Newbie (and probably brain ded) question about Multiclassing

[Andrew_of_Mesa]

I have a question about the Multiclass rules in the Core Rule Book for Pathfinder. It's probably a stupidly obvious and I'm just obfuscating the point and sounding like a bad player, but here it goes;

The way the rule uses the word "instead" at the very start of the paragraph makes it sound like if I was playing a Monk at first level and I level up, I can take the next level in Monk or I can take the first rank in another class in place of the abilities I would gain as a 2nd level Monk, this would work out so that the next time I level up, I can choose either the 3rd level Monk abilities, or the 2nd level of my second class. I'm probably splitting hairs and reading too much into some part of the statement and how it actually works is your total level is the combined total of levels you have in each class (i.e. 1st Level Monk+1st Level Ranger+2nd Level Sorcerer=4th Level Character), but it's bothering me enough that I thought I ought to get more experienced minds to lay the rules down for me. Thanks!

-Andrew

[Darkheyr]

Your last statement is correct.

You simply level up separately, level by level, and add it all together.

So, a sixth level character could be:
- Monk6
- Monk1/Ranger5
- Monk2/Ranger2/Sorcerer2

And he'd have all of the relevant class abilities. There is no skipping levels with multiclasses, you take them as normal and add them together. A Monk3/Ranger3 has all the abilities of a Monk3 or a Ranger3, though due to being level 6, he will naturally have a higher combined save/base attack/hitpoint pool, and possibly access to higher level feats.

[LazarX]

Note however that in the example above, if the multi-class monk/ranger wears armor he will have the same effect on his monk abilities as if he was a single class Monk. It't not like the old AD+D multi-class where being a fighter/MU negated the armor restriction for magic-users.

[Darkheyr]

Oooh right, AD&D had an issue there. Weird multiclass (or class combinations!) rules those were. Did something of our own quickly.

[Rezdave]

Yep ... that was one thing I really liked about 3.x multi-classing. It's just a simple matter of advancing each class individually and adding up the total abilities and bonuses.

Of course, you need Total Level XP quantities ... that isn't like AD&D where you have separate XP pools. In AD&D there was basically no reason not to multi-class (unless you were a Fighter who really wanted Weapon Specialization), since you gained your second class and all its abilities for the effective cost of 1 level of your other class.

The only issue with 3.x multiclassing is that you tend to take a performance hit, since a Ftr/Wiz at higher levels just doesn't have the big-bang spells to take out APL-approriate opponents. That is where feats like Practiced Caster come in handy. However, it's still a good idea to use multi-classing judiciously, since you do tend to take a performance hit, particularly in any "progressive" or Level-based class ability (Rage, Sneak Attack, Caster Level, etc.).

HTH,

Rez

[But I'm Just a Gnome]

Darkheyr wrote:

Your last statement is correct.

You simply level up separately, level by level, and add it all together.

So, a sixth level character could be:
- Monk6
- Monk1/Ranger5
- Monk2/Ranger2/Sorcerer2

And he'd have all of the relevant class abilities. There is no skipping levels with multiclasses, you take them as normal and add them together. A Monk3/Ranger3 has all the abilities of a Monk3 or a Ranger3, though due to being level 6, he will naturally have a higher combined save/base attack/hitpoint pool, and possibly access to higher level feats.

Ooh! Ooh! I'm also a multiclassing no0b thinking about trying this for the first time.

My additional question (and hopefully this helps the OP, too): Suppose I am multiclassing Cleric and Rogue. Both classes have the same BAB progression, but their good saves are opposite one another. I take a level of Rogue, then I add a level of Cleric. Does my BAB now reflect the number on the second level line of the Cleric chart, because it would be the same number as the number on the second level line of the Rogue chart? Or do I simply write down whatever BAB number is specified for the character level I just took? I.e. the BAB# for a first level cleric? What if I start off with two levels of Fighter and then take a level of Wizard? Do I keep the BAB I earned in my first two levels and just add nothing as I become a third level character (because level 1 of Wizard = BAB +0)? Or does my Fighter 2/Wizard 1 now have a BAB of zero, because I just write down the number that appears in the chart for whatever level I just took?

And do saves work the same way? Does being a Cleric with one or two levels of Rogue mean I have good Will and Fort saves (though one or two levels behind most other Clerics), with a Reflex save sliiiightly better than the average Cleric, or do my Will and Fort bonuses disappear off my character sheet whenever I take a level dip into Rogue, and vice versa? Like, suppose (hugely hypothetical; I don't think I would do this) I'm now a Rogue 2/Cleric 8, and I decide I would like to take one more dip into Rogue for the 2d6 sneak attack. I was a 10th level character, with at least the BAB and saves of an 8th level Cleric (possibly slightly more, if BAB and saves from other classes are at all additive), do I now have the BAB and saves of a 3rd level Rogue?

[Gorbacz]

You stack your BAB and saves. Eg, class A gives you +0/+0/+2 saves and class B gives you +1/+1/+1 saves, you end up with +1/+1/+3. Same with BAB.

[MisterSlanky]

But I'm Just a Gnome wrote:

My additional question (and hopefully this helps the OP, too): Suppose I am multiclassing Cleric and Rogue. Both classes have the same BAB progression, but their good saves are opposite one another. I take a level of Rogue, then I add a level of Cleric. Does my BAB now reflect the number on the second level line of the Cleric chart, because it would be the same number as the number on the second level line of the Rogue chart? Or do I simply write down whatever BAB number is specified for the character level I just took? I.e. the BAB# for a first level cleric? What if I start off with two levels of Fighter and then take a level of Wizard? Do I keep the BAB I earned in my first two levels and just add nothing as I become a third level character (because level 1 of Wizard = BAB +0)? Or does my Fighter 2/Wizard 1 now have a BAB of zero, because I just write down the number that appears in the chart for whatever level I just took?

BAB is always additive. Just add the BAB line for whatever level of a class you are to the BAB line of your second class.

In your example, your BAB is equal to that of a first level cleric plus that of a first level rogue (in other words, zero). If you gain a new level and put it in cleric, you become a Cleric 2 / Rogue 1, and your new level 2 cleric BAB (+1) is added to your rogue BAB (+0) and you get a +1 BAB.

So for example:

A Fighter 2, Cleric 1, Rogue 5 would have a BAB of...

Fighter +2 (Because level 2 fighters get +2 BAB)
Cleric +0 (Because level 1 clerics get +0 BAB)
Rogue +3 (Because a level 5 rogue gets +3 BAB)

Your TOTAL BAB would be +5 (just add 'em together).

Quote:

And do saves work the same way? Does being a Cleric with one or two levels of Rogue mean I have good Will and Fort saves (though one or two levels behind most other Clerics), with a Reflex save sliiiightly better than the average Cleric, or do my Will and Fort bonuses disappear off my character sheet whenever I take a level dip into Rogue, and vice versa? Like, suppose (hugely hypothetical; I don't think I would do...

Saves work exactly the same way.

A level 1 Fighter / level 1 wizard would have the following saves:

+2 Fort (from +1 fighter and +0 wizard)
+0 Ref (From +0 fighter and +0 wizard)
+2 Wil (from +0 fighter and +2 wizard)

[Urath DM]

Just to be clear because of one point in the OP question.. you do not "skip" 2nd level Monk when you take Monk again at 3rd level after taking a level of Ranger in between.

If you take your class levels alternating like this:

Monk
Ranger
Monk
Monk
Ranger
Ranger
Monk

You do not get the abilities of
Monk 1
Ranger 1
Monk 3
Monk 4
Ranger 2
Ranger 3
Monk 7

You do get the abilities of
Monk 1
Ranger 1
Monk 2
Monk 3
Ranger 2
Ranger 3
Monk 4

[Quasi-Human]

In regards to BAB - If I'm not mistaken, you use your cumulative BAB to determine multiple attacks when doing a full-attack action. I.e. if your total BAB is +6, you get an additional attack at +1.

[DM_Blake]

To chime in and explain the easy way to do it:

Just work out one class at a time - treat them as two different classes (even as two different characters, sort of). For example, if you your levels go:
Rogue
Cleric
Rogue
Cleric
Cleric
Cleric
Rogue

Then you are a 7th level character who is a Rogue3/Cleric4.

So, figure out all your benefits one class at a time. Figure out your BAB, Saves, and class abilities for a 3rd level rogue, since that is what you are. Then, after you're done with that, figure out your BAB, Saves, and class abilities/spells for a 4th level cleric, since that is also what you are.

Then add them together. BAB and Saves add just fine. BAB 2 (for a 3rd level rogue) + BAB 3 (for a 4th level cleric) adds to be BAB 5 total. Saves of 1/3/1 (for a 3rd level rogue) add with saves of 4/1/4 (for a 4th level cleric) for a total of 5/4/5 (Fort/Ref/Will).

Class abilities usually don't add together unless they say that they do. But this isn't a problem with these two classes since they have nothing in common. The rogue will get Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Evasion, 1 Talent, and Trap Sense as a 3rd level rogue, and the cleric will get Spells, Orisons, Aura, Channel Energy, and Domains as a 4th level cleric.

[Andrew_of_Mesa]

Thanks for all the responses! Clarifies everything I needed to know and thanks for the assist on the BAB stats too.

[OneSoulLegion]

Andrew_of_Mesa wrote:

Thanks for all the responses! Clarifies everything I needed to know and thanks for the assist on the BAB stats too.

Unless I missed it above, I believe a clarification on the way BAB works would be something like this.

Both clerics and rogues get 3/4 BAB per level. So a Rogue 1/Cleric 1 character (as was mentioned as an example earlier) would have a BAB of +1, even though both rogue and cleric are +0 at first level (since they'd have a BAB of .75 for the first level or rogue, adding .75 for the level of cleric, and ending up with a BAB of 1.5, rounding down to +1. Adding a level of wizard to that (BAB of 1/2) would even bump their BAB up to +2 (2.0)).
Or have I misinterpreted this?

[Slaunyeh]

Elgerot wrote:

Unless I missed it above, I believe a clarification on the way BAB works would be something like this.
Both clerics and rogues get 3/4 BAB per level. So a Rogue 1/Cleric 1 character (as was mentioned as an example earlier) would have a BAB of +1, even though both rogue and cleric are +0 at first level (since they'd have a BAB of .75 for the first level or rogue, adding .75 for the level of cleric, and ending up with a BAB of 1.5, rounding down to +1. Adding a level of wizard to that (BAB of 1/2) would even bump their BAB up to +2 (2.0)).
Or have I misinterpreted this?

That's certainly a common house rule, but not how it works as written. And also not the simplest way to do it. Introducing fractional BaB and saves at this point is probably a bit overkill. :)

[Enlight_Bystand]

Elgerot wrote:

Andrew_of_Mesa wrote:

Thanks for all the responses! Clarifies everything I needed to know and thanks for the assist on the BAB stats too.

Unless I missed it above, I believe a clarification on the way BAB works would be something like this.

Both clerics and rogues get 3/4 BAB per level. So a Rogue 1/Cleric 1 character (as was mentioned as an example earlier) would have a BAB of +1, even though both rogue and cleric are +0 at first level (since they'd have a BAB of .75 for the first level or rogue, adding .75 for the level of cleric, and ending up with a BAB of 1.5, rounding down to +1. Adding a level of wizard to that (BAB of 1/2) would even bump their BAB up to +2 (2.0)).
Or have I misinterpreted this?

By RAW, that's very wrong. You just read out the numbers from the table, and add them straight.

3rd ed's Unearthed Arcana had an alternative for fractional BAB and Saves, but it doesn't seem to be in either the official SRD or on D20srd.org The BAB worked how you think core bab does, whilst the saves started with 2 and a half for good saves and one third for bad, going up by a half or a third each level respectively.

Edit - overkill introduced!