Could anyone explain this to me?
It doesn't make any sense to me... What does personality have to do with using magic devices? Wouldn't intelligence or maybe wisdom be the obvious choice?
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Don't try to seek sense in D&D rules, or you will lose sanity somewhere between falling damage rules and casting lightinig bolts underwater.
In other words: Game Balance. Charisma is enough of a dump stat, let's not take away the few things that run off it.
Also, UMD is a usually a Sorcerer/Bard skill, and they run off Cha, so it helps them be less MAD.
Silver Crescent Publishing
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Could anyone explain this to me?
It doesn't make any sense to me... What does personality have to do with using magic devices? Wouldn't intelligence or maybe wisdom be the obvious choice?
I believe it is based on the same principle as Charisma being the spell-related ability score for Sorcerers.
Also, UMD is a usually a Sorcerer/Bard skill, and they run off Cha, so it helps them be less MAD.
I believe it is based on the same principle as Charisma being the spell-related ability score for Sorcerers.
What about Rogues (and Alchemists and Witches)? I thought UMD was primarily made for them. I also vaguely remember they had something similar in AD&D... (although I'm not sure)
here's my explanation.
most leaders have high charisma, and thus have a strong force of personality, a strong forceful personality makes it easier to manipulate the item with your heightened confidence as a figure who was less charismatic may possibly stutter when trying to say the command word and thus fail to get the proper pronunciation. it's all about confidence. think of a low charisma as shy, potentially emo and possibly lacking confidence or self esteem. a high charisma is like having a higher confidence and self esteem that helps you get better social skills faster and use magic items more easily.
here's my explanation.
most leaders have high charisma, and thus have a strong force of personality, a strong forceful personality makes it easier to manipulate the item with your heightened confidence as a figure who was less charismatic may possibly stutter when trying to say the command word and thus fail to get the proper pronunciation. it's all about confidence. think of a low charisma as shy, potentially emo and possibly lacking confidence or self esteem. a high charisma is like having a higher confidence and self esteem that helps you get better social skills faster and use magic items more easily.
LOL, yeah when I tried rationalizing it, I thought of something along the same lines:
The PC needs a strong force of personality to convince the magic item to work for him, just like anybody else, don't worry about the lack of sentience...Or, another explanation might be, that the PC is convincing friend, foe and himself (since the item loses charges) that the item actually works and is helping or harming them...
Who said the magic isn't aware? Just because it doesn't have an Ego score doesn't mean that it's a mechanical device that can only do exactly what its gears let it do.
Anyway, the reason it's a Charisma skill is that you're forcing your will on magic itself. By all rights, a Fighter should not be able to use a wand. He doesn't have the inherent mojo that makes it work. With enough force of will and experience wrangling wands, though, he can trick or force the magic into working for him.
Who said the magic isn't aware? Just because it doesn't have an Ego score doesn't mean that it's a mechanical device that can only do exactly what its gears let it do.
Anyway, the reason it's a Charisma skill is that you're forcing your will on magic itself. By all rights, a Fighter should not be able to use a wand. He doesn't have the inherent mojo that makes it work. With enough force of will and experience wrangling wands, though, he can trick or force the magic into working for him.
But isn't the force of will something that is based on wisdom?
Also if it's about forcing or will on magic, wouldn't all magic casting classes have to have charisma as primary skill?
Don't try to seek sense in D&D rules, or you will lose sanity somewhere between falling damage rules and casting lightinig bolts underwater.
In other words: Game Balance. Charisma is enough of a dump stat, let's not take away the few things that run off it.
Also, UMD is a usually a Sorcerer/Bard skill, and they run off Cha, so it helps them be less MAD.
With 3rd Edition someone decided the following:
Divine Magic - WisdomArcane Magic for Wizards/People that have studied magic - Intelligence
Magic by natural means - Charisma (monsters, sorcerers, use magic device)
With UMD you let the natural magic of the world and items flow, you don't have a clue about how magic and artifacts really work, that only happens when you study to become a wizard or a cleric. What has it to do with Charisma is beyond me.
Furthermore, you can use both Arcane and Divine devices with UMD, each one would require a different Ability Score. King Solomon would choose Charisma too!
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But isn't the force of will something that is based on wisdom?Who said the magic isn't aware? Just because it doesn't have an Ego score doesn't mean that it's a mechanical device that can only do exactly what its gears let it do.
Anyway, the reason it's a Charisma skill is that you're forcing your will on magic itself. By all rights, a Fighter should not be able to use a wand. He doesn't have the inherent mojo that makes it work. With enough force of will and experience wrangling wands, though, he can trick or force the magic into working for him.
Let's be practical for a second here.
1) You can houserule it to run off Wisdom. No problem.
2) You can try to convince devs that it should be Wisdom. Fat chance, given how deep does UMD sit in the system and existing statblocks.
3) You can try to convince us that it should be Wisdom. Fat chance, for obvious reasons.
Magic by natural means - Charisma (monsters, sorcerers, use magic device)
With UMD you let the natural magic of the world and items flow, you don't have a clue about how magic and artifacts really work, that only happens when you study to become a wizard or a cleric. What has it to do with Charisma is beyond me.
Furthermore, you can use both Arcane and Divine devices with UMD, each one would require a different Ability Score. King Solomon would choose Charisma too!
The thing is however, that magic items aren't natural at all. In fact the overwhelming majority of them where crafted with an intelligence based skill (Spellcraft or Craft). Since this goes for arcane AND divine items, I don't see why using them wouldn't be also based on intelligence.
As for King Salomon: I suspect he might have based it on Constitution...
But isn't the force of will something that is based on wisdom?
Nope, Charisma.
Also if it's about forcing or will on magic, wouldn't all magic casting classes have to have charisma as primary skill?
Nope. Not all classes do magic by brute force. Clerics and Druids are granted their magic by an external force. Wizards learn their magic through logic and ritualization. Sorcerers and Oracles, on the other hand, impose their will on the magic within them and around them to make stuff happen.
Nope, Charisma.
But wouldn't the will save then be based on charisma?
EDIT: I think the answer is, that one has to distinguish between the internal force of will and forcing one's will on someone/something else.
Nope. Not all classes do magic by brute force. Clerics and Druids are granted their magic by an external force. Wizards learn their magic through logic and ritualization. Sorcerers and Oracles, on the other hand, impose their will on the magic within them and around them to make stuff happen.
Hmm... This does make sense in a way...
"Force of will" isn't quite right. "Force of personality" makes more sense.
Wisdom is mainly a "resistance" ability - you do not buckle under mental onslaught.
Charisma is a "power" ability - you impose your will upon others.
But wouldn't the will save then be based on charisma?
EDIT: I think the answer is, that one has to distinguish between the internal force of will and forcing one's will on someone/something else.
Personally I think Will should be based on Charisma, yes, or at least 4E style Wisdom or Charisma. But anyway, it was the forcing your will on something else that I was referring to. I don't consider the ability to resist temptation to be a "force of will" thing, although I admit I'm probably in a small minority for that.
Well anyway, I think there should be the ability to choose between forcing the item's magic to work with charisma and finding out how it works with intelligence.
Weren't the instances in the past, where for certain skills you had the choice between two attributes?
EDIT: In fact I would go as far as to base it on intelligence for some uses (like activation or emulating class features) and charisma for others (like faking alignement).
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I don't see how it could be anything but CHA based on how we define Charisma in the d20 editions.
Charisma is, among other things, your Gnosis. Bards and Sorcerers use CHA to cast spells.
Use Magic Device was designed for Bards First and then Sorcerers. Rogues with UMD is more an afterthought that could easily be gotten rid of. I think it's more for a party where no one wants to be a caster so the Rogue gets UMD. I don't like Rogues with UMD.
Classes in the APG with UMD, uh, came waaaaay later. Um... hello.
I don't see how it could be anything but CHA based on how we define Charisma in the d20 editions.
Charisma is, among other things, your Gnosis. Bards and Sorcerers use CHA to cast spells.
Use Magic Device was designed for Bards First and then Sorcerers. Rogues with UMD is more an afterthought that could easily be gotten rid of. I think it's more for a party where no one wants to be a caster so the Rogue gets UMD. I don't like Rogues with UMD.
Classes in the APG with UMD, uh, came waaaaay later. Um... hello.
According to Jason Ellis 350's post (and my memories of AD&D), it was first developed for Bards and Rogues and NOT Sorcerers (they didn't even exist AFAIK)
EDIT: As for Gnosis (ie "insight into the infinite, divine and uncreated in all and above all", via Wikipedia), that is definitely what wisdom represents (which is also why its the primary skill for clerics).
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"Force of will" isn't quite right. "Force of personality" makes more sense.
Wisdom is mainly a "resistance" ability - you do not buckle under mental onslaught.
Charisma is a "power" ability - you impose your will upon others.
I'd also say that Charisma is kinda a social Aikido i.e your ability to adjust to different situations on a semi concious level. Adjusting to think and unconscouisly emulate is Charisma based.
This means the ability to emulate a LE sword or 'think' Wizard i.e. 'bluff' the magic. Here is a good example of what I think is required for use magical device.
All the Best,
Kerney
it really should be either intellegence or wisdom.
I think it is because most magic item have a weakness for flattery.
Person using Use Magic Device "What a nice handle you have Wand of lightning bolts"
Wand of Lightning Bolts "oh this old thing"
Person using Use Magic Device "had do you mind discharging at that dragon, and then maybe we could get some Lunch or something"
Wand of lightning Bolts "no problem" discharges Kills said dragon "So I was thinking we could do Indian tonight"
Person using Use Magic Device "What I am looting here, shut up"
Wand Of lightning Bolts "But I thought we had something here"
Person using Use Magic Device "WoW a new wand"
Wand of lightning Bolts sobs uncontrollably
Kind of sad really
All rationalizations have a chance but...
There are three mental stats.
Int - arcane - cant put it there.
Wis - divine - can't put it there.
Char - hmmm
I see it as purely a balance issue. Considering how many magical items are involved it had to be on a different stat. Besides, in 1st & 2nd ed. charisma could be such a dump stat.
S
Going back to the balance issue, which seems to be the only reason for basing UMD on charisma, I would even argue that this unbalances UMD in the opposite direction. Of the 6 classes that have UMD as a class skill (I'm taking "class skill" as an indicator that the class needs/relies on UMD), 3 have charisma as their primary attribute (Bard, Sorcerer and Summoner) and 3 are at least partially based on intelligence (Rogue as it's main secondary or shared primary ability, Alchemist and Witch). Note that except for dexterity, no other abilities are relevant for these 6 classes.
This would make it perfectly balanced to have the player choose which of the two abilities he is going to base UMD on.
Another balanced alternative would be to base UMD on both abilities, depending on the specific actions taken with it:
- Intelligence for 'Activate Blindly', 'Decipher a Written Spell', 'Emulate a Class Feature', 'Use a Scroll' and 'Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item'.
- Charisma for 'Emulate an Ability Score', 'Emulate an Alignment' and 'Emulate a Race'.
I separated the different tasks depending on whether they are more knowledge-based or more intuition-based.
Well anyway, I think there should be the ability to choose between forcing the item's magic to work with charisma and finding out how it works with intelligence.
That's not how skills work in Pathfinder. If you want to do that, you should do it right. Have alternate abilities for more or less any skill (Climb with dex, Disable Device with int, Intimidate with str...)
I see it as purely a balance issue.
I see it purely as a "this is the only way it makes sense for this game" issue.
Intelligence is memory, knowledge and comprehension/grasp. Intelligent characters will understand things faster, and will be able to understand more complex things. They can also memorise things faster, and remember them longer (and more of it).
Wizards use intelligence for their magic because it's all about learning things. You need to understand those spells, and memorise them. And the better you understand the magic, the more effective it is.
All intelligence-based skills are skills that let you understand and remember things.
Wisdom is perception, as well as force of will, resolve, dedication. Wise characters will notice things easier, will be harder to influence mentally (whether through magic, fear, threats or honeyed words), and will have greater dedication to a cause.
Clerics and most other divine casters use wisdom for their magic because they are granted that magic by a higher power. The more dedicated to the power's cause, the stronger the conduit the priest uses to channel this divine power.
Wisdom-based skills are skills that let you notice things and/or dedicate yourself to something.
Charisma is manipulating others, adjusting their opinion and actions. Whether with convincing lies, honeyed words, or effective threats, you make other people act like you want them to act.
Charisma is the key ability for spontaneous and innate magic because this magic doesn't come from rote memorisation of lore or dedication to something greater than yourself. It's your own power, and depends on how well you can affect others with your innate abilities.
Charisma-based skills are skills that let you manipulate others. Bluff makes them believe you when they should know better, Diplomacy convinces them that you are sincere even if they thought you weren't.
And Use Magic Device fits right in: You're not a spellcaster, or at least not one that should be able to use the item. The item should not work for you. But you impose your will on magic and convince it to work for you.
Awesome! Another dex to damage thread!
I want ALL attributes to damage! Strength makes me hit harder, dexterity grants me accuracy, constitution lets me keep on hitting time and again, intelligence tells me where to hit, wisdom gives me the right conviction to keep hidding, and charisma convinces the guy to die already.
Everyone with a different opinion is just wrong, this is a fact! :P
And Use Magic Device fits right in: You're not a spellcaster, or at least not one that should be able to use the item. The item should not work for you. But you impose your will on magic and convince it to work for you.
I perfectly agree with everything except the above sentence. Look at the specific tasks that make up UMD.
The character can emulate a class feature, this is a class specific skill that a character, that actually has this feature, learned at one time. While using UMD the character approximates this skill through a rough knowledge about it.EDIT: Removed bad example.
This is why in my post above I separated the different tasks into intelligence- and charisma-based ones.
I think the separating factor between intelligence- and charisma-based tasks, is the question of how a character that meets the requirements got them himself. Either he learned them himself (intelligence-based: activation methods, magic scripts, class features, scroll and trigger-item knowledge) or he acquired them in a way he didn't have any influence over such as birth and his upbringing as a child (charisma-based: abilities, alignment and race).
I think the charisma element in UMD is not about forcing magic in general to follow your will, its duping the specific elements in a spell that check for these non-learned requirements mentioned above. For example you mentally emulate what it "feels like" (ie the mindset) to be an elf or lawful evil. The character is able to do this because of his prior social experience.
You are right, that was a bad example. However it doesn't change the fact that using a scroll to cast a spell is a (class specific) skill that is acquired through learning.
Your comparisons are good. However in the mental world the "hit-points" would depend on dexterity (ie intelligence), since they are the accumulated knowledge.
And Use Magic Device fits right in: You're not a spellcaster, or at least not one that should be able to use the item. The item should not work for you. But you impose your will on magic and convince it to work for you.I perfectly agree with everything except the above sentence. Look at the specific tasks that make up UMD.
The character can emulate a class feature, this is a class specific skill that a character, that actually has this feature, learned at one time. While using UMD the character approximates this skill through a rough knowledge about it.
Not really. You force the item to work even though you don't have the feature. Or the alignment that is needed. Or the race. Nothing about a rough knowledge of class abilities. Plus, "rough knowledge" doesn't scream "high intelligence" to me. It screams "everyone knows this stuff".
You can even activate something blindly, without knowing what you need for it to work. That's the opposite of knowledge.
Either he learned them himself (intelligence-based: activation methods, magic scripts, class features, scroll and trigger-item knowledge)
This would mean that every spellcaster needs intelligence - a cleric can have int 8 and still use all that stuff, including his most powerful magic. A sorcerer can use 9th-level sor/wiz spells even if he's dumb as wood.
Knowledge about triggers and the like are basic information, not something you have to learn with any intelligence-based skill or ability.
Plus, unless you activate blindly (which, as I said above, is using the opposite of knowledge), you must have command words and the like ready before you can use UMD. Nothing to do with the skill at all.
I always think of mental stat's like this - and it really helps avoid arguments about what stey do
Wisdom - "Mental constitution" - Clerics use it because it represents their ability to maintain their faith, and also maintain the flow of divine energy through a moral brain from their spellcasting
Int - "Mental dexterity" - Wizards use it to make the mental leaps and twists of logic that arcane magic requires. Also, i like to think that Arcane magic requires quick precise calclulations (Example: ok, Virgo is in Libra, meaning to cast fireball i need to make the sign of Horus rather than the sign of Ra)
Charisma - "Mental strength" - representing the force behind your personality and the like. that is why Bards and Sorcerors use it - they are directly imposing their wills on the world arround them.
Remember, many games lack a "Wisdom" stat - and have willpower instead. however, in D&D and spin-offs, the traditional willpower stat is split into wisdom and charisma
I might be prejudiced by my knowledge of WoD, but for me, both Int and Cha are sorts of power - Int is mental power, Cha is social power.
WoD has 9 attributes - 3 Physical, 3 Mental, 3 Social. And each category has 1 Power, 1 Finesse and 1 Resistance attribute.
Physical:
Strength (Power) - Pretty much as in Pathfinder
Dexterity (Finesse) - Pretty much as in Pathfinder
Stamina (Resistance) - Pretty much as Con in Pathfinder
Mental:
Intelligence (Power) - Pretty much as in Pathfinder
Wits (Finesse) - The ability to "think on your feet". Thinking fast and coming up with things. Can be used for fast-talking, and is part of perception rolls
Resolve (Resistance) - The willpower part. Withstand supernatural mental assault. Also used as mental stamina (great when you have to read a big, boring book for an exam)
Social:
Presence (Power) - The ability to mentally influence others by sheer charisma. You don't have to say anything, you just have to be there and let your aura do your work - and when you use this to influence with words, the actual words don't really matter, only the tone of your voice.
Manipulation (Finesse) - The ability to influence others with the right words.
Composure (Resistance) - The ability to keep your cool in the face of aggravation or oppression. Helps you not to flip out and hit the guy who's right in your face, calling you names and shouting, and to not ruin your trousers when he suddenly grows hair all over and gets the face and claws of a wolf, or stuff like that.
Also note that skills aren't necessarily tied to specific skill there - intimidate, for example, can be used with lots of things - dexterity if you show him how you can shoot that mannequin right into its crotch, strength to bend/break something that looks tougher than his arm, presence for stares, wits to tell him stuff you could do with him, and so on.
Not really. You force the item to work even though you don't have the feature. Or the alignment that is needed. Or the race. Nothing about a rough knowledge of class abilities. Plus, "rough knowledge" doesn't scream "high intelligence" to me. It screams "everyone knows this stuff".
"Rough knowledge" is in between common(=no specific) knowledge and perfect knowledge.
You can even activate something blindly, without knowing what you need for it to work. That's the opposite of knowledge.
Activating blindly means without the EXACT motions and words (ie perfect knowledge). You still need SOME APPROXIMATE ones to make it work (ie rough knowledge). If, as you say, activation works by forcing your will onto the item's magic, you would not need any motions or words, just a thought.
This would mean that every spellcaster needs intelligence - a cleric can have int 8 and still use all that stuff, including his most powerful magic. A sorcerer can use 9th-level sor/wiz spells even if he's dumb as wood.
An intelligence score of 8 definitively isn't brilliant, but it is smart enough by far to learn class specific skills (ie things you absolutely need to survive in your calling, things you repeat very often). Contrast this to the minimum intelligence score of 3 needed to understand a spoken language.
Knowledge about triggers and the like are basic information, not something you have to learn with any intelligence-based skill or ability.
Plus, unless you activate blindly (which, as I said above, is using the opposite of knowledge), you must have command words and the like ready before you can use UMD. Nothing to do with the skill at all.
Knowledge about triggers is very diverse and the depth of this knowledge varies immensely (see the answer to your first quote). The only common knowledge is that there ARE triggers. Less common is that they differ for all the myriad of different trigger items. Even less common is the systematic behind the differences between triggers for different items. And the least common knowledge is obviously the exact trigger for a specific item.
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Going back to the balance issue, which seems to be the only reason for basing UMD on charisma, I would even argue that this unbalances UMD in the opposite direction. Of the 6 classes that have UMD as a class skill (I'm taking "class skill" as an indicator that the class needs/relies on UMD), 3 have charisma as their primary attribute (Bard, Sorcerer and Summoner) and 3 are at least partially based on intelligence (Rogue as it's main secondary or shared primary ability, Alchemist and Witch). Note that except for dexterity, no other abilities are relevant for these 6 classes.
However, UMD precedes the APG by years. If you look at who had it as class skills originally - bard, rogue, sorcerer - Charisma is the primary attribute for UMD using classes.
However, UMD precedes the APG by years. If you look at who had it as class skills originally - bard, rogue, sorcerer - Charisma is the primary attribute for UMD using classes.
Technically charisma is primary only for two of the three (also the precursor of UMD was only for Bards and Rogues, which makes it 1:1), but that's not the issue.
I don't really care how it was in the past. We're talking about the Pathfinder RPG as it is NOW. And that means that there are 6 classes that have it as class skill and thus (supposedly) depend on it. Of these six, three have an unfair advantage. That's all.
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To the OP:
It seems like you are trying to impose some sort of realistic, logical reason why CHA is used. Stop trying. :)
Its the same reason characters and monsters have no "facing" on a battlemap, and a small longspear has the same reach as a medium longspear, the answer is because its a game mechanic that seems to be balanced and helps the game overall play better.
The rationale for CHA does seem to stem from way back in 3.x days, helping to balance the sorcerer/bard classes with the WIS and INT casters and their ability sets.
From a game balance perspective-
Look at it this way- it makes the INT casters (wiz, witch) actually have to bother with a second ability score, since they really only have 1 score to focus on. Clerics are already focused on this score for Channel energy abilities. Sorcerers, bards, oracles, paladins, and summoners all use CHA. The only casting class that would be really hard pressed to emphasize CHA is most of the druid builds, and since most druid players that I have met use wildshape extensively, its usually less of an issue. Rangers also sort of get the short end of the stick here, since that stat isn't really used for much for them, but frankly I don't know many lower or med level rangers using UMD, unless they planned on it from inception in the design of their party. Fighters, rogues, or other melees really shouldn't bother with UMD unless its part of their character design as well, in which case, they can take the Dangerously curious trait, and plan on boosting their CHA a tad to support this build.
From this perspective it looks like picking any other stat, is actually penalizing a lot more classes to help out one or two. I suppose if you are those one or two, that might bother you ... :)
@redcelt32:
I disagree with you on pretty much every point.
Facing and small vs medium weapons' reach are problems that would be really hard to change and any changes would make the game very complicated, bogging down everything. In the case of UMD, I'm just talking about changing the ability some of it's tasks are based on.
INT casters definitely don't just focus on 1 stat, they even have to chose between DEX and CON for a secondary. Also it's not just druids and rangers. Rogues have a huge amount of their class features depending directly on INT (making it their definitive secondary ability) and alchemists have it doubly bad since they don't even count as a caster class.
From my perspective that makes it pretty much even. Hence my proposal to split UMD between INT and CHA. (Never mind that it just makes way more sense.)
Personally I always liked UMD using cha as it's stat. I picture it like bluff - but you are lying to the universe in general - fooling it into believing that you are the right class/level/alignment to use this item.
I like my fantasy worlds pagan and full of life. Nothing happens by accident... The world is living and breathing and gravity itself can be fooled if you are persuasive enough.
Of the 3 Cha based casters, 2 are limited to 6 level spells at the maximum. The sorcerer and the bard also have a limited list of spells they can know on top of it. The summoner was nerfed to the point of me refusing to bother playing one when it was decided that they, and they alone suffer from pet OR summon, so I can't really answer much about them.
The witch, on the other hand has methods of expanding the spells known list, either from learning from another witch, or learning from a scroll, 2 things neither a bard or sorcerer can ever do.
The sorcerer and bard sacrifice an expansive spell list and easy learning of new spells for freedom of choice (ie they don't have to prepare in advance). This, per se, has nothing to do with UMD.
UMD is important to the classes that have it as a class skill. Sorcerers, bards, rogues, summoners, alchemists and witches all have UMD as a class skill, which means it should be EQUALLY important to all of them.
The alchemist and rogue aren't even spellcasters, so they really shouldn't be as good at using a skill as someone who is, and by trying to use intelligence as the base for UMD, this is what can occur. Personally, I think enabling a rogue to surpass a bard at the use of UMD is a mistake, but that is just me.
I would say that especially since the alchemist and rogue are not spellcasters, but still have casting capabilities (and thus roles), they should be able to use UMD.
And on a related note, do you feel that wizards have an unfair advantage regarding the use of knowledge skills over classes that don't use intelligence as the primary stat?
Well, I can tell you that I don't think knowledge skills are anywhere near as important as UMD. I would put them on the same level as all the social skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise and Intimidate), where sorcerers and bards have the advantage.