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While browsing the APG for fun new stuff, I came across the Zen Archer. I love it. I really do. However, there is one ability that they get that I'm not quite sure what to think.
Reflexive Shot (Ex): At 9th level, a zen archer can make attacks of opportunity with arrows from his bow. The monk still threatens squares he could reach with unarmed strikes, and can still only make one attack of opportunity per round (unless he has Combat Reflexes). This ability replaces Improved Evasion.
Now, I'm confused on how this works. Does it allow you to threaten all adjacent squares with your bow? Or do you now threaten all squares within your bow's range?
If the former, this ability is useless, as by the time you get it your unarmed damage is greater than your bow damage and you already threatened those squares with unarmed strikes. If the latter, this ability is far more powerful than it should be.
What do you guys think? Has there been an official clarification on this yet?
I assumed that it meant threatening any square he could make an unarmed attack into, but now I'm not so sure.
I agree that a 110' threatened range sounds like too much. I wouldn't say the ability is useless, considering a 9th level Zen Archer monk probably has a highly enhanced magical bow instead of an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
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I assumed that it meant threatening any square he could make an unarmed attack into, but now I'm not so sure.
I agree that a 110' threatened range sounds like too much. I wouldn't say the ability is useless, considering a 9th level Zen Archer monk probably has a highly enhanced magical bow instead of an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Right, and likely a much better attack roll unless he's picked up Weapon Finesse. I can see a bit more use to this ability now.
I still think its either too weak or too powerful, depending on the interpretation.
I see it as you threaten as normal with your melee weapon(i.e. your unarmed strike), but when an AOO is triggered you may choose to use your bow to attack instead of your US. As hogarth said, you are quite likely to have your bow be enhanced with nice abilities.
You might even have useful feats that you can use with your bowshot, like ranged trip.
I still think its either too weak or too powerful, depending on the interpretation.
Too weak compared to Improved Evasion? Frankly, I don't consider Improved Evasion to be all that great (since 9th level monks are usually pretty good at making Reflex saves).
At any rate, I guess you sort of have to look at the whole package, not one individual piece in isolation.
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I still think its either too weak or too powerful, depending on the interpretation.Too weak compared to Improved Evasion? Frankly, I don't consider Improved Evasion to be all that great (since 9th level monks are usually pretty good at making Reflex saves).
At any rate, I guess you sort of have to look at the whole package, not one individual piece in isolation.
Ugh, don't get me started on Evasion/Mettle. That's a whole other can of worms.
But yeah, it just seems like maybe Reflexive Shot would have made a better Fighter Archer ability, given the Monk's aptitude for unarmed strikes. It's still useful, just not to the extent that I'd like it to be.
And I think the intent of the ability was to threaten your adjacent squares with your bow. Now to make a Zen Archer build with Combat Patrol. :D
I always thought that it ment that you could do AoO on anything within your bow's range when it comes to an enemy not casting defensively or drinking a potion, hence having alot more AoO and the ( ) about combat reflexes. But it didn't increase your threatened squares, so that if someone moved toward you it wasn't an auto AoO unless it was your fist range.
It seems a bit useless for it just to allow you to use your bow for normal AoO because at that level I am pretty sure your unarmed strike is stronger anyway.
I would rule that you can simply choose to use your bow instead of the unarmed streak for an AoO in unarmed-strike threatening range. The ability is saved from uselessness because, as others have said, a bow-focused Monk variant is probably going to have a powerful bow.
In the end, it simply allows for mixing it up.
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also, don't forget that they get this ability right before that one:
Ki Arrows (Su): At 5th level, a zen archer may spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to change the damage dice of arrows he shoots to that of his unarmed strikes. This lasts until the start of his next turn. For example, a Medium zen archer's short bow normally deals 1d6 damage; using this ability, his arrows deal 1d8 damage until the start of his next turn. This ability replaces purity of body.
Thus he will be doing the same damage with his bow as his unarmed strikes sometimes.
also, don't forget that they get this ability right before that one:
Ki Arrows (Su): At 5th level, a zen archer may spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to change the damage dice of arrows he shoots to that of his unarmed strikes. This lasts until the start of his next turn. For example, a Medium zen archer's short bow normally deals 1d6 damage; using this ability, his arrows deal 1d8 damage until the start of his next turn. This ability replaces purity of body.Thus he will be doing the same damage with his bow as his unarmed strikes sometimes.
He would honestly be better off using the Ki point to make an extra attack instead of increasing the weapon's base damage.
Though it does raise the question of just how much of the "bow's damage" is supposed to be replaced -- It might save you some money on strength increased bows if the full damage is replaced.
It seems a bit useless for it just to allow you to use your bow for normal AoO because at that level I am pretty sure your unarmed strike is stronger anyway.I would tend to doubt that.
Your focused on archery not melee. The chance to hit with a melee attack vs a bow attack for a Zen archer is going to be significant.
That said it's not an all impressive ability.
Agreed, but as I noted above, it's substituting for Improved Evasion which is not particularly impressive either (IMO).
I guess you guys are right the chance to hit with your bow would probably be much greater. At first I thought it allowed me to do AoO on any action that wasn't entering my adjacent area so that I would make others thing twice to not cast defensively around me but that would be a bit too powerful
So... what happens when this guy uses the Lunge feat? Can he make attacks of opportunity as they rush him?
So... what happens when this guy uses the Lunge feat? Can he make attacks of opportunity as they rush him?
Lunge only works on your turn.
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The intention behind the rule is obvious in my opinion: You can make attacks of opportunity with your bow, but you only threaten the area you used to threaten with your unarmed strikes (i.e. everything right next to you).
Since you can only make AoOs into your threatened area, it means that if someone does something within your unarmed threat area, you get to shoot him. Say, someone walks right past you - you get to put an arrow into him.
Being able to make ranged AoOs into a huge area would be over the top, but this isn't that bad, either: zen archers are no normal monks, they train mostly in archery, not in unarmed combat. Their training (both the class abilities and their usual feat selection) reflects that. You get to AoOs with the weapon you use all the time, not some backup.
Fitting for a zen archer, since he's still a monk of sorts, and they want to become one with everything, so zen archers will want to become one with their bow, and use it as an extension of their body. A fighter just becomes very good at shooting through training and prowess.
The intention behind the rule is obvious in my opinion: You can make attacks of opportunity with your bow, but you only threaten the area you used to threaten with your unarmed strikes (i.e. everything right next to you).
Since you can only make AoOs into your threatened area, it means that if someone does something within your unarmed threat area, you get to shoot him. Say, someone walks right past you - you get to put an arrow into him.
Being able to make ranged AoOs into a huge area would be over the top, but this isn't that bad, either: zen archers are no normal monks, they train mostly in archery, not in unarmed combat. Their training (both the class abilities and their usual feat selection) reflects that. You get to AoOs with the weapon you use all the time, not some backup.
Fitting for a zen archer, since he's still a monk of sorts, and they want to become one with everything, so zen archers will want to become one with their bow, and use it as an extension of their body. A fighter just becomes very good at shooting through training and prowess.
Very true. Thanks for all the clarification guys.
So... what happens when this guy uses the Lunge feat? Can he make attacks of opportunity as they rush him?Lunge only works on your turn.
So it does.
*makes note*
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Holy Theadomancy Batman!
Has this ever been officially clarified? Could we get the author to comment on his intention here?
I'm not entirely sold on the results above.
To me, it implies two different things;
1. That he can use his bow to make Attacks of opportunity anywhere within range. Otherwise the archer would have to the in melee range, which is exactly where archers should never be.
2. That he can still threatens adjacent squares with his unarmed strikes even if he has a bow equipped.
They are separate things entirely.
No clarification is really needed, the wording of the ability is pretty clear.
At 9th level, a zen archer can make attacks of opportunity with arrows from his bow.
This does not modify where attacks of opportunity can occur, only what weapon can be used for them. Normally, one cannot threaten with a bow (unless using it as an improvised club).
The monk still threatens squares he could reach with unarmed strikes,
This indicates that the monk is threatening any square he threatens with an unarmed strike. So this means that a medium monk with normal-sized arms can only threaten the area immediately adjacent to him. (Enlarge person might be useful!)
2. That he can still threatens adjacent squares with his unarmed strikes even if he has a bow equipped.
This is always the case with monks. Their hands can be tied together behind their backs and they can still threaten adjacent squares with kicks, headbutts, etc.
The ability makes a fair bit of sense. Let's break it down using actual math from a Zen archer.
These are using stats and gear from my level 7 Zen archer and just assuming a higher attack bonus taken directly from a level 9 monk.
Level 9
Assume a +4 Strength Modifier (Magic items and such)
Assume a +5 Wisdom Modifier (Magic items and such)
Damage calculation:
Composite long bow (+4 Strength Bonus)
Magic +2 Long bow
Weapon Specialization (+2)
Point Blank Shot (+1)
Deadly Aim.(Power Attack Equivalent) (+4)
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Total Bow Damage = 1d8 +13
Fist damage = 1d10 +4
Accuracy using Bow vs Fist
+5 Wisdom
+6 Attack bonus
+1 Point blank shot
+2 Magic weapon
+1 Weapon Focus
-2 for Deadly Aim
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Total Bow Accuracy = +13
Total Fist Accuracy = +10 (attack bonus +6 Strength +4)
These totals are without using Ki and they are also tallied under the assumption that the Zen Archer in question will not have both Deadly Aim and Power Attack.
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combine with combat patrol for more fun:
Combat Patrol (Combat)
You range across the battlefield, dealing with threats wherever they arise.
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Mobility, base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you may set up a combat patrol, increasing your threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus. Until the beginning of your next turn, you may make attacks of opportunity against any opponent in this threatened area that provokes attacks of opportunity. You may move as part of these attacks, provided your total movement before your next turn does not exceed your speed. Any movement you make provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
The monk still threatens squares he could reach with unarmed strikes,This indicates that the monk is threatening any square he threatens with an unarmed strike. So this means that a medium monk with normal-sized arms can only threaten the area immediately adjacent to him. (Enlarge person might be useful!)
That is the key. Large and larger (tiny and smaller) have different threatening distances.
Is it really so bad if it does threaten with a bow's range? You're still only getting one attack per round unless you take Combat Reflexes, and even then unless you've really pumped your dex you're just getting three or four.
It is one of the stronger abilities, but is it really gamebreaking at level nine?
I'm honestly curious here, I rarely play up to that level and have been considering a Zen Archer for my next level one character.
The Zen Archer is never getting Improved Snap Shot, however. Because literally wasting* feats on Rapid Shot and Snap Shot as pre-reqs is ridiculous. And you only provoke once per move action no matter how many threatened spaces you move through. And the main way to abuse such massive reach, the Pin Down feat, requires 11 Fighter levels. So no, it actually wouldn't be so bad.
Of course, I've gotten accustomed to playing with 3E splats that expand reach and seeing dudes with Spiked Chains (the good, 3E, version) getting enlarged and threatening like a 50 ft radius w/ tripping feats. So I'm kinda numbed towards the prospect of absurdly long reach.
*While you may sometimes see certain feats like Skill Focus refered to as a "waste", at least they give some mechanical benefit. Snap Shot and Rapid Shot, for a Zen Archery literally do absolutely nothing.
I removed a post. Do no use that word that way.
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Reflexive Shot (Ex): At 9th level, a zen archer can make attacks of opportunity with arrows from his bow. The monk still threatens squares he could reach with unarmed strikes, and can still only make one attack of opportunity per round (unless he has Combat Reflexes). This ability replaces improved evasion.
See I read this different but it is poorly written so seems to send mixed messages. As written it effectively says that you get one benefit, from this 9th lvl ability, that allows you to make AOO with your bow. It doesn't define a range and this is what opens the confusion. Now keep in mind that this is a high level feat replacing improved evasion. This should mean that we should compare it with a high benefit.
A totally separate item is the second line that is only reminding you that you still have the ability to threaten utilizing your unarmed strike at your natural reach and that you only get one AOO unless you have a the necessary feats. This line does not imply that your AOO reach is only the reach of your unarmed attack. Most prominently evident from the use of "The monk still" opening to the sentence. I believe this was put in to let you know that you had two options for damage sources when it got down to face to face combatants.
Board topics.. is it a game breaker... no its about 50/50.. as you rarely get to utilize the full range of your bow in adventures as most maps or box text puts everyone in a fixed area. You will get that one nice mod that you can really just open up with and say.. I shot his through the crowd of people between he and I by spending some Ki. Broken is something that impacts your game at almost every session and not once in a blue moon.
I would really like a ruling however and the thread has been online long enough I think.
It's really awesome for Jason to answer like that, but I am really confused as to how it got to that point.
The ability flat out says:
"The monk still threatens squares he could reach with unarmed strikes, and can still only make one attack of opportunity per round (unless he has Combat Reflexes)."
How is that unclear? You threaten the squares you can reach with your unarmed strikes, except you can make AoOs with your bow instead. It's kind of plainly right there. The ability changes what you can make AoOs with, but not what area you threaten.
