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I thought the Summoner was a spontaneous arcane caster. Hence the problem with no heal spells (until the new "heal your eidolon" spells I've heard is in the APG).
Did this change? Are they now a memorization, divine caster?
Because arcane spells would be more comparitive to the Bard...
they are spontaneous arcane caster but with buffing spells of a divine caster I think - I dont have the APG so cant look at the revised spells list
Don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but another eidolon nerf I find frustrating is restricting the size evolution until level 8 and 13 as opposed to 6 and 11. That is two more levels I have to wait for a mount. The huge evolution is a lot more expensive now, which I think would have been restrictive enough. I don't think it needed both nerfs. There are so many cool things that could have been done with this class, and I am hoping that they will get some archetype love in Ultimate Magic that will fix some of these consistency problems. Until then I hope my GM house rules some corrections otherwise I won't be playing a summoner. I don't think the class is broken, just to restrictive to be fun.
It doesn't appear you can even ride your eidolon anymore without spending an evolution point to do so.
Those are some pretty hefty nerfs I'm thinking.
It's more than nerfs, it infringes on normal rules.
If it wasn't the exception riddled eidolon I would respond that the evolution only makes the eidolon an suitable combat trained mount. Not sure what one would loose without this evolution.. a penalty on ride checks or disappearing in a puff of logic??
-James
That's probably the only thing that really bugs me about the Summoner and Eidolon, all the damned exceptions (most of which seem forced).
I do dislike the inability of medium sized summoners to ride their summons until level 8. But a small summoner can ride them at 1st level. It's just a bit of a whiff.
I think I will add in a 1pt version of the 'Large' size that can be taken at level 1. It only provides +2 str/-2 dex and affects the CMD/CMB for the eidelon (and of course, allows Mount to be taken). That would allow mounted medium sized summoners at 1st level without (further) breaking the class.
I do dislike the inability of medium sized summoners to ride their summons until level 8. But a small summoner can ride them at 1st level. It's just a bit of a whiff.
I think I will add in a 1pt version of the 'Large' size that can be taken at level 1. It only provides +2 str/-2 dex and affects the CMD/CMB for the eidelon (and of course, allows Mount to be taken). That would allow mounted medium sized summoners at 1st level without (further) breaking the class.
Yeah, add that to the fact that other classes who actually gain mounts get them as early as level 5 (paladin) or level 1 (Cavalier) makes that kind of bogus.
Yeah, add that to the fact that other classes who actually gain mounts get them as early as level 5 (paladin) or level 1 (Cavalier) makes that kind of bogus.I do dislike the inability of medium sized summoners to ride their summons until level 8. But a small summoner can ride them at 1st level. It's just a bit of a whiff.
I think I will add in a 1pt version of the 'Large' size that can be taken at level 1. It only provides +2 str/-2 dex and affects the CMD/CMB for the eidelon (and of course, allows Mount to be taken). That would allow mounted medium sized summoners at 1st level without (further) breaking the class.
Are you saying you wait until level 5 to get your Paladin mounted? My goodness, that must create some real tension in the party.
Huh. Has the eidolon lost the ability to gain a spell-like ability as an evolution? I really wanted to make a laser-shooting dragon for my Panzer Dragoon summoner. :(
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since noone has listed any improvements or nerfs like I suggested can I assume then that what has already been listed is it?There are other less obvious nerfs. Like some what they did to some of the evolutions. For example, you can't get the Large evolution until 8th level now (used to be 6th). And if you increase either the STR or CON of a large animal it costs 4 points instead of 2. Which is basically useless now. I mean 4 points for just a +2 bonus is not worth it IMO.
Well I'm just focusing my summoner as the pet manager rather than a summoner, lol. I'll dip into the SM spells once in a while after I get to about SM lvl 3, but at the low levels I don't really see the point. Eidolon is doing okay for now, his AC sucks but luckily he isn't targeted much and with buffs I can increase it by 10, so it is working out okay for now.
^^ lol at BYC's last post. i was thinking about doing that exact same thing with the Summoner's call feat.
Soo...increase it's strength/constitution BEFORE you increase its size.
Soo...increase it's strength/constitution BEFORE you increase its size.
I don't think it works that way.
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a utility Eidolon that has some spellsNot possible. You can only select the Spell-Like Ability evolution once.
There's really no such thing as a "utility Eidolon". Creatures from summon monster have more utility except at very low levels.
I'm not sure if anyone else caught this...the spell-like abilities evolutions for eidolons were removed. at least last time I checked my pdf...
That's sad. I can't do the 'arrows of light' using scorching ray then contagious flame for my Panzer Dragoon dragon. :(
Lets compare a level 10 eidolon to a level 10 animal companion charging an AC24 target. The former buffed with enlarge person, greater magic fang and greater evolution surge and the latter with greater magic fang and animal growth. I'm going to assume that every manufactured weapon counts will end up counting as a single natural attack after they errata it. So I'll stick with a single two handed weapon (and of course ignore the insane TWF manufactured/natural weapon rule from the core rulebooks and use the bestiary rules instead).
Lets compare a level 10 eidolon to a level 10 animal companion charging an AC24 target. The former buffed with enlarge person, greater magic fang and greater evolution surge and the latter with greater magic fang and animal growth. I'm going to assume that every manufactured weapon counts will end up counting as a single natural attack after they errata it. So I'll stick with a single two handed weapon (and of course ignore the insane TWF manufactured/natural weapon rule from the core rulebooks and use the bestiary rules instead).
I didnt check your math, but a couple of things I had a question about. Why do you have the weapon training evolution? The two points you spent on it would give you proficiency in a simple weapon.. the only weapon being used is a martial weapon which has a feat to cover its use listed.
Second question, is there a reason you arent counting in the bite attack?third question, I am only seeing one point spent on improved damage for claws, but you seem to be using it on all claws. Per the wording, it is for a single natural attack. The way the term natural attack is being used in the summoner entry it is for a single natural weapon, so thus you would need to buy it 4 times for 4 claws. are you counting the rest from the greater surge?
next is the 2d8 for the claw damage, shouldnt it be 3d6? base for huge is listed as d8, first feat/evolution takes it to 2d6, second takes it to 3d6.
as I said, I didnt double check your math... but your format for the math is really odd. If I am reading it correctly you are impling that rend can hit more than once per turn, where by the wording it cant.
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Lets compare a level 10 eidolon to a level 10 animal companion charging an AC24 target. The former buffed with enlarge person, greater magic fang and greater evolution surge and the latter with greater magic fang and animal growth. I'm going to assume that every manufactured weapon counts will end up counting as a single natural attack after they errata it. So I'll stick with a single two handed weapon (and of course ignore the insane TWF manufactured/natural weapon rule from the core rulebooks and use the bestiary rules instead).
Lets compare a level 10 eidolon to a level 10 animal companion charging an AC24 target. The former buffed with enlarge person, greater magic fang and greater evolution surge and the latter with greater magic fang and animal growth. I'm going to assume that every manufactured weapon counts will end up counting as a single natural attack after they errata it. So I'll stick with a single two handed weapon (and of course ignore the insane TWF manufactured/natural weapon rule from the core rulebooks and use the bestiary rules instead).
I didnt check your math, but a couple of things I had a question about. Why do you have the weapon training evolution? The two points you spent on it would give you proficiency in a simple weapon.. the only weapon being used is a martial weapon which has a feat to cover its use listed.
Second question, is there a reason you arent counting in the bite attack?
third question, I am only seeing one point spent on improved damage for claws, but you seem to be using it on all claws. Per the wording, it is for a single natural attack. The way the term natural attack is being used in the summoner entry it is for a single natural weapon, so thus you would need to buy it 4 times for 4 claws. are you counting the rest from the greater surge?
next is the 2d8 for the claw damage, shouldnt it be 3d6? base for huge is listed as d8, first feat/evolution takes it to 2d6, second takes it to 3d6.as...
Improved natural weapon applies to a set of claws, I believe. It would be really weird if one claw did 1d6 damage and the other only did 1d4.
If it doesn't specifically say so, then yes, it does.Soo...increase it's strength/constitution BEFORE you increase its size.I don't think it works that way.
It can't work like that. You can take the large/huge evolution at 8/13 respectively and they cost 4/10 evolution points. You do not get 4 evolution points at level 8 nor the additional 6 at level 13. This means that you will be rebuilding your eidolon taking evolutions off to get the size increases. I don't think the game designers intended for the eidolon to be built in phases.
"Alright I'll give him claws, then rend, then a boost to strength, and then I'll make him large!"
pretty sure that stat boost is still going to cost you double :)
Improved natural weapon applies to a set of claws, I believe. It would be really weird if one claw did 1d6 damage and the other only did 1d4.
Remember that the reach evolution more clearly words that it is only one attack. Is it wierd that one attack is longer than the other? Remember that these are fantasical creatures, not your normal run of the mill animals. Also even in real life, take a look at a lobster, they have one claw that is stronger and larger than the other, thus would do more damage than the other one.
INA works with one type of natural attack. Bite, claw, slam, etc. Not one individual claw or bite (in the case of a 3 headed beast for example).
it seemed to me the summoner in the playtest was one of the debated character classes with some saying to powerful others saying not powerful enough - especially after the revised class came out
so what changes have been made and what do you think of the changes
I know a couple like if the summoner is unconcious or goes to sleep the eidolon goes back to home plane - what the? so no other class with a pet has this problem so is this just another nerf to a potentially good class?
summoners also lost the ability to use summon monster as a SLA unless the eidolon is not summoned - so another good ability wasted - I cant see my character ever using this ability unless emergency so another nerf?
what other changes are there & what are you opinions
I don't agree with the summons and the eidolon not being there at the same time. As long as the player is efficient, I dont think it is an issue.
If the player wants to buy armor for the eidolon it is ok also. One of them will most likely be short on gear though. Most of my games don't revolve around the player's taking long breaks. Kingmaker is the exception.
I will have to look over the evolutions. The main issue I had with them before was that they got too many attacks, which combined with pounce for too much damage.
I will probably remove the sharing hit point feature, but I will also not make the eidolon disappear when the summoner goes down.
I am anticipating that every weapon you use will count as one attack for your max attacks (so he'd only have 4 left, which he would use for his claws because they can trigger rend). For a cheesier combination of manufactured weapons and natural weapons see my post in the DPR olympics thread.
Depending on how you read it I guess, the rules flat out say weapon attacks dont count, and also says if you are at the max you cant buy more attacks... Where do you count the weapon into that limit then? When you buy the arms? The arms can hold two weapons, so wouldnt that count as two attacks then? It just doesnt work if you try to count weapons that it may or may not have, as that would limit the ability to even buy the arms to begin with as you potentially have 7 attack with that build and thus could not have bought the last evolution that allowed for more attacks.
It works on "one natural attack form"
So then you have to ask what the designer ment by the word 'form' and if it means all attacks with the same name, then why doesnt it continue the same wording for the last sentence?
2d6 goes to 2d8 ...
see bestiary page 315 for an example of the pathfinder progression, or page 114 from the PHB3.5
I am anticipating that every weapon you use will count as one attack for your max attacks (so he'd only have 4 left, which he would use for his claws because they can trigger rend). For a cheesier combination of manufactured weapons and natural weapons see my post in the DPR olympics thread.Depending on how you read it I guess, the rules flat out say weapon attacks dont count, and also says if you are at the max you cant buy more attacks... Where do you count the weapon into that limit then? When you buy the arms? The arms can hold two weapons, so wouldnt that count as two attacks then? It just doesnt work if you try to count weapons that it may or may not have, as that would limit the ability to even buy the arms to begin with as you potentially have 7 attack with that build and thus could not have bought the last evolution that allowed for more attacks.
See,
I treat it myself as 'How many attacks can the Eidelon make with a full action', rather than 'How many can he buy'. By doing so, there is no issue.Give him 10 arms and put a different weapon on each arm. That's fine. He just can't make more attacks in a round that his attack limit. I think this is a perfectly fine limitation. Then let those attacks be 4 weapons, 2 weapons and two natural attacks, or four natural attacks, or any combination of 4.
Just remember, mixing and matching weapon and natural makes all natural attacks secondary.
If it doesn't specifically say so, then yes, it does.Soo...increase it's strength/constitution BEFORE you increase its size.I don't think it works that way.
Dork is right. :) Always wanted to say that. LOL
It doesn't work like that. What it says in the APG is that the ability increase evolution costs 4 points for a large creature if you increase its STR or CON. It doesn't matter when you picked the evolution because you can change it at every level anyways.
Improved natural weapon applies to a set of claws, I believe. It would be really weird if one claw did 1d6 damage and the other only did 1d4.Remember that the reach evolution more clearly words that it is only one attack. Is it wierd that one attack is longer than the other? Remember that these are fantasical creatures, not your normal run of the mill animals. Also even in real life, take a look at a lobster, they have one claw that is stronger and larger than the other, thus would do more damage than the other one.
That doesn't make too much sense. It says choose one Nat attack form. Claws is a Nat attack form. It doesn't matter that the eidolon has four claws on him. It applies to all of them.
That doesn't make too much sense. It says choose one Nat attack form. Claws is a Nat attack form. It doesn't matter that the eidolon has four claws on him. It applies to all of them.
The final sentence uses singular instead of plural, the first part using less common meanings of 'form' can be singular and thus match the final sentence.
The elemental attack evolution gives d6 damage to all attacks for only 2 points, so adding one damage step to one type of attack isnt really overpowered, but the wording on it is messed up. I used it as going to all attacks of a given type, such as claw. It can be really overpowered when doing that though as when you stack enough size increases it does more than a d6 per attack and thus is more than the elemental attack for less points.
That doesn't make too much sense. It says choose one Nat attack form. Claws is a Nat attack form. It doesn't matter that the eidolon has four claws on him. It applies to all of them.The final sentence uses singular instead of plural, the first part using less common meanings of 'form' can be singular and thus match the final sentence.
The elemental attack evolution gives d6 damage to all attacks for only 2 points, so adding one damage step to one type of attack isnt really overpowered, but the wording on it is messed up. I used it as going to all attacks of a given type, such as claw. It can be really overpowered when doing that though as when you stack enough size increases it does more than a d6 per attack and thus is more than the elemental attack for less points.
Fortunately in that case it doesn't stack. It is only one step up per attack form. If you get it again, it applies to a different attack form. Doesn't seem bad to me at all, nor that powerful to be worth more than 1 point. Size increases are the thing that makes it look better (which you can't get until 8th level), not that evolution itself. Wording can be interpreted as poor, sure maybe. But that seems to be the theme of the APG. lol
I still think that should be left alone. You already take at least a -4 penalty to your attacks with multiple weapons. Which is balanced with any comparable fighter IMO. That and it is very expensive for all of those weapons as well.
I did have an idea about the eidolon holding like two or three bows. He could be like a turret. Haha.
A thing to consider about the whole 'multiple weapons' is the fact that, while the Bestiary has a Multiweapon Fighting Feat (which allows for fighting with multiple weapons following the same lessened penalties of Two-Weapon Fighting), there are absolutely no 'Improved Multiweapon Fighting' and 'Greater Multiweapon Fighting' feats.
The text for Multiweapon Fighting is:
"Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms."
So yes, we know how this feat works (and gives only a single attack for each off-hand), and is considered like Two-Weapon Fighing for Feat prerequisites.
The text for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, however, say:
"Benefit: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, you can only get a single extra attack with an off-hand weapon."
(please note the use of the singular)
"Benefit: You get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a –10 penalty."
(again, singular only)
Judging from a strict RAW reading (and even by a RAI reading, I might add), Imp. Two-Weapon Fighing and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting allow only a SINGLE off-hand arm to make additional iterative attacks.
All other arms can make a single attack at best. Moreover, if any one of the off-hand weapons are not light, all attacks suffer from a -4 penalty. And since Imp. Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting cannot be taken multiple times (in order to allow another additional arm to make iterative attacks), those attacks would still be less optimal than an "Improved Natural Attack (via Feat), Improved Damage (via Evolution) Energized (via Evolution)" attack - since you have to provide the weapons, you have to take additional extra limbs, you have to take the Weapon Training Evolution (maybe even the advanced version for Martial weapons) AND you have to pump up the Dexterity for the Improved and Greater feats, just to 'squeeze in' additional non-iterative (most of them anyway) weapon attacks.
Some people could obviously disagree from my reading of the two feats above, but even if you consider it an house rule (I don't believe it is such a case but oh, well, let's say it is) it drastically reduces the abuse of such a build.
EDIT: an example from the Bestiary, in this case, is the Marilith; she possesses the Multiweapon Mastery special ability which allows her to ignore penalties for fighting with multiple weapons, but she has the Dex prerequisites to eventually take the feat chain; the fact that the devs didn't gave her such a 'cheesy' combo, although she is the epitome of multiweapon fighting, leads me to think that such a combo should not be possible at all - or again, even expending three feats, it would allow her to benefit from iterative attacks with one off-hand weapon only.
Just my 2c.
Is it possible for someone with multiple limbs to pick up Multi-Weapon Fighting, Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and use all of them?
For example, a 4-armed monster wielding shortswords makes 2 attacks from his high base attack bonus. He then makes 3 more attacks thanks to Multi-Weapon Fighting (one for each additional arm wielding a weapon). Then he finishes up by making 2 additional attacks for ONE of his off-hands (for Improved/Greater Two-Weapon Fighting).
In the end, he would have made 7 attacks with his shortswords, all at -2 to hit. Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't get counted since its bonus attack is subsumed by Multi-Weapon Fighting's bonus attacks.
Yeah, you can use ITWF and GTWF with Multi-Weapon Fighting, just remember that you only get one extra attack for Improved and Greater, not one with each off-hand.
EDIT: And you don't need to get TWF, either. Multi-Weapon Fighting counts as it for creatures with more than two arms.
And you don't need to get TWF, either. Multi-Weapon Fighting counts as it for creatures with more than two arms.
Nice!
Is it at all possible to build a worthwhile Eidolon that doesn't go for the massive number of attacks?
All in what you call worthwhile,this is never the same person to person
All in what you call worthwhile,this is never the same person to person
Yep, pretty much.
If by "worthwhile" you mean "max damage", then no, you pretty much have to maximize your number of attacks and choose Large and Huge ASAP.
If you just mean "effective in combat", then you don't need to spam attacks and you don't really need Huge (although it certainly helps).
If you mean "fun roleplaying element", then it really doesn't matter which evolutions you choose.