The pathfinder core rulebook states on page 549 that you can spend 4 hours a day during meals, morning preparation and watch to net 2 hours worth of work on making potions.
My DM is arguing with me on this point, saying that it would take too much time to get all set up and then break everything back down. I see it as mixing herbs, and spell components in a bowl and storing them while traveling. Then at lunch, heating up water and adding the mix. During watch adding final ingredients and the magical component, which for my alchemist would be an extract ( could either just use the slot or i could make it and mix it together) Either way, this seems like very little set up and the rule makes sense to me.
I was curious on how other view this
You've found the relevant citation in the text. Rules favor you, until you hit Rule Zero.
I don't see any problem with letting you brew potions as you travel. Potions are great to have at lower levels, but they're more expensive than scrolls or wands. It's nice to put some emergency cure potions aside in case the cleric goes down, maybe a few useful buff spells. Not game-breaking at all. And the process you describe is exactly how I'd picture it. I just wouldn't be brewing potions on my watch!
Really, how long does it take to set up and start a fire, set a kettle over it, brew up some stew, put up tents, and whatnot? Can it take a good deal of time? Sure. But you only set up tents in the evening. Making lunch doesn't take that long, even less if you're not cooking and just pull out a wheel of cheese, some bread, and some fruit. It's not going to take long to set up that fire and use it to do a little brewing at lunch either, not unless your entire world is dismally wet and rainy. In which case, yeah, getting firewood would be a royal pain;)
The pathfinder core rulebook states on page 549 that you can spend 4 hours a day during meals, morning preparation and watch to net 2 hours worth of work on making potions.
My DM is arguing with me on this point, saying that it would take too much time to get all set up and then break everything back down. I see it as mixing herbs, and spell components in a bowl and storing them while traveling. Then at lunch, heating up water and adding the mix. During watch adding final ingredients and the magical component, which for my alchemist would be an extract ( could either just use the slot or i could make it and mix it together) Either way, this seems like very little set up and the rule makes sense to me.
I was curious on how other view this
I think your DM might be overdoing it, if we are talking about extracts here which are the alchemist's equivalent of a caster preparing spells. Extracts do not equal brewed potions. while a DM can certainly make life tough on a spell caster when he wants them to feel the limitations of spell preparation, I don't think its fair to say that as a general rule alchemists cannot prepare extracts in the wild because "its too time consuming".
Furthermore if anyone could brew potions in the wild with a fire and little else, it would be an alchemist.
extract- you should be able to do pretty much anywhere- In my head, I see them as herbs and such in a suspension of solvent (alchohol or oil) that more or less "brew" in your pack.
Potions are a bit trickier, but frankly, there is no mention of needing a fire or even special vessels. If your character has sunk the gold into the components, I'd jut call it good RP for the "mad scientist" to always be cackling by the fire. And occasionally, he explodes :)
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I have to agree here with Ender_rpm and Anburaid. It sounds like your DM is being rather nitpicky. If you have a Alcehmist set for example (Masterwork or not)gives you everything you really need I believe to brew etc. Teamwork is everything with your party and I would think that everyone would pick up the slack. If your brewinig potions for the Party's well being, the least they could do is set up your tent, cook your food.
Our party always carrys potion belt, and the Cleric usually has extra vials in their Alchemy sets just in case. Its always to be well prepared.... party member goes down grab a potion from their belt or yours and stuff it down their mouth... yummy!
Also, 2 hours of work only gets you potion worht les than 250GP (market, not cost to produce) so your character cranking out 1x 1st or 2nd level potion /day, as long as he has the components, doesn't seem game breaking.
UNLESS the DM is trying to run a gritty. low healing availability campaign. In that case, try to talk it out and see if you can accommodate his AND your desires.
Its always to be well prepared.... party member goes down grab a potion from their belt or yours and stuff it down their mouth... yummy!
And with the Alchemist brewing the potions, you don't have to worry about that Cure potion tasting like the bottom of a Troll's foot (unless it's a fast healing potion), or that potion of Heroism tasting-- well, like victory(?), though I suspect an Invisibility potion would taste like much of nothing..
Here we have the classic clash between gamist and simulationist.
The simulationist would say that you're following a recipe. Spreading that out all day won't work. Consider baking a cake. If you mix the batter in the morning, then carry it around until dinner when you bake it halfway, then pull it off the heat while it's still only half done, go to sleep, wake up at 2am for your turn at watch, and put your half-baked cake back on the fire to finish baking it - will it be any good?
Try that with a quiche...
Magical potions might even be more delicate than that. I mean, cakes are magically delicious, but they can't turn you invisible or heal serious injuries. So if baking a cake all day won't work, how can you brew a potion all day and expect it to work.
Now, the gamist would say that we need fair and balanced rules that support the players. If a weaponsmith wants to work on a sword, all he needs is a traveling anvil, a wetstone, and an occasional fire. He can bang on it at mealtimes and sharpen the blade on watch, so long as he spends 4 hours each day it doesn't matter when those 4 hours happen.
Not letting a potion brewer have the same privilege is unfair to the adventuring brewer. It favors one skillset over another. That is imbalance in the rule system and should be avoided in a set of game rules.
Fortunately for the gamist, the game rules don't make this distinction. Spend your 4 hours whenever you want, and it doesn't matter whether you're forging a sword, brewing a potion, or baking a cake.
It's only a problem when the gamist rules clash with a simulationist DM.
No matter how this resolves, someone probably won't be happy with the outcome. Either the player will think his DM is unfair, or the DM will think he was backed into making a gamist decision that is unrealistic to his world-view. Or maybe they'll compromise and find middle ground (probably by wording the fluff so that they can both get their heads around the rules) which won't really solve it to both players' satisfaction.
I would suggest that the best resolution is the one in the rulebook. It's fair to all players regardless of which feat or skill they're using for their crafting. Yes, it's strange and nonsensical to brew a potion all day long, starting and stopping whenever you want, but at least it's fair across the board. If the DM wants to housrule a more realistic but less fair solution, it's surely his choice to do it, but hopefully with all the support of a table full of simulationist players who buy into the change.
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Here we have the classic clash between gamist and simulationist.
The simulationist would say that you're following a recipe. Spreading that out all day won't work. Consider baking a cake. If you mix the batter in the morning, then carry it around until dinner when you bake it halfway, then pull it off the heat while it's still only half done, go to sleep, wake up at 2am for your turn at watch, and put your half-baked cake back on the fire to finish baking it - will it be any good?
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I would suggest that the best resolution is the one in the rulebook. It's fair to all players regardless of which feat or skill they're using for their crafting. Yes, it's strange and nonsensical to brew a potion all day long, starting and stopping whenever you want, but at least it's fair across the board. If the DM wants to housrule a more realistic but less fair solution, it's surely his choice to do it, but hopefully with all the support of a table full of simulationist players who buy into the change.
I agree with everything DM_Blake has to say except his analogy.
He has no issue with the extracts, mutagens or bombs. Just potions made with brew potion feat and crafting while adventuring. When i try to use examples, of how it could work he points to the book, but when i mention the section on crafting while adventuring he says NO! I have a tough time going against the rule book, just because it doesn't fit in the way I picture things working. It's magic, so we can't exactly duplicate the circumstances and see how long it would take lol.
My thought is merely it takes some time to get all the ingreadients ground up into lets say a powder. Then later i can boil water and mix that in and add the spell component. I dont use a tent, just a bedroll, and someone else cooks.
well it also matters from a fairness perspective how the simulationism is being shared as a burden. Does the party wizard have to make spellcraft/concentration-checks rolls when he is trying to prepare spells when they party is cooking, drinking, laughing, or breaking camp? Do the fighter types have to make survival rolls to find a soft bit of ground to sleep on, so they don't start the day with a back ache? If not, I'd say that the DM is out of line in restricting the alchemist from preparing extracts, when everybody else can function normally.
edit - well limiting brew potions is certainly within the DM's rights, although I personally would allow it, with the caveat that the player can't take 10. Hope you picked the right mushrooms, because if not, cursed potion >:D
In any case its somewhat moot, because you can take the infusion discovery and convert your extracts to defacto potions.
His main issue is not even starting and stopping but that it takes too long to set up! I already have to "set up" when i make my extracts and mutagens. I just continue afterwards to work on a potion.
I allow it...unless conditions would prevent it. It's fine to sit against a tree or around a nice campfire and work on your potions or scribing scrolls or crafting. It's quite another to do it in a cramped, leaky tent while a heavy winter storm rips through the area - which were the conditions last time my PCs decided to try to scribe scrolls.
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His main issue is not even starting and stopping but that it takes too long to set up! I already have to "set up" when i make my extracts and mutagens. I just continue afterwards to work on a potion.
Honestly, he may just be running into the issue that you are making too much stuff, and this is his attempt to low you down. I can't get at the APG from work, but how long do making the mutagens and extracts take? Also, are you making potions for yourself or the group? I'd go easier on someone who was handing out potions of CLW left and right, but I'd take a long hard look at a player who only seemed to be making "hit harder" drinks, ya dig?
I'd go easier on someone who was handing out potions of CLW left and right, but I'd take a long hard look at a player who only seemed to be making "hit harder" drinks, ya dig?
So, you're advocating arbitrary GM rulings based what each potion does? It's somehow mystically easier to brew a level 1 potion that closes wounds (and requires 25 GP of ingredients and 2 hours to make), than it is to brew a level 1 potion that enlarges the fighter (and requires 25 GP of ingredients and 2 hours to make).
Do you advocate similar arbitrariness that casting Cure Light Wounds is faster (or easier) than casting Enlarge Person? What about other arbitrariness that swinging a greatsword takes longer than swinging a shortsword?
I'm not trying to pick on you, but I wanted to call attention to the fact that the rulebook has no penalties for choosing to brew useful effective potions instead of useless or ineffective potions - they all take exactly the same amount of cash, time, and other resources, no matter what kind of useful or useless application they might have. The only variable is level.
If you are suggesting that it is OK for a DM to randomly say "yes" to one potion and "no" to another potion, then that will be extremely frustrating to the player (note the frustration of the OP on this thread), not to mention unfair.
This wouldn't be something for a DM to take lightly. Ya dig? :)
This wouldn't be something for a DM to take lightly. Ya dig? :)
I agree with you on arbitrariness, but it is what it is: If I have a player who does nothing but constantly obsess over making their PC "moar UBER" than everyone else AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PARTY, I'm gonna give them a hard time about it, especially if it is causing intra-party tension, ie the Cleric pends all his time brewing and quaffing Bulls Strength potions and wading into melee, only to find all the monsters are dead, the fighter is wounded, but the cleric has no spells left because he used them to brew his own stuff.
Where as if the player is constantly handing out goodies and helping the party along, I will give them less of a hard time. Doesn't mean the amount of time spent making the potion changes, but pixies may steal a lot more from the selfish player than the non selfish player.
And yes, I agree it's somewhat arbitrary, but I think we've all been playing long enough to know when a player crosses the line from "effective" to "obnoxious".
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I agree with DM Blake.. this is something the DM should take lightly...
For Bloody sake... there are more pressing matters at hand Im sure in their campaign, story or gameplay then to dilly dally around while someone is making a potion.
The DM should be spending this time creating more imersion as in storytelling, describing the surroundings, wind, tempature, etc... then worrying about setting up to make potions....unless of course they randomly engage something while camped. Then it becomes an issue..
Vampress
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Seems minor. Heck if you don't even need to use every item then set up is even easier. You could motar and pistel all your herbs or so on then do the cooking later when you set up camp or lunch. Heck I wouldn't even care if you were getting too many potions, just a reason for the DM to cut loose and make some harder challenges to use those potions.
The creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew. In addition, he needs ingredients. The costs for materials and ingredients are subsumed in the cost for brewing the potion: 25 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.
All ingredients and materials used to brew a potion must be fresh and unused. The character must pay the full cost for brewing each potion. (Economies of scale do not apply.)
(at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Creati on)
So does the "materials" that must be unused in the second paragraph include the containers mentioned in the first? Would you need all new glassware/pots/mortar&pestle/etc for each potion?
Brewing on the road would seem terribly encumbering without a portable hole.
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buy a cart and a horse. convert the shop into a mobile lab, with everything set up.group stops, hop in cart back and to work.
but it shouldn't be any more complicated than "eye of newt, pinch of toad liver, abra cadabra"
by the dm's logic it should take too long to cast spell, removing the components from a component pouch
The rules cover brewing potions (or working on any other magic item) while adventuring. It sounds like your DM is ignoring/opposes those rules for some reason. I see four possible causes:
1. Your DM has not read AND understood the rules; specifically, that the 4 hours only nets 2 "work hours" due to set up time and the like. In a non-agressive manner, explain to him how the "adventuring day's work" does simulate the exact things he is envisioning.
2. Your DM has read and understand them, and still feels that they do not reflect his vision of magic item creation. This is a valid call on his part as DM, but it will have impact on the rest of the game world. Hold him to this ruling; do not let NPCs do what you can not with the same feat selection.
3. Your DM is trying to curb you for what he feels is a reason of game/party balance. Discuss the issue with him, in a non-confrontational manner. See if an accord can be reached, and if not, decide if his ruling will limit your fun to the point of it being better to spend your time elsewhere, or if you can accept it for the sake of the group's fun as a whole.
4. Your DM is a raging tool, flagrantly disregarding both the written rules of the game and the unspoken rules of having fun at the table. Hit him with a sack of doorknobs, in the teeth. Then walk out the door, over his prone and broken form.
You can refer him to my post if you like. His expressions upon reading it may reveal a good deal regarding which of the four possibilities it is.
I think the issue is he does not feel it reflects the way creating a magic item should work, specifically potions.
We have no party cleric, we have Myself, the alchemist, a bard, a witch, a fighter, wizard, and a Paladin hat will be absent for 1/2 dozen sessions. The potions are mainly to add more cure light to the party that others can use. I can drink my extracts but others can't.
Making all the Alchemist class extracts and mutagens covers the same time slot as a wizard or cleric preparing their spells.
After much debate we have settled on allowing it. He thinks its off to be able to work on them while adventuring but since he was going to let the wizard scribe scrolls thought it would be fair to let me work on potions.
We have ruled that of I am doing survival checks for food, i dont have enough time. Also if I'm on watch I wont get a perception check if something tries to surprise us.
We have ruled that of I am doing survival checks for food, i dont have enough time. Also if I'm on watch I wont get a perception check if something tries to surprise us.
I can see the thing with foraging, but if you're on watch I'd assume that's all your doing. Be ready to be attacked at night with this ruling....
I think the issue is he does not feel it reflects the way creating a magic item should work, specifically potions.
We have no party cleric, we have Myself, the alchemist, a bard, a witch, a fighter, wizard, and a Paladin hat will be absent for 1/2 dozen sessions. The potions are mainly to add more cure light to the party that others can use. I can drink my extracts but others can't.
Making all the Alchemist class extracts and mutagens covers the same time slot as a wizard or cleric preparing their spells.
After much debate we have settled on allowing it. He thinks its off to be able to work on them while adventuring but since he was going to let the wizard scribe scrolls thought it would be fair to let me work on potions.
We have ruled that of I am doing survival checks for food, i dont have enough time. Also if I'm on watch I wont get a perception check if something tries to surprise us.
Not to throw more gas on the fire but about that perception check, there rules precedents in the perception and stealth skill descriptions that might contradict that.
Basically lets say you are by the camp fire brewing away. The campfire shed light like a torch, we will say, giving you a 20' light radius, and we will assume you don't have dark vision.
In the perception rules it takes a move action to be "actively aware of your surroundings" essentially, to keep watch. Keeping watch denies an attacker from using stealth to creep up on you once they are beyond the concealment of darkness. while in dim light, you still get to roll perception vs there stealth for a chance to see them out to 40'.
Now your alchemist is brewing away, watching the temperature of the brew, making sure to stir. He counts as distracted, which allows an attacker to sneak right up to him and go backstabby. However, by the RAW you still get to make a perception check, albeit at a -5 for being distracted. Perhaps he steps on some dry leaves, or the firelight glints of his dagger and you just happen to turn see it out of your peripheral vision. Point is, you still get a perception check.