Yeah, something is missing from this picture, as technically a level 4 could play in a Tier 1-7, sub-tier 6-7 couldn't they?There is no difference between a 4th level PC playing up to 5-6 sub-tier and a 7th level PC playing up to 8-9 sub-tier in a 5-9 scenario.But there is from a monetary perspective. Josh has noted on many occasions that there is a rhyme and reason to his decisions that a lot of time have financial ramifications in order to keep the game "even". While it may appear to be the same, chances are there's more at play than any of us are really aware.
Yes, a level 4 can play up one sub-tier in this situation, if it is the only way they can play their character. But if there are two tables, both running the same Tier 1-7 scenario, with one running at 3-4 and the other at 6-7, the player with the level 4 character would be required to play at the table most suitable for their level. They can't just say "I feel like playing up today," and go with the other table.
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Yes, a level 4 can play up one sub-tier in this situation, if it is the only way they can play their character. But if there are two tables, both running the same Tier 1-7 scenario, with one running at 3-4 and the other at 6-7, the player with the level 4 character would be required to play at the table most suitable for their level. They can't just say "I feel like playing up today," and go with the other table.
This is not true. A level 4 character can play in a 3-4 group or can play in a 6-7 group. There are no restrictions on this, even if two tables are running the games at the sub-tiers you noted. If both are legal tables (no more than six players, at least four), then they can be at either one. On the other hand, a good organizer will see the discrepancy and make sure they're playing at the right table, but it is in no way required.
That was the complaint of the poster we were responding to. In this example they could play in a 6-7 sub-tier group, but a level 5 could not play in a 5-6 sub-tier in a 5-9 adventure.
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Ok...Once I get home I am going to detail a really easy level by level guide on what each level can legally play.
I believe this is what you are looking for.
EDIT: I grabbed that from another post, it seems to refer to APL, not character level. So it looks like another spreadsheet actually is required.
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Ok...Once I get home I am going to detail a really easy level by level guide on what each level can legally play.I believe this is what you are looking for.
Please note that's based on APL and not individual character level.
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Yeah, something is missing from this picture, as technically a level 4 could play in a Tier 1-7, sub-tier 6-7 couldn't they?There is no difference between a 4th level PC playing up to 5-6 sub-tier and a 7th level PC playing up to 8-9 sub-tier in a 5-9 scenario.But there is from a monetary perspective. Josh has noted on many occasions that there is a rhyme and reason to his decisions that a lot of time have financial ramifications in order to keep the game "even". While it may appear to be the same, chances are there's more at play than any of us are really aware.
As an owner of every scenario and a geeky engineer who likes spreadsheets, I have that picture. It's likely not one that Josh would like spread around, but I can say that there are some significant reasons why a level 4 should not be allowed to play a subtier 5-6 scenario.
But there is far more to this picture than gold and item access.
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As an owner of every scenario and a geeky engineer who likes spreadsheets, I have that picture.
*Wipes the sweat from his brow.*
Phew, for a while there, I thought I was the only geeky engineer who likes his spreadsheets on these boards.Two of my spreadsheets can be found here.
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Ok Here we Go, My Promise Explanation!!!
I will Start off with Terms
Tier - All scenarios Fall in a Tier Range The Range is Below
Tier 1-5
Tier 1-7
Tier 5-9
Tier 7-11
Tier 12
All tiers Except Level 12 have Sub-Tiers
Tier 1-5 Sub-Tiers: 1-2 & 4-5
Tier 1-7 Sub Tiers: 1-2, 3-4 & 6-7
Tier 5-9 Sub Tiers: 5-6 & 8-9
Tier 7-11 Sub Tiers: 7-8 & 10-11
Tier 12: no Sub Tiers
You are allowed to play Up 1 Sub-Tier within a scenario if your level falls in the overall tier, but the GM/coordinator should try to avoid it.
You are not allowed to play up Tier
So that Said here is the break out per Level, * designates preferred and GM/Coordinator should always put them in preferred if at all possible.
Level 1
Tier 1-5 Scenario: Sub-Tier 1-2*, Can play up to Sub-Tier 4-5
Tier 1-7 Scenario: Sub-Tier 1-2*, Can play up to Sub-Tier 3-4, Cannot Play up to Sub-Tier 6-7
Tier 5-9 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 7-11 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 12 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Level 2
Tier 1-5 Scenario: Sub-Tier 1-2*, Can play up to Sub-Tier 4-5
Tier 1-7 Scenario: Sub-Tier 1-2*, Can play up to Sub-Tier 3-4, Cannot Play up to Sub-Tier 6-7
Tier 5-9 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 7-11 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 12 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Level 3
Tier 1-5 Scenario: Can play down to Sub-Tier 1-2, Can play up to Sub-Tier 4-5
Tier 1-7 Scenario: Can play down to Sub-Tier 1-2, Sub-Tier 3-4*, Can play up to Sub-Tier 6-7
Tier 5-9 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 7-11 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 12 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Level 4
Tier 1-5 Scenario: Can play down to Sub-Tier 1-2, Sub-Tier 4-5*
Tier 1-7 Scenario: Can play down to Sub-Tier 1-2, Sub-Tier 3-4*, Can play up to Sub-Tier 6-7
Tier 5-9 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 7-11 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 12 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Level 5
Tier 1-5 Scenario: Can play down to Sub-Tier 1-2, Sub-Tier 4-5*
Tier 1-7 Scenario: Cannot play down to Sub-Tier 1-2, Can play down to Sub-Tier 3-4, Can play up to Sub-Tier 6-7
Tier 5-9 Scenario: Sub-Tier 5-6*, Can play up to Sub-Tier 8-9
Tier 7-11 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 12 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Level 6
Tier 1-5 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 1-7 Scenario: Cannot play down to Sub-Tier 1-2, Can play down to Sub-Tier 3-4, Sub-Tier 6-7*
Tier 5-9 Scenario: Sub-Tier 5-6*, Can play up to Sub-Tier 8-9
Tier 7-11 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 12 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Level 7
Tier 1-5 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 1-7 Scenario: Cannot play down to Sub-Tier 1-2, Can play down to Sub-Tier 3-4, Sub-Tier 6-7*
Tier 5-9 Scenario: Can play down to Sub-Tier 5-6, Can play up to Sub-Tier 8-9
Tier 7-11 Scenario: Sub-Tier 7-8*, Can play up to Sub-Tier 10-11
Tier 12 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Level 8
Tier 1-5 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 1-7 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 5-9 Scenario: Can play down to Sub-Tier 5-6, Sub-Tier 8-9*
Tier 7-11 Scenario: Sub-Tier 7-8*, Can play up to Sub-Tier 10-11
Tier 12 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Level 9
Tier 1-5 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 1-7 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 5-9 Scenario: Can play down to Sub-Tier 5-6, Sub-Tier 8-9*
Tier 7-11 Scenario: Can play down to Sub-Tier 7-8, Can play up to Sub-Tier 10-11
Tier 12 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Level 10
Tier 1-5 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 1-7 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 5-9 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 7-11 Scenario: Can play down to Sub-Tier 7-8, Sub-Tier 10-11*
Tier 12 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Level 11
Tier 1-5 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 1-7 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 5-9 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 7-11 Scenario: Can play down to Sub-Tier 7-8, Sub-Tier 10-11*
Tier 12 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Level 12
Tier 1-5 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 1-7 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 5-9 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 7-11 Scenario: Cannot play in these Scenarios
Tier 12 Scenario: Tier 12*
Play, Play, Play cannot be used to deviate from this, if you have seen otherwise, there was a mistake made and people make mistakes *Even Josh*, don't use that Mistake to believe you can use Play, Play, Play.
But there is also this quote from page 18, under Level Cap, of the Guide 3.0:
Though it is possible for lower-level characters to occasionally at higher Tiers (playing up) or lower Tiers (playing down) in order to make a legal table, it is never permissible for a 12th-level Pathfinder Society character to play down.
Josh had also posted before GenCon in another discussion about this subject that there were some clarifications or changes coming with the next full version of the Guide, which should be out in a week or two.
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But there is also this quote from page 18, under Level Cap, of the Guide 3.0:
Though it is possible for lower-level characters to occasionally at higher Tiers (playing up) or lower Tiers (playing down) in order to make a legal table, it is never permissible for a 12th-level Pathfinder Society character to play down.Josh had also posted before GenCon in another discussion about this subject that there were some clarifications or changes coming with the next full version of the Guide, which should be out in a week or two.
Stop muddling my Perfectly clear explanation!!!! ;)
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You are not allowed to play up TierPlease state your source. I can't find this in the PFS Guide. It may be implied but I can not find it stated anywhere. In fact ...
Rarely, PCs may be allowed to play “up” a Tier if they’re lower level than all of the other players..
-Swiftbrook
That is Poor language use by Josh, and he has admitted so... Lets all assume I am right... Because I am.. ;)
Edit: From the Guide
A player may only ever play up one step—so a level 1 character can play up to sub-Tier 4–5 *implied tier 1-5 since that is the only one with that sub-tier*, but cannot play up to sub-Tier 6–7 *Which Implies a level one cannot play higher then that either (Going up a Tier)* though these instances should be rare.
You need to use your extrapolation abilities on this, but above is a good thing to use to support what everyone says is right.
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That is Poor language use by Josh, and he has admitted so... Lets all assume I am right... Because I am.. ;)
/ snip /
You need to use your extrapolation abilities on this, but above is a good thing to use to support what everyone says is right.
Wouldn't it be easier to say that "Your level must be within one of the sub-tier being played" ? So a scenario for 1st to 7th level PCs has sub-tiers 1-2, 3-4 and 6-7. You need to be within one level of the sub-tier that your playing, so a 3-4 sub-tier could be played by 2nd to 5th level PCs. This just seems simpler.
For that matter, as a second point, eliminate 'sub-tier' and just call the current sub-tiers the tiers, like it is on the Chronicle sheets.
If you want, a Pathfinder coordinator at a convention could let a PC play off by two to make a legal table. A 1st level playing in a tier 3-4. Just for the Play-Play-Play rule.
-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts
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Wouldn't it be easier to say that "Your level must be within one of the sub-tier being played" ? So a scenario for 1st to 7th level PCs has sub-tiers 1-2, 3-4 and 6-7. You need to be within one level of the sub-tier that your playing, so a 3-4 sub-tier could be played by 2nd to 5th level PCs. This just seems simpler.
But then that would be changing the rules, the rules are not 1 level, but 1 Sub Tier up or down withing the same tier..
Yes it can be clearer, but It has been explained what it means so go by that.
Josh knows it needs to be made clearer so no reason to attack that anymore. Now if you want to argue that you want it different all together, that is a whole other story.
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Wouldn't it be easier to say that "Your level must be within one of the sub-tier being played" ? So a scenario for 1st to 7th level PCs has sub-tiers 1-2, 3-4 and 6-7. You need to be within one level of the sub-tier that your playing, so a 3-4 sub-tier could be played by 2nd to 5th level PCs. This just seems simpler.
But then that would be changing the rules, the rules are not 1 level, but 1 Sub Tier up or down within the same tier..
Yes it can be clearer, but It has been explained what it means so go by that.
Josh knows it needs to be made clearer so no reason to attack that anymore. Now if you want to argue that you want it different all together, that is a whole other story.
It can get really confusing in the 4-6 level range. I think it may have already been said, but why can a level 4 character play up to 6-7 in a tier 1-7 scenario, but cannot play up to 5-6 in a tier 5-9 scenario? Which one is he more likely to survive? Of course, as more and more scenarios get released I would expect the play up or down rules to get more strict and not less, as more scenarios are available to cover all possible levels.
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I'm hoping to see the tier 1-5 disappear. I don't really see a reason to keep it in light of the tier 1-7. In my experience, the challenges seems to be less deadly for a level two playing in a 3-4 vs. 4-5 due to party APL. Even more so if you have a level one playing up due to APL. It also gives players a little more experience before jumping into mid-tier mods (5-6/8-9) which seem to have a higher lethality even though the ECL is slightly lower than sub-tier 6-7.
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It can get really confusing in the 4-6 level range. I think it may have already been said, but why can a level 4 character play up to 6-7 in a tier 1-7 scenario, but cannot play up to 5-6 in a tier 5-9 scenario? Which one is he more likely to survive? Of course, as more and more scenarios get released I would expect the play up or down rules to get more strict and not less, as more scenarios are available to cover all possible levels.
Easy to Answer...
Question 1: I think it may have already been said, but why can a level 4 character play up to 6-7 in a tier 1-7 scenario, but cannot play up to 5-6 in a tier 5-9 scenario?
Answer 1: Because Tier 5-9 is a different tier and you can not play up Tiers only Sub-Tiers. Thats said it should be avoided if possible for a level 4 to play up to a level 6-7 tier.
Question 2: Which one is he more likely to survive?
Answer 2: His own Sub-Tier, but that does not really come into the equation we are speaking of, that he may be able to survive a Sub-Tier 5-6 in a 5-9 tier scenario does not change the fact you are not allowed to play up Tier.
Statement: Of course, as more and more scenarios get released I would expect the play up or down rules to get more strict and not less, as more scenarios are available to cover all possible levels.
I doubt Josh will change the rule, but he will clarify it.
Easy to Answer...
Question 1: I think it may have already been said, but why can a level 4 character play up to 6-7 in a tier 1-7 scenario, but cannot play up to 5-6 in a tier 5-9 scenario?
Answer 1: Because Tier 5-9 is a different tier and you can not play up Tiers only Sub-Tiers. Thats said it should be avoided if possible for a level 4 to play up to a level 6-7 tier.
It's not a matter of the level 4 surviving so much as it's the cumulative effect on the rest of the party's experience in the scenario.
Yeah, I know, but I still think it is a bit of a crock that a level 4 character can run around with a bunch of level 7's, playing up in a tier 1-7, and not with a bunch of level 5's, playing in a tier 5-9. Do those level 7's really enjoy babysitting that level 4 more than those level 5's would enjoy the company of someone almost their level?
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Yeah, I know, but I still think it is a bit of a crock that a level 4 character can run around with a bunch of level 7's, playing up in a tier 1-7, and not with a bunch of level 5's, playing in a tier 5-9. Do those level 7's really enjoy babysitting that level 4 more than those level 5's would enjoy the company of someone almost their level?
Ideally it only happens in extreme cases, the preferred , method and the method that should always be done if available is the level 4 plays in his sub-tier.
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SO no comments about all the work I put in that list above... you all suck!!!! ;)
Well maybe we do.
It's all laid out nice and accurate as per the flawed rules.
Your table actually supports my point. You choose:
1) Look up your PC level on the table to see what you can play. (takes time and could be confusing)
2) Your PC level must be not be more than one above or below the tier range to play. (simple)
FWIW there is a bigger difference of a 4th level PC playing a tier 5-6 than 9th level PC playing a tier 10-11. I'm just looking at PC abilities, not what's allowed. Going from 4th to 5th you might have a 20% power gain. Going from 9th to 10th, you might have a 10% power gain.
In reality, good party mix, good thinking/tactic skills, and good rolls = an excellent chance of succeeding regardless of tier. Drop one of those off the list and even playing down can result in TPK.
Also, IRL, sometimes we just get in over our heads and we need to figure a way out. (i.e. 3rd level playing tier 5-6).
-Swiftbrook
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Going from 4th to 5th you might have a 20% power gain. Going from 9th to 10th, you might have a 10% power gain.
4th to 5th could be more like a 50% power gain depending on the class. 3rd level spells are significantly more powerful than 2nd (Haste, Fireball). Channeling jumps up 50%. 5th level also grants every character a feat. Hit points are (nearly) 20% higher.
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I'm hoping to see the tier 1-5 disappear. I don't really see a reason to keep it in light of the tier 1-7.
[threadjack]
Heh.I'm the complete opposite.
While I can appreciate the flexibility, I find that the scaling on the Tier 1-7 adventures is often wonky. I know that it is much more difficult to create a consistently challenging adventure at such a wide range. And I find that much more of the word count is taken up by statblocks, which eliminates much of the "flavour" from the adventure.
I would like to see an increase in the percentage of 1-5 scenarios.
[/threadjack]
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I'm hoping to see the tier 1-5 disappear. I don't really see a reason to keep it in light of the tier 1-7.[threadjack]
Heh.
I'm the complete opposite.
While I can appreciate the flexibility, I find that the scaling on the Tier 1-7 adventures is often wonky. I know that it is much more difficult to create a consistently challenging adventure at such a wide range. And I find that much more of the word count is taken up by statblocks, which eliminates much of the "flavour" from the adventure.
I would like to see an increase in the percentage of 1-5 scenarios.
[/threadjack]
I agree, it feels like many of the more recent senarios for large numbers of people had a forced trap in there to get the correct number of encounters it makes it feel like either an encounter was turned into a trap to allow for story elements, or story elements were cut to keep the intended encounters. (I don't know if this is the case, its just what I've felt reading the last few I ran)
Tier 1-7, in the earliest planning for the Society, was going to be Tier 3-7.
So we would've had:
1-5
3-7
5-9
7-11
12
But then after the first two months of Society play, I started crunching some numbers and realized that someone killed after their 6th chronicle would find themselves unable to start leveling another PC. The solution was to add more sub-Tier 1-2 play, so Tier 3-7 became Tier 1-7.
As the tiers of each scenario are determined by the maximum possible level of a player who plays everything, Tier 1-5 becomes possible several times throughout the year. Tier 1-7 is something I use when 3-7 is the possibility on the spreadsheet *or* when it comes time for Paizo Con and Gen Con and I need a wider level range for that's month's released scenarios to cover a larger group of players.
I'd personally much rather write and develop Tier 1-5 scenarios. Three tiers seems to take twice as long to develop than two.
As for the hullabaloo here about playing up, I'm going to re-examine all of the language and terms with regards to this topic in a future update and see if I can't make it (a) more clear and (b) more easy to understand.
And I should also note that any time I placed someone out of Tier at Gen Con it was either (a) because they were making such a big stink about playing with a friend or loved one that I didn't want to hear it anymore or (b) it was a mistake. I'd say 90% of them were (b), though I don't recall doing it often.
I agree with your view.
I know it is the nature of the beast but remember you can't please everyone all the time so in my opinion it is better to have an established set of boundaries which applies to all.
So don't take the negatives to hard and keep a stiff upper lip for word is getting out that Pathfinder is the way to go. I for one am enjoying all the hard work you all have put into PFS and hope to see it continue to grow.
Thank you Joshua and all the others that have worked so hard to make PFS an enjoyable game.
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I've read this thread and I think I know the answer, but I want to see if I'm right.
I've been a DM or GM for over thirty years but I have only GM'ed 5 tables of PFS and it's always been as a fill-in for somebody who could not make it. With that said, in all but one instance, there was only one table playing (mine) at any of the stores where I've GM'ed. During one of these single table events, we played a 7-11 tier (7-9 subtier) with four (1x9th level, 2x7th level and 1x6th level)characters.
From reading above, I realize that I did not follow the rules in that I gave the 6th level player the option of using a level 7 pregen. My real misunderstanding of the rules came in that I thought he could earn the chronicle sheet with the pregen but he wanted to risk his 6th level guy instead so I let him. I did tell him that he could not apply the chronicle sheet until he was level 7 as I confused this with the GM credit rules. I now realize that he should have played the pregen or not played.
But that's the rub, it just feels like it's counter to what we're trying to do in PFS. Namely have fun playing Pathfinder. I had two options: tell him to play a pregen for no credit or tell him to go home. Yikes. I used my discretion and let him play because I thought play, play, play was paramount.
It looks like I should have sent him home when he declined to play the pregen.
Is this right?
Andy
