Fighters are the undisputed kings of damage against generic targets (Paladins and Rangers can beat them against specific targets). In combat, they're absolutely fine. They're also much, MUCH better out of combat thanks to the un-stupid-ing of the skill system.
Wizards got massively nerfed. Most of their "I WIN" spells ... don't win any more. Even the ones that do still win, do so much less completely, and are typically only available at extremely high levels.
...am I missing something key here.
A year of discussion and the search function of this website, perhaps? Sarcasm aside, my PCs are hitting level 7 and the party fighter remains dominant in combat.
Zo
considering few games ever hit level 20play most campains need a guy to take damage @ the begining thats your fighter, without him the rogue wizard sorcerer & bard would never make it to level 7. yeah it kinda blows that the fighter takes a back seat in the later 1/2 of the game but magic users take that the first third. Every class got boosts the wizard got the fewest.
yeah it kinda blows that the fighter takes a back seat in the later 1/2 of the game
Except that he really doesn't. Fighters can top 250 damage per round at level 20, which is a quite serious threat to anything.
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do i get a cr5 if i slay you^^ ( what are trolls cr anyways?^^)
truthfully though, i dont find the armor and weapon mastery weak. its actually VERY strong. plus fighters NOW have feats worth having that are not from obscure splat books from WOTC later years. The CMB system seems to work well too ( and the later trip feat is AWESOME)
Sure they could be 4+ skill points but that variant exist in the pathfinder campaign setting. any stronger and they will give the paladin a run for its money ( APG may bring the Barbarian back from obsolete)
Wizards getting d6 still wounds me, but atleast casting in melee isnt a joke
1. The goal of Pathfinder was not absolute balance. If you want every class to be exactly the same at everything go play 4E.
2. The fighter got enormous buffs in the ability to wear armor without penalties and extra bonuses to attack/damage.
3. After Two years and 12 levels the two party fighters are still the dominate forces in my pathfinder game in combat. They still soak up damage more readily than anyone else, do far more damage than anyone else, and remain the center of attention. YMMV, but I see no issue with the fighter.
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...am I missing something key here.A year of discussion and the search function of this website, perhaps?
+1 for the rofl-win
Fighter's aren't perfect. I think I still, in many ways, prefer the interpretation of melee classes from Tome of Battle. Fighters in PF still don't get nice things and their skills per level are an abomination before the gods but they pump out DPR better than anyone but some particularly well cheesed builds and eidolons.
The new Fighter alternate class features in the APG are pretty sweet. The THF alternate is a pretty serious contender for DPR master, especially when limited to just a standard action.
The free hand fighter is nothing if not classy as hell and the shielded fighter, archer, and phalanx fighter are cool, too.
As far I can tell, the Fighter (considered one of the weakest classes in 3.5e) is worse than it was before. Yeah, sure, they get some neat (but nearly insignificant) bonuses to armor and weapons, but the new combat maneuver system makes it overall harder to trip,etc on average. Maybe I'm missing something. Also, you get more feats.. but Paizo has introduced even MORE feat sinks for the fighter. What? This was in my opinion the worst part about 3.5e.. the useless and dumb feat chains. The fighter still has miserable saves (i.e. he'll never be able to fight anything on level with him passed like 7, because they never attack AC.)
The wizard is still as strong as I remembered also (Overpowered). Yes, some spells were nerfed a bit, but not to the point that they're not still 1 turn encounter winners, and there's still other spells that are nearly as powerful that remained untouched. And, now wizards get absolutely free bonus stuff on top of that. I don't get it.
Was Paizo not aiming for balance? Or am I missing something key here.
Well, M.A.-triple-D-zero-G...
Someone needs to do direct damage. Everything has piles of HP, and I've seen many wizards who can win the fight but can't deal the killing blow. That's what fighters are for. They're very good at it in Pathfinder, although they are still far from the "best class." Yes, the best class is still wizard, in case you're looking.
Fighter is among the best classes in the game for direct damage output, and solving problems directly with force concentrated through a sharp object.
If "Pathfinder was supposed to fix the fighter" my guess would be they did that by nerfing the cleric and the druid so they had to choose between being frontline combatants and full casters. Whether they achieved that is a matter of opinion, but I haven't seen a dearth of massively effective fighters in my own experience.
<sarcasm> But clearly, you're playing the game wrong. </sarcasm>
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...am I missing something key here.A year of discussion and the search function of this website, perhaps? Sarcasm aside, my PCs are hitting level 7 and the party fighter remains dominant in combat.
Zo
Wait 'till your PCs get to 12 then... and come talk to me again. I agree with the OP: I used to be with the "fighters are great" crowd until I played one, and with a Will save of +4 at level 12... you can guess what happened to the guy EVERY game... :(
I use Book of Experimental Might: Double Feats and Uber Feats fixes the fighter :)
Wait 'till your PCs get to 12 then... and come talk to me again. I agree with the OP: I used to be with the "fighters are great" crowd until I played one, and with a Will save of +4 at level 12... you can guess what happened to the guy EVERY game... :(...am I missing something key here.A year of discussion and the search function of this website, perhaps? Sarcasm aside, my PCs are hitting level 7 and the party fighter remains dominant in combat.
Zo
It's not the class's fault if your level 12 Fighter has a +4 total Will save. The game pretty much assumes that everyone has at least a +2 or +3 cloak of resistance at that point, and it isn't like you don't know that Will saves are going to be a weak point for Fighters and don't have plenty of feats to spend to shore up that weak point. Iron Will and Improved Iron Will aren't bad buys for a class that has 21 feats over 20 levels with a weak Will save.
FighterMan had a +20 Will save with a reroll at level 20, and I wasn't particularly optimizing him for that (just [Improved] Iron Will and a not-dumped Wisdom).
Have to agree with Zurai here, Fighter is not the only class with crap will saves. You have 12 feats by 12th level. Iron will and improved iron will and do not dump wisdom. Hell fighter has the feats to spend and still invest heavy in what he does..damage
Isn't the cleric and wizard helping protect the Fighter. You're creating a team not just one character. Fighter does damage and takes damage, spellcasters protect nonspellcasters from magic.
Have to agree with Zurai here, Fighter is not the only class with crap will saves. You have 12 feats by 12th level. Iron will and improved iron will and do not dump wisdom. Hell fighter has the feats to spend and still invest heavy in what he does..damage
My reply is that going from all good saves (AD&D) to one good save was one of the biggest nerfs to the Fighter class, and if blowing 2 feats is REQUIRED for any class to keep you effective, then a strong will save should just be part of the class. If Monstrous Humanoids get a strong Will save, I don't see why any class that is supposed to emulate the willpower and drive to succeed of an Olympian+ level combatant doesn't have the save. It isn't like they are going to get a 23 Wis like the cleric, who dovetails both.
Another reason I love Moment of Perfect Mind :0 Gives the Fighter the defenses he should already have.
==Aelryinth
Wait 'till your PCs get to 12 then... and come talk to me again. I agree with the OP: I used to be with the "fighters are great" crowd until I played one, and with a Will save of +4 at level 12... you can guess what happened to the guy EVERY game... :(
While this should pop up as an issue from time to time (every character should have a weakness), if it's happening all the time, your DM is failing the players. As DM, I have no problem with attacking a character's weakness. I do think it would be wrong for me to target that weakness every session just because I can. A good DM challenges the players. A poor DM works against them.
There are plenty of ways to improve your Will save. The fighter should consider improving his Wisdom and getting something to boost his saving throws. A cloak +2, Wisdom 12, any one of several traits, and Iron Will brings that +4 up to a +9, more than double what he started with. None of those are difficult options and don't cost much.
My reply is that going from all good saves (AD&D) to one good save was one of the biggest nerfs to the Fighter class, and if blowing 2 feats is REQUIRED for any class to keep you effective, then a strong will save should just be part of the class.
==Aelryinth
So barbarian, ranger and rogue are also broken. They need to do the same thing, yet have far, far less feats to do so.
Wait 'till your PCs get to 12 then... and come talk to me again. I agree with the OP: I used to be with the "fighters are great" crowd until I played one, and with a Will save of +4 at level 12... you can guess what happened to the guy EVERY game... :(...am I missing something key here.A year of discussion and the search function of this website, perhaps? Sarcasm aside, my PCs are hitting level 7 and the party fighter remains dominant in combat.
Zo
First of all, I never made the claim that fighters were great. Second, a Will save of +4 at 12th level begs the questions "LOL WHAT?!" and "how did you survive that long?" Last, the power band of the D&D fighter has always been strongest in the lower levels, say levels 1-7. This is historically the case. Man, for all the posters chanting "balance!" you'd think this board was full of Taoists or something.
Zo
and if blowing 2 feats is REQUIRED for any class to keep you effective, then a strong will save should just be part of the class.
Who said anything about REQUIRED? I said it was a good idea if you're worried about your Will save, not that it was REQUIRED.
Ah so this is a 'Your not playing right" issue as people decide not to one super optimized build..Gods forbid someone might want to play something other then what you find to be the "correct" way.
If you're a level 10 character and don't have a 10 in your worst save, you may want to reconsider. Level 12 with a +4? Why?! A +3 cloak of resistance, a headband of wisdom +2/+4 modifying a 12 Wis, iron will, improved iron will, traits to increase will saves...
Level 12 fighter = 4+3+3+2+1 = +13 will save at level 12, with a free re-roll. Great save classes like Monks and Paladins probably have a +18, so +13 isn't at all shabby.
If you really fear that dominate person the DM thinks he's so clever for using, a ring of counterspells with dominate person in it isn't a bad choice. Just be prepared to beg your wizard!
Or, if you're in a cheesy mood, buying a clear spindle ioun stone (4,000gp) and placing it into a common wayfinder (500gp) gives you permanent protection from possession and mental control ala protection from evil. Oh, and it gives you the effects of a ring of sustenance, so, whatever.
If you still want more, an Ebon Wayfinder (18,000gp) can hold a scarlet and blue ioun stone (8,000gp) and the clear spindle (4,000gp), and give you both permanent protection from possession and mental control ala protection from evil and a +1 bonus on Will saves.
Mmm. Seeker of Secrets.... tastes.... nacho.
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RP = Character issues
G = Effectiveness issues
I'm going to throw out a wild suggestion that's against my better judgement but here goes: how effective a character is in a given campaign should never be a concern of the player. There are two components to a roleplaying game and while the overall concept and individual build choices belong to the player, managing balance and character effectiveness should be the GM's responsibility, not the player's. The GM is there to run the world and keep things fun for everyone. The strings and cogs are for him to worry about. The player should play a character he likes and if his choices are less effective than necessary to enjoy the game, that's for the GM to fix, either by rebalancing things or advising the player. Most games assume a mixed party of average characters, which is a lot easier to challenge than a group of characters with the highest damage output possible, the highest saves, every knowledge skill, etc.
Some players will refuse all options they consider inferior. This is just a fact of gaming. I'm not proposing those players force themselves to play something they don't like. What I'm saying is that focusing too much on the game mechanics might be to the exclusion of the other component and while there may be GMs that love grinding out battle after battle and keeping all the gears turning just to watch the players "win", but most of them deal with all the grueling mechanical details and put in the prep time because they enjoy watching the players PLAY.
Thank you for your time. The Rabbit Season/Duck Season debates may resume.
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3.5 fighter sucked?
I didn't realize that.
In 3.5 I singlehandedly slew a 7-headed cryo-hydra. A very long, drawn out battle, to be sure. But a victory to the fighter.
At level 22 when fighting the Ancient Red Dragon, I regularly was able to deal over 200hp of damage per round. The dragon had a hard time hitting me at all. When he did, it hurt. The cleric healed me back and I smacked the crap out of him for that. "Bad dragon!"
At higher levels the wizard kept having his best spells fizzle to Spell Resistance. Funny how Spell Resistance has no effect on an axe! Sure he had some spectacular encounters of his own. But he was no magic bullet that ended the fight.
Usually I find that people who complain the fighter is too weak has no idea how to play a fighter. Usually people who complain the wizard is too powerful have no idea how to GM against a wizard.
Learn the tools and how to use them. You'll find a world of opportunity opens up to you.
Do you think the original poster is off somewhere twirling his mustache and watching with glee as Rabbit Season starts?I have the sudden urge to say "Duck Season!"Look, the sign clearly says "Rabbit Season!"
(it's my four-year-old's favorite Bugs Bunny short)
That's my favorite cartoon too! And I am *cough* years old.
...am I missing something key here.A year of discussion and the search function of this website, perhaps? Sarcasm aside, my PCs are hitting level 7 and the party fighter remains dominant in combat.
Zo
I haven't snickered like that in a while. A new school year starts Monday and I have to prepare for a new batch of victi... students. I thank you sir!
I can only claim that I'm giving this thread a standing ovation, you'll never know if it's true, BUT! This has sure been a fun read :) Thanks!
And btw, I think all classes rock, you just have to find that special niche where you shine! Peace!
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Fighters are part of a team. Unless your party of players/PC's are not team players why is there always a cry for PC balance. It isn't fair this or it isn't fair that and this is gimp and that is gimp arguments are just that arguments to a point that is basically moot. If your party can't get together and strategize, then the party is what is gimp NOT the class itself.
As was said earlier each class has a niche to fulfill and the fighters is meant to keep the casters/healers and more fragile characters out of Melee so THEY can cast spells and HELP to end the fight better. Fighters can and should be able to deal damage but they are there for protection as well. It is also up to the other party members to help keep THAT fighter alive so that he/she can continue to keep THEM out of melee.
It is all about being a team player in this game. As a DM it is about providing the players a fun place to play in and provide said environment to bargain/fight and role play in.
For reference: If you are a fighter at 12th lvl with only a +4 to will save then why are you playing it? You do NOT need to take extra feats and the like, but at 12th lvl you SHOULD have items and buffs at this point that will provide you with the ability to get higher saves. If you don't then YOUR party is not really helping you out and being a team. If you die then they are likely to die as well.
Good luck.
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Can we have a special section for
1) alignment threads
2) "wizzeds rulze fitter is suxXorz" threads
and
3) paladin in an ethical dilemma/killing orc babies/worshiping Amadeus/being gay and likking Deth Metal whatever threads
so I can arrow them the f&!@ closed?
Unless we get an ignore function, this. Please.
cant people just play the damn game? why does it always have to be "class x sucks cuz when i min/max it, it does 6 less damage than a min/maxed class y" i'm really tired of all this "thats broken" and "thats weak" and "thats not balanced" The devs are people and the game is complicated and has to be interesting! perfect balance is impossible!
Allow for Tome of Battle so you can have proper martial classes.