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Wrote thorough replies to my confused self...
Ah I see, yes.
I wonder if the Summoner then is "better" when utilized by a group that does not focus on optimization...If the Eidolon is more transparent in ease of construction for more optimal effects then perhaps more casual groups would see the Summoner in a different light...I suppose that could be said for any sub-optimal configuration; non-optimizer won't care as much...
Having not much experience with the Eidolon is it so far ahead of a creature summoned at Levels 1-4 and so on? I could see it being more and more powerful relative to a summon as levels progress but in those lower levels would a quick pop of the SLA net you a decent protector while you stumble awake into combat? Is the Eidolon so ahead of the curve that all other options pale in comparison or are merely not "optimal"?
And that seems a pretty intense statement. To be fair my interests were in the more divine flavored classes so I never followed the Summoner through Beta but it seems like there are some really unhappy parties, and I am adjusting my expectations for the Internet and all that...
Its always a matter of interest. It isnt just the nerf bat that hurts, but the flavor change. Characters people have been playing for months now need houserules to keep in place. Other choices also need to be reconsidered as well given the shift in focus of the class. Augment Summoning for instance, is now far less valuable, you now need to talk to your dms about possibly retraining feats (i dont think this is even possible in organized play). I am pretty certain whole characters will disappear due to these changes, and at least to me the loss of a character is a traumatic event no matter what the class.
I think the only person who said the class was "dead" was a humour alt / troll whose shtick is posting an overreaction more extreme than anyone was actually saying. It would be unfortunate if people were confused into thinking that this was the opinion of all posters not partial to the change (or even necessarily any of them).
I only read "dead" from one person but I have seen multiple people seem to imply that they basically do not like the class and won't play it or something along the lines of:
Now, I have to beg every GM to allow sensible house rules before I can play the summoner I envision.And that seems a pretty intense statement. To be fair my interests were in the more divine flavored classes so I never followed the Summoner through Beta but it seems like there are some really unhappy parties, and I am adjusting my expectations for the Internet and all that...
A lot of it is flavour--the Summoner class inspired a bunch of different themes and ideas (there's a whole thread about it on the front page now, and there was another before during playtest). Some of those work just fine with the final version, but some of them don't, and that's what gets some people. Granted, it's easy to houserule in changes that will allow the concept to work--for instance, the only thing that must be houseruled for my Summoner PC's backstory to work is the part about losing the Eidolon when asleep; losing it when KOed wouldn't change that.
Another thing is that it offers fewer options for viable Summoner builds--some builds are still strong, and anyone running those types of builds won't be affected as much, but now there are fewer types available.
I think a lot of people would have preferred a nerf to the strongest builds while leaving more options open, if you see what I mean. The class still works as is, though it's a bit weak now compared to similar summoners of other classes (but hey, those other summoners are extremely strong).
Wrote thorough replies to my confused self...Ah I see, yes.
I wonder if the Summoner then is "better" when utilized by a group that does not focus on optimization...If the Eidolon is more transparent in ease of construction for more optimal effects then perhaps more casual groups would see the Summoner in a different light...I suppose that could be said for any sub-optimal configuration; non-optimizer won't care as much...
Having not much experience with the Eidolon is it so far ahead of a creature summoned at Levels 1-4 and so on? I could see it being more and more powerful relative to a summon as levels progress but in those lower levels would a quick pop of the SLA net you a decent protector while you stumble awake into combat? Is the Eidolon so ahead of the curve that all other options pale in comparison or are merely not "optimal"?
The Eidolon, if remotely optimised, is substantially better than a top level summon monster at all levels, even if you don't assign any of your items to the Eidolon. That said, it can easily die in one hit at level 1 (as can any summoned monster) due to its 1 HD and non-max roll on that 1 HD.
Wrote thorough replies to my confused self...Ah I see, yes.
I wonder if the Summoner then is "better" when utilized by a group that does not focus on optimization...If the Eidolon is more transparent in ease of construction for more optimal effects then perhaps more casual groups would see the Summoner in a different light...I suppose that could be said for any sub-optimal configuration; non-optimizer won't care as much...
I think that will always be one of the hardest things about game design, accounting for play style. But yea, at my table (all optimizers) this nerf bat will make a big relatively negative impact. Already the 2handed martial type outclassed my character(this includes the eidolon, summon and melee focused summoner) in damage. Now without the summon to provide flanking and to absorb hits I expect he would take a very solid back seat to other members of the party.
On the other hand, the relative ease of making a powerful eidolon (and thus summoner) means at a table where little effort is put into optimization, the changes will be a welcome reduction in the strength of the class that was outclassing the party's melee folks.
Having not much experience with the Eidolon is it so far ahead of a creature summoned at Levels 1-4 and so on? I could see it being more and more powerful relative to a summon as levels progress but in those lower levels would a quick pop of the SLA net you a decent protector while you stumble awake into combat? Is the Eidolon so ahead of the curve that all other options pale in comparison or are merely not "optimal"?
There is no comparison. The eidolon is dramatically better then a single summon, even at low levels. Those summons can still make an impact in a combat, but there is a big gulf between a combat focused eidolon and a summoned creature (even if augmented).
I've played a Summoner. My Eidolon was not overpowered or broken in anyway. Hence the number of times I had to use 'feather fall'.
I don't like the changes that were made to the Eidolon, to be honest.
Not being able to use the SLA's and the Eidolon at the same time is annoying, but meh. Most of my stuff focused on joint combat with the Eidolon.
Having the Eidolon disappear when the Summoner goes out at -1 HP is not something I'm happy with. I'm not quite of the reasoning behind that decision and I would love to know what prompted that change.
Would also like to know if the limbs evolution has any limits or if you can still make an eight armed monstrosity that can attack with each arm.
I think that will always be one of the hardest things about game design, accounting for play style. But yea, at my table (all optimizers) this nerf bat will make a big relatively negative impact. Already the 2handed martial type outclassed my character(this includes the eidolon, summon and melee focused summoner) in damage. Now without the summon to provide flanking and to absorb hits I expect he would take a very solid back seat to other members of the party.
On the other hand, the relative ease of making a powerful eidolon (and thus summoner) means at a table where little effort is put into optimization, the changes will be a welcome reduction in the strength of the class that was outclassing the party's melee folks.
I completely agree--in fact, with all the new feats and archetypes available for the group's melee, adding in the APG (if you allow rebuilds) will be also buffing your friends by a large amount as well.
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Thorough reply on optimization/deisgn
Thorough reply on build/community concerns
Thank you both for the answers it really does help, I run my game group about 85% of the time (get to take a break for my first kid and play an Inquistor) so I like to know what motivates the opinions on the board even if my group tends to be more laid back as far as builds/optimization compared to others.
The flavor change is the most compelling issue in my mind because that tends to be my focus as a player and if the beta to final transition had modified my Inquisitor as much as this seems to change some Summoners I could see myself being frustrated.
I think I also find it confusing that there is a flavor connection to the Eidolon in that it takes your will and concentration to maintain, which seems to be a justification for the long summon time and the "no Eidolon when asleep" issue and then put in this loophole to the concept by allowing you to summon it with a spell which hinders the Ediolon's function and duration but still turns off the SLA...so that seems a little...I am thinking convoluted would be the right word in the most sterile dictionary way.
I agree with Varthanna that it would be interesting to know more about he changes but I want to say that acknowledging that Paizo works hard and tells us a lot already so I am interested but certainly don't carry an expectation or anything in that vein.
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I would really like to see Jason's replies to Zurai's listed concerns. I think they're very valid and I think I'd feel more comfortable with the decisions if I understood the design philosophy behind them.
I don't think there's going to be a point-by-point reply, since he answered a lot of Zurai's criticism in a general, if unsatisfactory, way earlier in the thread. The designers will usually answer a direct question, but criticism tends to be answered in a general way to avoid prolonged arguments.
If I read what Jason posted right(here and elsewhere), I think the design philosophy was to create a class with a customizable companion-type creature who takes whatever shape the player desires and grows in power. Over the course of the testing, the creature's shape was potentially unbalancing and the choice was to place limitations on the user of the creature, rather than limit the choices available for the creature itself. Since it's been described as a monster PC with an summoner companion(sort of an inverse druid), I think that's why they decided to place the limitations on the summoner rather than the eidolon itself.
I can certainly envision a player whose summoner dies creating another summoner of equal level who summons the same "pet" as before, much as a druid replaces his lost companion. It's certainly the summoner who's more likely to meet an unpleasant end than the monstrosity he summons.
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Having the Eidolon disappear when the Summoner goes out at -1 HP is not something I'm happy with. I'm not quite of the reasoning behind that decision and I would love to know what prompted that change.
We made the decision to treat the presence of the eidolon as a manifestation of the summoner's will. This also ties into the SLA change, in that he can only have one or the other, since his will is limited. The unconsciousness change was put in to give the eidolon an achilles heel as it were, a weak spot. We did not want to terribly nerf the eidolon itself, but it needed a weakness and it made good design sense that the weakness should be built into its connection with the summoner.
For what it's worth, that's what he said earlier.
Director of Game Design
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Having the Eidolon disappear when the Summoner goes out at -1 HP is not something I'm happy with. I'm not quite of the reasoning behind that decision and I would love to know what prompted that change.
The point here was that when, with the Eidolon remaining in play, it changed some of the dynamics in game. The summoner himself was almost totally irrelevant. This played across the entire campaign as well. The summoner player could easily be a "focus" character regardless of the situation. Summoner napping, no worries, the eidolon still gets focus, Summoner knocked out, no worries, the eidolon still gets focus. There are certain cycle aspects in the game that the previous eidolon mechanics interrupted.
Of course, there were some power balance reasons as well. Earlier there was a mention that this does not work like other mechanics (such as animal companions or standard summoned monsters) and that is certainly true. This is a blend of the two ideas, and as such it comes with a host of special rules. It is also more powerful than any other such "companion" mechanics, meaning that it comes with additional limitations.
I get that some folks are upset by this change, but debate at this point, is not going to change it back. Give it a chance to settle. I think you'll find that the changes are not quite as devastating as some portray them to be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Jason,
Thank you very much for your answer, I appreciate you taking the time to explain.
QOShea
The point here was that when, with the Eidolon remaining in play, it changed some of the dynamics in game. The summoner himself was almost totally irrelevant. This played across the entire campaign as well. The summoner player could easily be a "focus" character regardless of the situation. Summoner napping, no worries, the eidolon still gets focus, Summoner knocked out, no worries, the eidolon still gets focus. There are certain cycle aspects in the game that the previous eidolon mechanics interrupted.
Of course, there were some power balance reasons as well. Earlier there was a mention that this does not work like other mechanics (such as animal companions or standard summoned monsters) and that is certainly true. This is a blend of the two ideas, and as such it comes with a host of special rules. It is also more powerful than any other such "companion" mechanics, meaning that it comes with additional limitations.
I get that some folks are upset by this change, but debate at this point, is not going to change it back. Give it a chance to settle. I think you'll find that the changes are not quite as devastating as some portray them to be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Ok,
I finally got my APG PDF this afternoon and read through it on the plane on the way back (3 hours).
I'm kind of confused.
1) I do see in the eidelon's description where it says 'The eidelon may not wear any armor'. However, since I sat down and figured out that an eidelon at 20th level can have an AC in the 40's, I'm not too upset about that (+2 Natural armor base, +16 from leveling, +5 from evolution Dex boosts, +4 from level dex boosts, +1 to +3 from base form dex, +10 from evolution armor results in 48 to 51 maximum, and that's not counting any buff spells cast, like mage armor or protection from evil). However, I see nowhere in the summoner class where it says the eidelon can't use magical items, nor anywhere where it says the eidelon must share slots with the summoner. It's possible I could be missing it, but I don't see it. If that's the case, then I don't see nearly as big an issue as I had before with the changes.
2) No Eidelon while asleep/unconscious = BAD (Sorry James, it does, IMHO). I am planning to put a few feats in to my own game to overcome this, along with some other little perks that aren't game breaking, since keeping the eidelon around when asleep/unconscious really isn't worth a whole feat.
3) The HP took a serious nerf from the original, but it does fit with their 3/4 advancement, so I can live with it.
4) It is still impossible to build a bird using the base forms and evolutions without having an extra pair of limbs sticking out somewhere! Really, it shouldn't be that hard to make a large Roc type eidelon without handwaving the fact it's got an extra pair of legs or arms or a long tail and constrict attack (no matter which base form you choose, it's got something extra stuck on it you have to handwave away and not use). I had hoped that would get fixed.
5) I really did prefer 1 SLA + 1 Eidelon at a time, over the one or the other, but I guess I can live with it.
Overall, assuming the 'no items' is just a leftover errata to the final playtest that didn't make it into the APG, which is what it appears unless it's stuck on some odd random page somewhere not in the classes section, then I can live with it. I'd assume any items would get left behind if the eidelon croaked, so that's fine as a balance.
1) I do see in the eidelon's description where it says 'The eidelon may not wear any armor'. However, since I sat down and figured out that an eidelon at 20th level can have an AC in the 40's, I'm not too upset about that (+2 Natural armor base, +16 from leveling, +5 from evolution Dex boosts, +4 from level dex boosts, +1 to +3 from base form dex, +10 from evolution armor results in 48 to 51 maximum, and that's not counting any buff spells cast, like mage armor or protection from evil). However, I see nowhere in the summoner class where it says the eidelon can't use magical items, nor anywhere where it says the eidelon must share slots with the summoner. It's possible I could be missing it, but I don't see it. If that's the case, then I don't see nearly as big an issue as I had before with the changes.
In the Final Playtest document, it was in the description of the Eidolon Special Ability link (before the evolutions). Can you check and see if it's still there? If that's gone then that's one of my big complaints fixed.
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A few questions about the eidelon now, since the wording is ambiguous on a couple of points.
Eidelon Healing. The text says an eidelon doesn't heal normally, neither manifested nor in it's home plane (not sure how I feel about that second one, seems like it ought to heal HP equal to HD per day it's allowed to stay completely in the home plane resting). So, the following questions occur to me :
1) Can a cleric cast Cure <blah> on the Eidelon and heal it?
2) Can a cleric channel energy and affect the eidelon too?
3) Can a cleric with Alignment Channel heal an eidelon (which is an outsider) with his channel?
If a cleric/paladin/etc can't heal with cures then that is another major nerf to the eidelon, and another situation where it doesn't work like any other mechanic (even summoned critters can be affected by channels and curative magic). I took the sentence to mean the eidelon couldn't sleep and heal naturally, nor could it be treated for first aid with Heal skill.
1) I do see in the eidelon's description where it says 'The eidelon may not wear any armor'. However, since I sat down and figured out that an eidelon at 20th level can have an AC in the 40's, I'm not too upset about that (+2 Natural armor base, +16 from leveling, +5 from evolution Dex boosts, +4 from level dex boosts, +1 to +3 from base form dex, +10 from evolution armor results in 48 to 51 maximum, and that's not counting any buff spells cast, like mage armor or protection from evil). However, I see nowhere in the summoner class where it says the eidelon can't use magical items, nor anywhere where it says the eidelon must share slots with the summoner. It's possible I could be missing it, but I don't see it. If that's the case, then I don't see nearly as big an issue as I had before with the changes.In the Final Playtest document, it was in the description of the Eidolon Special Ability link (before the evolutions). Can you check and see if it's still there? If that's gone then that's one of my big complaints fixed.
Nope, it's still there, I just missed it.
GRRRR, afraid my statement above about being able to live with the changes just got dialed back. :(
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1) Can a cleric cast Cure <blah> on the Eidelon and heal it?
2) Can a cleric channel energy and affect the eidelon too?
3) Can a cleric with Alignment Channel heal an eidelon (which is an outsider) with his channel?The text says an eidelon doesn't heal normally...
First, the text actually says "naturally" not normally...so that may change your thoughts. Either way....
We've been playing it as 1 and 3 are Yes, 2 is no, pretty much solely based on the wording of the Alignment Channel feat. CLW wands work as well, at least under our interpretation.
But honestly, now that I read the Cleric Channel Energy feature and the description of the Eidolon...I'm not sure that 2 wouldn't work...I would say it is a living creature, based on the Outsider subtype wording in the Bestiary...and living creatures are what gets healed...so I'm not sure now.
Jason, any official word on what type of healing (other than summoner heals) works on an eidolon?
Also, while I'm at it...what about being able to use your SLA with a (spell) Summoned Eidolon? Any advice would be great!!
Ok,
3) The HP took a serious nerf from the original, but it does fit with their 3/4 advancement, so I can live with it.
Would you care to elaborate on this? Just wondering what happened there, as I don't recall them having such high hitpoints to start with. (Although being able to heal them now is nice)
He may men 1 HD which is like 6 hp, they have had that for a while however.
Would you care to elaborate on this? Just wondering what happened there, as I don't recall them having such high hitpoints to start with. (Although being able to heal them now is nice)Ok,
3) The HP took a serious nerf from the original, but it does fit with their 3/4 advancement, so I can live with it.
I was refering to the eidelon. It was originally a 20HD progression, now it's a 15HD progression (like the playtest final). Or was it 17HD?
I was refering to the eidelon. It was originally a 20HD progression, now it's a 15HD progression (like the playtest final). Or was it 17HD?Would you care to elaborate on this? Just wondering what happened there, as I don't recall them having such high hitpoints to start with. (Although being able to heal them now is nice)Ok,
3) The HP took a serious nerf from the original, but it does fit with their 3/4 advancement, so I can live with it.
17, originally.
It was a 15 in the final play test (looking at it right now), but it had a full BAB and d10 HD.
It was a 15 in the final play test (looking at it right now), but it had a full BAB and d10 HD.
Right. It was 17 in the first playtest, and 15 in the final playtest and, it seems, in the release (I'd hoped they would at least settle for the middle ground of 16, which is, coincidentally, the same as animal companions and special mounts).
What is it's BAB/HD in the APG?
Also. Another class that loses alot when its asleep?
Any class without alarm, contingency, or a familar/companion.
Fighters can wake up and immediately use 100% of their class features.
Barbarians can stand up and immediately use 100% of their class features.
Clerics can stand up and immediately use 100% of their class features.
Etc.Summoners? They have to spend 10 rounds summoning their reason to exist.
Pointless change. It's a massive flexibility nerf because now Summoners have to either use one of their precious few spells known on summon eidolon (which is an otherwise extremely weak spell) or save their summon monster SLAs for when they rest at night or get put to sleep or knocked to -1 or lower hp (which will happen a lot since they literally have a giant neon sign on their forehead). No longer can they actually viably use their utility summons for utility purposes; now they have to be reserved for emergency Eidolon replacement.
Go go Summon eidolon!
One round casting time.. Yep.. Yep.. You're wrong. Woot. Now time to read these other posts which I hopefully just copied.
What is it's BAB/HD in the APG?
The same. It's an Outsider, so it would be weird indeed for its racial HD or BAB to change (granted, it has unusual saves for an outsider, so I guess you could make a point that anything goes).
So by 20th level, it would have better Nat armor than an animal companion (barring buffs, items, Feats, and evolutions) More HP (Despite having 1 less HD), +3 BAB, and (most likely) Better attribute scores? I can see why he needs an Achilles heel (though I would've voted for a different weakness, but that's just me).
It's a massive flexibility nerf because now Summoners have to either use one of their precious few spells known on summon eidolon (which is an otherwise extremely weak spell)Go go Summon eidolon!
One round casting time.. Yep.. Yep.. You're wrong. Woot. Now time to read these other posts which I hopefully just copied.
Seriously, did you even read the post?
Seriously, did you even read the post?It's a massive flexibility nerf because now Summoners have to either use one of their precious few spells known on summon eidolon (which is an otherwise extremely weak spell)Go go Summon eidolon!
One round casting time.. Yep.. Yep.. You're wrong. Woot. Now time to read these other posts which I hopefully just copied.
Yes.
You should do a conjuration wizard.
Perhaps with some eldritch knight.
Though pure conjuration wizard. 24 hour summon monster. There ya gooo.
I would honestly like to know how things are supposed to work at this point , I essentially got the APG for the summoner class and am now feeling deeply disappointed in my purchase. I realize there is plenty of other material in here i may at one point use, but right now i am finding it hard to even poke through the pdf to find it after its farcical debut in play.
I don't understand this, when did having a class that can "create" frankensteins monster become such an intrinsic part of your D&D experience?
I would honestly like to know how things are supposed to work at this point , I essentially got the APG for the summoner class and am now feeling deeply disappointed in my purchase. I realize there is plenty of other material in here i may at one point use, but right now i am finding it hard to even poke through the pdf to find it after its farcical debut in play.
I don't understand this, when did having a class that can "create" frankensteins monster become such an intrinsic part of your D&D experience?
Since people really enjoyed the class in it's play test forms, and have created characters around that. Some of which people have been playing for months now, and some are not going to be continued. Its hard to just ignore a class that involves a character you have become invested in. Anyone who has ever lost a character mid campaign knows that would be difficult to swallow.
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I see a few things that quite a few people are flagging as huge issues and I will respond to them in kind with my own opinions on them.
1) "OMG, My buddy goes poof when I pass out? How lame wtfnerfbat?!"
-I understand that you feel as if though your shinny new toy is being taken away from you once you drop below 0, get slept, or knocked unconscious. I think one of the big reasons for this change was that during combat, the focus is almost always completely on eidolon. That is a problem, it is like role playing your sword or spells. That is what the thing is when you boil it down. This was a problem in the playtest and I personally don't think it even does enough to fix it in the current state. There SHOULD be an element of danger for you and this helps shift the focus back more towards the PC and less so to the weapon. Plus, are you really going to complain that you have to spend 10 minutes in the morning to summon it? Really? When was the last time you played a non-spontaneous caster? The summoner will be ready, showered, and making coffee with his 9 foot tall scaly 6 armed kill monster by the time the wizard, and cleric are done praying and pouring over novels... both of whom haven't even brushed their teeth yet. (Yuk!)
2) "I can't have 4+ mini's to move about, control, and attack with every turn I get?! You guys suck, get a new job!"
-Come on guys, really? They took away 1 monster for you to control on your turn. And guess what, you can have it back if you sacrifice a spell slot! On top of that is cuts down on your prep time for combat too! I don't see the complain here really. The turns of the players with multiple pieces to move, and multiple rounds to take during their own turns is already a problem and having 4 move/standard actions to make pretty much every turn not only takes time but it makes other players feel like they aren't doing as much... because they AREN'T.
3) Low health
-I actually kinda sympathize here, they do have some HP problems, but it's nothing toughness or a few defensive evolutions can't fix. Plus, if he dies it's not that big of a deal, he comes back tomorrow and you have a whole SLEW of SLA's to use in combat while your little buddy is resting up on his home plane.
My point being, let off it guys. The summoners needed MAJOR nerfs from the playtest version and I think while they may not be (quote unquote) "Perfect" fixes, they work, and are no where near as devastating as they could have been. These guys know what they are doing and honestly you should cut them some slack and show some support here, they went out of their way to work with us (The community) every step of this process and you are throwing rotten fruit at them NOW?!
Thank you again Jason for this amazing content btw.
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Has anyone started playing the class as it stands now? From reading over the class, it is still very playable and looks fun to roleplay.
From all the arguments here, it seems there are a lot of complaints about mechanics without actually attempting to try them in a real game. The designers did this and felt this was best. With the quality of the game that they have put out, I trust their ability to make this class fun and playable.
Considering someone said that the Eidolon doesn't heal naturally, how are you able to summon it after the first time it goes *poof*?
It can't recover HP while dismissed, so when you summon it, it's still dead.
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From APG:
A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that
takes 1 minute to perform. When summoned in this way,
the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it
was summoned. The only exception to this is if the eidolon
was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit
points. The eidolon does not heal naturally.
My main gripe with the Summoner, or the Eidolon to be exact, is how cheap Pounce is. 1 evolution point is ridiculous for such a strong ability. I'm currently GMing a group and having a creature with four natural attacks and power attack full-attacking almost all of the time is awful.
I guess that's what houserules are for.
So, if a summoner is built around riding a flying eidolon, and at any point in flight the summoner is knocked out (by damage, spell, etc), the eidolon vanishes and the summoner plummets to their likely death?
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In my Legacy of Darkness campaign (yes it's exactly what you think it is...but not as well), I have an NPC named Onyx that is a monk/summoner. The concept behind that character, as stated in another thread, was Kamen Rider: Dragon Knight.
From everything I've read so far, the summoner class as presented in the APG actually falls in line with this type of concept more and more. Spells were not important to Onyx (he even has a Charisma of 10, limiting him to only 0-level spells) but the eidolon changes (such as the vanishing upon unconsciousness or death clause) I can really get behind as it highlights that the summoner is the eidolon's link to the world. If that link should be severed, then it should be dismissed in that instant (although I suppose one could rule that without that link, the eidolon could go berserk or something, but that puts the party at risk...).
I was never a fan of the mob-style pack that summons seem to bring about, namely because it makes the user the focus of any combat scenario (takes up way too much time to resolve those actions while not letting the other players do anything). Most players I know resent having a role in combat taken away from them like that. If they are anything like my players, they'll sit around and pointedly ask "Just why am I here again?"
Bottom line, I don't understand what the major fuss is (I'll find out next week) but I'm willing at least to give it a shot and see.
This has nothing to do with the complaining, but what is that crazy eidolon that the Summoner iconic has? Looks like a chicken/snake hybrid. He is a gnome though, so that is something they do!
Well that's easy. It's a Krafayis.
Since people really enjoyed the class in it's play test forms, and have created characters around that. Some of which people have been playing for months now, and some are not going to be continued. Its hard to just ignore a class that involves a character you have become invested in.
Unless this is for Pathfinder Society (which I don't think you could make a beta class character for), then why can't you go on using the rules you made the character with.
I know DMs who aren't letting players remake their characters just because the APG came out, mid-campaign. So if you built a character and concept around a class that had certain features, then why not keep using those rules until done with that character?
Why the pressure to drastically modify a character that's already been played for many sessions?
I really think it's more about being upset that what they enjoyed won't be fully supported by the design team. Future additions to the class will be based on the new class, and so will probably clash if the player continues to use the beta rules.
Unless this is for Pathfinder Society (which I don't think you could make a beta class character for), then why can't you go on using the rules you made the character with.
I know DMs who aren't letting players remake their characters just because the APG came out, mid-campaign. So if you built a character and concept around a class that had certain features, then why not keep using those rules until done with that character?
Why the pressure to drastically modify a character that's already been played for many sessions?
I really think it's more about being upset that what they enjoyed won't be fully supported by the design team. Future additions to the class will be based on the new class, and so will probably clash if the player continues to use the beta rules.
I certainly will be using houserules in my own game that are largely close to the beta. That doesnt mean I dont have a right to express my concern for the changes made to the class or the final result. I am fully aware that obviously the rules as written wont change, and that I can simply house rule them in my own game. But I still want to provide feedback whether positive or negative.
1) "OMG, My buddy goes poof when I pass out? How lame wtfnerfbat?!"
-I understand that you feel as if though your shinny new toy is being taken away from you once you drop below 0, get slept, or knocked unconscious. I think one of the big reasons for this change was that during combat, the focus is almost always completely on eidolon. That is a problem, it is like role playing your sword or spells. That is what the thing is when you boil it down. This was a problem in the playtest and I personally don't think it even does enough to fix it in the current state. There SHOULD be an element of danger for you and this helps shift the focus back more towards the PC and less so to the weapon. Plus, are you really going to complain that you have to spend 10 minutes in the morning to summon it? Really? When was the last time you played a non-spontaneous caster? The summoner will be ready, showered, and making coffee with his 9 foot tall scaly 6 armed kill monster by the time the wizard, and cleric are done praying and pouring over novels... both of whom haven't even brushed their teeth yet. (Yuk!)
I dont really have a problem with it from a mechanical standpoint. You are right in that other spellcasters have a similar weakness. My problem is more that it completely changes the flavor of the class, and therefore invalidates alot of concepts that this class could once cover. It is now more or less just a pokemon in a pokeball to be pulled out as a tool, rather then a character who is a co-star in the story. I think alot is lost there in terms of the ideas that the class can cover for it.
Not to mention, the original point of the class was to focus on the eidolon. Now that the focus of the class is pushed back on the summoner, what exactly is the point of the class? Alot of people were interested in the idea of the focus of a character being on it's fantastic monster pal. The mechanics no longer support that.
2) "I can't have 4+ mini's to move about, control, and attack with every turn I get?! You guys suck, get a new job!"
-Come on guys, really? They took away 1 monster for you to control on your turn. And guess what, you can have it back if you sacrifice a spell slot! On top of that is cuts down on your prep time for combat too! I don't see the complain here really. The turns of the players with multiple pieces to move, and multiple rounds to take during their own turns is already a problem and having 4 move/standard actions to make pretty much every turn not only takes time but it makes other players feel like they aren't doing as much... because they AREN'T.
I have a very big distaste for major class features that do not work together. You know what you end up with? The monk. A class that has no idea what it wants to be. If you thought the summon sla was too problematic, or too complicated (with all the mini's to control) then change it. But change it to something else instead of just making what was a singificant part of the class, now extremely situational. The eidolon is the major class feature, so the summon sla's will almost always go unused. A class feature that never gets used is not a well written one.
In terms of actual play, if you have the summon, and eidolon's stats written out and you take the normal methods for speeding up play at the table (rolling multiple dice at once for multiple attacks color coordinated with the damage roll), it really isnt a problem. I took less time then the wizard to work out my turn most of the time. So did the player who played one in the game i was running. Though if you dont I agree the class can be problematic, but not much more then it would be if you did the same with a druid or a conjuration wizard. I am also curious where you get 4 from. Summoner, Eidolon, Summon, then what? Do your summoners also waste their spell slots on more summons? Seems a little silly to me when they had better spells to use.
I think in terms of power this is less a problem at mid to high levels when the eidolon starts to shine, but at low levels, without the sla's the summoner will struggle to contribute. Mine did even with the all of it's features working together.
I see a few things that quite a few people are flagging as huge issues and I will respond to them in kind with my own opinions on them.
1) "OMG, My buddy goes poof when I pass out? How lame wtfnerfbat?!"
-I understand that you feel as if though your shinny new toy is being taken away from you once you drop below 0, get slept, or knocked unconscious. I think one of the big reasons for this change was that during combat, the focus is almost always completely on eidolon. That is a problem, it is like role playing your sword or spells. That is what the thing is when you boil it down. This was a problem in the playtest and I personally don't think it even does enough to fix it in the current state. There SHOULD be an element of danger for you and this helps shift the focus back more towards the PC and less so to the weapon. Plus, are you really going to complain that you have to spend 10 minutes in the morning to summon it? Really? When was the last time you played a non-spontaneous caster? The summoner will be ready, showered, and making coffee with his 9 foot tall scaly 6 armed kill monster by the time the wizard, and cleric are done praying and pouring over novels... both of whom haven't even brushed their teeth yet. (Yuk!)
I have seen druid players do this. Its nothing new. The only real difference is that the druid gets more awesome stuff and is more powerful, so its a little less likely. Remove the druid's shapechange and give him a few more buffs and you pretty much get the summoner. A better responce would have been to give the summoner an obvious thing that he can be doing to fight alongside his eidolon.
The tales of the "summoner who sleeps in combat" were all summoner builds of people who did not think to make the summoner himself combat effective, so all he really has is buffs. Give the summoner decent physical stats and he has something to do. Give the players a reason to build that way, and you will start to see summoners who work in tandem with their summons, like they are supposed to, and like druids do. Instead, they made the summoner squishier by making him a bigger target. This reduces his options in combat. All those front line summoners are a giant liabilty to the party now, while the guy who does nothing but run away from the fight is more optimal. This has the reverse effect from the intended goal.
2) "I can't have 4+ mini's to move about, control, and attack with every turn I get?! You guys suck, get a new job!"
-Come on guys, really? They took away 1 monster for you to control on your turn. And guess what, you can have it back if you sacrifice a spell slot! On top of that is cuts down on your prep time for combat too! I don't see the complain here really. The turns of the players with multiple pieces to move, and multiple rounds to take during their own turns is already a problem and having 4 move/standard actions to make pretty much every turn not only takes time but it makes other players feel like they aren't doing as much... because they AREN'T.
The problem is the class is supposed to be about summoning. It is kind of their name. Druids and wizards can both do exactly this, but now the class named after it is worse than both of them at it. 1 gets to do it spontaneously, and the other gets a boost to durration. Neither of them have restrictions on number, and both have more spells/day than the summoner and have other features.
3) Low health
-I actually kinda sympathize here, they do have some HP problems, but it's nothing toughness or a few defensive evolutions can't fix. Plus, if he dies it's not that big of a deal, he comes back tomorrow and you have a whole SLEW of SLA's to use in combat while your little buddy is resting up on his home plane.My point being, let off it guys. The summoners needed MAJOR nerfs from the playtest version and I think while they may not be (quote unquote) "Perfect" fixes, they work, and are no where near as devastating as they could have been. These guys know what they are doing and honestly you should cut them some slack and show some support here, they went out of their way to work with us (The community) every step of this process and you are throwing rotten fruit at them NOW?!
Thank you again Jason for this amazing content btw.
The summoner didn't need the major nerfs that it got, since it was already weaker than other classes. It had a couple broken features that needed tweaking but were not fixed. Parts that were working as intended got hit. The summoner wasn't dominating games I saw any more than optimized druids. The nerfs made a number of people I play with toss out the summoner from their play que, since it can no longer effectively summon monsters and is more reliant on the eidolon than before.
Unless the Eidolon automatically restores when the Summoner wakes up or returns to full HP, that is a major nerf that does not fit into game flow. I presume the argument presented supporting that change is that the Eidolon becomes the primary party member and not the Summoner. If that is the case, then the Eidolon should automatically reappear if the Summoner is restored to normal HP. Otherwise your argument is hypocritical and an unnecessary spite to Summoners. It would be like telling the Fighter "Ok, you're up. Now go sit in a corner."
Which was already pointed out. Paizo laid down some serious nerfs, but seemed to completely ignore the 800lb gorilla in the room.