When I first got introduced to RPGs, it was love at first sight. I got to pick everything about a custom made character that I got to act out and make decisions that directly changed the story! I was 15 or 16 and every aspect of gaming had me enthralled. Like playing a new video game, everything was new and enchanting... there was actual magic in the air every time I played. I liked to sit around and make character after character just to make them, even if they'd never actually get played. I didn't know a lot about rules and didn't bother learning more than I needed to know to play the game on a basic level. I never worried about how powerful my character was... I played a given concept because I thought it sounded neat. Now, a few years shy of 20 years later I find myself far more blase about RPGs in general. Am I outgrowing them, or is it that because I immerse myself in the rules so much in any system I play in, I've become detached from the very thing I fell in love with about RPGs in the first place? I just don't get -excited- about games in the same way I did when I was younger. Has this happened to anyone else? If so, why do you think it happens?
i know what you mean, i used to just come up with a concept and picked all my race and class and feats that fit the best with that concept. now i just try and make what ever works best and then find a concept that goes with it.
I recommend moving to a more rules-light system. Possibly with something other than dice.
It sounds like you're aware of a problem getting to caught up in rules, but what you miss is the wide-open experience of youthful gaming (where the rules are often ignored anyway).
Five or six years ago I felt much the same way you do now. I gave up entirely for about two years. Then things changed, my philosophy changed, and now I play more games than ever. The experience is better overall, too.
The hobby is as mature as you make it, so don't give up. Think about the experience you want, and find the system and people that enable that.
Yeah mate, I feel it too. I believe it was Monte cook that said something about it too. WE got caught up in the new generation of gamers and games and became rules lawyers... it sucks really. Although, I do have ONE game that I don't do that, but it's a 2nd edition game that I play with REALLY old school gamers with a miriad of rules that "only the DM" knows about, and in fact, I don't even care. That's the best game for me, I gotta say, I'm even tired of being me sometimes, that got so caught up in the crunch that I forget sometimes the simple and awesome things about RPG.
Yeah mate, I feel it too. I believe it was Monte cook that said something about it too. WE got caught up in the new generation of gamers and games and became rules lawyers... it sucks really.
In my personal experience, rules lawyering has nothing to do with it. As a kid, I loved spending hours creating dozens and dozens of characters for Champions/HERO, one of the most rules-heavy systems out there (at least at the time). Now, not so much, although I still like playing RPGs. I just grew up and my interests (partially) moved on.
Yeah mate, I feel it too. I believe it was Monte cook that said something about it too. WE got caught up in the new generation of gamers and games and became rules lawyers... it sucks really.In my personal experience, rules lawyering has nothing to do with it. As a kid, I loved spending hours creating dozens and dozens of characters for Champions/HERO, one of the most rules-heavy systems out there (at least at the time). Now, not so much, although I still like playing RPGs. I just grew up and my interests (partially) moved on.
Mate, you may have played any system, with any rules and all, but did it BOTHER you, I mean REALLY if the DM modified something on the fly?
I was totally cool before, as time passed I became something of a pain... it sucks, I have to keep my cool not to spoil some "rules-light" games. But I'm getting there. :) But I gotta say, it all started with 3.5...
Mate, you may have played any system, with any rules and all, but did it BOTHER you, I mean REALLY if the DM modified something on the fly?
I don't know what to tell you; my "the magic is (partly) gone" story has nothing to do with rules lawyering and everything to do with interests changing over time. YMMV, of course.
I don't know what to tell you; my "the magic is (partly) gone" story has nothing to do with rules lawyering and everything to do with interests changing over time. YMMV, of course.
Mate, you may have played any system, with any rules and all, but did it BOTHER you, I mean REALLY if the DM modified something on the fly?
It happens too... mine is more about ruleslawyering though.. when the "power" leaves the hand of the DM the game becomes kinda lame to me...
When the magic was gone for me, I just switched the system. We played 1E for a long time, and started 2E, when it just got boring. Therefore we tried GURPS and played that for at least 5 years if not longer. After that D&D had changed enough, that we gave it a try again.
Another suggestion is to change the genre to sci-fi, or something similar, or just take a break, until you find the right group that shares your interests when playing.
But there are so many other things in life that influences our free time, that if you find the game is no longer exciting, you may have moved on to better things, or different hobbies or interests.
There are a few solutions, but ultimately the answer to losing the magic is "take it back."
Sometimes, it's simply burnout. You play 3 - 5 games a week for six months and suddenly, you can't put any real effort into anything. Sometimes is the people, no new blood, no new ideas, things can stagnate. Usually, taking a break for a month can help in those cases.
If you find yourself just being too obsessed with the rules, then get together with your group, tell them you want to make concepts, then characters, and they can't go the other way. Try playing a game with a 0 point buy for a few adventures. Or just roll 3d6 in order for stats and play whatever class fits. Get the group together and agree to tone things down. Let the players make less than optimized characters and let the DM lighten the monsters slightly, and focus on the rules. Or better yet, if you have someone capable of doing this... Try running a game with no rules and no rolls. Just a description of the characters, and what the DM thinks is reasonable to happen when a character of that level tries something.
As for other games, sometimes just playing a different game for a bit can help. Shadowrun 4th ed is really cool, and has the orcs, elves, and dwarves you like. Dresden Files RPG has a very different set of rules based on story and using fate to adjust what's happening. Amber has no dice and is 100% storytelling. Deadlands, All Flesh must be Eaten, or Chthulutech would be a radical change of pace. Similarly, Spirit of the Century, Don't Rest your Head, My Life with Master, BESM, World Tree are all shorter lighter games that can be done with a single rulebook.
If there's a local LARP, give it a shot. Even if you don't like it, it might give you the break you need to return to gaming with a fresh start.
There are other urban fantasy games that are good, In Nomine being a personal favorite. L5R or Exalted are a fun martial arts romp, although may require more of an investment then a simple distraction.
Wow, I've played a lot of games over the years. Still, I find that when I lose the magic it's often not the game. (Well, except for 3.0 and 4th ed, but that's another story all together. Some aspects of 3.5, 3.0 and Pathfinder lead to an arms race mentality where you have to make the absolute best. But that's neither here nor there.)
A gaming group is a social contract, a relationship. Simply choose to change the rules of that to keep things fresh.
I recommend moving to a more rules-light system. Possibly with something other than dice.
The lightness or heaviness of the system is, at best, tangential to the real issue here, that of ennui. I got my start in freeform, perhaps the most rules-light system there is, yet I grew weary of that and moved on to much heavier games which also incorporated richer roleplay than ever. That was a shift from crunchless to high crunch, and it was good.
Do anything too repetitively and it will grow mundane, boring. I find core-only 3.5/Pathfinder highly restrictive and unplayably monotonous and boring, yet I've had spectacular and inspiring opportunities in both higher-crunch and lower-crunch games; I'm in an ongoing Blue Rose game (essentially a streamlined d20 variant) that's... well, it's really proven to mostly be freeform with the odd splash of spellcasting and I might have rolled a skill roll once, but it's a truly refreshing system and, more importantly, setting and storytelling style. On the reverse, I'm getting in on a MechWarrior and Burning Wheel game which I hope will be successful, which are about as far on the other end of the crunch spectrum as you can ask, yet both are proving every bit as refreshing as a change of pace.
It's not a matter of how much or little crunch is at work. Rather, it's a matter of inspiration, open-mindedness, passion, vision, and keeping things fresh. If you're always going to the same pool for inspiration, it will inevitably go dry. You either need to find new wells to draw from or refresh the well you draw from already. Be always open-minded, always alert for that which moves you and inspires you, and draw that into your roleplay. With sufficient vision, anything can be made spectacular, even in the most serious of games; I've integrated badass bacon trees into games before.
One of the big reasons I'm still playing 3.5/Pathfinder is the unique nature of my collection, which mostly consists of books left to me by friends who left the hobby (largely because I've long been the one in charge of tending and storing them), and thus I have a huge supply of books that I've never even opened, so when I feel ennui coming on, I just pick up a new book and let it inspire me. Like... *Looks at the pile.* I don't think I've ever opened the Complete Guide to Wererats. *Skims.* Wererat culture, wererat warfare... as one would expect, they're subversive, sneaky types... disease warfare? Fun... How to emote like a wererat... Oh~ There's a feat to turn a wererat into a geneticist from Hell... A dragon rat? That is absurdly awesome. Wererat classes, wererat items... I can think of a great many interesting ways to use this material, both in making a PC and as a GM.
One of the toys I'm playing with now (aside from Secrets of Pact Magic <3) is the Complete Guide to Fey. I've long been fond of fey, but I've never really been able to gather the tools to incorporate them into my games satisfactorily (whether as a player or GM). Until I finally opened up the Complete Guide to Fey. It's a spectacular collection of fluff and tools (even though some of the tools are ridiculously broken) that I've found very powerful and inspiring.
Also, just yesterday, I heard the least manly sentence ever uttered in the history of humanity, one that had me laughing out loud for a full minute, "I'm afraid of Princess Tutu." (Note: Princess Tutu's a ballet-heavy tragic fairy tale type magical girl anime; it's really quite good, and I highly recommend it, even to guys.)
Yet, when I combine that line that was powerful enough to move me so (even if it moved me to laughter), I can take that notion and combine it with the tools in the Complete Guide to Fey to make an ancient, nigh nihilistic horror of a fey. Beautiful, serene, destructive and full of potential. I've yet to flesh it out, but so long as I keep my vision and passion to the fore, I can produce something that I am emotionally invested that is not only not diminished by my high-crunch delving and shaping, but is actually enriched by it. And that's a large part of the key; to find your passion, and then use whatever rules or conventions you're using no matter how light or how heavy in order to help that passion bear fruit that you can then bring into the game.
And playing different games can definitely help. I've blatantly ripped elements from both Burning Wheel and Exalted for my 3.5/PF games, and I'm still on the lookout for sufficiently compatible d20 mecha rules for my golemnist gnomes. Though worst case I can just revamp some of the symbiotic critters/templates floating around.
It happens too... mine is more about ruleslawyering though.. when the "power" leaves the hand of the DM the game becomes kinda lame to me...
What are you talking about? When the power leaves the hands of the GM and the natural flow of events take on a life of their own, spinning out of control to a grand and spectacular climax, why that's when the game is at its most interesting!
Try running a game with no rules and no rolls. Just a description of the characters, and what the DM thinks is reasonable to happen when a character of that level tries something.
Or try something with no rules, no rolls, no levels, and no DM. Just the good sense of everyone involved.
Though ultimately, it boils down to, "Mix things up." Strictly keeping that to the "tone it down" half of "mix things up" is half off-point.
Yeah, I think I have to agree here that getting into the rules isn't the cause of the detached feelings.
Because honestly, I'm more into the rules of the game then I've ever been, but when I sit down and create NPCs or characters, I still feel "the magic" of making a character and imagining their background and potential.
About the only time I get a little blase about character creation is when I'm making faceless NPCs that are basically just stat blocks that need to be filled in order to provide numbers for the encounter.
I still try and make things a little unique though. Think through how a military force would outfit their standard soldier (what equipment they issue, potions, would captains have extra magical equipment to protect them and signify their position like a badge that offers protection from magic missiles or something).
I think perhaps it's more a case of burning out (playing too much in too short a time), that could be the underlying cause here, though I'm not going to pretend that I know enough about anyone else's situation to make a defined call on this.
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Having recently discovered Pathfinder and being tempted back to gaming after a long (really long)time away, I've been thinking lately about the nature of fantasy, RPGs, and escapism, and I think the answer to the question "Is the magic gone?" will always come down to story.
If the mechanics of the game become more important than the more ethereal logic of storytelling, the magic will be gone, if it was ever there in the first place. Now there is nothing wrong with table-top, miniature war-gaming with a plot, which can be a lot of fun, but good luck finding the magic in that.
If you're looking for magic, you're going to have to find a DM/GM more interested in story than he/she is interested in managing player's instant gratification. Because it's this need for instant gratification(and the commodification of magic that follows) that levels and grids the imaginary world and sucks the magic right out of it.
It might come down to whether the system is an end in itself or if it is the means to an end that provides the base support for creative people to fashion worlds in which they can tell a meaningful story. Both are valid entertainments, but the magic is in the latter.
What are you talking about? When the power leaves the hands of the GM and the natural flow of events take on a life of their own, spinning out of control to a grand and spectacular climax, why that's when the game is at its most interesting!
What I meant with that is, when people (me included) second guesses everything the DM says. So, there is a power shift, even in your mind, and when you don't trust the DM anymore, it simply sucks.
I've felt this way sometimes, and it's always been burnout more than any sort of grand "growing up" or something. (I think I'm immune to growing up.)
Taking a break from playing, changing campaign settings, changing DMs, going from player to GM, going from GM to player, changing systems... all these things have helped get past this frustration.
If you can find friends who are willing to do it, play some "Spirit of the Century" -- that'll get you out of a rules-bound funk dang quick. Being good at that game requires being good at story telling and having a sense of drama, not memorizing ruleblocks.
I liked to sit around and make character after character just to make them, even if they'd never actually get played. I didn't know a lot about rules and didn't bother learning more than I needed to know to play the game on a basic level. I never worried about how powerful my character was... I played a given concept because I thought it sounded neat.
My teen and preteen kids do this now, and do have that wondrous feeling, so I think it has more to do with age and exposure to something really cool for the first time.
That said, Tuesday night is game night and it is still my favorite night of the week (edging out Steelers games). The magic has never really died for me. But then my wife frequently tells me that I'm just an overgrown kid in many ways.
I find a change of GM and a change in setting really help. 3.5 often gets into a very typical game with any 1 GM I find (different GMs have different typical styles, but each favors 1). Switching it up so that you are playing something completely different so the style changes helps.
I liked to sit around and make character after character just to make them, even if they'd never actually get played. I didn't know a lot about rules and didn't bother learning more than I needed to know to play the game on a basic level. I never worried about how powerful my character was... I played a given concept because I thought it sounded neat.My teen and preteen kids do this now, and do have that wondrous feeling, so I think it has more to do with age and exposure to something really cool for the first time.
That said, Tuesday night is game night and it is still my favorite night of the week (edging out Steelers games). The magic has never really died for me. But then my wife frequently tells me that I'm just an overgrown kid in many ways.
I think you are right about age. When we were kids there was magic in lots of things. We always become a little more cynical as we become older and gain experience with something.
But for me at least, recapturing some of that is why i play this game. Because it is that, playing. I think as adults we dont play enough, use our imagination, and I think it is a very mentally healthy thing to do.
But that is an interesting question. I dont know if i could decide between our gaming nights and our Giants games. Thats a tough one. Though we often combine the two (gaming before or after the football game).
Am I outgrowing them, or is it that because I immerse myself in the rules so much in any system I play in, I've become detached from the very thing I fell in love with about RPGs in the first place? I just don't get -excited- about games in the same way I did when I was younger. Has this happened to anyone else? If so, why do you think it happens?
To me it sounds like you used D&D for escapism when you were younger. Perhaps you don't need that in your life now.
It's really hard for us, as people who don't know you, to identify why you liked RPGs so much in the first place.
I know what drives me.
#1: Hanging out with friends;
#2: The leveling experience (which has been kicked out of me by WoW);
#3: The story and funny things that happen in game.
For me, part of the "magic" in the game leaves when I'm not with friends and part of the "magic" of the game left after I played WoW for 3 years. Part of the "magic" also leaves when the story and/or player dialogue is boring. Mundane dungeon crawls with strangers holds very little appeal for me.
DnD is funny because it straddles the line between a tactical sim and improv. er..3X, that is, straddles the line - 4e, I consider to be a tactical sim.
Anyway, if you enjoyed the game for improv, then I suggest you do real improv for awhile. Your local rec center probably has a class on it.
If that excites you again, you might find a renewed interest in 3X. If it doesn't, then your interests may have just changed away from DnD.
I've spent years not playing the game. For me, it was due to real life interfering, but maybe you just need a break.
If you like improv, consider LARPing. Its kinda like improv but adds some structure to it and you are doing it for yourself and not any audience.
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I ran in to this problem with my last gaming group and the solution I found was making a campaign world from scratch. I stopped worrying about game mechanics and got back to the creative roots that made me love rpgs. That seemed to help me get "the magic" back but time went on and my gaming group split up. Now, after a few years, I've found a new group and I'm running a character and it's fun again. But in my free time I'm knocking around a few ideas for characters and adventures. I'll stop rambling now.
Thanks for the replies, everyone. I feel I should clarify a few things, though. It's not a question of getting burnt out. I still enjoy playing RPGs... I just don't enjoy them in the same way I did when I was young and naive and I wonder if there's a way to feel that way again, because there really was -magic- back then. What I also wonder is whether those of an optimization bent on these boards may feel the same way about the difference between when they first played and how the game makes them feel now.
To me, overemphasizing the mathematics and optimization of the d20 system is what is killing it, when one person wants to play a concept character, and another wants to play a super optimized min-max monster character, it becomes progressively difficult to challenge the party without slaughtering the non-optimized character.
It can happen with most any system, I always let my players in my face to face game know, if you can do it, so can the DM. Worst problem I had once was the Goliath Barbarian with the Monkey Grip Great Axes in 3.5...
It's funny because of my dislike of optimized characters, I tend to go with balanced characters, but during the Beta Playtest, I came up with a 20th level dwarf fighter that had the most insane AC ever... Aye GRUMBLE GROG!!
For me a lot of the remaining magic comes with introducing the game/hobby to new people, and thus seeing the wonder through their eyes. I'm doing that with my kids now, and it's a blast seeing them get into it. If you have kids yourself that are old enough to play (I generally recommend at least 10, and preferably 12, but I'm pretty protective) go for it. If not, maybe you want to seek out some younger players for your game, if you can do so without coming across as the creepy old guy. Or just seek a group that has enthusiastic players who fit your playstyle. Sounds like some of your problem is with power creep and super-optimization, and I agree with you that it has become more prevalent. I'm also not a big fan of it, but my group generally doesn't go that route, and I know there are a lot of groups out there who play more "old school".
To me, overemphasizing the mathematics and optimization of the d20 system is what is killing it, when one person wants to play a concept character, and another wants to play a super optimized min-max monster character, it becomes progressively difficult to challenge the party without slaughtering the non-optimized character.
And the guy who comes to the table and announces, "My character can only work as a Commoner2/Sorcerer2/Ranger2," is not a problem for wanting to run an RP concept character while the guy who brings a fully-functional Druid gets written off as a caricature of the minmaxmunchkinpowergamer for playing the game? Pshaw.
You frame it as so one-sided. So-called "concept characters" can be more difficult to make work. You do not defend the concept by blaming everyone who actually plays the game everyone agreed to play for making monsters. You actually take up the challenge of making the concept character serviceable. To decree that there is one and only one way to represent the character (a completely ineffectual way) is ignorant, stubborn, and poisonous to the game, a betrayal of the group, as there are a thousand ways to represent anything, and if you've agreed to come together with your friends to play a game, you have a responsibility to actually play that game or you shouldn't have agreed.
And on the other end, if someone is bringing a stack of numbers with no roleplay, the problem is not the stack of numbers, but the lack of roleplay. To blame the crunch for that is like saying Jack the Ripper ate toast and killed people, therefore toast is evil.
You don't need rules to roleplay. When incorporating rules, it is an attempt to expand the experience with an inherently fun game that simultaneously enhances roleplay. Playing the game to the fullest and using the game as a vessel to enhance roleplay is a good thing, and the very essence of what a roleplaying game is supposed to do. If you don't enjoy how a game affects the roleplay, if you find it too rigid or heavy, you don't get angry at the people who actually play it well; you play a lighter or more flexible game. Savage Worlds, GURPS Fantasy, Blue Rose/True20, Mutants and Masterminds (which actually works quite well for fantasy). Pick your poison. The healthiest thing a gamer can do is try many, many different systems.
But the game is not the enemy of the magic; it's one tool by which you can channel that magic. Treating the game like the enemy is like saying power tools are the enemy of the art of carpentry; utter rubbish.
It's just utterly absurd to me that a community of folks who choose to add a system of rules to their roleplay- a system that is strictly unnecessary in order to roleplay- would be so swift to declare that very system that they choose to add as The Enemy.
Thanks for the replies, everyone. I feel I should clarify a few things, though. It's not a question of getting burnt out. I still enjoy playing RPGs... I just don't enjoy them in the same way I did when I was young and naive and I wonder if there's a way to feel that way again, because there really was -magic- back then. What I also wonder is whether those of an optimization bent on these boards may feel the same way about the difference between when they first played and how the game makes them feel now.The magic you describe comes from mystery. After years of playing, we've seen it/heard it/played it/run it a million times. There's no mystery. For the most part we know what's around the next corner. It's why I dislike campaign settings and expanded splat books and so forth. Everyone knows what's in the world.
Try starting up a game where it's completely new and unique with a new and unique setting. You'll flashback to the feelings of magic very quickly I think. :) The players in a game should know as little as possible about the world they're in IMHO so you retain the newness, the desire to explore, the mystery...
I find the a problem when players no nothing of the world. They grew up in the world and as adults they go adventuring. Think of how well you know the place you grew up in. Players should know that but it's hard to do that.
My solution though is for what ever reason I fling them into the unknown. Accidental teleporter, shipwrecked on unknown coast, abducted by slavers, or some other story as to why they are where they have no knowledge of the setting.
What is nice though with PF is the companion series. I like giving those to my players so they know the area from the companion point of view.
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You don't need rules to roleplay. When incorporating rules, it is an attempt to expand the experience with an inherently fun game that simultaneously enhances roleplay. Playing the game to the fullest and using the game as a vessel to enhance roleplay is a good thing, and the very essence of what a roleplaying game is supposed to do. If you don't enjoy how a game affects the roleplay, if you find...
RPGs are, by their very nature, a fusion of pure roleplaying and rules-driven simulation games. The balance struck in each RPG between these two elements is different, and I personally find it quite valid to express preferences for what you prefer along the spectrum. I think the PF/D&D system has definitely slid along the spectrum toward more rules-driven play in general over the years and editions, and I can certainly understand that some people aren't happy with that move. However, I also think the rule system, especially considering the still Holy Writ Rule Zero, is broad enough to accomodate pretty much everybody happily, although perhaps not at the same table.
What so many people at both ends of the spectrum object to is the implication that one group or the other is "playing the game better" than the other group. There are lots of players out there who can optimize, but can't roleplay to save their life. There are others who can't create a strong character to save their life, but are roleplaying gods. There are a few who do both very well, and of course a few who can't find their ass with both hands in a telephone booth in either area. They all get to play the game and have fun, which is the main point. Neither end of the the spectrum is inherently superior to the other. They just reflect stylistic choices of how people prefer to have fun.
So, express your opinions to your heart's content on how you think the game is most fun, and nice healthy debate will ensue. Declare that there is only one true and good way to play the game, and that all other ways are inherently inferior, and we'll have words.
It's not a question of getting burnt out. I still enjoy playing RPGs... I just don't enjoy them in the same way I did when I was young and naive and I wonder if there's a way to feel that way again, because there really was -magic- back then.
Nope, there isn't a way. It really is a combination of aging, experience, and lack of mystery.
You can never go home again.
Never have had a problem with a "lack of magic" in any campaign I have played in that had at least some decent story.
To me it isnt the game system you play in. It is how you play and who you play with. "The magic" to me comes when everyone at the table is acting out their characters and their character's mannerisms (amusingly something that Vin Diesel talked about regarding D&D).
If you have players and a GM who are as interested in the story of the characters (or more so) than getting optimal mechanical performance from their character or seeing how much loot they can gather I dont think the magic of gaming ever goes away. At least it never has for me in 30 years and almost as many systems.
But that is the sort of games i enjoy...where characters dont always do what their player's know is the smart thing to do.
-Weylin
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But that is the sort of games i enjoy...where characters dont always do what their player's know is the smart thing to do.
+1
One of the best quotes I've heard from a player was "It's a players job to do terribly stupid things just because they're awesome."
While doing stupid things is by itself just stupid, doing them to make interesting things happen is one of the better things you can do to spice up a game as a player. If this isn't enough and you have a good campaign idea, ask if the group would mind if you DM'd something.
I've also lately been playing with a group where (due to time constraints and infrequent meetings) whoever is DMing makes the characters ahead of time and the players just pick from a set. At first it seemed weird, but it actually works rather well as long as the DM doesn't apply *too* much flavor (ie, you can pick name, gender and most of the personality).
It's surprising how much flexibility a character sheet has even once it's completely filled out.
One of the best quotes I've heard from a player was "It's a players job to do terribly stupid things just because they're awesome."
While doing stupid things is by itself just stupid, doing them to make interesting things happen is one of the better things you can do to spice up a game as a player. If this isn't enough and you have a good campaign idea, ask if the group would mind if you DM'd something.
I've also lately been playing with a group where (due to time constraints and infrequent meetings) whoever is DMing makes the characters ahead of time and the players just pick from a set. At first it seemed weird, but it actually works rather well as long as the DM doesn't apply *too* much flavor (ie, you can pick name, gender and most of the personality).
It's surprising how much flexibility a character sheet has even once it's completely filled out.
This solidly illustrates my view that what is on the character sheet is not even 1/10th of a character. Two players can take the same exact stats but end up playing two very different characters.
Some of what I consider the finest moments of characters I have played was when they did something monumentally against their survival but was firmly in character as I had created them and played them. Even when it cost my character their life or left them maimed for life it was enjoyable to play it out.
My current character has the deck stacked against him according to some...a gnome oracle of wind with the lame flaw who uses a meteor hammer as a melee weapon and chakram for range (despite lacking the proficiency to use them). The weapon choice just fit the character's air theme to me. Concept and image trumps mechanical advantage to me.
-Weylin
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when I was in high school we played AD&D. The Players handbook was SMALL compared to today's books. We didn't use miniatures or detailed maps. We used our imaginations. If we imagined it, it was possible.
Then along come 3.x as a ruleset. If you imagine it, well, it may NOT be possible, and we need to look up the relevant rules to make sure everyone is playing fair. D&D got complex, the rules took center stage and became the focus of the game and not the characters or the story.
NOW, I am writing an adventure and a city location. I am working within the bounds of the rules, but trying very hard to capture that feel of anything is possible.
For me, in play, the story and the characters come first, and the rules are just a framework to keep it all together. Writing has brought back that sense of wonder and fun, maybe due to the challenge.
Hopefully, I will have both ready for next PaizoCon, that is the plan anyway...
I have found variety to be my cure-all for RPG ho-humness. Currently I'm running Council of Thieves for five people and a homebrew zombie apocalypse game borrowing CoC d20 rules for when someone doesn't show up. Every other month we switch our weekly game from my Pathfinder to a friend's GURPS supers game. Not only is that a change of pace but I get to play instead of run, which contributes quite a bit to keeping it fresh for me. There's also the on-hiatus Shadowrun game and I think two other people are in line to run Pathfinder APs when CoT is complete. (Halfway through module 3 now. And although the party is mostly evil {except the half-orc paladin of Sarenrae} it took a haunt to cause in-party fighting. I still don't know if the rogue is going to forgive the possessed inquisitor for taking a swing at him. I'd kind of like to do a near-future WW3 game with a lot of bio/cyberengineering, huge battles, and no magic - but I don't know which system to use. (Probably GURPS)
So yeah. Variety, it's the spice of life.
Sorry for rambling, it's very late and I'm loopy from painkillers.
Hmm, for me the Magic is Going strong and well in an old group still getting together since the late 80s! Then, the Magic bit the big one with a younger group of number crunchers.
The Old Grognards are Roleplayers first and the Young Guns are Rollplayers. I've actually semi converted the Young Guns into a Table Top Simulation / RPG and since then, the Magic for that game came back as that group goes 'Koo koo for Cocoa Puffs' over it!
I guess the Magic for me is at the end of the Game, as I'm packing up my kit, everyone from either game is chatting excitedly about 'when this went down' and 'I thought you were a goner then'.
So newp, magic is alive and well. You just have to make sure you don't miss it in all it's guises as it rolls (or roles in some cases) around out there!
Have Fun out there!!
~ W~
Some of the magic for me is when at the end of our session my groups looks at the clock and 8 hours have gone by, it's 3 in the morning and we are all wanting to keep going even though we are dog tired, the GM says "...and that's where I'm calling it." and suddenly the fact that it is 3 in the morning catches up with us all and we start shutting down.
When the game is going well we forget about what time it is, we forget that we woke up at 8am, even when we play for 8 hours it never seems we played for long enough, and we are chomping at the bit to play again and trying to figure out what bribe to offer the GM to run the next night.
Part of it also is creating a character. Not the numbers on the sheet, but his history, who his friends are, what his childhood was like, who trained him, who was his first love (has he even had one). Typically in my group a character has another 3-4 pages of write-up beyond the character sheet. Some have more, especially from one of the players in my group.
-Weylin
The Old Grognards are Roleplayers first and the Young Guns are Rollplayers. I've actually semi converted the Young Guns into a Table Top Simulation / RPG and since then, the Magic for that game came back as that group goes 'Koo koo for Cocoa Puffs' over it!
Okay, that just went way beyond bull into the realm of the plain insulting.
I think he was reffering to his specific group and not to gamers at large.The Old Grognards are Roleplayers first and the Young Guns are Rollplayers. I've actually semi converted the Young Guns into a Table Top Simulation / RPG and since then, the Magic for that game came back as that group goes 'Koo koo for Cocoa Puffs' over it!Okay, that just went way beyond bull into the realm of the plain insulting.
Yes, my younger group of players... not younger gamers in general. Sorry for the confusion!!
Have Fun out there!!
~ W ~
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Shameless Self Love:
...it's part of my 'RPG's to Teach English' madness.
They love it! ..and the story is relatively simple and linear.
The system is very simple - everyone has 3 health levels, hands on the desk represnt on-going actions, hand in the air for speaking/asking questions etc..
...and instead of dice I either 'Pick A Hand' where the hand with the red pen equates to failure and 'Pick A Number' where I cycle throught he pens behind my back and they hope the last one isn't a red pen.
Epic!
So aye, any 'youngling gamers are rules lawyers' claims are nothing more than madness.
However, it's important to note that they do get very vocal if they feel that something is 'unfair' - not in game but how the game is run.
>.>
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Actually On Topic
..as far as the losing the magic goes -- personally I believe it tends to be a case of oversaturation or desensitisation.
Take a break, find something else to do, try some board games, try other systems etc etc etc -- it's like anything: too much can kill you!
Fer real O-o!
Personally I'd guess that the more we understand a rule system the less magical it becomes -- we're seeing how the tricks are done, the smoke and mirrors, the cogs in the magical machine.
So, how to reclaim ignorance? Personally I advise copious amounts of beer/whisky at the gaming table.
..that and encouraging the 'If you insist on continously buggering up the game with your faffing around George we get to keep thumping you.' rule...
What's working for me at the moment:
Thanks for the replies, everyone. I feel I should clarify a few things, though. It's not a question of getting burnt out. I still enjoy playing RPGs... I just don't enjoy them in the same way I did when I was young and naive and I wonder if there's a way to feel that way again, because there really was -magic- back then. What I also wonder is whether those of an optimization bent on these boards may feel the same way about the difference between when they first played and how the game makes them feel now.
The best analogy that comes to mind is driving. When I first got my licence, I would look for any excuse to drive. Loved it.
Now that I'm older, the shine has worn off. I still like driving as it happens, but not with the enthusiasm I had when I first began.
When I was 10 years old I could roleplay all day every day and be happy with that. Now, nearly 30 years later, if I roleplay for a few hours once per week I'm good with that.
However, if I go a few weeks without roleplaying, I still miss it. :)
Some people suggested changing systems or genres can help, and I agree. Our group is doing some non-pathfinder roleplaying right now (Deadlands, Dark Heresy, In Nomine) and it's great to change things up.
For those who blame optimization: Yeah, I KNEW this thread would go there soon as I read the OP. Sigh.