I mean the only reason to change it is to limit the attacks the Eidolon can get with normal weapons, otherwise they would have just left it as is.
Uh, no. Actually, it's not even a change. In all three public versions of the Summoner, the Eidolon has only had one value for BAB at each level. It's part of the base rules of the game that you get additional manufactured weapon attacks with a +6 or higher BAB; in order to override that, they have toe explicitly say so. Not including additional attacks on the BAB chart to save space doesn't count as an explicit override.
I mean the only reason to change it is to limit the attacks the Eidolon can get with normal weapons, otherwise they would have just left it as is.Uh, no. Actually, it's not even a change. In all three public versions of the Summoner, the Eidolon has only had one value for BAB at each level. It's part of the base rules of the game that you get additional manufactured weapon attacks with a +6 or higher BAB; in order to override that, they have toe explicitly say so. Not including additional attacks on the BAB chart to save space doesn't count as an explicit override.
I was just about ready to storm in here and disagree with you. Before I saw what happened. I have a print out of the playtest and have been looking at the wrong chart (summoners not Eidolon's).
Okay so that isn't something they nerfed. I feel a little bit better. lol
On the other hand, at this point, when something is questionable about the summoner, and one choice nerfs it, and the other makes it more playable, I think you are probably safe to bet money that the decision will come down on the side of NERF NERF NERF and NERF IT SOME MORE.
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On the other hand, at this point, when something is questionable about the summoner, and one choice nerfs it, and the other makes it more playable, I think you are probably safe to bet money that the decision will come down on the side of NERF NERF NERF and NERF IT SOME MORE.
Having the SLAs and Eidolon be an either / or choice at character generation (like Natural Bond or Divine Bond), instead of nerfing one or both because they are too good in synch, might have been a more palatable choice.
A pure Eidolon-based Summoner might have been cool, and I'd be willing to give up the minute long fast-casting SLAs to have a more generally useful and longer-lasting Eidolon. Similarly, a Summoner with no Eidolon at all, but enhanced summoning utility, could have made for an interesting option. Like a Paladin choosing a Mount or a Bonded Weapon, or a Wizard choosing an Arcane Bonded item or Familiar, the Summoner could have had a 'Summoner's Bond' option that either made his Summons better, or gave him a full-time Eidolon.
Still, either or both of those options could be presented later as 'Alternate Class Features,' or whatever.
On the other hand, at this point, when something is questionable about the summoner, and one choice nerfs it, and the other makes it more playable, I think you are probably safe to bet money that the decision will come down on the side of NERF NERF NERF and NERF IT SOME MORE.Having the SLAs and Eidolon be an either / or choice at character generation (like Natural Bond or Divine Bond), instead of nerfing one or both because they are too good in synch, might have been a more palatable choice.
Definitely. Hell, I didn't even want summon monster on the spell list, let alone as a major class feature. I'd have been happy to give that up to keep the Eidolon from being battered with the nerf hammer.
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Having the SLAs and Eidolon be an either / or choice at character generation (like Natural Bond or Divine Bond), instead of nerfing one or both because they are too good in synch, might have been a more palatable choice.Definitely. Hell, I didn't even want summon monster on the spell list, let alone as a major class feature. I'd have been happy to give that up to keep the Eidolon from being battered with the nerf hammer.
I actually like *both* options. The pure Summoner and the pure Eidolon wrangler. Right now, the APG Summoner feels like it does two things poorly.
I kinda feel the same way about the Alchemist. There's two really neat class ideas there, smooshed together into something that feels un-elegant.
Honestly, I've never liked the alchemist. I don't like the idea of 'spell but not a spell, but only affects you because it's a spell, but you can't pour it down someone elses throat because it's a spell and not a potion, but, if you drop it it's not a potion because it no longer works'.
I like the oracles, they have a fairly tight focus and none of the rules are horribly smashed together 'except except except' smashups. Same with the Inquisitor and Cavalier and Witch. All of them have fairly straight forward abilities that are focused and not spiked out all over the place.
The alchemist and summoner are really bad about trying to do everything ok but nothing as good as anyone else because we can't step on anyone elses toes. :( Both classes have good possibilities, and good premises, but, the way they are implemented honestly feels like someone tried to use lego's to make an erector set project.
I actually like *both* options. The pure Summoner and the pure Eidolon wrangler. Right now, the APG Summoner feels like it does two things poorly.Having the SLAs and Eidolon be an either / or choice at character generation (like Natural Bond or Divine Bond), instead of nerfing one or both because they are too good in synch, might have been a more palatable choice.Definitely. Hell, I didn't even want summon monster on the spell list, let alone as a major class feature. I'd have been happy to give that up to keep the Eidolon from being battered with the nerf hammer.
Yeah, I don't mind it being an option for those who want it, it's just not at all what the Summoner class is all about for me. Splitting it into a Druid/Paladin/Ranger-esque "take the SLAs or take the Eidolon" option at 1st level would have been perfect, IMO. That way people that want the Summoner to summon hordes of monster can have that without worrying about the Eidolon (people like james maissen) and those of us that aren't interested in the standard summoned critters can play around with our custom monster.
Matter of fact, I think I'm going to suggest that as a house rule.
Matter of fact, I think I'm going to suggest that as a house rule.
Hmmm,
I might put that into my Summoner rules as well. As an alternate build. Half of it's already there, since I put in an option to drop the SLA for the original 'stick around' eidelon. Just need to add the other half, SLA boosted and no eidelon. No eidelon, but can have multiple summons at once, perhaps boosting it to 10 minutes per level once per day at 12th level.
Definitely. Hell, I didn't even want summon monster on the spell list, let alone as a major class feature. I'd have been happy to give that up to keep the Eidolon from being battered with the nerf hammer.
Hopefully someday there will be an archetype that replaces the summon monster ability with something that boosts the Eidolon itself. That, or archetypes with themed power sets for summoners which reflect the theme of their Eidolon (heal spells from angelic ones, fire spells for summoners with eidolons with a lot of fire powers...)
I had been hoping summoner archetypes that in the APG itself, but I guess they wanted to wait and see how the new classes worked out before releasing variants of them.
Just wanted to chime in with saying that I like where this thread is going. You guys are on to something good here.
Hmmm, all this talk about modifications and archetypes for the summoner just gave me an idea. One neat way of giving the summoner's Eidolon a theme would be to slowly apply a template to it. Something like the Half-Celestial Template or Half-Dragon Template. Sure, you can already gain a lot of the things these templates would give just by spending evolution points, but this would help people who want a theme that isn't very combat optimized (by freeing up some points). The only thing that I'm going to need to figure out is how much of a CR equivalent from the Template modifications I should be replacing the Summon Monster class ability with.
I don't want to hijack this thread with it though, so if I come up with anything I'll just post it in homebrew.
Edit: I've figured out the easiest way to do this. I can apply slightly modified versions of the summoner bloodlines to the eidolons in trade for the summoner's summon monster ability. That way, Paizo has already balanced it all for me ;)
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Eidolon gets :
Evolutions :
pounce 1
limbsx2 4
clawsx2 2
Weapon training 2
Improved damage claws 1
Large 4
Rend 2
Feats : INA claws, Weapon focus claws, martial weapons proficiency greatsword.
Items : greatsword +2
@Pinky - curious how you get your eidolon to use a greatsword without the appropriate limbs - it seems the you only have 2 pairs of limbs & since you have pounce you must be a quadraped which are legs not arms so i cant see a way to hol the sword(s) the claws I have no problem with though
@everyone else - I would like to thanks everyone for their comments - not quite what I was looking for but at least this thread has not gone down the same way as the other thread ie bashing the class senseless & arguing over whether it is OR is not better
since noone has listed any improvements or nerfs like I suggested can I assume then that what has already been listed is it?
from what I have read on this thread & the other older one which is closed then to me the summoner has been slightly improved in the spell lust area but nerfed again with regards to the eidolon - in other words we got a summoner with a closer improvement in spell list to the first draft in the playtest but nerfed the eidolon even more from the second playtest draft?
I am going to do a separate post for my version & would like opinions
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Edit: Hey....I just thought of a neat trick for summoners. They have life link, and they have spells that let them resummon their Eidolon (at full health I think) even after it has already been killed. By combining this with Die Hard, a summoner can basically multiply his health pool by several times by resummoning his Eidolon...
From what I've read, I'm not sure this will work. Seems they only have the one spell that could bring back the Eidolon at full health despite having just been killed (purified calling), which is a 4th level spell and not available until level 10. Also, from the way I read it, the Life Link only works when the Eidolon takes enough damage to send it back to the home plane, the Summoner sacrifices his own HP to prevent that from happening. I may be reading your post wrong, but it sounds like you're suggesting the resummon/life link would raise the Summoner's HP, and I don't think that is at all part of the ability.
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opinions then on this please - my version would have been as follows
- keep the new spell list - justification everyone's posts seem to agree this is fine
- eidolon goes only when summoner dies not when unconscious or asleep justification - does not need to concentrate to keep here but maybe his mortal coil does keep it here (nowhere can I find something in the old rules saying he must concentrate to keep it on his plane - dont know about new rules)
- eidolon max attacks includes manufactured weapons - justification I dont want my eidolon being considered overkill offensively than an animal companion (an ape can use a sword & some natural weapon but its not overkill so why should the eidolon - I think the ability to create my eidolon is sufficient advantage compared to druids, rangers & arcane familiars & does not spoil it with too many attacks - makes it fairer for all players I believe - I want to be decent at combat but not the tank if you want a tank be a fighter type
- Summon SLA max 1 at a time, std action to cast, duration 1 min not 1 round, can be cast with eidolon around - justification - the DM & player should be able to manage the battlefield with this same as a druid if they cant then the DM should not let player use a summoner
- any magic items on eidolon go with it when eidolon is banished however that happens (spell or damage) & they come back with it equipped as it left when resummoned - this more for an official ruling than anything since I assume we still dont have one
- magic item slots not shared - justification who else has this limitation - limit the items to slots available (eg.limbs needed for bracers, rings) & the money side will sort out the rest unless a party wants to invest extra funds to the eidolon & summoner (never happens in my games - everyone gets equal share maybe bit extra if they just short of getting something but usually get less later on)
-add evolution - extra head 2 pts - adds +2 perception & allows for a second bite evolution to be taken - not included though - this allows for multihead monsters & is equivalent (in my mind) to buying a set of limbs & claws
- add 2 more base forms - avian & ooze
both are size medium
Avian
speed 40
ac +2 natural armour
saves fort good ref good will bad
attack bite (1d6)
ability scores str 14 dex 14 con 13 wis/int/cha as norm
free evos bite, flight
Ooze
speed 20
ac +2 natural armour
saves fort good ref bad will good
attack tentacle (1D4) energy attack (1D6)
ability scores str 16 dex 12 con 13 wis/int/cha as norm
free evos tentacle, energy attack (choose type at creation & can not be changed afterwards even at level increase) this would allow an ooze of various types acid based one or cold based one etc,
the free evos are not the same pt values as the other base forms but have evos that are normally not available at first level (both include 5th level abilities) but I dont think it is big deal as druid animal companion can have flight
if wanted to add evos to same pt value then
Avian Scent & Reach (bite)
Ooze Climb & reach (tentacle)
I have tried to think of anything that came up in playtest & from what I have read in the 2 threads - if everyone likes this maybe we submit it to kobold quarterly unless Paizo themselves wants to "correct" the rules to this - I know what I would rather - they could just do it as an errata & in reprints & new PDF versions
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From what I've read, I'm not sure this will work. Seems they only have the one spell that could bring back the Eidolon at full health despite having just been killed (purified calling), which is a 4th level spell and not available until level 10. Also, from the way I read it, the Life Link only works when the Eidolon takes enough damage to send it back to the home plane, the Summoner sacrifices his own HP to prevent that from happening. I may be reading your post wrong, but it sounds like you're suggesting the resummon/life link would raise the Summoner's HP, and I don't think that is at all part of the ability.
Edit: Hey....I just thought of a neat trick for summoners. They have life link, and they have spells that let them resummon their Eidolon (at full health I think) even after it has already been killed. By combining this with Die Hard, a summoner can basically multiply his health pool by several times by resummoning his Eidolon...
I think he is getting life link & life bond mixed up - life bond allows this & it is a 14th level ability life link allows the summoner to transfer his HPs to the eidolon to keep it alive
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@Pinky - curious how you get your eidolon to use a greatsword without the appropriate limbs - it seems the you only have 2 pairs of limbs & since you have pounce you must be a quadraped which are legs not arms so i cant see a way to hol the sword(s) the claws I have no problem with thoughThe limbs evolution has no restrictions, all the forms can get either arms or legs. I start with 2x limbs for legs, I buy 2x limbs(arms). 1 set of claws goes on my forelegs, 1 set of claws goes on a set of arms, and 1 set of arms holds the sword.
so would need to have 3x sets of limbs - 2x pairs for legs which you get as a quadraped so you can use pounce & 1x pair arms for extra cost for the ability to use 1x 2Hsword or 2x 1H sword
since unless they changed the rules in the new APG then you have to define what the limbs are legs with feet or arm with handsyou eidolon looks like it only has the 2x pairs for legs & no extra limbs for arms so I dont see how you can use it - sorry if I dense but I just trying to understand
From what I've read, I'm not sure this will work. Seems they only have the one spell that could bring back the Eidolon at full health despite having just been killed (purified calling), which is a 4th level spell and not available until level 10. Also, from the way I read it, the Life Link only works when the Eidolon takes enough damage to send it back to the home plane, the Summoner sacrifices his own HP to prevent that from happening. I may be reading your post wrong, but it sounds like you're suggesting the resummon/life link would raise the Summoner's HP, and I don't think that is at all part of the ability.
Yea, I named the wrong ability. At level 14, the summoner gets Life Bond, which is like a reverse life link. At that level he's going to have 4th level spells anyway....but yea, that's a pretty high level trick.
...Plus it looks like Purified Calling takes 1 minute to cast. Yea, that would make this a lot less useful.
And yet...they are right. You just don't want to hear about it. Here's a thought, try not looking in this thread again!Oh let's not start this again.
I was doing a bit. You know the one where one person comes into a thread and sees that the topic is something that 300+ people have already beaten into the ground already and plays Captain Obvious by stating that we should just let this topic die because there is nothing we can do about it and is only saying this in the hopes that someone will be tempted into replying to them by saying something along the lines of "if you don't want to hear about it, don't read the thread" to which point the person comes back with "OBVIOUS TROLL IS OBVIOUS" type of comeback.
So I suppose I should thank you for your contribution.
Seriously though, I only said that because I feel that time could be better spent on things like Cancer research, or fixing the leak in the Gulf, or well anything really. Because while the OP truly just wanted to know what people's opinions were about the changes to the Summoner class, what he didn't realize is that they unleashed Pandora's box itself in doing so.
I'm not asking you to stop because I have severe OCD and have to read every post in a thread including the ones the make my eyes bleed (I really don't, I'm just be facetious here). But I am asking you to stop for the children. Will somebody please think of the children!
I'm not asking you to stop because I have severe OCD and have to read every post in a thread including the ones the make my eyes bleed (I really don't, I'm just be facetious here). But I am asking you to stop for the children. Will somebody please think of the children!
I'm not thinking summoning children, or children shaped eidelons, are a very good idea. Far too close to abuse. So I'm afraid your request to have the eidelon/summoner debate focus on summoning or building children is a bad idea.
opinions then on this please - my version would have been as follows
- keep the new spell list - justification everyone's posts seem to agree this is fine
- eidolon goes only when summoner dies not when unconscious or asleep justification - does not need to concentrate to keep here but maybe his mortal coil does keep it here (nowhere can I find something in the old rules saying he must concentrate to keep it on his plane - dont know about new rules)
- eidolon max attacks includes manufactured weapons - justification I dont want my eidolon being considered overkill offensively than an animal companion (an ape can use a sword & some natural weapon but its not overkill so why should the eidolon - I think the ability to create my eidolon is sufficient advantage compared to druids, rangers & arcane familiars & does not spoil it with too many attacks - makes it fairer for all players I believe - I want to be decent at combat but not the tank if you want a tank be a fighter type
- Summon SLA max 1 at a time, std action to cast, duration 1 min not 1 round, can be cast with eidolon around - justification - the DM & player should be able to manage the battlefield with this same as a druid if they cant then the DM should not let player use a summoner
- any magic items on eidolon go with it when eidolon is banished however that happens (spell or damage) & they come back with it equipped as it left when resummoned - this more for an official ruling than anything since I assume we still dont have one
- magic item slots not shared - justification who else has this limitation - limit the items to slots available (eg.limbs needed for bracers, rings) & the money side will sort out the rest unless a party wants to invest extra funds to the eidolon & summoner (never happens in my games - everyone gets equal share maybe bit extra if they just short of getting something but usually get less later on)
-add evolution - extra head 2 pts - adds +2 perception & allows for a second bite evolution to be taken - not...
Having actually gotten my hands on the book and seeing the changes first hand, I'm actually a little angry about to. But the good news is that the class can only improve from here.
The spell list has a few tricks up its sleeve, but is seriously lacking in any kind of damage department which I imagine is because the developers wanted the focus to be on the Eidolon.
I think everyone and their little brother will be using some form of homebrew rule about the unconscious summoner rule. (This comment is extra funny to me because my little brother is currently playing a summoner.)
As for the max attack thing well that's kind of up to the individual. The way I see it, the most attacks anyone is ever going to see from an Eidolon in an average game (unless you happen to be starting at 19th level) is between 5 and 6 natural attacks or 7 to 8 manufactored attacks. Now, at first you might be thinking "HOLY CRAP! That is a lot of attacks" but on average only 2/3 of them will even hit anything. Meaning approximately 5 to 6 will actually hit and that's not counting things like haste and what not. Besides a Two-Weapon Fighter with all of the feats has something like 9 attacks so I'm not really seeing the problem here. Multiweapon fighting works just like Two-Weapon Fighting which just adds one off hand attack but does so with all off hands. Its not like the Eidolon will be full attacking on a charge with 15+ attacks or anything like that.
I agree that it should be a preference thing. I think that the change was made because as playtested, the Summoner could very easily solo'd just about any encounter based on the amount of things he could put on the board. Most encounters are designed with 4 people in mind, so with the Summoner practically doubling this number right off the bat, it kind of made it a bit overwhelming. I think you might want to reconsider this rule.
Agree, since there isn't a ruling on this.
This would make the Eidolon more of a cohort than a compainion. But, considering the Eidolon cannot wear armor, this should not be a big deal.
The extra head thing should have some kind of limit or you'll run into some issues there.
I do not understand what everyone's big deal is about there not being a pure avian form. So your Eidolon will be more like a Couatl or a Griffon, who cares? You can still ride both of these creatures and have the bonus of having extra attacks. To each his own I suppose. Besides I'm sure there will be additional forms in further supplements.
I'm not thinking summoning children, or children shaped eidelons, are a very good idea. Far too close to abuse. So I'm afraid your request to have the eidelon/summoner debate focus on summoning or building children is a bad idea.
I'm not asking you to stop because I have severe OCD and have to read every post in a thread including the ones the make my eyes bleed (I really don't, I'm just be facetious here). But I am asking you to stop for the children. Will somebody please think of the children!
I was going to think of some witty (at least in my opinion) reply but I'm too busy laughing at the idea of children shaped eidolons.
I was going to think of some witty (at least in my opinion) reply but I'm too busy laughing at the idea of children shaped eidolons.I'm not thinking summoning children, or children shaped eidelons, are a very good idea. Far too close to abuse. So I'm afraid your request to have the eidelon/summoner debate focus on summoning or building children is a bad idea.
I'm not asking you to stop because I have severe OCD and have to read every post in a thread including the ones the make my eyes bleed (I really don't, I'm just be facetious here). But I am asking you to stop for the children. Will somebody please think of the children!
\
I had this image of the My Little Rascal's cast, all one Eidelon, piling over each other to bite the big bad guy on the ankles. :)
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From what I've read, I'm not sure this will work. Seems they only have the one spell that could bring back the Eidolon at full health despite having just been killed (purified calling), which is a 4th level spell and not available until level 10. Also, from the way I read it, the Life Link only works when the Eidolon takes enough damage to send it back to the home plane, the Summoner sacrifices his own HP to prevent that from happening. I may be reading your post wrong, but it sounds like you're suggesting the resummon/life link would raise the Summoner's HP, and I don't think that is at all part of the ability.Yea, I named the wrong ability. At level 14, the summoner gets Life Bond, which is like a reverse life link. At that level he's going to have 4th level spells anyway....but yea, that's a pretty high level trick.
...Plus it looks like Purified Calling takes 1 minute to cast. Yea, that would make this a lot less useful.
From the way I read, it looks like Life Bond really only grants you a pool of temporary HPs in the form of the Eidolon's HP total. It says that "damage in excess of that which would kill the summoner is instead transferred to the Eidolon." I don't think it'll actually raise the summoner's HP total.
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opinions then on this please - my version would have been as follows
- keep the new spell list - justification everyone's posts seem to agree this is fine
- eidolon goes only when summoner dies not when unconscious or asleep justification - does not need to concentrate to keep here but maybe his mortal coil does keep it here (nowhere can I find something in the old rules saying he must concentrate to keep it on his plane - dont know about new rules)
- eidolon max attacks includes manufactured weapons - justification I dont want my eidolon being considered overkill offensively than an animal companion (an ape can use a sword & some natural weapon but its not overkill so why should the eidolon - I think the ability to create my eidolon is sufficient advantage compared to druids, rangers & arcane familiars & does not spoil it with too many attacks - makes it fairer for all players I believe - I want to be decent at combat but not the tank if you want a tank be a fighter type
- Summon SLA max 1 at a time, std action to cast, duration 1 min not 1 round, can be cast with eidolon around - justification - the DM & player should be able to manage the battlefield with this same as a druid if they cant then the DM should not let player use a summoner
- any magic items on eidolon go with it when eidolon is banished however that happens (spell or damage) & they come back with it equipped as it left when resummoned - this more for an official ruling than anything since I assume we still dont have one
- magic item slots not shared - justification who else has this limitation - limit the items to slots available (eg.limbs needed for bracers, rings) & the money side will sort out the rest unless a party wants to invest extra funds to the eidolon & summoner (never happens in my games - everyone gets equal share maybe bit extra if they just short of getting something but usually get less later on)
-add evolution - extra head 2 pts - adds +2 perception & allows for a second bite evolution to be taken - not...
Now for the point of this thread, lol. Don't have opinions on all of it, but anyway...
First, I think that the summon limiting (Eidolon vs. SLA) is due to the problems brought up during the playtest where you could conceivably make a 'party' of summons. I'm personally for the one at a time thing, but YMMV.
I'm not sure about the reasons behind the Eidolon banishment for sleep and unconscious. With the Life Link, I can see the unconscious part, what with the body/mind using all it can to fight for life (i.e. Con check to self-stabilize.) But that can easily be seen as a stretch; I can't come up with a reasoning for asleep.
I think Avian would be an awesome base model. Ooze would probably work, too, but I'd be happier with Avian.
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I think Avian would be an awesome base model. Ooze would probably work, too, but I'd be happier with Avian.
The choice to limit Eidolons to not gaining Flight until 5th level, while Druids can have flying Companions at 1st level (and even flying companions they can *ride* at 1st level, if they are Size Small and use the Pteranadon or Roc out of the Bestiary), seems odd to me.
Even Rangers and Clerics with the Animal Domain can get a flying companion before the Summoner, and they are certainly not primary 'pet classes.'
If anything, I think Avian would have made more sense than Serpentine for the base forms...
I'm sorry but I really want to see the break down on a druid actually riding his flying mount in combat effectively. Both the Roc and Pteranodon begin with very low strength for mount fliers (12 and 8). The cap at light loads of 43 and 26 lb. The lightest Halfling is a 27 lb female. So unless you going into the fight under armed and armored even the Roc is a highly impractical flying mount. You can't even ride Pteranodon at 1st level.
*edit*
My appologies, you can fly on the Pteranodon. It's only the mounts barding that prevents flight. However the ACP from weight is going to really hurt fly checks.
I don't like a number of the unnecessary restrictions placed on the Summoner, but my biggest problem with Summoner is not in the class. It's the complete absence of any and all relevant feats. There's Summoner's Call (which is so crummy as to be useless, thanks to being an enhancement bonus) and maybe Augment Summon (which is liable to be useless half the time or worse since you can't use your Summon SLA at the same time as your eidolon), but other than that? Nothing, really.
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Well, the thing is, we were complaining about the summoner's slight lack of power due to the fact that not all of us were optimizing bastards and/or had DMs that would nuke any cheese they saw, and the changes really penalized everyone. And this was BEFORE the APG came out, during the final playtest version.
Jason told us to calm down and wait for the APG to come out before making hasty judgements about the class, and that we would be pleasantly surprised or something. So we waited, thinking that it would be a give and take sort of thing.
But all we got was lots of take...and a fairly good spell list. Which really wasn't something anyone was all that interested in. We were in it for...the summons, surprise! Or the Eidolon.
No feats...except for a crap tastic one that lasts 10 minutes and isn't actually stackable with augment summoning("heh, so you won't be able to abuse it, you optimizing bastards roflmao"), which kinda negates the whole summon the eidolon with a spell and get augment summoning and summoner's call. And that was it. Literally, read through the whole thing with some buddies of mine...and we were boggled.
All the other classes got a plethora of feats, including the new classes, and we got...one really useless one. No extra summoning, no "here's a feat your eidolon can take, exclusively for your eidolon! See, we're thinking about you guys!" nothing.
It's like they were scared of giving us anything. Scared of their own class...ridiculous.
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The Summon Monster SLA remains a standard action which does give it a leg up over the other summoning spellcasters.
Not seeing how that helps them.
Compare the summoner to a druid.
Both start with their pets out.
The druid can begin to summon another critter. The summoner can't. Now the druid might be able to standard action cast a summon himself, but even if he can't he can have as many summons as he can spend rounds summoning out there. So I'm not seeing how this helps the summoner.
When his eidolon dies or is banished he can bring in a summon that round, but unless that's round 1 the druid has already brought out at least one summon if not a menagerie by that time.
The summoner was gimped when he could only have one summon out there with his pet. Now he can't even do that.
They would have been better off making it a kind of dual class, one route that improved summoning while the other got class abilities relating to the eidolon.
Both could have had some minor use of the other, but not much.
As it stands the class has little identity, so many exceptions that even standard rules are questioned about them, and self-contradictory abilities.
It's a mess. And that's a shame as it was a class that had decent potential.
-James
All the druid really has to do is...be in a forest. They win.
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I think Avian would be an awesome base model. Ooze would probably work, too, but I'd be happier with Avian.The choice to limit Eidolons to not gaining Flight until 5th level, while Druids can have flying Companions at 1st level (and even flying companions they can *ride* at 1st level, if they are Size Small and use the Pteranadon or Roc out of the Bestiary), seems odd to me.
Even Rangers and Clerics with the Animal Domain can get a flying companion before the Summoner, and they are certainly not primary 'pet classes.'
If anything, I think Avian would have made more sense than Serpentine for the base forms...
Seems we only have to wait til April-ish, with the release of "Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic". Just saw it for the first time in the Paizo 2010 Catalog I picked up at GenCon. It mentions "...additional summoner eidolon abilities and eidolon templates..." among a slew of other things.
Well, the thing is, we were complaining about the summoner's slight lack of power due to the fact that not all of us were optimizing bastards and/or had DMs that would nuke any cheese they saw, and the changes really penalized everyone. And this was BEFORE the APG came out, during the final playtest version.
Jason told us to calm down and wait for the APG to come out before making hasty judgements about the class, and that we would be pleasantly surprised or something. So we waited, thinking that it would be a give and take sort of thing.
But all we got was lots of take...and a fairly good spell list. Which really wasn't something anyone was all that interested in. We were in it for...the summons, surprise! Or the Eidolon.
No feats...except for a crap tastic one that lasts 10 minutes and isn't actually stackable with augment summoning("heh, so you won't be able to abuse it, you optimizing bastards roflmao"), which kinda negates the whole summon the eidolon with a spell and get augment summoning and summoner's call. And that was it. Literally, read through the whole thing with some buddies of mine...and we were boggled.
All the other classes got a plethora of feats, including the new classes, and we got...one really useless one. No extra summoning, no "here's a feat your eidolon can take, exclusively for your eidolon! See, we're thinking about you guys!" nothing.
It's like they were scared of giving us anything. Scared of their own class...ridiculous.
There is the Eldritch Claws feat.
Ok, but seriously, I agree that the summoner got the very short end of the stick.
Seems we only have to wait til April-ish, with the release of "Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic". Just saw it for the first time in the Paizo 2010 Catalog I picked up at GenCon. It mentions "...additional summoner eidolon abilities and eidolon templates..." among a slew of other things.I think Avian would be an awesome base model. Ooze would probably work, too, but I'd be happier with Avian.The choice to limit Eidolons to not gaining Flight until 5th level, while Druids can have flying Companions at 1st level (and even flying companions they can *ride* at 1st level, if they are Size Small and use the Pteranadon or Roc out of the Bestiary), seems odd to me.
Even Rangers and Clerics with the Animal Domain can get a flying companion before the Summoner, and they are certainly not primary 'pet classes.'
If anything, I think Avian would have made more sense than Serpentine for the base forms...
Unless it fixes the inherent problems with the Summoner/Thaumaturgist class, it won't really matter. And since the inherent problems were built in, that will be rather difficult.
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What would be really cool and fun is if the summoner can choose the eidolon path or the summon monster path, but taking one path just weakens the other one.
Like if I go eidolon, the eidolon is very powerful, and the summons are very weak (like maybe conjurer styled, 1 round cast, rounds duration). If I go summons, it's standard action to cast, minutes duration (and the eidolon is reduced to a familiar).
Although I am very unhappy about unconsciousness dismisses the eidolon, I think I can live with it. I'm much more unhappy about Summon Monster SLA or eidolon instead of both at the same time.
Lack of feats is a bit annoying, but I'm okay with it so far. Summoner's Call is awful. I can't believe Paizo would make a feat that slows down the game. I'll consider taking this, and then every 10 minutes, I'll dismiss my eidolon and then resummon it. I'm sure after the 2nd time, DM and players will all be very annoyed by it. Why make a feat that's not good mechanically in addition to having an option for players to make it work in the most annoying way possible?
Lastly, more forms would be great. I really want the ooze form, but an avian form makes sense. I would love to see a weapon form too, where the eidolon could be a dancing weapon and/or wielding as a weapon by the summoner.
since noone has listed any improvements or nerfs like I suggested can I assume then that what has already been listed is it?
There are other less obvious nerfs. Like some what they did to some of the evolutions. For example, you can't get the Large evolution until 8th level now (used to be 6th). And if you increase either the STR or CON of a large animal it costs 4 points instead of 2. Which is basically useless now. I mean 4 points for just a +2 bonus is not worth it IMO.
Well I'm just focusing my summoner as the pet manager rather than a summoner, lol. I'll dip into the SM spells once in a while after I get to about SM lvl 3, but at the low levels I don't really see the point. Eidolon is doing okay for now, his AC sucks but luckily he isn't targeted much and with buffs I can increase it by 10, so it is working out okay for now.
^^ lol at BYC's last post. i was thinking about doing that exact same thing with the Summoner's call feat.
since noone has listed any improvements or nerfs like I suggested can I assume then that what has already been listed is it?There are other less obvious nerfs. Like some what they did to some of the evolutions. For example, you can't get the Large evolution until 8th level now (used to be 6th). And if you increase either the STR or CON of a large animal it costs 4 points instead of 2. Which is basically useless now. I mean 4 points for just a +2 bonus is not worth it IMO.
Well I'm just focusing my summoner as the pet manager rather than a summoner, lol. I'll dip into the SM spells once in a while after I get to about SM lvl 3, but at the low levels I don't really see the point. Eidolon is doing okay for now, his AC sucks but luckily he isn't targeted much and with buffs I can increase it by 10, so it is working out okay for now.
^^ lol at BYC's last post. i was thinking about doing that exact same thing with the Summoner's call feat.
Making an eidolon HUGE costs 10 points (Large 4 + Huge 6) instead of 8 (4 + 4) now too. The ability increase evolution costs DOUBLE points if applied to a huge eidolon. The spell-like ability evolution no longer exists at all. It doesn't appear you can even ride your eidolon anymore without spending an evolution point to do so.
Those are some pretty hefty nerfs I'm thinking.
They should have just removed its ability to use weapons instead of all that crap.
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Here you have someone with a pet that is every bit as powerful as an animal companion, with the buffing spells to turn it into a more effective warrior, and the ability to design it to your specifications depending on what you need in the campaign. When it isn't around, you have the ability to use Summon Monster as a SLA that is a standard action and they last for one minute per level; and at either time you can use the spell Summon Monster as well.
buffing spells to turn it into a more effective warrioir - sounds like a druid too - as for designing it to what you need in a campaign you either have to level or pay the cost of the transmogrify spell - not cheap I bet - druid can cast summon nature ally without it being memmed & your animal companion is still around to help fight
Need more attacks to destroy groups of weaker monsters? You can do that. Need more armor for meat-shielding? You can do that. Need a mount? Possible too. People underestimate the ability to customize an eidolon to specifically work with what your adventures are based around.
really? again you either have to level or pay the cost of the transmogrify spell not something you can do just whenever you like
Gone unconscious, Eidolon gone? Wake up, you have SLA as a standard action to cover your butt for a few rounds while you buff yourself into a combat effective person. And this doesn't go away. Animal companions can die. Mounts can be killed. SLA monsters are forever. And like a druid you can move around the battlefield, administering potions or using wands to heal people, while your Eidolon covers for you in battle. Unlike a druid, you don't have to worry about your eidolon being killed permanently. And if you REALLY need that army, at higher levels you can use your SLA, and two spells, one to summon monsters, one to summon your eidolon.
gone unconscious or asleep hey your a druid so your pet stays while your summoner companion is oh no WITHOUT his again. pets for druids & other classes can be replaced after a period of time sure not as quick as a summoner but they still can be. a druid can also use their SNA without it being memmed whereas the summoner gets the SLA & has to mem a summon monster spell with a limited spell list & if you want your eidolon guess what no more SLA
I'm not seeing as much of a 'nerf' as people seem to be complaining about here. Summoners are not comparable to druids - they're more like bards or inquisitors for combat ability combined with a 'trick'.
actually they are more like a druid than a bard or inquistor hands down - good pet, divine spells & similar combat ability if anything the druid wins here as well especially when wildshaped so the nerf everyone keeps saying still holds valid
what I started this thread for was to list the good & bad changes for the new summoner not say whether the class was good or bad - other threads have bashed this to death & been closed for it - I wanted a constructive listed of changes
It has changed somewhat to include how it could have been improved which is fine by me
I thought the Summoner was a spontaneous arcane caster. Hence the problem with no heal spells (until the new "heal your eidolon" spells I've heard is in the APG).
Did this change? Are they now a memorization, divine caster?
Because arcane spells would be more comparitive to the Bard...