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give occupation and 2 traits imho. it basically lets everyone have a few extra permanent class skills. also magic traits shouldnt be allowed
While I do agree that magic (and Faith) traits shouldn't be allowed, I'd say that the only issue with giving 2+occupation is that either you are no longer "core" by giving two (if occupations are traits), or occupations are not traits, which they sort of scream out that they are.
I do like the thought of doing 2+occupation though. I don't want it conceived as otherwise. I'm just trying to figure out a way to rationalize it by the PF rules.
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Update:
Current Strong Hero version is up.
Linkless update:
- 1. d10, Full BAB, 4+Int Skill Ranks (added intimidate)
- 2.Extreme Effort Talent Tree is beefier. Bonus is added to intimidate checks. Eventually, it is also added to CMB and CMD.
- 3.Ignore Hardness Talent Tree has a greater progression and may be used in strength checks to break objects (such as handcuffs). Progression is now +2, +3, +5, as opposed to +2, +2, +2.
- 4. Melee Smash Talent Tree has a greater progression: +1, +2, +2, as opposed to +1, +1, +1. Eventually, all melee weapons are treated as bring held in both hands for the purpose of determining Str bonus to damage.
Synopsis: Guns are still the number one mundane killer of people in PF Modern, but God help you if a Strong Hero gets anywhere near you, because he will eat you for dinner. Quick Math: Strong hero with 14 STR and the full melee smash talent tree using a longsword: 1d8+8... without any feats. Ouch.
Also, if all goes well, tomorrow night I'll hit Fast Hero. I doubt there will be a lot of changes done to it, as it kind of sets the standard.
Also Also Wik: I've finished the first Iconic! Dwarven Tough Hero Warrant Officer Brigs of Her Majesty's SAS. In all honesty, I was going to make him a marine or something, but since he's a Dwarf, he's gotta have a Scottish Brogue, and that means serving in Her Majesty's Army.
Occupations aren't really talents in the PFRPG sense. They are more like upfront limited archetypes. You are modifying starting feats and class skills for the most part.
I still don't see the value in Ignore Harness, much of what you would use it for gets done better with explosives IMO.
Likewise I still think Melée smash should be come Smash and apply to any weapon that uses strength bonus for damage. That includes thrown weapons and possibly some kinds of bows or crossbows (with a heavier draw). As you won't see many bows this keeps the Strong Hero's effective combat range at Melée to 50 or so feet tops, with quickly deminishing returns on thrown items as distance increases.
There is more to combat manuvers then Grappling. Bull Rush, Triping, Disarming, Sundering (key to using ignore harness), Drag, Reposition.
Strong hero gets into the enemies cover and bumps them out (bull rush, drag, repositon) so the Fast (and rest of he team) have clear shots.
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Occupations aren't really talents in the PFRPG sense. They are more like upfront limited archetypes. You are modifying starting feats and class skills for the most part.
I still don't see the value in Ignore Harness, much of what you would use it for gets done better with explosives IMO.
Likewise I still think Melée smash should be come Smash and apply to any weapon that uses strength bonus for damage. That includes thrown weapons and possibly some kinds of bows or crossbows (with a heavier draw). As you won't see many bows this keeps the Strong Hero's effective combat range at Melée to 50 or so feet tops, with quickly deminishing returns on thrown items as distance increases.
There is more to combat manuvers then Grappling. Bull Rush, Triping, Disarming, Sundering (key to using ignore harness), Drag, Reposition.
Strong hero gets into the enemies cover and bumps them out (bull rush, drag, repositon) so the Fast (and rest of he team) have clear shots.
That's pretty fair, regarding occupations. I didn't look at it that way. Good, maybe we can do as Name Violation suggested then.
I admit that ignore hardness, while beefier, isn't much better. I just don't know what to do with it right now.
I could see the logic in applying the bonus damage to thrown weapons, but think that bows and crossbows might be taking it a bit far. I only say this because while there are composite bows, they still have a set pull. You can't pull a STR 14 strength bow with your own 16 STR and get a +3 bonus. It stays at +2. The same is even more true for crossbows. I could see treating your STR as x points higher for purposes of using composite bows, but that's about it. I would keep the "treated as two handed" part strictly with melee weapons though.
On the wiki page, I elaborate on the Extreme Effort tie in to CMB CMD. Basically, at the second tier, you get limited bonuses (only to maintaining and resisting grapples). However, at the third tier, you get the bonus applied in all circumstances to CMB and CMD. It was a balancing out act and it made going for the third tier talent more worthwhile. So, that means that once you've taken all three, combat maneuver all you want. But, even if you don't want to take the third tier item, you still get some benefit (think bear hugs and super flexing).
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FINALLY added the fast hero to the wiki. Here is an abbreviation of the changes:
1. Defense taken two steps down. This only reduces the final defense by 1 pt, but also means that fast heroes start out with a +2 instead of a +3.
2. Reduced reputation by one step. Overall reputation bonus is unchanged. There's just one more level of being at +0.
To be done:
Will probably add Agile Maneuvers, Acrobatic Steps, and Fleet to the bonus feat list.
By all means, feel free to suggest other feats to be added to any of the classes bonus feats list.
I decided to remove the starting feat: Simple Weapons Proficiency from the base classes and just give them proficiency in all simple weapons as a class ability. It cleans it up just slightly without changing class itself.
To Name Violation: Thanks for correcting that chart error on the strong hero.
Finally: Suggesting adding as bonus feat options to Strong Hero the Improvised Weapons options. I can totally see a strong hero (effectively) bashing an individual with a barstool.
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Put up Strong Hero. For your consideration:
Skills: Remove [Climb or Drive] and Ride. Seriously, how is ride justified? If all are kept, suggest reducing skill ranks to 2+Int. Since it's PF, cross class isn't crippling, and this guy's job isn't handyman, it's survivor.
BAB: 3/4
Saves: Strong Fort, Ref. Survivability is the name of the game for this guy.
Defense bonus: up 1 step
Rep bonus: down one step with fast hero.
Weapons and Armor:
Proficient with simple weapons and light armor.
Unbreakable Talent Tree:
Mostly edits to take into account the V/W Point system. However, I did change second wind to give him his con score in VP as opposed to his con modifier. I know that's potent for the first two levels, but after that, it tapers off quite fast and becomes an otherwise useless trait. The only other way I could see doing it would be to change it so that it gives the Con Mod in WP, and also removes the fatigued condition.
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The Smart Hero is up! Wow. I feel like I'm actually moving forward. That's good.
Things updated:
Skill Ranks: 8+Int Modifier
Gave smart hero a step up on the defense track. Tell me if it seems decent.
Modified slightly the Linguist Talent tree.
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i wouldnt give the tough hero a good reflex save like you did. it takes away the one of the only things fast heroes have going for them.
also I'd give fast heroes the extra point of ac bonus at 1st, just because they dont have anything else really goin for them. They shouldnt have the same ac bonus as a smart. it should be a touch better
fast heroes are starting to look crappy, when they used to be the "best" base class.
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NameViolation and I have come to a sort of crossroads. I do not know his qualifications, but I'm sure they are AT LEAST equal to my own on the matter of making rules decisions. However, that is an issue, because we could go around in circles over very small details that both of us have very reasonable, but conflicting positions on. Thus, since this whole conversion project is for you, the community at large, I'd like your take on the following:
Saves:
Old
Strong: High Fort
Fast: High Ref
Tough: High Fort
Smart: High Will
Dedicated: High Fort and High Will
Charismatic: High Fort and High Ref
My proposal:
Strong: High Fort
Fast: High Ref
Tough: High Fort and High Ref
Smart: High Will
Dedicated: High Fort High Will
Charismatic: High Ref High Will
I would submit that even though it takes the Fast Hero's thunder a bit by spreading out high reflex saves, all the other benefits of the classes still balance out nicely and still encourage multi-classing.
Name would say (to the best of my knowledge) that the Fast Hero's monopoly on High Ref is one of the strongest points of the class and that 1) Spreading it would reduce the power balance of the class and 2) Creating another dual save class would reduce the desire to multi-class.
Did I get that right, Name?
I would like to make it clear that I am not saying he is wrong, simply that I don't agree. I could very well be at fault. If more of you agree with him, then we'll do it that way. I respect his opinion and I respect yours, which is why I am not making sweeping decisions. It's not for me to make. I merely toss out my ideas and type up the wiki.
PS. Name, you're right about the AC. With all the mods going on with the other classes, the fast should keep the higher step AC. What do you think of lowering the lvl 10 one though, since that most likely would never affect multi-classing, and at that point, she's already gaining a significant AC bonus from her dex, which she focused on (else why be "fast"?) That would make the starting AC 3 again, but the final would be 7, as apposed to 8. It'd be one step up from what's on the wiki now.
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yeah, you got my views right
and i don't think lowering the level 10 ac is a big deal, besides most people don't take base classes to 10 anyway
Cool. I wanted to make sure I wan't misrepresenting you. I don't want to come across as an a$$hat. My wife said it sounded a bit *feminine cleansing tool*-y and I certainly didn't want that.
I want to make it clear that I truly to appreciate and respect your views, even when I don't agree with them, and thus have tried to provide them in the best manner.*
*Sorry. Been drinking far more than I ought to (I have a really good excuse). I acknowledge that. I apologize for any poor grammar. Crappy day IRL, so please, be patient with me.
On traits and Occupations. I think ya should Just scrap occupations (and the wealth system for that matter) and have the character pick 2 or 3 traits to represent their former occupation.
anyway
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On traits and Occupations. I think ya should Just scrap occupations (and the wealth system for that matter) and have the character pick 2 or 3 traits to represent their former occupation.
anyway
Hey, Cliff, thanks for your feedback!
While we may do a slight bit of retooling (and are in fact discussing such) in regards to how traits relate to occupations, it would be too big a stretch to modify all the traits to make them Modern.
As well, we'll most likely keep the wealth system (with retooling) as it's a huge part of what makes Modern what it is. Plus, there's not really any good fall back currency system. CP-PP wouldn't work because in America we use the dollar, while in the UK, they use the pound. Wealth is the best way to take into account all the world currencies, stock, and the like. It's more abstract, but for such a complex monetary system, it needs to be. The only other system I could see using is the Credits system (from Star Wars), but that only works if you have a unified currency, which the modern world does not. This also ties back into the traits/occupations deal as since we're keeping Wealth, retooling the traits to offer wealth bonuses is too big a task. As well, many of the traits wouldn't make sense.
What we'll probably do is keep the 2 traits character creation rule, as traits, for the most part, deal with the character's personality. Then, we'll have the character choose an occupation to show what they did with their life. Pathfinder, falling into the medieval high fantasy genre assumes universal apprenticeships. Today's world, however, is far more varied and so we can use occupations to show that.
At the end of the day though, who knows, we may go "screw it" and opt in for something different entirely than wealth, occupations, or the like. We'll have to see how the system develops, and more importantly, how the Beta goes. So, please don't think for a minute that I'm razzing on you over your suggestions. They don't match up with how things are right now, but without people like you to suggest things, this wouldn't be a community venture.
You know, do what you want with this. Put in a lot of realism. That would be appropriate. Pathfinder SF would be more to my interest anyways. When you make Pathfinder Horror, you can allow anybody to cast spells, but with dire results if they are not properly trained.
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You know, do what you want with this. Put in a lot of realism. That would be appropriate. Pathfinder SF would be more to my interest anyways. When you make Pathfinder Horror, you can allow anybody to cast spells, but with dire results if they are not properly trained.
Well, then you'll be happy to know that a lot of the d20 "Future" stuff is OGL as well. Once we get Modern polished, it'll only be a skip to update the Future side of it.
Well, in Hawaii-50 Dan-O was an expert marksmen.
He could easily outshoot any mundane who had flipped out and begun shooting.
Maybe I would just need to rename the classes to play D20 Modern.
Umm so did you guys abandon the project??
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Umm so did you guys abandon the project??
Not at all. I've been working on and off on it (just finished the character sheet yesterday). I did work on it less around the beginning of Oct, but it should be moving back up to full speed. Also, I'll be moving a lot of the stuff to the d20modern database, as I've been given a section specifically for the update.
Also also wik: I'm trying to come up with a set name for this. Should we stick with PFModern (Not Pathfinder Modern, as I don't want to step on Paizo's awesome toes). Since I was lacking for a graphic, for the character sheets, I have "MODERN! A Pathfinder RPG." If needed, I could drop the word Pathfinder in favor of the Pathfinder Compatible sticker, but again, lacking graphics, what do you all think?
Finally, feats are 75% done. Skills are 90% done. After these, we'll focus on a the Wealth System (which is staying), but try to make sure it's A) understandable and B) balanced.
So in Pathfinder Now! Cats and Foxes are not really 2 intelligence idiots, so I guess they are not animals. Maybe divergent sentients. They have a hard time talking, no thumbs(can't write but some may read), and only stand up when they need to. It would be cool if there was an underground of cats born with thumbs and able to speak human. Puss in Boots may be a provable person in that world. If you don't like that, religate it to homebrew.