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Now I have all sorts of amusing ideas for an injection spear and some potions of various unpleasantries. I am so changing the next encounter in my game for this.
Sean, what can be done to remove the personal range potions from the NPCs in the Game Mastery Guide?
I believe the lazy solution is to pretend that they're actually similar, legal elixirs (e.g. wondrous items).
Which of course raises the question: "Why didn't they just make those potions legal in PFRPG?"
Sean, what can be done to remove the personal range potions from the NPCs in the Game Mastery Guide?
1) Tell Wes about them.
2) Remind Wes to punish the person who wrote those tables. :)
Sean, what can be done to remove the personal range potions from the NPCs in the Game Mastery Guide?I believe the lazy solution is to pretend that they're actually similar, legal elixirs (e.g. wondrous items).
Which of course raises the question: "Why didn't they just make those potions legal in PFRPG?"
Righteous might and Divine Power. Those 2 spells are slightly OP in the hands of a cleric. If a fighter could get a potion, it would be insane.
Righteous might and Divine Power. Those 2 spells are slightly OP in the hands of a cleric. If a fighter could get a potion, it would be insane.
Potions top out at 3rd level spells, so no need to worry about that.
Righteous might and Divine Power. Those 2 spells are slightly OP in the hands of a cleric. If a fighter could get a potion, it would be insane.Potions top out at 3rd level spells, so no need to worry about that.
Ok, how about a fighter with Divine Favor + Mirror Image + Blink + Expeditious Retreat + Invisibility Purge + Shield
The point is to place some limits on what buffs anyone can easily get.
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Righteous might and Divine Power. Those 2 spells are slightly OP in the hands of a cleric. If a fighter could get a potion, it would be insane.Potions top out at 3rd level spells, so no need to worry about that.Ok, how about a fighter with Divine Favor + Mirror Image + Blink + Expeditious Retreat + Invisibility Purge + Shield
The point is to place some limits on what buffs anyone can easily get.
Divine Favor = personal
Mirror Image = personalBlink = personal
Exp Retreat = personal
Invisibility Purge = personal
Shield = wow, personal !
So, none of the above is potion-izable.
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Righteous might and Divine Power. Those 2 spells are slightly OP in the hands of a cleric. If a fighter could get a potion, it would be insane.Potions top out at 3rd level spells, so no need to worry about that.Ok, how about a fighter with Divine Favor + Mirror Image + Blink + Expeditious Retreat + Invisibility Purge + Shield
The point is to place some limits on what buffs anyone can easily get.
Divine Favor = personal
Mirror Image = personal
Blink = personal
Exp Retreat = personal
Invisibility Purge = personal
Shield = wow, personal !So, none of the above is potion-izable.
Can you do it with Elixirs?
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Can you do it with Elixirs?Righteous might and Divine Power. Those 2 spells are slightly OP in the hands of a cleric. If a fighter could get a potion, it would be insane.Potions top out at 3rd level spells, so no need to worry about that.Ok, how about a fighter with Divine Favor + Mirror Image + Blink + Expeditious Retreat + Invisibility Purge + Shield
The point is to place some limits on what buffs anyone can easily get.
Divine Favor = personal
Mirror Image = personal
Blink = personal
Exp Retreat = personal
Invisibility Purge = personal
Shield = wow, personal !So, none of the above is potion-izable.
If your GM is nice enough to allow spell-in-a-can custom wondrous items, maybe. I'm not nice. :)
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Sean, what can be done to remove the personal range potions from the NPCs in the Game Mastery Guide?The design intent of an injection spear is that you can use it to give a potion to an allied creature that wouldn't normally be able to drink potions on its own. So a gnoll ranger could stab his bear animal companion with a potion of bull's strength, and the bear would hulk out.
There is no reason why you couldn't use an injection spear on a hostile creature, injecting it with a potion of blindness or whatever. The creature would still get a save if the spell effect allows a save, but it's a valid tactic.
I would not bother trying to remove them. There is no reason at all that an NPC could not have researched and made a unique spell that removed the Target Self restriction. Just like PCs can research and create and modify spells, I think NPCs should be capable of that same option as well.
Just like there is no reason why you can't have an NPC Cleric casting Fireball. He can research spells just like a PC can...
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I think it was Arcana Unearthed, but maybe one of the magic-user splat books from 3.5 that offered alternatives to potions and scrolls. Elixirs, oils, unguents, wafers, ceramic tiles, etc can all be used to give flavor and options to boring scrolls and potions. The idea was that it had to be either a spell completion or spell activation type of effect that is in line with a potion or scroll.
Combined with some spell research, and alternative types of potions you can get some really great magic items! :)
not sure, but can an alchemist make potions of spells like blindness?
also would the willing target apply with an injection spear?
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I think it was Arcana Unearthed, but maybe one of the magic-user splat books from 3.5 that offered alternatives to potions and scrolls. Elixirs, oils, unguents, wafers, ceramic tiles, etc can all be used to give flavor and options to boring scrolls and potions. The idea was that it had to be either a spell completion or spell activation type of effect that is in line with a potion or scroll.
Combined with some spell research, and alternative types of potions you can get some really great magic items! :)
complete arcane
Potions of shatter are nice for stabbing objects such as an opponent's weapon or shield, or that door that's in your way. We once had a guy in our group use just such an injection spear on an overconfident knight in fullplate. When his armor unraveled around him leaving him nearly naked, he basically broke down and cried.
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Potions of shatter are nice for stabbing objects such as an opponent's weapon or shield, or that door that's in your way. We once had a guy in our group use just such an injection spear on an overconfident knight in fullplate. When his armor unraveled around him leaving him nearly naked, he basically broke down and cried.
You can tell him to stop crying, because what happened to him was against the rules. RAW injected potions target the imbiber, not his items.
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Potions of shatter are nice for stabbing objects such as an opponent's weapon or shield, or that door that's in your way. We once had a guy in our group use just such an injection spear on an overconfident knight in fullplate. When his armor unraveled around him leaving him nearly naked, he basically broke down and cried.You can tell him to stop crying, because what happened to him was against the rules. RAW injected potions target the imbiber, not his items.
I'd tell him to keep crying, cause his jaw was just shattered![/joke]
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Potions of shatter are nice for stabbing objects such as an opponent's weapon or shield, or that door that's in your way. We once had a guy in our group use just such an injection spear on an overconfident knight in fullplate. When his armor unraveled around him leaving him nearly naked, he basically broke down and cried.You can tell him to stop crying, because what happened to him was against the rules. RAW injected potions target the imbiber, not his items.
could have been a sunder attack?
I don't know if anybody else brought this up but the Iron Cobra can inject potions through it's bite (specifically states so in it's description), so there is a way for unusual potions to be advantageous. The injector-spear-whatevers could work the same way.
Some spellcasters even fill these reservoirs with potions, so that when the cobra bites, it injects the potion into its target. This is a somewhat dangerous method for gaining the effects of a potion, but it does free up the cobra's master to do other things in a combat round apart from quaffing potions.
Potions can be oils too. They target whatever they coat.
Potions can be oils too. They target whatever they coat.
+1
Turn them into thrown weapons.
Potions can be oils too. They target whatever they coat.
Some of them were meant to be potions, and others as oils. It was not meant to be a free mix and match as you wish. The oils have to be rubbed on as a standard action, not just merely splashed on someone. Look at the 3.5 DMG for examples of which things would be oils, and what would be potions, but in neither event were any meant to be splash weapons. You will notice you don't see a potion of fireball.
PRD
Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed..........
Activation: Drinking a potion or applying an oil requires no special skill. The user merely removes the stopper and swallows the potion or smears on the oil. The following rules govern potion and oil use.
Drinking a potion or using an oil is a standard action.
My Iron cobra is still a valid option though...
doesnt quite work that way. you need to take a standard action to coat a weapon, maybe longer for armor. throwing =/= coatingPotions can be oils too. They target whatever they coat.+1
Turn them into thrown weapons.
Though I agree with you in terms of the rules, I can't think of a better way to destroy verisimilitude.
Karuikage? Do you think they meant for it to read "minor shadow", or that they were going for "kuroikage" or "black shadow"?
Righteous might and Divine Power. Those 2 spells are slightly OP in the hands of a cleric. If a fighter could get a potion, it would be insane.Potions top out at 3rd level spells, so no need to worry about that.Ok, how about a fighter with Divine Favor + Mirror Image + Blink + Expeditious Retreat + Invisibility Purge + Shield
The point is to place some limits on what buffs anyone can easily get.
Just to be clear, your hypothetical fighter just quaffed 1950gp of potions (if they were at minimum caster level) over a period of 6 rounds before or during combat. 2 of the potions mentioned have rounds per level duration, while 2 more of them have 1 minute duration which have already been eaten into because the time it takes to drink all those potions.
Some personal spells would be great as potions, shield for one. Is there a compelling reason to limit them? Only if you feel that clerics and wizards deserve to have special spells that no one can use. Well no one who doesn't have UMD or is an alchemist.
Also if it really was OP for personal spells to be potions, why do alchemist get to make infusions of spells like shield, true strike, and transformation?
This spear-stabbity-thing stretches credibility a bit for me, it seems so very... 'gnomish', I just do not like the flavor of people walking around with giant syringes to stab all manner of creatures in the ass.
Not for a non-comical campaign or marihuana-induced gaming session at least..
This spear-stabbity-thing stretches credibility a bit for me, it seems so very... 'gnomish', I just do not like the flavor of people walking around with giant syringes to stab all manner of creatures in the ass.
I'm not that crazy about the idea either, but tastes vary of course.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This spear-stabbity-thing stretches credibility a bit for me, it seems so very... 'gnomish', I just do not like the flavor of people walking around with giant syringes to stab all manner of creatures in the ass.I'm not that crazy about the idea either, but tastes vary of course.
RPG Viewpoint: There's nothing requiring you to allow the item, but tastes vary and some folks might like the idea.
Goalrion Viewpoint: These things are used by Derro and other 'creatures of evil.' It's going to be a limiting factor in a) finding it and b) the conotations of toting in around and playing with it enough to be proficient in it.
It would be akin to wanding around in today's society with a SS dagger or Spetnaz gear. For everyone who'd go 'cool' there's at least one who would go "Where did you get that and how dare your display it openly!"
RPG Viewpoint: There's nothing requiring you to allow the item, but tastes vary and some folks might like the idea.Goalrion Viewpoint: These things are used by Derro and other 'creatures of evil.' It's going to be a limiting factor in a) finding it and b) the conotations of toting in around and playing with it enough to be proficient in it.
Real World Viewpoint: A hollow spear with moving parts in it seems like it would break down a lot. :-)
Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.
What is the rationale for this, I wonder? It seems like most "personal" spells would function perfectly well as potions.
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Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.What is the rationale for this, I wonder? It seems like most "personal" spells would function perfectly well as potions.
it keeps 2 hand fighters from drinkin potions of shield for 4 free ac, and makes shields still useful... among other reasons
Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.What is the rationale for this, I wonder? It seems like most "personal" spells would function perfectly well as potions.
In my opinion, personal spells are balanced only when used on the caster. If they weren't personal, and were able to be cast on your allies, they would be too good for their level.
Example: Mage Armor (range: touch) provides a +4 armor bonus. There are many ways to get an armor bonus and much higher than a +4 at that. This spell is only slightly unbalanced when cast on a monk. Most other fighting classes would rather have armor from another source.
Shield (range: personal) provides a +4 shield bonus. Not much of a difference (except duration) to the wizard who casts shield and mage armor. However, shield bonuses are hard to come by. Using one hand to hold a shield or two weapon defense are the most common ways to get a +1, +2, or +4 (with tower shield) shield bonus. If this spell was not personal, every fighting class would be begging for the spell.
Wands and scrolls can only be used by those who can cast the spells or who have enough ranks in Use Magic Device. Potions can be used by anyone with a digestive system. If personal range spells could be made into potions, all the above balance goes away.
Now consider true strike, mirror image, and false life. These are ok spells for casters, but would be awesome spells for fighting classes.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.What is the rationale for this, I wonder? It seems like most "personal" spells would function perfectly well as potions.
Actually I think that's the issue originally. It's the 'fighter's don't get nice things' argument. Off the top of my head, shield and expedious retreat both would greatly benefit the fighter as that extra movement on a charge or the +4 to AC for the THF build. Same thing for a potion of true strike (in a beer helmet maybe?) While not as bad with the Power Attack change as it would be in 3.x. I know that even without the AC boost, being able to throw up a shield and wade into combat was invaluable for my battle sorcerer at lower levels. chugging down a potion to give me a +1 to hit and damage for a minute (divine favour) Or getting 7 rounds of haste light + HP + bonuses to hit? (divine power) I'd be downing those potions like Keith Richardson does drugs.
"Why no potions of personal range spells?"
A large part of it is game balance: If every fighter could buy potions for a +4 shield AC bonus that is weightless, requires no hand to use, AND blocks magic missiles for 50 gp, most of them would. With a 1 minute/level duration, it's actually pretty affordable to use one before each combat. Another unbalancing spell to put in a potion would be divine power: +1 luck bonus on attack AND damage rolls lasting 1 minute for 50 gp? Yes, please. It gets worse when the character can afford the CL 6 (+2 attacks/damage, 300 gp) and CL 9 (+3 attacks/damage, 450 gp) versions.
Craft Wondrous Item does not have a restriction on which spells can be placed in an item, so there is a way for non-casters to gain these benefits. However, the higher cost for such items keeps it from getting out of hand, IMO. A shield bracelet (command word, slot item, 1x/day) would cost 360 gp for a shield effect useable once per day, over 7 times the cost of a potion (granted, it's not consumable, but it's much more expensive to have multiple uses). A divine power (CL 1) item would cost 360 gp, a CL 6 version would cost 2160 gp, and a CL 9 version would cost 3240 gp for each daily use; much harder to abuse.