play they are not going to simply drop everything else. I dont see them doing an epic Ap right away (if ever) Although I could see them doing the occasional module or two but not much more than that. Yes Epic rules wont be for everyone but then again Tian xia wont be for everyone, the APG wasn't for everyone This is hardly something new.
Finally I suspect that the delays that have been happening aren't solely down to hardback books being developed. Other factors are involved as well (Gencon being an example, or the moving of offices being part of the delay in the case of the Gamesmastery guide
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You have my bow!Yes, we will lose on epic stuff.
Paizo's creative juices will be spent on stuff most of us will never use.
Instead of developing APs and rules, Paizo staff will have to address a bazillion rules questions regarding epic stuff. Jason will be swamped with questions, issues, FAQ/errata requests. Instead of solving the problems of normal-level play, he will have to handle problems related to epic levels.
Even worse, Paizo might be persuaded to release some epic-level modules, which means that even more of their creative talent will be tangled up in that. Or (shudder) an epic bestiary.
So yes, I will fight against epic rules until my keyboard dies. It's nothing personal, but I want Paizo to spend the money they get from me on stuff I will use someday.
You don't need to buy it. I didn't buy dwarves or elves of golarion.
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You don't need to buy it. I didn't buy dwarves or elves of golarion.You have my bow!Yes, we will lose on epic stuff.
Paizo's creative juices will be spent on stuff most of us will never use.
Instead of developing APs and rules, Paizo staff will have to address a bazillion rules questions regarding epic stuff. Jason will be swamped with questions, issues, FAQ/errata requests. Instead of solving the problems of normal-level play, he will have to handle problems related to epic levels.
Even worse, Paizo might be persuaded to release some epic-level modules, which means that even more of their creative talent will be tangled up in that. Or (shudder) an epic bestiary.
So yes, I will fight against epic rules until my keyboard dies. It's nothing personal, but I want Paizo to spend the money they get from me on stuff I will use someday.
Yes, but the salary for people who worked on those two books came ... from income on books which you bought. :)
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By that argument would that not mean that they should never work on any books ever because someone somewhere is going to be a previous paying customer who doesn't want that product
Yes, but the salary for people who worked on those two books came ... from income on books which you bought. :)
Of course, except that I want that the anti-epic movememnt will actually see that happen :) If a government would include every citizen and his wishes they would never get anything done. It's a question of who yells the most :)
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Of course, except that I want that the anti-epic movement will actually see that happen :) If a government would include every citizen and his wishes they would never get anything done. It's a question of who yells the most :)By that argument would that not mean that they should never work on any books ever because someone somewhere is going to be a previous paying customer who doesn't want that product
Yes, but the salary for people who worked on those two books came ... from income on books which you bought. :)
Well at the end of the day the fact that they are even talking about doing Epic rules indicate that they do believe that there is a market for them (James has indicated they get Market data from forums, conventions emails, etc). I also suspect that James and the others know that it is not going to be as popular as the core rules book or the APG and will market it accordingly.
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We very much enjoyed the cheesefest that was high-level gaming back in 1st / 2nd edition with the Bloodstone modules. (Messing up an encounter and having to kill the Tarrasque *again?* Throwing up a wall of force and letting the illusionist take care of it himself? Finding a freakish library that the DM says probably contains every spell ever known, and having a demon encounter that threatens to destroy it, and replying by nuking the entire room, and then saying to the shocked DM, "I'm 20th level. I already have every spell I want..."? Killing Orcus in a single round? Figuring out how quickly a dozen dragon simulacra could wipe out an army of frost giants (or vice-versa)? Fun stuff.)
But I'm older now, and that sort of wankery no longer amuses me in D&D (although I still like playing superheroes!).
Epic Rules are of zero interest to me. (The only thing in the Epic Handbook for 3.X I liked was the Augmented Alchemy feat, and I made it non-Epic, since it was *hardly* 'epic.' Indeed, a fair chunk of the 'Epic' feats were pretty un-spectacular. 'Even Bigger Weapon Focus.' Yeah, that didn't exactly get me moist.)
That being said, if Paizo wants to dedicate a few products to exploring levels 21+, I'm all for it. Those who *like* Epic deserve a bone thrown their way, and not only does it not cost me anything, it actually saves me money, since I don't actually have to buy *everything* that Paizo puts out.
Same with Psionics. I hope they do make something for the fans of those rules (something that appeals to *them,* and doesn't run the risk of pissing them off by trying to arouse the interest of non-fans), but it's not going on my pull-list at the gaming store.
I'm not a compleatist. I still don't even have 'Taldor: Echoes of Prententious Yobs Who Don't Know How Irrelevant They've Become' yet. :)
And I'm okay with that. Not everything Paizo creates has to be for *me.*
wanders through the thread in search of his fellows
I was in a campaign where we actually hit level 20. Someone asked if we were going to go into Epic, and the DM brought out the Exalted books saying "This is, I think, more applicable then the actual epic rules."
Then we put them away because, god, no, it was just a joke. We aren't playing Exalted. Come on we have some taste.
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I was in a campaign where we actually hit level 20. Someone asked if we were going to go into Epic, and the DM brought out the Exalted books saying "This is, I think, more applicable then the actual epic rules."
Then we put them away because, god, no, it was just a joke. We aren't playing Exalted. Come on we have some taste.
And you didn't have two buckets of d10s handy ;)
In my limited experience, I've never understood epic rules. Why aren't the last couple of levels of the regular 1-20 range considered epic? When the "Average Joe" NPC rarely sees into levels with double digits, isn't a 20th level a god to them?
I think that if I ever DM'd a game that reached 20th level, I'd be far more inclined to run a variant of E6 where the level never went up, but experience would eventually bestow additional feats/spells/skills, etc.
I am generally in favor of different strokes for different folks. I think Paizo should either provide some epic level rules for that subset of the gaming community that wants them or encourage some third party publisher to do so.
That said, do I want it to become a major focus for Paizo? Absolutely not. As some posters have already said, with the general power-up Pathfinder has continues along the path of 3.X, the game is already approaching what some would call a superheroes game, with ever more and more powerful characters requiring ever more and more powerful challenges to produce the exact same thrill that was received when a 1st edition fighter fought a pair of kobolds. It's all just inflation, or akin to the need of a junkie to have ever larger doses of the same drug to achieve the same high. But people obviously want it or they wouldn't do it.
For me, PF is more than epic enough, especially at high levels. Look at Kingmaker. Characters get to rule a kingdom, lead armies, plane hop, interact directly with near deities. That seems pretty epic to me, and is more than enough to satisfy me. But that's just me. Obviously some people enjoy the amazingly fragrant cheese that super-high level play has always been, and more power to them.
I hope Paizo does its market research carefully, though. I'd hate to see them put too much into a product line that has appeal to only one part of their market. It certainly won't draw my dollar, just as the 3.5 epic rules were one of the few things I didn't buy.
I hope they can find the balance between producing the niche products needed to satisfy the desires of individual market segments, and keeping up the quality and quantity of mainline products necessary to staisfy the masses.
RPG Superstar 2013
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I have two thoughts on this:
First, one of the great things about the 3.0 epic book is that you can have an epic character that is just another level up in power scale, or you can have truly grotesque characters who jump in power once they reach in epic scale. You can customize your game to your flavor of truly powerful, legendary characters. That makes a good set of epic rules necessary, I think. To allow people with different ideas to play games above 20th level. I also believe and epic AP can still begin at first level and continue beyond 20th. It would be hard to get there and the obituaries might pile up, but it would be fun. An AP just for epic characters would also be great once or twice (maybe more). All you have to do is design the aftermath of any one AP.
Second, Even if it has mediocre sales and isn't wildly popular, an epic book helps complete the line and range of options. You can encourage sales by having advice on high-level adventure play, and non-epic design elements to appeal to folk playing above 15th level.
You have my bow!
And my hax!
Epic Rules are of zero interest to me. (The only thing in the Epic Handbook for 3.X I liked was the Augmented Alchemy feat, and I made it non-Epic, since it was *hardly* 'epic.' Indeed, a fair chunk of the 'Epic' feats were pretty un-spectacular. 'Even Bigger Weapon Focus.' Yeah, that didn't exactly get me moist.)That being said, if Paizo wants to dedicate a few products to exploring levels 21+, I'm all for it. Those who *like* Epic deserve a bone thrown their way, and not only does it not cost me anything, it actually saves me money, since I don't actually have to buy *everything* that Paizo puts out.
Same with Psionics. I hope they do make something for the fans of those rules (something that appeals to *them,* and doesn't run the risk of pissing them off by trying to arouse the interest of non-fans), but it's not going on my pull-list at the gaming store.
I'm not a compleatist. I still don't even have 'Taldor: Echoes of Prententious Yobs Who Don't Know How Irrelevant They've Become' yet. :)
And I'm okay with that. Not everything Paizo creates has to be for *me.*
Set sums up my stance pretty well. Now one point I do want to clarify - my original post assumes that if Paizo decides to produce Epic Rules, they would get the same level of resource commitment as Asian-themed adventure appears likely to receive in 2011.
I had never really conceived such a possibility before the Gen Con announcements/summaries but I also figured Asian-themed adventuring would get a supplement or two. Instead, if I understand the plan correctly, it'll receive a RPG supplement, a campaign setting, and an (awesome-sounding, I must admit) AP devoted to it.
It was merely conjecture on my part that a similar effort could be directed to epic-level play as well. If that's not the plan, then I view the "risk" to Paizo as very, very small.
The only time I have seen epic levels work is where the entire campaign, and large parts of the campaign setting where based around it. That said, I've sen epic done right and epic done wrong; when it's done right it's a blast, when it's done wrong it's terrible.
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My recommendation for a super-simple epic ruleset? That doesn't immediately make the challenges (for whatever level of challenge there is for 20th level characters) outdated?
You've heart of E6? Now consider this:
E20.
+1
In fair disclosure, I too absolutely loathe the idea of resources being expended on an epic book. Why can't level 20 be epic? Are we really that hellbent on "gaining that next level" that making level 20 campaigns, which already involve activities such as stopping time and doing 250+ points of damage a round isn't considered "epic" enough?
I'm not concerned about the whole "the gameplay breaks down at high levels" aspect, I just don't get why you can't keep playing and why more rules have to be added to do so.
Are there enough Epic-level fans to warrant valuable Paizo RPG development time, resources, & costs? I tend to think not, but that's me.
Are there enough people interested in high-level but not Epic play to warrant continued creation and balancing of 8th and 9th level spells? If the entire bloody game should end at 15th, what is the point of high level spells or even capstone abilities?
I find it interesting all this distaste I keep hearing for high level play. Thinking of the people I've gamed with I cannot think of a single person who has expressed this opinion to me. In fact most of the can't wait to get to very high level.
For me the Epic Level Handbook is still one of my most beloved books. I think both I and my players are looking forward to the chance to crack it open once again. Too bad it takes a while to get there since I normally start my games around 2nd or 3rd level.
I find it interesting all this distaste I keep hearing for high level play. Thinking of the people I've gamed with I cannot think of a single person who has expressed this opinion to me. In fact most of the can't wait to get to very high level.
For me the Epic Level Handbook is still one of my most beloved books. I think both I and my players are looking forward to the chance to crack it open once again. Too bad it takes a while to get there since I normally start my games around 2nd or 3rd level.
Keep in mind that the core of paizo's fanbase is still dms. Many of them are exclusivly DM's given that for a long time almost all of paizo's products were dm centric. And there is little question that, regardless of how much fun you think high level play is (anywhere on the scale of aaarg to awesome sauce) it is more work for a dm. Alot more work. There is tons more to keep track of, building npc's takes ages, there is less support material for dm's in the form of printed npc's adventures, and anything else really. It is a pain.
I hapeen to really like it, but my group doesnt play at that level often because campaign's dont go on long enough. But I will freely admit I like playing high and epic level play alot more then I like dming it.
So with the core of the fanbase (and thus the people here on these boards) at least frequent dms i think the distaste for high level play makes lots of sense.
Personally I'd love to see some support for epic and high level play, and I trust that paizo will do so in a way that makes business sense for them. I doubt they will sink a whole AP, or even more then a couple products into it. So I wouldnt worry too much about the risk. And there are definately enough people around who want (and have asked for) the product to make it sell.
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Keep in mind that the core of paizo's fanbase is still dms. Many of them are exclusivly DM's given that for a long time almost all of paizo's products were dm centric. And there is little question that, regardless of how much fun you think high level play is (anywhere on the scale of aaarg to awesome sauce) it is more work for a dm. Alot more work. There is tons more to keep track of, building npc's takes ages, there is less support material for dm's in the form of printed npc's adventures, and anything else really. It is a pain.
This may be true, but I don't buy that all the epic hate is from GMs only. My entire circle of gaming friends have discussed our favorite levels on numerous occasions. All but a handful of us really dislike high-level or epic gaming. I think a lot of people just prefer the gritty down in the dirt play of fighting off a horde of orcs vs. plane hopping and taking down gods.
If Paizo does create a set of "epic" (level 21+) rules, I sincerely hope they don't try to shoehorn a bunch of epic-level creatures into Golarion. I really dislike the idea that my level 1-7 characters are busting their asses fighting orcs and dragons when there's a whole society of epic-level heroes and villains right next door who could wipe out entire armies with a toenail clipping.