Lets take level half elf summoner 4 with bonus evolution points. Quadraped Eidolon, limbs(arms)x2, claws(legs), pounce, weapon training. Feat : multiweapon fighting. Thats 7 attacks at level 4, on a charge.
Will do just fine at low level I'd say ... in fact it's still broken.
That's pretty much the problem. Most people who thought the summoner was overpowered had an issue with either A) # of pets at once or B) # of attacks per level.
None of the changes affected B at all, so it's still an issue.
Lets take level half elf summoner 4 with bonus evolution points. Quadraped Eidolon, limbs(arms)x2, claws(legs), pounce, weapon training. Feat : multiweapon fighting. Thats 7 attacks at level 4, on a charge.
Will do just fine at low level I'd say ... in fact it's still broken.
That's pretty much the problem. Most people who thought the summoner was overpowered had an issue with either A) # of pets at once or B) # of attacks per level.
None of the changes affected B at all, so it's still an issue.
Almost got ninjaed there. Yea nothing was done to fix some of the bigest problems with the class. Its like they closed their eyes when they swung the nerf bat. But those that dont feel the need to exploit holes in the rules have already been ignoring the whole weapon + natural attacks thing to bypass the attack limit.
The problem is the class is supposed to be about summoning. It is kind of their name. Druids and wizards can both do exactly this, but now the class named after it is worse than both of them at it. 1 gets to do it spontaneously, and the other gets a boost to durration. Neither of them have restrictions on number, and both have more spells/day than the summoner and have other features.2) "I can't have 4+ mini's to move about, control, and attack with every turn I get?! You guys suck, get a new job!"
-Come on guys, really? They took away 1 monster for you to control on your turn. And guess what, you can have it back if you sacrifice a spell slot! On top of that is cuts down on your prep time for combat too! I don't see the complain here really. The turns of the players with multiple pieces to move, and multiple rounds to take during their own turns is already a problem and having 4 move/standard actions to make pretty much every turn not only takes time but it makes other players feel like they aren't doing as much... because they AREN'T.
But the summoner can have that many summons out ... he just has to do it with spell slots just like everyone else. And people I think are forgetting that the druid with an animal companion has less spell slots per level than other full casters, so when he summons multiple creatures per combat, that is him using up his ability to cast other spells.
Now its not fun to have to change your character around but it was a play test, people. The same thing happened in general when the core book came out. Everyone had to rejigger their characters somewhat. If you play in a home game, you don't have to change anything unless your GM requires you to.
The problem is the class is supposed to be about summoning. It is kind of their name. Druids and wizards can both do exactly this, but now the class named after it is worse than both of them at it. 1 gets to do it spontaneously, and the other gets a boost to durration. Neither of them have restrictions on number, and both have more spells/day than the summoner and have other features.2) "I can't have 4+ mini's to move about, control, and attack with every turn I get?! You guys suck, get a new job!"
-Come on guys, really? They took away 1 monster for you to control on your turn. And guess what, you can have it back if you sacrifice a spell slot! On top of that is cuts down on your prep time for combat too! I don't see the complain here really. The turns of the players with multiple pieces to move, and multiple rounds to take during their own turns is already a problem and having 4 move/standard actions to make pretty much every turn not only takes time but it makes other players feel like they aren't doing as much... because they AREN'T.But the summoner can have that many summons out ... he just has to do it with spell slots just like everyone else. And people I think are forgetting that the druid with an animal companion has less spell slots per level than other full casters, so when he summons multiple creatures per combat, that is him using up his ability to cast other spells.
Now its not fun to have to change your character around but it was a play test, people. The same thing happened in general when the core book came out. Everyone had to rejigger their characters somewhat. If you play in a home game, you don't have to change anything unless your GM requires you to.
Yes, he can spend his valueable spells known on summons and be worse at it than a wizard. The druid does not have fewer spell slots than other full casters. He has the same number as a wizard with familiar. It may be 1 less/lvl than a cleric from no domain, or 1 total fewer than an arcane bonded wizard, but thats not a big deal. He still has more spells than a summoner, and gets higher level summons earlier.
Yes, he can spend his valueable spells known on summons and be worse at it than a wizard. The druid does not have fewer spell slots than other full casters. He has the same number as a wizard with familiar. It may be 1 less/lvl than a cleric from no domain, or 1 total fewer than an arcane bonded wizard, but thats not a big deal. He still has more spells than a summoner, and gets higher level summons earlier.
There is also the extra slot from a wizards school (with the exception of universalists). And he gets an early entry buff for summons that get pushed off because of his bard progression so it amounts to about the same. However, he has got his eidolon or SLA which is on top of what he can summon by casts. Sure, he may be off on a level appropriate summon by 1 level or so, but He can have 1 more summon out than any other caster provided he has spent a spells known slot at each spell level.
At level 10 they only get Summon V which does suck a little, but its the only one that is out of whack. They get Summon monster IX at level 16 which is better than a comparable wizard, if my information is correct. Hell I'd just house rule summon monster V to summon monster VI and call it a day.
|
1) "OMG, My buddy goes poof when I pass out? How lame wtfnerfbat?!"
-I understand that you feel as if though your shinny new toy is being taken away from you once you drop below 0, get slept, or knocked unconscious. I think one of the big reasons for this change was that during combat, the focus is almost always completely on eidolon. That is a problem, it is like role playing your sword or spells. That is what the thing is when you boil it down. This was a problem in the playtest and I personally don't think it even does enough to fix it in the current state. There SHOULD be an element of danger for you and this helps shift the focus back more towards the PC and less so to the weapon. Plus, are you really going to complain that you have to spend 10 minutes in the morning to summon it? Really? When was the last time you played a non-spontaneous caster?
I'm sorry, but after a whole lot of good constructive discussion here, I find these type of comments totally not needed, and maybe I'm tossing out the trollbait, but I have to comment.
First off, the focus always was meant to be on the eidolon and the summoned creatures...that is kind of the point of the class...it is called "Summoner" after all. And it's not like RPing your sword or spells (which, actually isn't really a bad thing anyway)...it's like RPing your companion or familiar, or a cohort.
The focus is always on the PC -- as a summoner, the eidolon is meant to be just as much "the PC" as the summoner himself. And yes, we will bring up that we have to spend 10 minutes to summon him when he can't be around when we, the Summoners, wish to....summon...other things via our big SLA.
And you know when the last time I play a non-spontaneous caster was? Who cares, we're talking about a spontaneous one.
2) "I can't have 4+ mini's to move about, control, and attack with every turn I get?! You guys suck, get a new job!"
-Come on guys, really? They took away 1 monster for you to control on your turn. And guess what, you can have it back if you sacrifice a spell slot! On top of that is cuts down on your prep time for combat too! I don't see the complain here really. The turns of the players with multiple pieces to move, and multiple rounds to take during their own turns is already a problem and having 4 move/standard actions to make pretty much every turn not only takes time but it makes other players feel like they aren't doing as much... because they AREN'T.
It never was about controlling 4+ minis (which yes, you are right, we still can do if we sacrifice a precious spell slot for a spell we shouldn't have to cast), it was about SUMMONING. And you know what, if a player gets upset because they only get one or two attacks because they are playing a fighter or pally, or what not...I'm sorry, but that's the class you chose. You will have to accept that casters that can summon or haste or whatever may get extra turns. That is the game.
3) Low health
-I actually kinda sympathize here, they do have some HP problems, but it's nothing toughness or a few defensive evolutions can't fix. Plus, if he dies it's not that big of a deal, he comes back tomorrow and you have a whole SLEW of SLA's to use in combat while your little buddy is resting up on his home plane.
I actually do agree with you on this one. The not having max HP at first kinda sucks, but so it does for all companions, so meh, I can deal with that. Another point of CON, a little more nat AC, or ability to wear armor of some sort would help a little, but again, there are ways around that (Toughness, dodge, mage armor, amulets, bracers, etc.)
The summoners needed MAJOR nerfs from the playtest version
You know, I'm honestly getting tired of hearing this...they needed some reigning in on a few things, but they did not need MAJOR nerfs. As has been said, nearly every class can be broken, and yes, certain aspects of the summoner are easier to break than others...just as certain areas of druid, fighter, cleric, pally and others are as well. But in all honesty, some of those things are still around for a summoner, while things that were good and not broken got nerfed.
And one last item from another post:
Unless this is for Pathfinder Society (which I don't think you could make a beta class character for), then why can't you go on using the rules you made the character with.
For me specifically at least, it is for PFS -- you could use playtest rules with the expectation that you have to use the new rules once they come out.
Once again, I'm not trying to flame Paizo staff or anything like that...I am really just giving my feedback. The book overall is great, I love the fact that we have 6 new classes and a crap-ton of feats and spells. But that doesn't mean I can't express my thoughts and discuss those thoughts with other summoners out there either.
The summoners needed MAJOR nerfs from the playtest versionYou know, I'm honestly getting tired of hearing this...they needed some reigning in on a few things, but they did not need MAJOR nerfs. As has been said, nearly every class can be broken, and yes, certain aspects of the summoner are easier to break than others...just as certain areas of druid, fighter, cleric, pally and others are as well. But in all honesty, some of those things are still around for a summoner, while things that were good and not broken got nerfed.
There is a specific way the summoner was broken and it was a one: the action economy. Summoned monsters have a rounds per level duration for this reason. 4+ SLAs with minutes per level duration + eidolon was beyond the pale. It allowed summoners to dominate combat in a big way. This was understood by optimizers on this board who, before the summoner, were already calling the conjuration school the most powerful spell school for this reason.
I have about 4 pages of customizations (spread through about 10 pages of notes and such) I'd been working up for the summoner and eidelon for my home game.
As soon as I finish compiling them I'll put them up over on PathfinderDB for anyone who's interested (under an OGL).
I actually considered compiling them into a PDF and trying to get them up for sale, but after looking into it, I'd need document numbers, and business licenses and other stuff that's too expensive to justify.
The summoners needed MAJOR nerfs from the playtest versionYou know, I'm honestly getting tired of hearing this...they needed some reigning in on a few things, but they did not need MAJOR nerfs. As has been said, nearly every class can be broken, and yes, certain aspects of the summoner are easier to break than others...just as certain areas of druid, fighter, cleric, pally and others are as well. But in all honesty, some of those things are still around for a summoner, while things that were good and not broken got nerfed.
There is a specific way the summoner was broken and it was a one: the action economy. Summoned monsters have a rounds per level duration for this reason. 4+ SLAs with minutes per level duration + eidolon was beyond the pale. It allowed summoners to dominate combat in a big way. This was understood by optimizers on this board who, before the summoner, were already calling the conjuration school the most powerful spell school for this reason.
ok, how many fights go past 5 rounds? At lvl 5, a druid can get more summons, and they will last the entire fight. It wasn't 4+ summons. It was 1 extra in the beta, so you got 1 extra from summon, unless you went with lower level ones which are usualy pointless.
The summoners needed MAJOR nerfs from the playtest versionYou know, I'm honestly getting tired of hearing this...they needed some reigning in on a few things, but they did not need MAJOR nerfs. As has been said, nearly every class can be broken, and yes, certain aspects of the summoner are easier to break than others...just as certain areas of druid, fighter, cleric, pally and others are as well. But in all honesty, some of those things are still around for a summoner, while things that were good and not broken got nerfed.
There is a specific way the summoner was broken and it was a one: the action economy. Summoned monsters have a rounds per level duration for this reason. 4+ SLAs with minutes per level duration + eidolon was beyond the pale. It allowed summoners to dominate combat in a big way. This was understood by optimizers on this board who, before the summoner, were already calling the conjuration school the most powerful spell school for this reason.
Certainly the summoner had the action economy in his favor, but isnt that the point of having minions? After all no individual summon compares to a full fledged character, it was the combination that made the summoner good. Given that the SLA's + Eidolon make up the bulk of the summoners abilities at low levels, and just most of them at higher levels, its not beyond the pale, it just adds up to what a single strong character can do. Even with A summon, eidolon and the summoner, you are still outdamaged by a melee focused front liner. So what exactly is the problem here? That the summoner player took lots of actions? He wasnt doing more, just in more pieces.
And it isnt just summons that make conjuration the strongest school, its also battlefield control and teleportation, but i guess that is besides the point.
|
|
Great points Kolo...and speaking for myself, I don't think I ever had more than my eidolon and one summons out...honestly it was almost always better to have the one higher level than 2-5 lesser.
Now, I did have visions of the character from Overlord (video game) or the Darkness guy with a horde of minions doing my bidding, but that's beside the point, cuz I could still do that if I really wanted. :)
ok, how many fights go past 5 rounds? At lvl 5, a druid can get more summons, and they will last the entire fight. It wasn't 4+ summons. It was 1 extra in the beta, so you got 1 extra from summon, unless you went with lower level ones which are usualy pointless.The summoners needed MAJOR nerfs from the playtest versionYou know, I'm honestly getting tired of hearing this...they needed some reigning in on a few things, but they did not need MAJOR nerfs. As has been said, nearly every class can be broken, and yes, certain aspects of the summoner are easier to break than others...just as certain areas of druid, fighter, cleric, pally and others are as well. But in all honesty, some of those things are still around for a summoner, while things that were good and not broken got nerfed.
There is a specific way the summoner was broken and it was a one: the action economy. Summoned monsters have a rounds per level duration for this reason. 4+ SLAs with minutes per level duration + eidolon was beyond the pale. It allowed summoners to dominate combat in a big way. This was understood by optimizers on this board who, before the summoner, were already calling the conjuration school the most powerful spell school for this reason.
In my experience fights tend to be shorter in lower levels than the higher ones. The last couple RL fights I have been in have lasted past 10 rounds easy. It all depends on the factors, though. Those fights were outdoors so there was a lot more movement and positioning that needed to be done.
As for the number of summons, I was referring to the original playtest version that highlighted the problem of the economy of actions. Admittedly I could have been more clear.
The summoners needed MAJOR nerfs from the playtest versionYou know, I'm honestly getting tired of hearing this...they needed some reigning in on a few things, but they did not need MAJOR nerfs. As has been said, nearly every class can be broken, and yes, certain aspects of the summoner are easier to break than others...just as certain areas of druid, fighter, cleric, pally and others are as well. But in all honesty, some of those things are still around for a summoner, while things that were good and not broken got nerfed.
There is a specific way the summoner was broken and it was a one: the action economy. Summoned monsters have a rounds per level duration for this reason. 4+ SLAs with minutes per level duration + eidolon was beyond the pale. It allowed summoners to dominate combat in a big way. This was understood by optimizers on this board who, before the summoner, were already calling the conjuration school the most powerful spell school for this reason.
Certainly the summoner had the action economy in his favor, but isnt that the point of having minions? After all no individual summon compares to a full fledged character, it was the combination that made the summoner good. Given that the SLA's + Eidolon make up the bulk of the summoners abilities at low levels, and just most of them at higher levels, its not beyond the pale, it just adds up to what a single strong character can do. Even with A summon, eidolon and the summoner, you are still outdamaged by a melee focused front liner. So what exactly is the problem here? That the summoner player took lots of actions? He wasnt doing more, just in more pieces.
And it isnt just summons that make conjuration the strongest school, its also battlefield control and teleportation, but i guess that is besides the point.
Well my point was that the action economy is the most impacting way to have an effect on combat, as any caster with enchantments knows. Our wizard in the last RL fight proved the awesomeness that is the confusion spell. He practically soloed 3 stone giants + 1 giant war-mount, one of them with significant class levels, for 9 rounds. Its was devastating.
Now there is some truth to the fact that a summoner compared to a druid is not quite strong, numbers wise. But I still think the actual comparison remains to be seen. Druids have a more limited list of creatures they can summon, with less special effects and almost no spell-like abilities to abuse. Their companions don't have the variable options for evolutions that eidolons do and when they die in combat, they are dead. A druid is full caster, though, so it remains to be seen how the summoner really compares at high levels where the druid really pulls ahead on spells.
Lets take level half elf summoner 4 with bonus evolution points. Quadraped Eidolon, limbs(arms)x2, claws(legs), pounce, weapon training. Feat : multiweapon fighting. Thats 7 attacks at level 4, on a charge.
Will do just fine at low level I'd say ... in fact it's still broken.
Chart says max natural attacks at level 4 is 4. I'm guessing the other 3 are from weapons.
Fix: Ban Multi-weapon Fighting?
Well my point was that the action economy is the most impacting way to have an effect on combat, as any caster with enchantments knows. Our wizard in the last RL fight proved the awesomeness that is the confusion spell. He practically soloed 3 stone giants + 1 giant war-mount, one of them with significant class levels, for 9 rounds. Its was devastating.
Now there is some truth to the fact that a summoner compared to a druid is not quite strong, numbers wise. But I still think the actual comparison remains to be seen. Druids have a more limited list of creatures they can summon, with less special effects and almost no spell-like abilities to abuse. Their companions don't have the variable options for evolutions that eidolons do and when they die in combat, they are dead. A druid is full caster, though, so it remains to be seen how the summoner really compares at high levels where the druid really pulls ahead on spells.
Actually it doesnt remain to be seen for me. When i playtested the summoner, the druid was what I compared it to.
As to your points.
1. Summons (natures ally vs monstere) at low levels it didnt make a difference, at mid to high levels the druids full spellcasting was so much more useful that his summons were far less important then actual spells, which was not the case for the summoner, where spells were still almost exclusively buffs (with the exception of black tentacles which is and always will be awesome). Basically natures ally + full casting > summon monster + 3/4 casting.
2. While the druid's companion doesnt come back when it's dead, it can call on a new one with a 24 hour ritual. A summoner (in the playtest) also had to wait a day to recall his eidolon after it was killed, so thats relatively even.
3. Like i said the full caster is a big deal and will make a huge impact at higher levels. That and a wild shaping focused druid with natural spell + large cat companion will rip the throat out of a summoner of equal level regardless of how the eidolon is built. Wild shape adds alot to the overall power of hte druid, as does full casting.
I did both a head to head series of tests and using both a summoner and druid in the same party. An optimized druid (mostly following Treantmonk's suggestions for a wildshaping druid) made a signficantly larger impact on encounters and won the majority of head to head combats. The only time the summoner won head to head was making the best use of black tentacles and wall of fire. And really that is just the power of those specific spells then anything specific to the summoner.
I am confident that is i did a similar battery of tests with the apg version of the summoner, it wouldnt be much of a contest.
If your DM is by-passing an Eidolon and the front line fighters to take out your summoner, he is an evil and vindictive DM and you should tell him so. I always run encounters based on who is the most threatening. Sure sometimes that is the caster in the back, but if everyone works together then that means I have to fight my way past the melee fighters before I could even come close to hitting the casters.
Yes, ambushes can happen, you could be surrounded on all sides and not having your best ability when you immediately wake up sucks a lot.
I personally hate it when people compare classes using some imaginary power concept. Yes, Wizards are a very powerful class...at mid to high levels. Druids as well. But it is all a matter of perspective. A Wizard can and will defeat any other class if he has proper time to prepare. If you eliminate that aspect, the Wizard becomes one of the weakest classes in the game. This is why I believe the nerfs to the Summoner were made. I'm not saying I 100% agree with them, but I can see the logic behind them.
As far as, "wasting a precious spell slot" for the summon Eidolon ability. I can think of at least two ways off the top of my head where I would take and utilize this spell. There is of course the obvious one where I can summon him if I have recovered from unconsciousness. And then there is the fact that should something kill my eidolon, I can bring him back next round with at least half health. If you are creative, I'm sure you can come up with more.
To me, I think most of the complaints about the changes is that it no longer makes the Summoner a solo class. The class now has to rely on other party members just like every other class. And if you think about it, that is the point of the game.
Lets take level half elf summoner 4 with bonus evolution points. Quadraped Eidolon, limbs(arms)x2, claws(legs), pounce, weapon training. Feat : multiweapon fighting. Thats 7 attacks at level 4, on a charge.
Will do just fine at low level I'd say ... in fact it's still broken.
Chart says max natural attacks at level 4 is 4. I'm guessing the other 3 are from weapons.
Fix: Ban Multi-weapon Fighting?
Also note that all of your Natural Attacks are treated as Secondary Attacks if you use a manufactured weapon at all during your pounce. (-5 to hit, 1/2 Str damage) This is according to page 302 of the Bestiary. I sure as heck wouldn't take them. *shrugs*
Actually it doesnt remain to be seen for me. When i playtested the summoner, the druid was what I compared it to.
As to your points.
1. Summons (natures ally vs monstere) at low levels it didnt make a difference, at mid to high levels the druids full spellcasting was so much more useful that his summons were far less important then actual spells, which was not the case for the summoner, where spells were still almost exclusively buffs (with the exception of black tentacles which is and always will be awesome). Basically natures ally + full casting > summon monster + 3/4 casting.2. While the druid's companion doesnt come back when it's dead, it can call on a new one with a 24 hour ritual. A summoner (in the playtest) also had to wait a day to recall his eidolon after it was killed, so thats relatively even.
3. Like i said the full caster is a big deal and will make a huge impact at higher levels. That and a wild shaping focused druid with natural spell + large cat companion will rip the throat out of a summoner of equal level regardless of how the...
1. I'll agree to this. However, see below.
2. Sure, but now instead of waiting until the next day, it's just a 1 minute break after combat is over.
3. Sure Druids have full casting, but only a handful of their spells are worth anything. Those handful are pretty powerful, but they have less of a selection than any other class. The Summoner may focus mainly on buff spells, but its not like he can only cast them on the eidolon. Besides, don't Summoners get Sanctuary as a 1st level spell?
Besides, when is a Summoner going to have to fight a fully optimized Druid by himself anyways? This is why I hate these arguements. Because it's not about the class, it's about the special abilities this class has over mine. The game was not designed for PC Fighters to take on PC Wizards. It was designed for a group of individuals to take on Monsters and other creatures. If your DM is constantly putting you up against one on one encounters you can't win because of optimization, consider switching DMs.
If your DM is by-passing an Eidolon and the front line fighters to take out your summoner, he is an evil and vindictive DM and you should tell him so. I always run encounters based on who is the most threatening. Sure sometimes that is the caster in the back, but if everyone works together then that means I have to fight my way past the melee fighters before I could even come close to hitting the casters.
If your DM isn't, he's playing the bad guys as insane, or stupid.
Let me point out what I mean.
Summoners are a known thing in the world, they aren't 'new'. They also have a giant glowing letter. Even if they didn't, a summoned creature is rather obviously not normal (it specifically states they look fantastical and can't exactly copy an existing creature).
Eidelon's are dangerous. If you could take a druid out of the fight by killing his wolf, you would. The same applies to the eidelon. Tack on to that the fact the summoner is healing the eidelon, buffing him and other party members, and he's pretty much a strong candidate for taking out asap.
And you better believe that players are going to be saying 'Geek the Summoner!' when they run into one. That's going to be a primary strategy for player characters. So the DM not doing the same to the party is him playing insane or stupid NPCs. Some NPCs are, granted, insane or stupid, but those should be exceptions not the rule.
1. I'll agree to this. However, see below.2. Sure, but now instead of waiting until the next day, it's just a 1 minute break after combat is over.
I am refering to the playtest version where you had to wait 24 hours if your eidolon died. So while still less of a problem then a druids loss, it isnt as big a gulf
3. Sure Druids have full casting, but only a handful of their spells are worth anything. Those handful are pretty powerful, but they have less of a selection than any other class. The Summoner may focus mainly on buff spells, but its not like he can only cast them on the eidolon. Besides, don't Summoners get Sanctuary as a 1st level spell?
I think most optimizers would argue with you here, Treantmonk for instance has 2 kinds of druids one of which focuses exclusively on spells. The druid has lots of great buffs and a bunch of good battlefield control spells. the only thing the druid isnt good at is damage spells, which are suboptimal anyway.
Besides, when is a Summoner going to have to fight a fully optimized Druid by himself anyways? This is why I hate these arguements. Because it's not about the class, it's about the special abilities this class has over mine. The game was not designed for PC Fighters to take on PC Wizards. It was designed for a group of individuals to take on Monsters and other creatures. If your DM is constantly putting you up against one on one encounters you can't win because of optimization, consider switching DMs.
Again, i said this was based on PLAYTESTS. Of which there were 2 kinds. 1 was a head to head fight druid vs summoner, just as an experiment. The other had 2 parties of which the only difference was switching out the druid for the summoner and vice versa. My argument was that compared to it's closest analog the druid, the playtest version of the summoner wasnt overpowered, and didnt need nerfing, it just needed fixing for the broken parts.
So, if a summoner is built around riding a flying eidolon, and at any point in flight the summoner is knocked out (by damage, spell, etc), the eidolon vanishes and the summoner plummets to their likely death?If you're a mage riding on a Pegasus and you've taken enough damage to knock you out. (especially being a Pathfinder mage) it's very likely that the Pegasus itself has taken enough damage to either kill it outright or that it too is taking the long dive.
Flying is supposed to be RISKY. Deal with that. If you're smart you're going to be packing a featherfall ring or some such item that triggers when you're taking a plunge.
I think the point is not the eidelon being dead. That's an accepted part of flying.
The point was that if the rider is knocked unconscious or put to sleep, he is dead. No saves, no nothing, he falls to his death.
That doesn't happen with a pegasus or any other flying pet (note that you can tie yourself into the saddle with other pets).
You seem to miss the point if you are taking that much damage, you're probably tied to the saddle of a falling pegasus because it's probably taking just as much. You're just as dead.
I think the point is not the eidelon being dead. That's an accepted part of flying.The point was that if the rider is knocked unconscious or put to sleep, he is dead. No saves, no nothing, he falls to his death.
That doesn't happen with a pegasus or any other flying pet (note that you can tie yourself into the saddle with other pets).
Uhm,
No, you appear to be missing the point. The point was that you don't have to take a single HP of damage to die. Any spell effect that you fail your save on and go to sleep or are knocked out by kills you.It's basically all save or suck spells turn into save or die spells if you are a summoner flying on your eidelon.
It's basically all save or suck spells turn into save or die spells if you are a summoner flying on your eidelon.Is this the "Rain arrows from the clouds!" type of Summoner or the "Stay just out of reach and stab them with a lance!" type of Summoner?
In my game it's the lance guy. However, that is completely and utterly irrelevant as we're talking about spells here, most of which are ranged?
The same applies to the arrow guy of course, spells are usually ranged as well.
Also note that all of your Natural Attacks are treated as Secondary Attacks if you use a manufactured weapon at all during your pounce. (-5 to hit, 1/2 Str damage)Only -2 with multiattack ...
And +2 for Charge
At higher levels magic weapons have some obvious advantages ... can't get magic weapon abilities on natural weapons! For instance Pathfinder didn't fix Spell Storing (why didn't they make activation a swift action???) so that allows lots of abuse with lots of attacks.
Only if you DM allows you to break the game, which he should not.
|
It's basically all save or suck spells turn into save or die spells if you are a summoner flying on your eidelon.Is this the "Rain arrows from the clouds!" type of Summoner or the "Stay just out of reach and stab them with a lance!" type of Summoner?In my game it's the lance guy. However, that is completely and utterly irrelevant as we're talking about spells here, most of which are ranged?
The same applies to the arrow guy of course, spells are usually ranged as well.
How is determining which type of flying Eidolon Summoner irrelevant when the save or suck spells turn into save or die spells? The lance type is going to be much closer to the ground and thus take less or even no falling damage if he falls asleep/unconscious in the saddle.
|
|
If your DM is by-passing an Eidolon and the front line fighters to take out your summoner, he is an evil and vindictive DM and you should tell him so. I always run encounters based on who is the most threatening. Sure sometimes that is the caster in the back, but if everyone works together then that means I have to fight my way past the melee fighters before I could even come close to hitting the casters.
If your DM isn't, he's playing the bad guys as insane, or stupid.
Let me point out what I mean.
Summoners are a known thing in the world, they aren't 'new'. They also have a giant glowing letter. Even if they didn't, a summoned creature is rather obviously not normal (it specifically states they look fantastical and can't exactly copy an existing creature).
Eidelon's are dangerous. If you could take a druid out of the fight by killing his wolf, you would. The same applies to the eidelon. Tack on to that the fact the summoner is healing the eidelon, buffing him and other party members, and he's pretty much a strong candidate for taking out asap.
There is a minuscule difference between targeting the summoner and targeting any other caster. Yes, other summoned creatures stick around, but ultimately the thread level of any caster goes down vastly when they are unconscious. Druid included.
This has been an issue for wizards, and clerics for a long time, party tactics deals with it. Summoners have good defensive buffs, dimension door, invisibility, and flight to deal with evading enemies. Alternately the summoner can let them come to him then transpose himself with him eidolon without even provoking an AoO (At 8th level).
And you better believe that players are going to be saying 'Geek the Summoner!' when they run into one. That's going to be a primary strategy for player characters. So the DM not doing the same to the party is him playing insane or stupid NPCs. Some NPCs are, granted, insane or stupid, but those should be exceptions not the rule.
Just like they say "Geek the Wizard" when they see one, or "Geek the Druid" because it's smart tactics.
How is determining which type of flying Eidolon Summoner irrelevant when the save or suck spells turn into save or die spells? The lance type is going to be much closer to the ground and thus take less or even no falling damage if he falls asleep/unconscious in the saddle.It's basically all save or suck spells turn into save or die spells if you are a summoner flying on your eidelon.Is this the "Rain arrows from the clouds!" type of Summoner or the "Stay just out of reach and stab them with a lance!" type of Summoner?In my game it's the lance guy. However, that is completely and utterly irrelevant as we're talking about spells here, most of which are ranged?
The same applies to the arrow guy of course, spells are usually ranged as well.
Ok, I grant you that. However, I must also point out that enemies fly. In fact, the lance guy in my campaign had his eidelon taken out from under him at 1 mile up by another flying lancer. Could have just as easily been a flying mage with invisibility sphere, etc. The point is, no other class loses a major class feature if it falls asleep for 1 round, is knocked to -1 hp for one round, or is knocked unconscious for one round.
The druid does not lose his spellcasting ability, the wizard doesn't lose his spell book, the sorcerer doesn't lose his bloodline abilities.
Considering how often people go up and down in combats, this amounts to basically stripping the fighter of his armor everytime he goes to -1 hitpoint.
If you don't mind that, that's fine. Personally, I think it is a crying shame and way too big a nerf. Honestly, I don't mind most of the nerfs, but the items and 'poof' if asleep/unconscious is really just overkill to me. You obviously don't agree. That's fine. It doesn't invalidate my opinion, just as my opinion doesn't invalidate yours.
There is a minuscule difference between targeting the summoner and targeting any other caster. Yes, other summoned creatures stick around, but ultimately the thread level of any caster goes down vastly when they are unconscious. Druid included.This has been an issue for wizards, and clerics for a long time, party tactics deals with it. Summoners have good defensive buffs, dimension door, invisibility, and flight to deal with evading enemies. Alternately the summoner can let them come to him then transpose himself with him eidolon without even provoking an AoO (At 8th level).
I never said it was much different. In fact, I agree, casters are priority targets. I was responding to the OPs contention that bad guys should fight through the front line fighters to get to the casters and not try to bypass them. That was the stupid tactics I was up in arms about.
Replace 'Summoner' with 'Druid' or 'Sorcerer' and the tactics are still dumb, fighting the tanks to get through to the cannons.
If your DM is by-passing an Eidolon and the front line fighters to take out your summoner, he is an evil and vindictive DM and you should tell him so. I always run encounters based on who is the most threatening. Sure sometimes that is the caster in the back, but if everyone works together then that means I have to fight my way past the melee fighters before I could even come close to hitting the casters.
If your DM isn't, he's playing the bad guys as insane, or stupid.
Let me point out what I mean.
Summoners are a known thing in the world, they aren't 'new'. They also have a giant glowing letter. Even if they didn't, a summoned creature is rather obviously not normal (it specifically states they look fantastical and can't exactly copy an existing creature).
Eidelon's are dangerous. If you could take a druid out of the fight by killing his wolf, you would. The same applies to the eidelon. Tack on to that the fact the summoner is healing the eidelon, buffing him and other party members, and he's pretty much a strong candidate for taking out asap.
And you better believe that players are going to be saying 'Geek the Summoner!' when they run into one. That's going to be a primary strategy for player characters. So the DM not doing the same to the party is him playing insane or stupid NPCs. Some NPCs are, granted, insane or stupid, but those should be exceptions not the rule.
So basically it is insane for a DM to competely ignore the melee fighters to include the Eidolon to get to the Summoner because he obviously is the lynchpin in the party? Also, said party members are just going to let monsters and other bad guys run right by them so the Summoner can be taken out? I don't know what kind of games you play in but I don't want to be apart of them.
Just because the NPCs are all like "GET THE SUMMONER!" doesn't mean this will happen, or can not be prevented by a smart group. Unless you are playing a CE game, or your Summoner is a jerk I don't forsee any group purposely allowing NPCs to steamroll another player. Also, what exactly is the point of the Master's Call ability if not to use it to fend off potential attackers of the Summoner. What your complaint is that the Summoner cannot handle an entire group of NPCs by himself, which is exactly the point I was making when I said "if everyone works together". Roleplaying is a group activity, not a solo one.
Lastly, if as a DM you use a Summoner as a bad guy and allow the PCs to just bypass all of the stuff he'll throw out in front of himself to take him out, then that NPC deserves to be chumped.
There is a minuscule difference between targeting the summoner and targeting any other caster. Yes, other summoned creatures stick around, but ultimately the thread level of any caster goes down vastly when they are unconscious. Druid included.This has been an issue for wizards, and clerics for a long time, party tactics deals with it. Summoners have good defensive buffs, dimension door, invisibility, and flight to deal with evading enemies. Alternately the summoner can let them come to him then transpose himself with him eidolon without even provoking an AoO (At 8th level).
I never said it was much different. In fact, I agree, casters are priority targets. I was responding to the OPs contention that bad guys should fight through the front line fighters to get to the casters and not try to bypass them. That was the stupid tactics I was up in arms about.
Replace 'Summoner' with 'Druid' or 'Sorcerer' and the tactics are still dumb, fighting the tanks to get through to the cannons.
I'm a melee NPC. I need to take out the Summoner because then I kill two birds with one stone. However, there is a Plate wearing melee PC, a Leather wearing NPC and the Summoner's Eidolon between me and the Summoner which prevents me from charging the Summoner. I guess I should just run past the PCs and the Eidolon and take the AoO because I'll probably survive those.
This is the entire purpose of tanks. Otherwise why have them at all.
The only thing that really makes your argument worthwile are ranged NPCs. And while the NPCs are going "GET THE CASTERS!", the PCs will be going "GET THE RANGED!" and in the end all of the melee fighters will end up in the middle because no one wants to take an AoO.
Of course, yours is a special case because you have added an entire dimension, so I will concede and say that we both have merit in our arguments and call it a day.
JMD31,
I've been running games for over 20 years. Here is my experience in this and many other systems.
Targets have priorities.
First priority is anyone who can hit multiple people at once, or people who can bypass your defenses. This includes spell casters, AOE blasters, explosive tossing enemies, mentalists, etc.
Second priority is anyone who, by virtue of taking them down, you take someone else out of the fight. This includes (now) the summoner, one of the components robots of voltron, the guy who provides defense to all his budies, etc.
Third priority is the glass cannon, the guy who can pack a punch but who goes down fairly easy. This includes warmages, blasters, etc.
The last priority is straight up tanks. They take forever to take down (sort of their point) so you wale on them when you can, maneuver around them, and then move on to the higher priority targets.
You keep stating that people will 'take AOO to do it? I don't think so'. But yet, I see that in my game all the time. Players taking an AOO to get past a tank. I've had characters built to do just that (MAD Monk, Acrobat rogue, etc) who's whole concept is to tumble past the front line fighters and smash the casters. Add on to that the ranged archer builds, and the warmage cannons targeting spell casters first and leaving big baddies along until they can take out the bigger threats first, and yes, I believe that summoners will be high priority targets and that the eidelons will more often be banished than killed via the summoner being taken down.
EDIT: Please note it's very easy to bypass those big nasty tanks, just skirt their threatening area. Unless they can find a corridor to block, even the biggest nastiest tank can be laughed at by just going around his threatened area.
JMD31,
I've been running games for over 20 years. Here is my experience in this and many other systems.
Targets have priorities.
First priority is anyone who can hit multiple people at once, or people who can bypass your defenses. This includes spell casters, AOE blasters, explosive tossing enemies, mentalists, etc.
Second priority is anyone who, by virtue of taking them down, you take someone else out of the fight. This includes (now) the summoner, one of the components robots of voltron, the guy who provides defense to all his budies, etc.
Third priority is the glass cannon, the guy who can pack a punch but who goes down fairly easy. This includes warmages, blasters, etc.
The last priority is straight up tanks. They take forever to take down (sort of their point) so you wale on them when you can, maneuver around them, and then move on to the higher priority targets.
You keep stating that people will 'take AOO to do it? I don't think so'. But yet, I see that in my game all the time. Players taking an AOO to get past a tank. I've had characters built to do just that (MAD Monk, Acrobat rogue, etc) who's whole concept is to tumble past the front line fighters and smash the casters. Add on to that the ranged archer builds, and the warmage cannons targeting spell casters first and leaving big baddies along until they can take out the bigger threats first, and yes, I believe that summoners will be high priority targets and that the eidelons will more often be banished than killed via the summoner being taken down.
Again, I agreed with you. And I'm agreeing with you now. Also, I've been playing and running games for over 15 years now ;-).
Your point is that this makes them a bigger target. Which I would agree with if everyone and everything in the known universe knows about Magic and the Summoner class specifically. The truth is they do not, or they shouldn't. In most games players are required to make knowledge checks to know what something is. Most DMs will just be say what it is or the players will figure out just by the description. So most NPCs should work under the assumption that they do not always know what every class is or is capable of without making some kind of knowledge check. Without that check, the best most could hope for is "Kill the squishy ones in the back causing all of the hurting". So now the question is how do they accomplish this feat.
Well, if they happen to be resourceful NPCs, they'll have special abilities that will let them by-pass the meatshields blocking them from taking out the squishy guys. But otherwise they'll just have to rely on smashing the closest thing in front of them. Sure they could just go past them, but it then becomes a matter of preservation versus tactical thinking. I would have a Dwarf, or other intelligent race consider taking an AoO but not an Orc, or someother less than intelligent NPC who is probably too caught up in battle to be thinking tactically. This I'm sure you are well aware of.
I suppose the point I'm trying to make is what someone earlier in the thread was trying to make about using words like always. Just because there are some instances of this occuring, doesn't mean it will always occur. As your experience probably has told you, this game is highly adaptable and can be unpredictable at times.
Also, it would appear you are basing your views about this class as it stands alone and not how it interacts with a party which it was designed to do. I could be wrong about this, I've been known to be at times.
EDIT: Please note it's very easy to bypass those big nasty tanks, just skirt their threatening area. Unless they can find a corridor to block, even the biggest nastiest tank can be laughed at by just going around his threatened area.
Then the PCs are doing it wrong!
All joking aside, this is again a situational occurance for which the PCs have to compensate for. And if they cannot do so, then it is my belief they deserve whatever happens to them for not protecting their party members.
Case in point: I have recently started a new campaign and the PCs are 3rd level. The party consists of a Paladin, a Rogue, a Wizard, an Oracle, and a Summoner, who was using the playtest rules and having his eidolon keep watch throughout the night. When the Oracle was on watch a random encounter happened during, they were attacked by a Wyvern. Obviously, the Oracle woke everyone up. It was diving in to make a quick meal out of the PCs when the Oracle used an ability to damage it. Now instead of having it land and then charge in, I had it land next to the Oracle and attack him because he posed the most obvious threat to the thing. He was taken into negative hit points. The PCs now had to fight this thing with one person down and dying.
The point of this little story is that, things like this will happen to any character at various times. This has no bearing on the Oracle class at all, and the Oracle class is not somehow weaker because of it. You could name off 100 different scenarios and it doesn't mean that the Summoner class is any weaker because of any of them.
Now, do I agree with Paizo's decision? Not completely, but this is because I haven't playtested the class as much as they have or anyone else here has. But I do understand their logic for making such decisions. Sure there is still the brokenness of the multi-armed Eidolon, but most DMs will probably find some way to nix that...probably by targetting the summoner ;-).
One of the problems with text communications, hard to pick up on subtlety. :)
So, we both agree that summoners are squishy as wizards and sorcerers. :)
And I agree completely, it's all situational. However, my problem with it is really just that no other class loses a major class feature from being sleeped/dropped to -1 hp.
Any other class that drops to -1 hp and get's back up has full use of all their class abilities. None of them lose them outright. And, no other pet disappears if the pet's owner goes down. Honestly that's my most major beef with the changes to the summoner. I can live with everything else (I don't like the shared slots, but I can live with it as is if I need to). But that particular change, as small as it is, just sticks in my craw like a thumbtack in my big toe.
Director of Game Design
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ok folks,
Lets all just step back a bit. I have let this thread meander on for a while now without focus, with some saying broken, some saying busted, some saying unplayable, everybody having some aspect that did not sit well with them. Lets not argue about it. This class, more than any other in the game right now, is the hardest to define and it has clearly come to mean different things to different people with different concepts of what it should be.
I think most of the people with disagreements have made their points heard and there is no real need to argue them anymore at this time. The class is the way it is. The playtest is over and while I appreciate feedback, this is rapidly sliding into a heated argument that is just not needed this early before the books actual release, especially when some of the folks in the discussion do not even have it yet and no one has really played much with the new version.
For those who have had to reevaluate their character concepts. My apologies, character flavor, rules, and background are subject to change during a playtest. I realize this has a negative impact for some and I try to do this as infrequently as possible.
For those who dislike certain rules changes. My apologies. I think everybody here knew going in that there were going to be some people who were displeased with any given change. That is the nature of the game. I hope you will give the class a try and see how it works out.
Finally, there is one slight issue that does seem to be a problem that I thought I fixed, but it appears that it might have slipped by me and that is the bypassing of the attack limit by using manufactured weapons. I am willing to let it play out for now, but might revisit this issue in the future if it proves to be a problem.
That is all for now. This thread is closed.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing