It is my understanding that, according to D&D fiction, summoned creatures return to their original plane upon taking lethal amounts of damage (effectively making them immortal). I have to assume that the creature's indigenous plane provides some sort of sustenance, or the creature couldn't survive there. So, if you're a starving wizard, could you potentially summon a creature, cut off a chunk of its flesh, cook it and eat it? This process seems infinitely repeatable, and at worst mildly irritating to the creature, since it never dies.
Most summoned creatures should be able to withstand a few blows before returning to their home plane. In the case of a creature like an auroch, two blows could feed the summoner's entire party.
Are there any rules to support / contradict this logic? Would the severed chunks of flesh be transported back to the home plane when the creature was transported, thereby nullifying any nutritional value it might have had?
I know this seems bizarre, but I am asking this question in earnest.
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Well, my take on it is this:
Duration 1 round/level (D)
When the duration ends, the summoned creature, including all of its meat, blood, teeth, etc. disappears with it. So, even if you could cut a chunk out of a monster and fry it up in the space of a minute or two, the meat would vanish from your stomach long before it was digested. So no, you can't eat them. Or, rather, you CAN, but it won't nourish you.
Mildly irritating?
Try to imagine being awake and fully aware of someone carving your thighs off every day for...however long it takes.
Yeesh.
Well, my take on it is this:
Duration 1 round/level (D)
When the duration ends, the summoned creature, including all of its meat, blood, teeth, etc. disappears with it. So, even if you could cut a chunk out of a monster and fry it up in the space of a minute or two, the meat would vanish from your stomach long before it was digested. So no, you can't eat them. Or, rather, you CAN, but it won't nourish you.
Thanks for the input Fatespinner. That's my take on the situation, too, but I was wondering if there were any specific rules that could inform the situation.
Edit: You allude to another interesting point - the roleplaying elements of the rushed preparation / consumption involved with the ordeal could be a lot of fun.
There is a precedent for summoned food NOT disappearing, provided you can get it in your stomach before the spell's duration runs out.
Just take a look at create water, create food and water, heroes' feast and similar spells. If I am not mistaken, they are all conjuration spells in their own right too.
Mildly irritating?
Try to imagine being awake and fully aware of someone carving your thighs off every day for...however long it takes.
Yeesh.
Kryptik I agree that it's a bit... rudimentary, but after a month or so you would imagine that the creature would get used to it. The anticipation would be extinguished via conditioning, at any rate; and given that length of time, the incisions would become clean. Most adventurers would get pretty handy with a cleaver after a few weeks :D
There is a precedent for summoned food NOT disappearing, provided you can get it in your stomach before the spell's duration runs out.
Just take a look at create water, create food and water, heroes' feast and similar spells. If I am not mistaken, they are all conjuration spells in their own right too.
Ravingdork, that's an excellent point. Create Food and Water has a duration of 24 hours, but the nourishing effects of the conjured material are pretty strongly implied to be permanent.
Is there anything in the rules to specify why the effects are permanent, or suggest that eating a summoned creature would or would not provide permanent nutrition?
on a related note, i don't get how trolls can die of starvation. they could cut a piece of their leg off and regenerate the piece back
Maybe troll flesh has no nutritive value. :P
Maybe troll flesh has no nutritive value. :Pon a related note, i don't get how trolls can die of starvation. they could cut a piece of their leg off and regenerate the piece back
Trolls are made of celery!!
According to the Prose Edda, when Thor is hungry he can roast the goats for a meal. When he wants to continue his travels, Thor only needs to bless the remains of the goats with his hammer Mjöllnir, and they will be instantly restored to full health to resume their duties, assuming that the bones have not been broken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor
I'd absolutely allow my players to research a summons they could eat. I don't know if its not a little evil but then maybe that's not a problem.
I don't think you could do it with the standard spell though. Summoning certainly exists in varied forms. I think they'd have restrictions similar to Thor never breaking or loosing a bone. Or some sort of contract with a more senior entity.
on a related note, i don't get how trolls can die of starvation. they could cut a piece of their leg off and regenerate the piece back
Name Violation, at the risk of being a huge biology dork, the metabolic process of regeneration is far more taxing than could be accounted for by the caloric intake of the appendage to be replaced.
But I suppose that the troll could still fight starvation like ****, gradually growing smaller as he consistently fell short of the calories necessary to finish the regenerative process of any given limb.
In other words, pending the nutrients involved with regeneration (probably a lot more calcium than he could glean from the severed limb), he could just keep getting smaller and smaller as he kept regrowing limbs to a fraction of their previous length.
Fear the starving mini-trolls.
According to the Prose Edda, when Thor is hungry he can roast the goats for a meal. When he wants to continue his travels, Thor only needs to bless the remains of the goats with his hammer Mjöllnir, and they will be instantly restored to full health to resume their duties, assuming that the bones have not been broken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor
I'd absolutely allow my players to research a summons they could eat. I don't know if its not a little evil but then maybe that's not a problem.
I don't think you could do it with the standard spell though. Summoning certainly exists in varied forms. I think they'd have restrictions similar to Thor never breaking or loosing a bone. Or some sort of contract with a more senior entity.
Wow, awesome reference Sigurd! And that is a really cool suggestion pending a definitive "no" on the RAW.
One kid even broke open one of the goat's bones to suck the marrow, and the goat walked with a limp the next day.
For a ridiculous question.... If my wizard is willing to swing a joint of meat as a weapon can he take it as an arcane bond?
That would mean he could eat most of it each day and in the morning it would be complete and unharmed again. Presumably unspoiled as well.
You know that if the alternative was starvation ....
Sigurd
I'd allow it. I don't know if the rules would.
But, I mean, if they wouldn't allow it, they can bite my arse.
Please note that while Heroes feats, Create water and Create food and drink are all conjuration spells they are not conjuration[summoning] spells -- they are conjuration[creation] spells -- which is a completely different category with completely different rules.
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Please note that while Heroes feats, Create water and Create food and drink are all conjuration spells they are not conjuration[summoning] spells -- they are conjuration[creation] spells -- which is a completely different category with completely different rules.
This.
Also, most of those spells have durations of 24 hours or Permanent. 24 hours is more than enough time for food to be eaten, digested, and... erm... expelled from the body.
Please note that while Heroes feats, Create water and Create food and drink are all conjuration spells they are not conjuration[summoning] spells -- they are conjuration[creation] spells -- which is a completely different category with completely different rules.This.
Also, most of those spells have durations of 24 hours or Permanent. 24 hours is more than enough time for food to be eaten, digested, and... erm... expelled from the body.
None of the spells I listed have a permanent duration. What's more, the 24 hour duration doesn't support you like you think it does. A person could eat the food in the last 5 minutes of the duration and still get full benefit from it.
That was the point that I was trying to make: That things you bring forth via magic and then eat will nourish you (short of insubstantial things like illusions).
None of the spells I listed have a permanent duration. What's more, the 24 hour duration doesn't support you like you think it does. A person could eat the food in the last 5 minutes of the duration and still get full benefit from it.
That was the point that I was trying to make: That things you bring forth via magic and then eat will nourish you (short of insubstantial things like illusions).
Spells with a permanent duration can be dispelled. Spells with an instanteous duration can not. Create water has an instanteous duration. Create food and water specifies that the created food spoils after 24 hours (unless maintained with purify food and drink) but that the water created by the spell states good (as long as not polluted by a different source). Heroes' feast specifies that the feast takes a hour and that any interruption ruins its effects.
Also:
you are ignoring the key part of the difference between summoning and creation magic. Summoning magic specifically states that everything of the summoned creature goes away when the creature does -- no matter how it goes away. Creation magic works differently.
It is akin to saying that I should be able to fail to disbelieve the illusion and gain effects from the illusionary food I eat because it's there for me.
Finally:
Just because some magic can do something doesn't mean all magic will do the same thing or have similiar results. The create food sorts of spells are all conjuration[creation] and not conjuration[summoning] they also specify how they work. As does conjuration[summoning] spells which specify they do not work as you seem to want them too.
HOWEVER:
IF you call something instead of summoning it you could kill and eat it since it is actually fully there.
Yes but there is a huge difference between summoning and creation.
The created food disappearing is more to prevent stock piling and game abuse but it allows the creation to be nourishing.
The summoned creatures don't even suffer permanent death if they are killed here. They are the stuff of magic not of menu.
IMHO. I wouldn't have a problem with a custom spell or a calling spell but the core summoning spells seem designed to give only a temporary benefit hence no summoned creatures using their magical abilities for permanent affects.
Called creatures enter our reality with consequence summoned creatures do not. Ya can't benefit from the standard summoned creatures nutritionally.
The water and feast spells were intended to nourish you so they do. The intent of the summoning spells was not to be food so they should not. By RAW there might be a way to make it work. Are you asking about RAW or RAI?
PS:I think that even by RAW they would disappear since the creature returns to their original place. If the summon was a copy of the original creature that might be a different issue by RAW, but RAI, I still would not allow it.
PS2: I don't think even a summoned animal will sit there and let you kill it, and once you do kill it then it's remains disappear. Of course the rules don't account for you attacking your own summon so that is something a DM would have to handle.
Please note that while Heroes feats, Create water and Create food and drink are all conjuration spells they are not conjuration[summoning] spells -- they are conjuration[creation] spells -- which is a completely different category with completely different rules.
That's a solid argument Abraham, and I'm pleased to see this going in a technical direction. But where did you find that, "Summoning magic specifically states that everything of the summoned creature goes away when the creature does -- no matter how it goes away." I want to believe this because it sounds legitimate, but could you cite the page number or passage you pulled this from?
Also, most of those spells have durations of 24 hours or Permanent. 24 hours is more than enough time for food to be eaten, digested, and... erm... expelled from the body.
Not all of the food is expelled. That would make eating perfunctory. The materials of interest are deconstructed and distributed throughout the body.
If the whole of summoned materials disappeared after 24 hours, it wouldn't matter whether you had digested it or not. The materials would still disappear, right out from your cells.
In fact, that could be deadly. As in DC 99 Fort Save deadly, depending on what nutrients were instantaneously extracted from your body at the expiration of the summon.
The water and feast spells were intended to nourish you so they do. The intent of the summoning spells was not to be food so they should not. By RAW there might be a way to make it work. Are you asking about RAW or RAI?
RAW.
Please note that while Heroes feats, Create water and Create food and drink are all conjuration spells they are not conjuration[summoning] spells -- they are conjuration[creation] spells -- which is a completely different category with completely different rules.That's a solid argument Abraham, and I'm pleased to see this going in a technical direction. But where did you find that, "Summoning magic specifically states that everything of the summoned creature goes away when the creature does -- no matter how it goes away." I want to believe this because it sounds legitimate, but could you cite the page number or passage you pulled this from?
PRD:
A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower....I think his logic and the designers is that everything that came with the animal is a part of the animal. Cutting a section away does not suddenly make it not magical. Since it is still magical in nature it has to act just as the summoned animal it came from and disappear when the animal dies or when the duration of the spell runs out.
p.209-210 in the Core Rulebook.
"A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead." p.210
I would go so far as to say that if you broach the terms of the summoning - ie choose to attack it with knife and fork - you will also end the spell and the creature will vanish.
That's why you'd need a special spell that creates or calls a sacrificial creature. You basically need a death to have a body.
p.209-210 in the Core Rulebook.
"A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead." p.210
I would go so far as to say that if you broach the terms of the summoning - ie choose to attack it with knife and fork - you will also end the spell and the creature will vanish.
That's why you'd need a special spell that creates or calls a sacrificial creature. You basically need a death to have a body.
Thanks for the citation Sigurd.
Also, my previous point about nutrients being extracted from your system is irrelevant I think, because the food created by Create Food and Water doesn't disappear, it just spoils.
So [creation] you can eat, [conjuration] you can't, because [conjuration]s leave the plane at the expiration of the spell or breach of summoning conditions. Got it.
Thanks for the info, everyone.
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The Mount spell lasts 2 hours per level. Extended, that's 4 hours per level.
6th level caster could cast an extended Mount spell and have it last 24 hours easy.
Now, whether or not cutting off a piece while leaving the animal alive (not breaking the 0hp rule) is within the wording of the contract is another matter (serves you as a mount... hmm... define "serve").
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p.209-210 in the Core Rulebook.
"A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead." p.210
I would go so far as to say that if you broach the terms of the summoning - ie choose to attack it with knife and fork - you will also end the spell and the creature will vanish.
That's why you'd need a special spell that creates or calls a sacrificial creature. You basically need a death to have a body.
Thanks for the citation Sigurd.
Also, my previous point about nutrients being extracted from your system is irrelevant I think, because the food created by Create Food and Water doesn't disappear, it just spoils.
So [creation] you can eat, [summoning] you can't, because [summoning]s leave the plane at the expiration of the spell or breach of summoning conditions. Got it.
Thanks for the info, everyone.
Fix'd that for you.
Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.
Here's what the Core Rules are on [creation] spells.
Of course you can eat summoned fare. And then it disappears! You get all the nice things associated with eating (it tastes yummy), but not the fattening aspects that would ruin your figure.
Many model arcanists swear by it - a lot more elegant than showing their magic wands down their throats to throw up.
Of course you can eat summoned fare. And then it disappears! You get all the nice things associated with eating (it tastes yummy), but not the fattening aspects that would ruin your figure.
Many model arcanists swear by it - a lot more elegant than showing their magic wands down their throats to throw up.
+1
What about the Summoner class by the way? 1 minute per level instead of 1 round per level. Said creature could, y'know, stay a while to cook?
Personally, I agree that by RAI, you can't effectively eat a Summoned creature, that all of it disappears when it gets to 0 HP or the spell ends.
Let me throw in a monkey wrench, however.
As a 3rd level wizard, I use Summon Monster II to summon a Giant Centipede.
On round 2 of its 3 round duration, the Centipede successfully bites, applying Poison with a frequency of 1/round for 6 rounds. At the end of round 3, does the poison disappear along with the Centipede, saving the victim from further effects?
If the poison stays, then the consistent position is that anything you can wolf down during the duration is nutritious (it continues affecting the body after the disappearance of the creature).
If the poison disappears, then the consistent position is that Summoned monsters can not be used as food, but the utility of Summoned monsters with venom is reduced.
Personally, I'll go with the inconsistent position...Poison stays & creature can't be used as food, and my defense is "It's magic, live with it." But there are others for whom that internal consistency is more important.
Personally, I agree that by RAI, you can't effectively eat a Summoned creature, that all of it disappears when it gets to 0 HP or the spell ends.
Let me throw in a monkey wrench, however.
As a 3rd level wizard, I use Summon Monster II to summon a Giant Centipede.
On round 2 of its 3 round duration, the Centipede successfully bites, applying Poison with a frequency of 1/round for 6 rounds. At the end of round 3, does the poison disappear along with the Centipede, saving the victim from further effects?If the poison stays, then the consistent position is that anything you can wolf down during the duration is nutritious (it continues affecting the body after the disappearance of the creature).
If the poison disappears, then the consistent position is that Summoned monsters can not be used as food, but the utility of Summoned monsters with venom is reduced.
Personally, I'll go with the inconsistent position...Poison stays & creature can't be used as food, and my defense is "It's magic, live with it." But there are others for whom that internal consistency is more important.
Making a save does not equal the poison going away. It just means you negated the effect. The way I look at it, even if the poison leaves your body once you are poisoned the damage is done. You can't take the poison out and expect the ability damage to go away. :)
Making a save does not equal the poison going away. It just means you negated the effect. The way I look at it, even if the poison leaves your body once you are poisoned the damage is done. You can't take the poison out and expect the ability damage to go away. :)
You can't expect the damage to go away, but you could reasonably expect not to take further damage if the venom no longer exists, just as would be the case if the poison were Neutralized.
From Neutralize Poison:
You detoxify any sort of venom in the creature or object touched
...
A cured creature suffers no additional effects from the poison, and any temporary effects are ended, but the spell does not reverse instantaneous effects, such as hit point damage, temporary ability damage, or effects that don't go away on their own.
Poison being Neutralized and poison simply ceasing to exist seem roughly equivalent to me.
Let me throw in a monkey wrench, however.
As a 3rd level wizard, I use Summon Monster II to summon a Giant Centipede.
On round 2 of its 3 round duration, the Centipede successfully bites, applying Poison with a frequency of 1/round for 6 rounds. At the end of round 3, does the poison disappear along with the Centipede, saving the victim from further effects?If the poison stays, then the consistent position is that anything you can wolf down during the duration is nutritious (it continues affecting the body after the disappearance of the creature).
If the poison disappears, then the consistent position is that Summoned monsters can not be used as food, but the utility of Summoned monsters with venom is reduced.
That's a really good point Ramarren. I myself am one of those OCD people who needs consistency, particularly when the enforcement of a rule is involved.
It seems that, assuming conjuration[summoning] spells function as cited by Sigurd, any lingering effects would disappear when the summon expires. A la your poison example. If nutrients leave the digestive track, then poison would leave the bloodstream.
I'm anxious to see if anyone can cite rules to legitimize or disprove that logic.
Well, there's the line of logic that if something enters your body (poison, meat for food), it mixes with your body and changes, thus no longer being part of the original creature, and you've now made it your own.
This would mean that if you kept them alive long enough to ingest the meat, it'd stay. And poison would continue after they were gone as well.
But anyways.. an extended Mount spell means you can easily eat and process horseflesh before the spell expires anyways. Just keep that mount alive.
Are there any Terry Pratchett fans out there?
How can anyone not be?
Of course you can eat summoned fare. And then it disappears! You get all the nice things associated with eating (it tastes yummy), but not the fattening aspects that would ruin your figure.
Many model arcanists swear by it - a lot more elegant than showing their magic wands down their throats to throw up.
KaeYoss actually makes an interesting concept ... a cantrip that summons single-serve pastries, cakes and other 'snack' food, but doesn't actually serve a purpose other than giving the character something enjoyable to do.
Illusion spell, perhaps, rather than a Conjuration (Summoning) would be a little less "You're warping the very laws of nature for a slice of cheesecake?" "So GOOOOOOOOOOOD!*toes curl*" moments.
To answer the OP:
No, but a summoned creature can eat you.
Well said.
Nothing like seeing your character end his career as a tinny smelling burp.
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Note to self; research a low-level Calling spell, for eatin.
"What are you summoning?" "Celestial meatloaf, it can Smite Hunger once / day."
I wonder if there are illusionary feasts in some decadent places (very popular in Geb, I'd imagine, where the participants might not be able to enjoy the taste of real food and wine), that allow the participants to gorge themselves on exotic delicacies from all over the world, produced by illusionist/chefs specialized in such fare, producing lavish meals that never fill up their wealthy patrons (although some small amount of real food is actually served, beneath the illusions, to prevent deceived bellies from filling with digestive acid and causing distress later...).
In places like Ustalav or in fey-friendly Gnomish communities tucked away in the middle of Kyonin like Omesta or whatever, the local residents might not be able to conveniently import all sorts of luxuries from around the worlf for their feasts, unlike someone living it up in Absalom, and so the illusionist/chef prepares elegant and sumptuous feasts spun from glamer, and woven over some otherwise fine quality local (but not nearly as glamorous) fare. Regular participants in these illusory feasts might veer in the direction of eating so little *real* food that they become anorexic and sickly or in the opposite direction of eating real food the same way they eat shadows and glamer at the illusory feats, in improbably and unhealthy quantities, growing immensely obese, because they've grown so used to eating for hours without getting full that they treat real meals the same way they treat the illusory equivalent, as opportunities to gorge.
I think magical food spells would be easier as transmutation or illusion. I think of the White Queen turning snow into turkish taffy in the Narnia movie or people starving to death as they believe they are eating fey feasts because there's no real food there.
Conjuring seems like a lot of work to create out of nothing. Why not turn snow into tiramisu or water into wine. The permanence and stability of your starting material would seem to make the spell easier.
Sigurd