Why does Heaven Oracle not get Scintillating Pattern?

[John Pryor]

Well, I'm with you on this up to a point. Referring to your example, Heavenly Harry blasts them, two of 3 fail and are treated as 2 HD for calculating the effect of Color Spray on them (duration, type of effect, and so forth). However, imo, they are not 2 HD when you cast the next spell. You have to start over again; there's no lasting effect that reduces them to 2 HD. That's point one. Moving on...

In your wording, you said hypnotism. I'm going to assume you meant Hypnotic Pattern (which is a different spell) since that's what we were talking about previously. I don't have my books in front of me, but IIRC a 2HD creature who is affected by Color Spray is blind for some period of time. Hypnotic Pattern is not going to work on these 2 coppahs while they're blind.

This then becomes a very interesting example to me. So, there are 3 coppahs, 2 of which are now blind. You cast Hypnotic Pattern. Two of the coppahs cannot be affected by the spell since they are blind, so does that mean the spell automatically targets the 3rd coppah? Or do I still have to affect the nearest targets first, subtracting HD from my pool, even though they cannot possibly be affected, before I can tell if the 3rd guy has to save? My head is beginning to hurt, but surely this has been ruled upon at some time in the past since it really is not dependent upon whether or not you have the revelation. This is purely a blind target vs Hypnotic Pattern question.

In either case, the example you provided doesn't get to the question of whether the revelation affects the pool of HD you have for determining how many targets may be affected when you cast Hypnotic Pattern.

Not meaning to be a PITA here. Just trying to understand, so I can gently steer my GM.

[Turin the Mad]

Ah. Well, I was presuming that Heavenly Harry would engage in fighting defensively or somesuch until he blasted coppah #3 with more color sprays before coup de grace'ing the lot and taking their stuff.

If you've already blasted coppahs 1 and 2 into coma-land, coppah 3 is more susceptible by way of being the only critter you can target with the hypnotism or hypnotic pattern spell. IIRC hypnotism is a - ah, I see the mistake now. Yes, I had hypnotic pattern on the brain.

In the three coppahs scenario, you are likely to be better off blasting coppah 3 with another color spray.

If you are facing 3 coppahs with hypnotic pattern, since they each only count as 2 HD for the pattern's HD limit, your 3rd level Oracle only needs to have rolled a 3 on 2d4 to snare all 3 of them with the pattern. You could, rolling 7 on 2d4 with 3rd level +3 Cha bonus Heavenly Harry, snare as many as five 5 HD creatures. With a 17 DC you have a decent shot at it against low base Will save targets too.

A blinded target is one you won't waste time attempting to blast with your patterns - and since they are blind, they aren't viable targets for such spells' effects.

If Heavenly Harry still has a mere 16 Cha when he gets his grubby mits on rainbow pattern, it can snare a single target with as many as 27 HD, two 15 HD targets, three 11 HD targets, four 9 HD targets and so on, with a cap of 24 4 HD targets. And that's with only a +3 Cha bonus...

[LazarX]

Yasha wrote:

This thread has certainly taken on a life of its own.

Since Awesome Display seems to have become the main discussion of this thread, here is my take.

"
Awesome Display (Su)
Your phantasmagoric displays accurately model the mysteries of the night sky, dumbfounding all who behold them. Creatures affected by your illusion (pattern) spells are treated as if their total number of Hit Dice were equal to their number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier to determine the effect of the illusion (pattern) spell cast (if positive, minimum 1)."

Bold Emphasis Mine (i.e. text I added)

A short bit of wording and it seems perfectly clear. Granted, there is the possibility that my interpretation is not what the writers intend with this ability. However, in the interest of the theme of the Heavenly Oracle, enhanced effects from Illusion (pattern) spells makes sense.

Having the patterns effectively reduce the HD (if only a phantom loss) for the purpose of determining the way other spells affect them while they are under the influence of a Pattern spell cast by the Oracle seems a bit off. This is the scenario that a few people mentioned above about 'Holy Word' becoming more effective suddenly. I don't think this is what the ability is saying though.

The Revelation DOES NOT reduce the HD of the target. It makes the illuson/pattern spells more effective as if the target's HD were lower. It has ABSOLUTELY NO IMPACT on the effectiveness of non-pattern spells.

[Turin the Mad]

Which is all that was being discussed. In this case, how the 5 HD coppahs counted as 2 HD coppahs for resolving color spray, hypnotic pattern and rainbow pattern..

[caith]

Reviving this thread...would like to have this resolved.

The way I see it, Awesome Display effectively boosts Pattern spells so that they affect a creature as though their HD were lowered by your Cha mod, regardless of whether they save. This is, of course, the simplest and broadest interpretation. We can debate the use of 'affected' all day, but my interpretation is any creature the spell is cast on and *allowed* a save is 'affected'.

Rainbow Pattern wrote:

A glowing, rainbow-hued pattern of interweaving colors fascinates those within it. Rainbow pattern fascinates a maximum of 24 HD of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell's point of origin are affected first. An affected creature that fails its saves is fascinated by the pattern.

Awesome Display wrote:

Awesome Display (Su): Your phantasmagoric displays accurately model the mysteries of the night sky, dumbfounding all who behold them. Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive).

So the scenario I see is...

Joe Schmo casts Color Spray on 4 Ogres(HD 4). Joe Schmo has 18 Cha, and so reduces the Ogres effective HD by 4. Color Spray has no HD limit, so each Ogre is affected by the spell as though it had 0 HD. They all fail their saves and are unconscious.

I don't see too many problems with this scenario. Color Spray has no HD limit anyways, and merely increases the efficacy of the spell, albeit in a massive way.

A problem could occur when starting to use Hypnotic Pattern at 4th level, and other spells with HD limits. Can you affect as many 4 HD creatures as can fit into the spells considerable area for Concentration + 2 rounds(assuming each one fails its save)? Seems kinda odd...thoughts?

[thenovalord]

i have a level 8 pfs oracle of heaven
she rox this abiity
heavens oracs dont need any more help

[The Golux]

I'd like to raise an objection to one of the other things said earlier... Are we sure that you can't move/walk around while using Lure of the Heavens' 5th-level ability? It says "as if levitating," not "as the spell levitation," and it fits better thematically to me to be walking on air, as an advancement from barely touching the ground at level 1, but with the altitude limitation to make it less powerful (and then the next step is flight above that level).

[Phasics]

oh hello my old thread, nice to see you again ;)