In a recent encounter I was hosting for my friends, the party paladin was dealing some serious damage to an enemy dragon with his magical sword. Backed into a corner from the wizard's battlefield control spells and keenly aware that the sword was allowing the paladin to overcome his DR and other ongoing magical protections, the dragon used his vital strike feats and sunder to snap it in half with its powerful jaws--thereby gaining the upper hand against the paladin until the other party members could intervene to save him.
The paladin player was, needless to say, seriously upset to have lost such a powerful tool.
Was I wrong to have done so? Am I not supposed to play ancient dragons as the intelligent beings that they are?
(I suppose I can make it up to him with the dragon's treasure hoard that it was forced to abandon.)
Yes.
He'll get a new sword. It always bothered me that characters build collections of magic weapons. Getting rid of the previous weapon paves the way for an upgrade.
If it really bothers him, make a side-quest to reforge the sword and have it be stronger when it is restored. It will be an event. Besides at least a dragon did it. Could you imagine the reaction if a goblin had done it?
Yes.
Perhaps you would care to elaborate?
No you did right. Dragons are not dumb, never play em as such. Sunder is a fair tactic.
I am kinda in the agreement with my players not to use sunder, though in the case of a dragon you might. He might have a nice shiny sword to replace it in the dragon's hoard afterall.
Generally I find it is a mean trick to pull on your players though, nobody really likes to lose magical items even more so if they are relatively rare and have that special / unique flair.
Sundering is neither "made only for DM's" and cruel. If anything it's only an inconvenience to the player being sundered, and is easily reversible.
The second level Cleric/Sorc/Wizard spell Make Whole both fixes a sundered object, and fully restores all magical properties of it. The only caveat is you must be twice the level of the item to fix it.
Sunder builds are fun and the only reason I don't sunder more often as a player is because it's usually hard to pull off in the right circumstances, often taking another tactic is easier. Facing off against a tribe of stone giants in large sized armor wielding large sized Earth Breakers? Sunder the hell out of their weapons first to reduce their damage potential, then sunder their armor to make them easier to hit. A monk could pull this off in one or two rounds on a group of them with flurry. The weapons and armor are useless to you anyways to sell.
In any case, using sunder as a DM, i think it's more than fair. If an opponent knows they're getting their butt handed to them by a weapon, or can't seem to punch past that gleaming breastplate, it's only logical and reasonable to try to destroy your foes advantages when you're in a fight to the death. It also will keep characters balanced, and make them invest in themselves and not solely their weapon. A PC is not an uber weapon with a guy who carries it around, it's a hero with his own talents who shouldn't rely on a single meal ticket item.
How hard is it to repair a magical item in Pathfinder? o_O
Or rather, how hard is it to repair magical items in your campagin?
If it it's not insanely hard/impossible - Sunder Free!
...if anyone is relying soley on one magical item then.. ..personally, if the situation arose where it was feasible and not utterly contrived I'd break that damned crutch, player or NPC regardless -.o!
Sundering is neither "made only for DM's" and cruel. If anything it's only an inconvenience to the player being sundered, and is easily reversible.
The second level Cleric/Sorc/Wizard spell Make Whole both fixes a sundered object, and fully restores all magical properties of it. The only caveat is you must be twice the level of the item to fix it.
That's a really really really big caveat. Really big.
How hard is it to repair a magical item in Pathfinder? o_O
Let me tell you how hard.
In an ordinary game where PCs have standard gear appropriate to the Wealth-by-Level guidelines in the book, nobody can ever use the Make Whole spell to fix their armor or weapons.
Why?
Because of that really really really big caveat.
RavingDork didn't say how powerful that paladin's sword was, so let's make a few assumptions:
1. It's not a +1 sword. People who are high enough level to fight dragons that have DR (e.g. a CR 13 Red dragon) are not carrying puny little +1 weapons.
2. It's probably not +2. It's definitely not +2 if we're following the Wealth-by-Level expectations.
3. It might be +3. For now, let's assume that it is, even though +3 is awfully weak for a paladin high enough level to fight CR13 dragons.
So, given that this is a +3 sword, it requires a crafter to be 9th level to make the sword, per the RAW on crafting magic weapons. Which means it requires an 18th level cleric or wizard to cast Make Whole on it.
Nobody in this group is 18th level (or they would not be fighting puny CR13 dragons using puny +3 swords). Therefore nobody in this group can repair even a wee little +3 magic sword using Make Whole.
Now, if that was a higher level paladin, he might have a +4 sword. In which case, the CL to make it is 12 and the CL to repair it with Make Whole is 24. Only epic level clerics and wizards can cast Make Whole on a +4 sword. And if they had epic level casters in this group, then that paladin was probably also epic level, and even his toothbrush is +4, so you can bet his dragonslaying sword is way better than +4.
And they have to be even more epic to repair a +5 sword.
See the problem?
It' even applies to a +2 weapon which requires a 12th level caster to fix it with Make Whole. If this paladin were traveling with 12th level casters, then he would be around 12th level himself, and he would have upgraded to at least +3, or maybe +4, long ago.
(unless this is one of those low-magic games, in which case, the above may not apply, but I did preface it by referencing the RAW WBL expectations).
Now, as for repairing it with a forge and hammer, there is no RAW for this. Even if the object is merely Broken (less than half HP but still has at least 1 HP, which means it can be used with penalties, so the Paladin could continue fighting with his broken sword), the RAW says that Make Whole is the only way to fix it, and as we've seen, that's really not an option.
The absolute best the raw provides is that someone could use a normal Craft Weapons skill to fix the masterwork sword using the materials at hand (no cost for materials). Once the masterwork weapon is restored, somone needs to invest the time and money to enchant it all over again, from scratch. The only benefit to this is that it's a little cheaper since the paladin doesn't have to buy a masterwork sword.
So, to answer Mr. Facist, it's very hard to repair broken armor and weapons, or really almost any valuable broken magic item.
I am kinda in the agreement with my players not to use sunder, though in the case of a dragon you might. He might have a nice shiny sword to replace it in the dragon's hoard afterall.
Generally I find it is a mean trick to pull on your players though, nobody really likes to lose magical items even more so if they are relatively rare and have that special / unique flair.
Seems fair to me, the game has become far too reliant on magic weapons anyway. Maybe next time he'll get an adamantine weapon instead.
Now, as for repairing it with a forge and hammer, there is no RAW for this. Even if the object is merely Broken (less than half HP but still has at least 1 HP, which means it can be used with penalties, so the Paladin could continue fighting with his broken sword), the RAW says that Make Whole is the only way to fix it, and as we've seen, that's really not an option.
Just to point out, this is not completely true. But IT IS expensive...
PRD -> Magic Items -> Repair Magic Items:
"Repairing a magic item requires material components equal to half the cost to create the item, and requires half the time. The make whole spell can also repair a damaged (or even a destroyed) magic items—if the caster is high enough level."
However, the rules are not crystal clear if the process of repairing a magic item without the Make Whole spell is allowed only for Damaged Magic Items or also for Destroyed Magic Items.
But I agree, the Make Whole spell is useful at best for +2 weapons (and in general, magic items with a Caster Level no more higher than 6th-7th) ...
Now, as for repairing it with a forge and hammer, there is no RAW for this. Even if the object is merely Broken (less than half HP but still has at least 1 HP, which means it can be used with penalties, so the Paladin could continue fighting with his broken sword), the RAW says that Make Whole is the only way to fix it, and as we've seen, that's really not an option.Just to point out, this is not completely true. But IT IS expensive...
PRD -> Magic Items -> Repair Magic Items:
"Repairing a magic item requires material components equal to half the cost to create the item, and requires half the time. The make whole spell can also repair a damaged (or even a destroyed) magic items—if the caster is high enough level."However, the rules are not crystal clear if the process of repairing a magic item without the Make Whole spell is allowed only for Damaged Magic Items or also for Destroyed Magic Items.
But I agree, the Make Whole spell is useful at best for +2 weapons (and in general, magic items with a Caster Level no more higher than 6th-7th) ...
I would not allow make whole to fix broken magical items, seems like an emergency patch for the sunder rules to me..
I am playing a fairly low magic campaign and don't use the sunder feat though.
(...)the dragon used his vital strike feats and sunder to snap it in half with its powerful jaws--thereby gaining the upper hand against the paladin until the other party members could intervene to save him.
Out of curiosity, how could the Dragon sunder the Paladin's Magic Weapon ? What was the enhancement bonus of the weapon itself?
I know that I decided to house-rule the official rule (I do not like it AT ALL), but this is the RAW for Magic Weapons and Sunder:
PRD -> Magic Items -> Weapons:
"Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck."
Now, a Dragon has DR X/magic at best, and so it could (at best) Sunder only a weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus.
As I said, this is a rule I personally decided to ignore (and I strongly suspect it is a legacy from the 3.5 SRD which was never subjected to an errata like the Official D&D 3.5 rules, which removed that rule after a while). However, by RAW, a Dragon CANNOT Sunder a +2 (or better) Weapon. But it CAN Sunder any other Magic item (except those that are also +2 or better weapons, like a Staff of Power or a weapon-changed Rod of Lordly Might - EXCEPT when the Rod is weapon-changed into +1 Flaming Longsword form, since the enhancement bonus is only +1)...
EDIT: the rule on sundering magic weapons only with a weapon with an equivalent or higher enhancement bonus also makes totally useless the Sunder feat for Giants - unless they wield Magic Weapons, too. This is another reason why I do not follow the RAW on this...
I think you made a good call there.
If the dragon notices the magical sword and not in sé the paladin dealing that painful damage, then I guess it's only a just reaction he should destroy the sword, hence rendering the annoying paladin more vulnerable to defeat.
I'm not suggesting sundering all the party's weapons (that would plainly suck and make them totally helpless) but in the case you explained I assume the paladin would have a spare weapon (probably a spare magical sword) to fall back on (not literally).
Congrats on making hard choises, it's not always easy. And dragons are touch buggers after all. Careful not to play then down too much just not to upset the players.
Keep in mind that a magical weapon can only be sundered by another magical weapon with an equal or greater enhancement bonus. Not total magic bonus, but enhancement.
So if equal money is invested in two separate swords, one making it a +1 flaming sword, the second a +2 sword, the +2 sword has a much less risk of being sundered as not just any magical sword can do it now. Which means at appropriate level/wealth ratio, most encounters you fight against are probably going to split their magical bonuses on their weapons up between enhancement and other things and thus no longer be a threat.
Once we get into high levels and everyone's walking around with +5 enhanced weapons, and on the off chance you fight someone else with a +5 enhanced weapon, and on the off chance he decides to sunder you before you sunder him, AND if he succeeds, well, too bad. It's a pretty rare circumstance to begin with, and you just had bad luck. On the plus side, if you still win the fight, chances are you now have a new +5 weapon to replace the one that was just sundered, or it could be sold to repair your old one.
If you didn't survive that fight, well, you don't need your sundered weapon now anyways.
Moral of the story: If you're THAT worried about your weapon being sundered and don't like the idea of a backup weapon that isn't as SUPER UBER AWESOME as your main weapon, add +enhancement bonuses to it first before adding the other magical buffs.
I still don't see what the big deal is. Magic weapons don't make your character, and they're not the be-all-end-all. It's just equipment, not the character.
Sundering players' toys?
Should be done, as long as it isn't overdone.
The encounter described above sounds like a good time to do it, but if it happened in every other fight, I'd get angry myself, if I were the player.
As for whether a dragon can sunder a +2 (or greater) weapon, I think they should be able to. Remember, each +1 adds to hardness and HP, so it will be more difficult, but shouldn't be impossible.
Also, as for forging it, why not make a quest out of reforging the blade.
I seem to recall a certain sword, Narsil, that was broken and not reforged until about 3000 years later, when it was again needed (and this took the best craftsmen/spellcasters of the age to accomplish).
Great stuff for a new adventure:
"This Weapon was forged in the deeps of Kor'mahor, the old Dwarven City. Long time ago abandonend...Maybe someone survives deep below and know how to reforge the broken sword."
Lore & Story >> Rules. :)
P.S.:
Remembers me, how we got our first magic wepaons. We encountered a long forgotten dwarven City, overrun by undeads. After fighting the undeads, e managed to free the imprisoned dwarven souls.
As a gift they ignite the forges a last time and enchanted our weapons, each with a character them fitting ability.
The cleric got a intelligent, disruptive mace +1. At level 14 he still use it, because of how he get it.
Now, as for repairing it with a forge and hammer, there is no RAW for this. Even if the object is merely Broken (less than half HP but still has at least 1 HP, which means it can be used with penalties, so the Paladin could continue fighting with his broken sword), the RAW says that Make Whole is the only way to fix it, and as we've seen, that's really not an option.Just to point out, this is not completely true. But IT IS expensive...
PRD -> Magic Items -> Repair Magic Items:
"Repairing a magic item requires material components equal to half the cost to create the item, and requires half the time. The make whole spell can also repair a damaged (or even a destroyed) magic items—if the caster is high enough level."However, the rules are not crystal clear if the process of repairing a magic item without the Make Whole spell is allowed only for Damaged Magic Items or also for Destroyed Magic Items.
But I agree, the Make Whole spell is useful at best for +2 weapons (and in general, magic items with a Caster Level no more higher than 6th-7th) ...
I would not allow make whole to fix broken magical items, seems like an emergency patch for the sunder rules to me..
I am playing a fairly low magic campaign and don't use the sunder feat though.
Hmm so, if you want to repair the item you can either:
Spend half the time used to make it (tricky for any non-caster/feated character) and burn half the gold/cost..
or..
Hope you have a high (insanely high at higher levels) caster running around who's willing to spare time from their plane-spanning power quests?
Hmm..
*rummages*
Repairing a magic item requires material components equal to half the cost to create the item, and requires half the time. The make whole spell can also repair a damaged (or even a destroyed) magic items—if the caster is high enough level.
Make whole can fix destroyed magic items (at 0 hit points or less), and restores the magic properties of the item if your caster level is at least twice that of the item.
Well, that former seems ok - annoying but, in a game where folks can make arrangements to be brought back from the dead, workable BUT the latter sucks worse than a jawless enterprising lady-of-loose-moral-virtue.
Specially for low magic campains, tho you could argue (loudly while shaking your fist etc) that a low magic campaign is, in itself, a living house rule campaign.
So aye, for a 'normal' campaign the first seems *ok*, but the caster req on Make Whole seems a little out of whack..
..unless there are some group cast/ritual-where-you-can-pool-caster-levels rules knocking around.
//
So by RAW -- Sunder is terrifying O_O
..and thank you DM_Blake for the heads up!
So by RAW -- Sunder is terrifying O_O
Well, as I said, by RAW Sunder is terrifying in a sense... that it cannot be possibly applied by monsters !
A simple +2 Weapon (please note, we are speaking of a weapon with an effective +2 Enhancement bonus, not a +1 Flaming Shocking Keen Holy Axiomatic Bane(Evil Outsider)) is sufficient (by RAW) to assure you invulnerability to your Magic Weapon against 90%+ of the creatures in the Bestiary (creatures excluded are those with DR X/Epic and with Magic weapons).
Sunder made by NPCs with Magic Weapons, now that's another entire different matter.
Try this next time:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering---final/combat---final#TOC-Disarm
The PC loses his weapon and it isn't destroyed.
Sunder is pretty much a feat made solely for the DM. PC's will never use the feat past the early levels because they don't want to smash their phat lootzzzz.
Ken, the rules say you get 'x loot' by 'y level' you should have that much GP value by the time you reach that level. So if you sunder a magic weapon, or peice of armour, the value of that loot should find it's way to you by other means. If a PC wants to do something other than hit it with a sword, for godsake don't punish them for it.
I would go with the dragon sundering the sword, sure.
Ravenot has it -- " A PC is not an uber weapon with a guy who carries it around, it's a hero with his own talents who shouldn't rely on a single meal ticket item."
That said, players are likely to get upset if you squish their toys. There better be some serious story pay-back like the suggestions above.
Sunder is a wonderful tactic to pull against the PCs, but unlike Trip or Disarm, should not be used all the time. Throw it at them occasionally, remembering that magical items can be repaired by a suitably skilled craftsman/men, if not the PCs themselves.
Sunder wands, scrolls, staves, weapons all manner of wonderful things. Again, don't go overboard throwing it at the PCs, but at the same point there are times when the PCs themselves will need access to Improved Sunder against certain enemies and/or situations, and there are items, that while 'shiney', are generally items PCs will want to be Destroyed. Lifestealer blades, Control Orbs for Undead Armies, Lich's Phylactery, so on and so forth.
Also, the Feat grants you a +2 save against such attacks yourself, which can be great if the PC becomes bat-shit paranoid about his precious getting the stuffing knocked out of it. Furthermore, a Melee Character with Great Cleave can sunder up to three times per attack, so long as they can reliably hit each 'target'. Meaning that a suitably talented Fighter, let's say 8th level, could make anywhere between 3-6 sunder attempts on three weapons. Following that example, the Fighter sunders the three spears being shoved at him by the Kobolds, and then can make another Great Cleave and strike at all three Goblins.
Improved Sunder has many wonderful benefits, and even if the PCs are leery of destroying 'Teh Shinehs', you can choose with a Sunder Attempt to leave the weapon with 1 hit-point left as per page 201 of the Core Rulebook. The item in question has the Broken status (See page 565/566 of the Core Rulebook for all the lovely things you do to enemies with this feat!) and is thus far less effective than normal, meaning that the PCs can then loot it, repair it and use it themselves.
I fondly recall a battle between the Party Barbarian and a Fighter villain, the two of them realised that fighting each other would simply tear each other to ribbons, so they both started trying to destroy each other's weapons first. Barbarian won by a gnat's hair, but his weapon was pretty banged up so he just tossed it over his shoulder and started beating the tar out of the Fighter with his bare hands. Most epic fight/victory we'd ever seen.
So by RAW -- Sunder is terrifying O_OWell, as I said, by RAW Sunder is terrifying in a sense... that it cannot be possibly applied by monsters !
A simple +2 Weapon (please note, we are speaking of a weapon with an effective +2 Enhancement bonus, not a +1 Flaming Shocking Keen Holy Axiomatic Bane(Evil Outsider)) is sufficient (by RAW) to assure you invulnerability to your Magic Weapon against 90%+ of the creatures in the Bestiary (creatures excluded are those with DR X/Epic and with Magic weapons).
Sunder made by NPCs with Magic Weapons, now that's another entire different matter.
The monsters could potentially have enchantments on them that allow them to achieve it. It is not so inconcivable that a dragon might tattoo enchantments into its tail, or etch them into its claws and teeth.
So by RAW -- Sunder is terrifying O_OSunder made by NPCs with Magic Weapons, now that's another entire different matter.
See, we run a human-centric campaign so that's pretty much the only folk who are going to be using Sunder o_o
Make Whole doesn't seem to be focused on mending broken magical things -- so perhaps a higher level spell focused on mending broken magical things would be an answer.
Come to think of it, they're a Paladin...
...get him to ask his god, nicley - he/she/it should already be in their dieties good books o-O!
[Paladin]: "Uhm ... Boss, I don't know how to say this, but ..."
[Paladin's God]: "Oh, Cain, how can I ... oh by ME, AGAIN!!!. Do you have any idea how many times I have had to repair that damn sword?"
[Paladin]: "Eh heh heh heh ... twelve times?"
[Paladin's God]: *facepalm* "Sod it. I'll pay for an Adamantite weapon myself!"
In a recent encounter I was hosting for my friends, the party paladin was dealing some serious damage to an enemy dragon with his magical sword. Backed into a corner from the wizard's battlefield control spells and keenly aware that the sword was allowing the paladin to overcome his DR and other ongoing magical protections, the dragon used his vital strike feats and sunder to snap it in half with its powerful jaws--thereby gaining the upper hand against the paladin until the other party members could intervene to save him.
The paladin player was, needless to say, seriously upset to have lost such a powerful tool.
Was I wrong to have done so? Am I not supposed to play ancient dragons as the intelligent beings that they are?
(I suppose I can make it up to him with the dragon's treasure hoard that it was forced to abandon.)
No. It is a valid tactic. If a player can do it, then a monster can do it. I probably would have went for a disarm. I try to limit sunders for the sake of fun, but they are not something I would not do.
In a recent encounter I was hosting for my friends, the party paladin was dealing some serious damage to an enemy dragon with his magical sword. Backed into a corner from the wizard's battlefield control spells and keenly aware that the sword was allowing the paladin to overcome his DR and other ongoing magical protections, the dragon used his vital strike feats and sunder to snap it in half with its powerful jaws--thereby gaining the upper hand against the paladin until the other party members could intervene to save him.
The paladin player was, needless to say, seriously upset to have lost such a powerful tool.
Was I wrong to have done so? Am I not supposed to play ancient dragons as the intelligent beings that they are?
(I suppose I can make it up to him with the dragon's treasure hoard that it was forced to abandon.)
Yes. He can use the cash from the giant's horde to get his sword fixed if he wants. Or get one made of adamantine ...
PRD -> Magic Items -> Weapons:
"Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck."
They brought this rule back again. I think Paizo needs to make a note of old rule revisions. I know this rule was in 3.0, but not in 3.5.
That's because 3.5 went to the DR/Magic (any) rules, vice DR/ +1, +2, Etc. But that's DR, which is different from Sundering.
In the OPs example, Sundering WAS mean.
AND AWESOME :)
It's a freakin DRAGON!!! this was probably THE capstone fight of the story arc, the epic throwdown that will decide the fate of a kingdom. Unless the Pally had something like Ancestral Weapon tying him to the shiny (and possibly even then), sunder the crap out of it :) Then, what do you know, the dragon's hoard contains and even MORE powerful replacement, or the King gives you Whispering Leaf, carried by his Seneschals for generations, or the tribe of Kobolds that had been under the dragons thumb offers to reforge your weapon with teh dragon's heart fire.....
In short, make it awesome, and the player will go along. If every orc they run into breaks their stuff at every opportunity, it gets old :P
Sundering is mean, no doubt about it. But and this is a big old butt, that does not mean you should never use it. The problem with sunder is its a lose/ lose for players and a win/ win for oponents. If you sunder as DM you aren't out anything, but if a player does he costs the party a potentially nice piece of equipment. Not only that Sundering as DM weakens the fighter types who rely on their weapon while the casters are immune.
What I recommend is that if you plan to sunder a weapon as important as a paladin's sword, you have plans in place to replace or repair it soon. Make it a plot point, allow the guy to shine as he quests to mend his broken sword...etc. If you dont do this you are really unfairly weakening one PC for at least the rest of that module if not long term if the weapon is hard to replace. In addition if the module is going to continue for a few more sessions, I really recommend that somewhere in that horde there be something the guy can use while he waits to get his sword fixed...it doesnt have to be as good a weapon, but it has to be good enough to make the guy be able to do his job for the next few sessions.
They brought this rule back again. I think Paizo needs to make a note of old rule revisions. I know this rule was in 3.0, but not in 3.5.
PRD -> Magic Items -> Weapons:
"Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck."
You are right... in a way. It was still present in the early days of 3.5, until an Errata of the DMG erased it for good.
Official D&D Updates
Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5:
"Hardness and Hit Points
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 222
Problem: The first paragraph is not consistent with similar information for shields on page 217.
Solution: Delete the first sentence after the boldface header. Change the next sentence to read as follows:
Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points."
Too bad WotC never cared to make an errata ALSO in the SRD, and so the rule slipped back... again (methinks).
Official 3.5 SRD - Magic Items II
"Hardness and Hit Points: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck. Each +1 of enhancement bonus also adds 1 to the weapon’s or shield’s hardness and hit points."
Not only that Sundering as DM weakens the fighter types who rely on their weapon while the casters are immune.
You can sunder spell component pouches and holy symbols.
They brought this rule back again. I think Paizo needs to make a note of old rule revisions. I know this rule was in 3.0, but not in 3.5.
PRD -> Magic Items -> Weapons:
"Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck."You are right... in a way. It was still present in the early days of 3.5, until an Errata of the DMG erased it for good.
** spoiler omitted **
Too bad WotC never cared to make an errata ALSO in the SRD, and so the rule slipped back... again (methinks).
** spoiler omitted **
The other SRD's found online were often more quickly and better updated than Wizard's was. I often used http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm instead.
edit:Now that I think about, there was a lot of copying and pasting for the pathfinder game. They probably copied from the Wizard's site, and it never got caught.
Sunder is perfectly legitimate in the situation described by the OP, with an intelligent boss monster who has determined that the sword is the source of his problems. Of course the player will hate losing his favorite toy, but unless it is a one of a kind irreplacable item or you're playing in a low-magic world, he'll have another magic sword soon. If you are a generous DM there could even be one in the dragon's hoard, maybe even a better one.
I don't think sunder should be overused by DMs, though. Every now and again by an intelligent foe with considerable combat skill, but definitely not more than once every few game sessions or your players will hate you.
Also, regarding the dragon not being able to sunder a weapon because it's claws and teeth aren't magic weapons, I would point out that a dragon by it's very nature is a magical creature. I would certainly rule that it's claws and teeth are equivalent to pretty significant magic weapons.
I guess sundering is akin to using rust monsters. Just make sure a replacement isn't too far and that it doesn't gimp your melee-type-guy for the next sessions.
I only used sunder once in the last encounter of my campaign. The PCs were fighting a bunch of burly dudes with battle axes and an alchemist that were defending an underground hydroponic drug compound.
The barbarian was ripping faces with his great axe and I managed to sunder it pretty easily in one hit(Shafted weapons really get shafted in this department). The problem is that the player didn't think about picking up a battleaxe from the defeated foes and tried to keep on going with his dagger...a critical acid bomb to the face and some bad tactics led to 2 PCs dead and the others running for their life.
So one needs to really consider the effect that sunder will have on the difficulty of the encounter.
Well ... since "make whole" was intended to be the "go to" spell, why not simply hand-wave away the level requirement to make it work?
However, include some fraction of the item repair cost as a balance or something.
So ... components = broken magic stuff + 1/4 of gp value of item's cost to create (preferrably in gems or something)?
Better yet - toss the gp/gems aside outright and LET THE SPELL WORK!!!
Seriously ... what's the point of a spell you CAN'T do a damn thing with?
You first gain 2nd level spells at 3rd level ... what the HELL kind of weapon are you going to be able to fix at that point? You can't even MAKE one yet ... so, what's the point of this spell, seriously?
Answer = to fix your magic crap when it breaks! So ... let it "fix" stuff and ignore the impediments to the spell that currently are written into it.
Honestly, the spell reads like a good idea that was countered in favor of not allowing something to "break" somehow. My contention - how the hell is it broken to require magic spells to "fix" broken equipment in the first place? You either WANT a spell and effect to fix broken magic stuff, or you want full on make a new one in play - not both, and certainly no rules that prevent the "fix" to take place at all. So .. yeah ... certainly a house rule I'll throw into my games from now on.
I'm not about taking away options from players, and I'm also not about screwing them over. Sunder can work on both ends (PC's and GM's), and so can the repair spells ... w/OUT screwing players over for having learned/invested in the spells in the first place, OR screwing them over the magic gear (theirs, or the enemies taken as spoils of war).
It is entirely appropriate for a dragon to sunder a weapon. They are on top of the food chain and should be dreaded and/or feared. You could play it via the paladins god not to rely on steel alone, as your faith will pull you through. Then have some type of quest to reflect and/or repent ... which may lead to a holy avenger or similar type weapon. There are so many opportunties to tie this back into the story line.
Well, a few comments:
A dragon is certainly more than smart enough to sunder - assuming he'd be able to (due to the whole needing to be "of stronger enchantment than the weapon" thing). That's just good tactics (which things with intelligences above 16 should have), and really, some degree of cost and loss makes the eventual win that much more epic...
At the same time, the Dragon likes the treasure, so I imagine that he'd not destroy the sword outright, but leave it at 1 hp and broken so *he* can fix it for his hoarde later (it's your choice when you sunder, whether or not to leave that last, solitary hp on the item).
If he did that, there's no need to worry - make whole fixes it since the 2 x level thing is for destroyed items, not broken ones:
Make whole can fix destroyed magic items (at 0 hit points or less), and restores the magic properties of the item if your caster level is at least twice that of the item
Emphasis mine, and I admit we play with a house rule that says that fixing something that's only broken (rather than destroyed) still needs equal caster level (however, you can repair hp on something that's not yet broken regardless of level).
However, if the dragon went all the way and the item is destroyed -- it can be make wholed, if it's of low power (+2) -- assuming you can find a 12th level caster, but there's usually one in any large city.
If the weapon is more powerful than that, say, mid-range (total enchantment up to +4 or +5), then I see no problems with it being repairable by Limited Wish.
Items more powerful than that, we're into wish, miracle, or custom quests -- which is how it should be, at least I think so. You want your sword with a total +7 due to its powers fixed? Take it back to where it was made and reforge it - the thing should be bloody epic, not something some mage with half a million gold and 3 months of free time whipped up just because he had nothing better to do.
Anyhow, in your specific case, if you really feel bad about it, give the pally a different but still nifty-keen sword from the dragon's hoarde.
Having said all of that, however -- one question: How would sundering *help* the dragon, exactly? A smiting paladin overcomes all DR in its target, so even if the paladin's reduced to his dagger, post-smite-nerf he's still hitting for d4+str+level per shot, and all of his damage roll still applies.
You can sunder spell component pouches and holy symbols.Not only that Sundering as DM weakens the fighter types who rely on their weapon while the casters are immune.
Yes but given that these are used at range it is very very less likely to happen.
Sundering players' toys?
Should be done, as long as it isn't overdone.
I was going to say the same thing, but you beat me to it. If sundering (or disarming and stealing) an item makes perfect sense in context, it should at least be considered!
But you should make sure that replacing or repairing a favourite item is a possibility.
....A number of excellent points....
Having said all of that, however -- one question: How would sundering *help* the dragon, exactly? A smiting paladin overcomes all DR in its target, so even if the paladin's reduced to his dagger, post-smite-nerf he's still hitting for d4+str+level per shot, and all of his damage roll still applies.
This is exactly why my paladin carries a warhammer and shield to back up his halberd of smiting doom. Sure, I miss out on the weapon bond goodness, but Smite works as well with a dagger as it does with a great axe. You get ALL the martial weapons for a reason :)
Sundering players' toys?
Should be done, as long as it isn't overdone.
I was going to say the same thing, but you beat me to it. If sundering (or disarming and stealing) an item makes perfect sense in context, it should at least be considered!
But you should make sure that replacing or repairing a favourite item is a possibility.
Yep, this. All options should be on the table for a super intelligent foe like a dragon. You don't think he amassed all that wealth and lived hundreds of years by letting adventurers walk in and fight him on their terms do you?
Yes but given that these are used at range it is very very less likely to happen.You can sunder spell component pouches and holy symbols.Not only that Sundering as DM weakens the fighter types who rely on their weapon while the casters are immune.
There is a ranged sunder feat in one of the 3.5 books, and even if you just use core pathfinder a DM can get to a character if he really wants too. Quickened teleport then sunder works.