What if my views and values are not consistent with ANY of the 9 aligments, not even CN or N?
Humm explain them then ya have my attention
Dude - he's clearly NOT going to change his mind. Let him have his carbon-copy sociopaths that act primarily out of madness and move on with your life.
Dude, it's an Alignment thread and we have just debating. No one is making you respond to this thread and , no need for name calling or snide remarks.
This thread has been civil , I would like to keep it that way if you don't mind.
Also now that I'm actually thinking, the R/E axis needs a better name. Since a planner can be quite emotional as a motivation for lengthy schemes. Or just give it up entirely. Yeah.
Also now that I'm actually thinking, the R/E axis needs a better name. Since a planner can be quite emotional as a motivation for lengthy schemes. Or just give it up entirely. Yeah.
I vote ditch it :) These things get heated enough with just two sides to disagree about, adding a third may lead to bloodshed :)
Heh, that last quote was not mine man. Anyhow again no,your not a copy and your not lawful. The book details what makes CE well CE and if you do not act CE then your not CE.
It does not make you a copy, it's like saying "I'm playing a wizard who is just like every other wizard ever as we use the same rules and same class."
arbitrarily violent is part of the being unpredictable that is what makes him CE, I mean NE really crosses over into many things CE covers but one of the things that separates them is the fact that CE people are unpredictable and arbitrarily violent.
Your wanting to call things CE but not use what the book tells you makes a CE person CE.
I vote ditch it :) These things get heated enough with just two sides to disagree about, adding a third may lead to bloodshed :)
That's missing my point by a long shot, but I'm not going to argue. It's not the reason I'm dropping it.
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The only people even putting forward such a suggestion are those people trying to deride the CE alignment and those suggesting that seeing CE as "sociopath" is wrong - like you. It's a fallacy.
CE for a playable character can't be a sociopath. If you have a character that, by his design, wants to kill everyone including those close to him, how can you play him? You just have to play a CE evil character like a still mainstream person, just one of lesser morality.
And I've been part of games where people actually try to play CE and then literally behead quest important priests. So I'm not saying it out of social commentary, I've actually seen stupid people do it and ruin games.
Stuff like this is why I sometimes ponder a third axis (although I don't really think it's necessary): Rational vs emotional.
An RLG character is likely to consider the deeper ethical implications of a good and lawful act before acting. An ELG character serves good and law for the feeling of righteousness and justice and may not ponder too deeply, acting swiftly.
An ECE character is your typical nutcase, doing evil and causing horror for the fun of it without a great deal of thought put into why or how. An RCE is a schemer. One that is and able to make plans yet provokes chaos and destruction. Characters such as Kefka and the Joker fall into the latter, I think.
Great, now you have me thinking of doing Myers-Briggs tests on my characters.
Great, now you have me thinking of doing Myers-Briggs tests on my characters.Stuff like this is why I sometimes ponder a third axis (although I don't really think it's necessary): Rational vs emotional.
An RLG character is likely to consider the deeper ethical implications of a good and lawful act before acting. An ELG character serves good and law for the feeling of righteousness and justice and may not ponder too deeply, acting swiftly.
An ECE character is your typical nutcase, doing evil and causing horror for the fun of it without a great deal of thought put into why or how. An RCE is a schemer. One that is and able to make plans yet provokes chaos and destruction. Characters such as Kefka and the Joker fall into the latter, I think.
Omigosh, my detect alignment spell has determined that the Orc Warlord is ESTJ; that probably means that he is an effective organiser and leader--we'd better take that sucker out!
Omigosh, my detect alignment spell has determined that the Orc Warlord is ESTJ; that probably means that he is an effective organiser and leader--we'd better take that sucker out!
"No save that one he can do taxes!"
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Heh, that last quote was not mine man. Anyhow again no,your not a copy and your not lawful. The book details what makes CE well CE and if you do not act CE then your not CE.
It does not make you a copy, it's like saying "I'm playing a wizard who is just like every other wizard ever as we use the same rules and same class."
arbitrarily violent is part of the being unpredictable that is what makes him CE, I mean NE really crosses over into many things CE covers but one of the things that separates them is the fact that CE people are unpredictable and arbitrarily violent.
Your wanting to call things CE but not use what the book tells you makes a CE person CE.
It must be incredibly easy to find and kill a CE person, then, since they are ALWAYS RECKLESS and ALWAYS UNPREDICTABLE and ALWAYS MURDER FOR NO REASON. It's trite and cliche, and simply unrealistic and unexciting. Here's an example:
Player 1: "Who's the vicious murder of Sycamore Circle?"
Player 2: "I'm guessing that crazy looking guy that just stabbed someone with a knife in broad daylight."
Player 1: "Why would someone do something so f$$*ing stupid?"
Player 2: "Because he's a RECKLESS and UNPREDICTABLE MURDERER."
Player 1: "Oh, you mean he's CE, sounds realistic to me!"
It does not mean stupid, but they are what they are. You are lumping them all into the same type of persnality which is not the same thing the book has done.
A CE person is vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. That does not mean stupid reckless and crazy. It could if ya want it to but it does not by default mean that.
Lets looks at this
vicious:
1 : having the nature or quality of vice or immorality : depraved
2 : defective, faulty; also : invalid
3 : impure, noxious
4 a : dangerously aggressive : savage <a vicious dog> b : marked by violence or ferocity : fierce <a vicious fight>
5 : malicious, spiteful <vicious gossip>
6 : worsened by internal causes that reciprocally augment each other <a vicious wage-price spiral
arbitrarily:
1. Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle: stopped at the first motel we passed, an arbitrary choice.
2. Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference: The diet imposes overall calorie limits, but daily menus are arbitrary.
3. Established by a court or judge rather than by a specific law or statute: an arbitrary penalty.
4. Not limited by law; despotic: the arbitrary rule of a dictator.
violent:
. Marked by, acting with, or resulting from great force: a violent attack.
2. Having or showing great emotional force: violent dislike.
3. Marked by intensity; extreme: violent pain; a violent squall. See Synonyms at intense.
4. Caused by unexpected force or injury rather than by natural causes: a violent death.
5. Tending to distort or injure meaning, phrasing, or intent.
unpredictable: Difficult to foretell or foresee
Now you guys are saying you can only be all three in one way ever. Which is not what I have been saying at all. What I have being saying is to be CE you must be vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable as that is what makes you CE. That is the defining base of CE.
You can disagree all you want but as long as you use the AL system as written that is indeed how the book says CE people are.
And to the CE person there is always a reason for the murder, it may be "I felt like it or he insulted me or I didn't like his hair" but he has his reasons, they just might be well arbitrary.But even then that does not mean he is stupid.
4 a : dangerously aggressive : savage <a vicious dog> b : marked by violence or ferocity : fierce <a vicious fight>
1. Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle: stopped at the first motel we passed, an arbitrary choice.
1. Marked by, acting with, or resulting from great force: a violent attack.
If I made a character using this line up I could easily see the character having loyalty with their party and still being Chaotic Evil.
Using the first example (a vicious dog), there are some very vicious dogs that have packs or even mates without having a problem with killing them.
Using the first example (a vicious dog), there are some very vicious dogs that have packs or even mates without having a problem with killing them.
Sure as long as your in charge they always do what you say and never disagree with you or try to take or undermine your authority . Otherwise much like a vicious dog you will fight them and either kill them, they will become submissive or they will flee the pack.
A CE person is vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable.Why are you trying to straightjacked CE characters seeker?
I am not, that is what a CE person is by the book. Each AL has lines like that that tells you what makes them that AL. Each and every one.
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I am not, that is what a CE person is by the book. Each AL has lines like that that tells you what makes them that AL. Each and every one.A CE person is vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable.Why are you trying to straightjacked CE characters seeker?
Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity—it is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.
Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity—it is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.
Yes but persona and core values are not the same thing. Or doe all LG people act the same? Or paladins who have a far more restrictive code all act alike? Core values are not straight jackets, they are not demands your persona only be one thing, they are markers to where the road is so to speak, to what actions your pc finds acceptable and defines his moral compass.
What you guys are saying is that if you share any base values across the board you have to be copies. Bad news for paladin players in your guys games I guess.
yep guidelines on how they act, but then so is a paladins code :)
Every AL has things which they are, I can list them if ya'll would like.
how can an alignment system be both simple guidelines and a must for each alignment, i would say that as long as you follow the guidelines for the most part most of the time then you qualify for that alignment otherwise everyone would either always do what there alignments says all the time no matter what or their alignment would shift every time they do something uncharacteristic or even slightly questionable in regards to their stated alignment.
I agree you would not shift AL just because you did something out of character, unless it was a biggy. LG person killing an innocent in cold blood oer a CE person vowing never to harm another non evil person or do violence again or the like.
I never said you must act vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable at all times, What I said is when you peel back the layers that make each person themselves you get at the heart and drive of what makes them that Alignment. Deep down they are vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable, they are cruel, mean spirited, hateful and dangerous.
You guys are still acting like they must act the same yet no one has told me why they must be copies when a paladin who has a much more restrictive base value do not need to be copies?
Alignment is but one part of the make up of a character, one part that one it's own looks very restricting but it really is a defining guideline not restrictive.
If CE does not follow the book what about the other alignments? Do lawful good pc still get to be called LG when they act nothing like the LG entry says they should?
It sounds to me that some of you are really wanting to just ditch the Alignment system as you just seem not to want to use it as written.
CE for a playable character can't be a sociopath. If you have a character that, by his design, wants to kill everyone including those close to him, how can you play him? You just have to play a CE evil character like a still mainstream person, just one of lesser morality.
The only people even putting forward such a suggestion are those people trying to deride the CE alignment and those suggesting that seeing CE as "sociopath" is wrong - like you. It's a fallacy.
Unless you are playing an evil game. Which is the point.
It must be incredibly easy to find and kill a CE person, then, since they are ALWAYS RECKLESS and ALWAYS UNPREDICTABLE and ALWAYS MURDER FOR NO REASON. It's trite and cliche, and simply unrealistic and unexciting. Here's an example:
Player 1: "Who's the vicious murder of Sycamore Circle?"
Player 2: "I'm guessing that crazy looking guy that just stabbed someone with a knife in broad daylight."
Player 1: "Why would someone do something so f@@!ing stupid?"
Player 2: "Because he's a RECKLESS and UNPREDICTABLE MURDERER."
Player 1: "Oh, you mean he's CE, sounds realistic to me!"
Funny how no one has put forward that suggestion but you and people on your side of the argument.
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Funny how no one has put forward that suggestion but you and people on your side of the argument.It must be incredibly easy to find and kill a CE person, then, since they are ALWAYS RECKLESS and ALWAYS UNPREDICTABLE and ALWAYS MURDER FOR NO REASON. It's trite and cliche, and simply unrealistic and unexciting. Here's an example:
Player 1: "Who's the vicious murder of Sycamore Circle?"
Player 2: "I'm guessing that crazy looking guy that just stabbed someone with a knife in broad daylight."
Player 1: "Why would someone do something so f@@!ing stupid?"
Player 2: "Because he's a RECKLESS and UNPREDICTABLE MURDERER."
Player 1: "Oh, you mean he's CE, sounds realistic to me!"
Yes, you have. You qouted the Core Rulebook, repeatedly. This is what you stated the Core Rulebook emphasized.
Yes, you have. You qouted the Core Rulebook, repeatedly. This is what you stated the Core Rulebook emphasized.Funny how no one has put forward that suggestion but you and people on your side of the argument.It must be incredibly easy to find and kill a CE person, then, since they are ALWAYS RECKLESS and ALWAYS UNPREDICTABLE and ALWAYS MURDER FOR NO REASON. It's trite and cliche, and simply unrealistic and unexciting. Here's an example:
Player 1: "Who's the vicious murder of Sycamore Circle?"
Player 2: "I'm guessing that crazy looking guy that just stabbed someone with a knife in broad daylight."
Player 1: "Why would someone do something so f@@!ing stupid?"
Player 2: "Because he's a RECKLESS and UNPREDICTABLE MURDERER."
Player 1: "Oh, you mean he's CE, sounds realistic to me!"
Please point me to the post where I said CE is randomly and unsoundly reckless and unpredictable.
The only thing "predictable" about a CE character is that they will betray you as soon as it is more beneficial to do so than not.
In a number of sad attempts to discredit people trying to define CE, people are making patently absurd interpretations of what was actually said and then putting forth characters that far more easily fall into pretty much any alignment but CE.
It sounds to me that some of you are really wanting to just ditch the Alignment system as you just seem not to want to use it as written.Since I kicked alignment to the curb, it's hard to deny that. :)
Yep I know you have and it shows :)
What you talkin' 'bout seeker?Yep I know you have and it shows :)It sounds to me that some of you are really wanting to just ditch the Alignment system as you just seem not to want to use it as written.Since I kicked alignment to the curb, it's hard to deny that. :)
Gummy bears, they were bouncing here..and there and everywhere.
But really man some times your house rules show in your responses is all :)
And yours don't? :P You might as well tell me my white, middle class background shows.
Maybe :) my houserules never came up in this topic however.
Well while not the only thing that chaotic evil characters are said to always do this is just another thing that makes chaos super lawful. I mean this is not based on whim or fancy it is based on cold hard measured calculation and requires following a code and never deviating even in the slightest. It requires chaotic evil to constantly run long term cost benefit predictions while making multiple contingency plans then as soon as the odds tip in favor of one of their plans the code dictates that they must betray.The only thing "predictable" about a CE character is that they will betray you as soon as it is more beneficial to do so than not.
In a number of sad attempts to discredit people trying to define CE, people are making patently absurd interpretations of what was actually said and then putting forth characters that far more easily fall into pretty much any alignment but CE.
+1
that was one of my points in an earlier post, you cant say a chaotic character will always do something, that goes against the chaotic alignment.
Not in the lest, all Alignments are predicable at some level, every one. Not to offend but you guys do not understand how alignments work very well.
or... perhaps it is you! who do not understand alignments...
lol
I however follow the book on Alignments where you guys have pretty much said you ignore them to make them fit how you think they should work.
What most of you are wanting to call CE is not backed up by the book or anything written at all.
If you want to do it like that cool, more power to ya.but at lest know your house ruling and changing it from the standard measure of what makes CE be CE.
But ya know this has been a fun debate :)
I feel that you guys are being too literal with what is says in the book about Chaotic Evil and are saying that there is a strict guideline to how a character must act and what he must do to remain in an alignment and any deviation from that will automatically change that alignment.
I have seen some of you post that not everyone of the same alignment will be the same and can have their own personality but at the same time you make comments stating that if you are of a certain alignment then you must act a set way or your alignment changes.
It seems to me that you guys feel that there is only one way to play Chaotic Evil and that is the way a DM plays most monsters and villains even though PC's are supposed to be unique compared to NPC's.
I am thinking that maybe this thread has gone as far as its going to go, i am sure we can all peacefully agree to disagree.
I feel that you guys are being too literal with what is says in the book about Chaotic Evil and are saying that there is a strict guideline to how a character must act and what he must do to remain in an alignment and any deviation from that will automatically change that alignment.
This is not what I have said. They have a strict guideline for what base actions and morals are yes, but that is not a straight jacket, but is the base root for how that AL reacts. You guys just do not like what the root of CE is. And I never said Auto change, but if your actions do not match your AL you have the wrong one on your sheet
I have seen some of you post that not everyone of the same alignment will be the same and can have their own personality but at the same time you make comments stating that if you are of a certain alignment then you must act a set way or your alignment changes.
Yes, person is not the same thing as root actions and how you see and interact with things. If it was the case every single paladin would be a copy, which we know they are not.
They manage to be distinctive and different and yet are far more restricted in their actions then anything I have posted. Something your saying is not possible.
It seems to me that you guys feel that there is only one way to play Chaotic Evil and that is the way a DM plays most monsters and villains even though PC's are supposed to be unique compared to NPC's.
This is incorrect, there are many ways to run every AL, however each has a base that makes them that AL. You expect LG to be an honest and good man. You expect CE to be a violent, evil and unpredictable man.
It just goes with the alignment, The reason most really evil monsters are CE is because what CE is and how it acts not because it looks cool on the statblock.
I am thinking that maybe this thread has gone as far as its going to go, i am sure we can all peacefully agree to disagree.
Eh sure that works.
Well while not the only thing that chaotic evil characters are said to always do this is just another thing that makes chaos super lawful. I mean this is not based on whim or fancy it is based on cold hard measured calculation and requires following a code and never deviating even in the slightest. It requires chaotic evil to constantly run long term cost benefit predictions while making multiple contingency plans then as soon as the odds tip in favor of one of their plans the code dictates that they must betray.The only thing "predictable" about a CE character is that they will betray you as soon as it is more beneficial to do so than not.
In a number of sad attempts to discredit people trying to define CE, people are making patently absurd interpretations of what was actually said and then putting forth characters that far more easily fall into pretty much any alignment but CE.
1) No, it doesn't. Non sequitor. You are about to get attacked by a dragon. In the future, if your party survives, you could be gods! Or, you could be eaten by a dragon right now. Which do you choose? I don't know, do you think you can betray your party in such a way as to NOT get eaten by a dragon?
2) Then by your argument EVERYONE is Lawful. Everyone.
or... perhaps it is you! who do not understand alignments...
lol
No, I posit you and WWWW don't. If your argument is "always doing something makes you Lawful" then there are NO OTHER ALIGNMENTS on the Law/Chaos axis than Lawful. All alignments predictably adhere to their alignment. If that makes them Lawful, there there are exactly 3 alignments: LE, LN, and LG.