Hi guys
I'm looking for a little advise, I'm playing running a group of 6 players through the kingmaker adventure path and 2 of them are ranged specialist (scout and ranger) and I want to know if anyone has any good advice on how to deal with ranged players. During fights they are always as far away from the battle as they can and while the rest of the group is taking the licks from the baddies they shoot comfortably from a distance. They also feel the instant anything even gets remotely close to them. Anyone have any encounter ideas that would negate the bows or bring the fight to them? They never worry during fights just arrows from 100+ft away and if it gets close run so that the other one can shot it and i would like to put a little fear into them.
I got one of them during the night watch with a worg once but now they insist on being on hose back during the night watch...
Hi guys
I'm looking for a little advise, I'm playing running a group of 6 players through the kingmaker adventure path and 2 of them are ranged specialist (scout and ranger) and I want to know if anyone has any good advice on how to deal with ranged players. During fights they are always as far away from the battle as they can and while the rest of the group is taking the licks from the baddies they shoot comfortably from a distance. They also feel the instant anything even gets remotely close to them. Anyone have any encounter ideas that would negate the bows or bring the fight to them? They never worry during fights just arrows from 100+ft away and if it gets close run so that the other one can shot it and i would like to put a little fear into them.
I got one of them during the night watch with a worg once but now they insist on being on hose back during the night watch...
Two words: Count arrows.
Hi guys
I'm looking for a little advise, I'm playing running a group of 6 players through the kingmaker adventure path and 2 of them are ranged specialist (scout and ranger) and I want to know if anyone has any good advice on how to deal with ranged players. During fights they are always as far away from the battle as they can and while the rest of the group is taking the licks from the baddies they shoot comfortably from a distance. They also feel the instant anything even gets remotely close to them. Anyone have any encounter ideas that would negate the bows or bring the fight to them? They never worry during fights just arrows from 100+ft away and if it gets close run so that the other one can shot it and i would like to put a little fear into them.
I got one of them during the night watch with a worg once but now they insist on being on hose back during the night watch...
Use terrain to make things small. A dense forest can mean that creatures more then a certain distance away have total cover. A narrow cave leading around a few turns to an open cavern means there is only so far away the archers can be and still see the target. And make sure if they are more then say 30 ft out, there is always going to be something between them and their target.
Also, use enemies that can shoot back on occasion, spell casters and archer baddies can fling death right back at them. Very mobile enemies can chase them down (flyers for instance). Or just high speed enemies like fast animals, or mounted enemies can just run them down.
Fog and smoke will help as well. If the entire battlefield is covered in the fog of war, the melee crew will find the enemy before the ranged contingent. Meanwhile, your opponents can use the fog to get close to the archers. Once in melee, your bad guys can try using sunder or disarm to deal with annoying PC archers.
Oh, and wind wall is your best friend.
Rocks!!
big ones!!
thrown by giants!!
Flankers- sure, the enemies Druid is wildshaped into a bear and facing down the tanks, but where is her Dinonychus pet, and 3 summoned wolves?
I don't know how that module is set up re: terrain, but I rarely have a game where someone can sit back 100' and still SEE the fight. As has been noted: "nope, too many trees, can't get a clear shot" is a perfectly valid DM response.
Walls, fogs, smoke, etc. Pyrotechnics works GREAT, and has the added benefit of maybe blinding someone.
Two words: Count arrows.
Two more words: Am-bush ;D
Seriously, many predatory animals are quite cunning and pack hunters in particular are pretty good at using flanking and ambush tactics. Lions, Hyena, Deinonychus, Terror Birds and others will hide and let prey pass them by then spring to attack, or attack from the front and when the guys in the rear flee, they flee into the ones "they didn't even know were there" to spring the trap. More intelligent foes will counter archers with other archers or spells like the Wall of series to isolate the archers from the rest of the group, area effect spells to blast the guys in the rear (of the party!!!).
Creatures with flight can also spoil a fleeing ranged attackers day.
The tight quarters of a dungeon will also negate this tactic somewhat.
If they were my players, their companions would call them out, challenging their manhood/heroism for fleeing at the first sign of an imperial cruiser.
Nertz! Ninja'd!
Skeletons and zombies will shave off a bit of the archers' damage output, but they'll be pretty easy for the melee characters to manage.
Two words: Count arrows.
Also don't forget soft cover from having your buddies standing in the way. (Not to mention hard cover from other stuff.)
Ranged foes. A few encounters where the majority of NPCs use similar tactics could be interesting. Especially if all/most combatants are mounted.
One other thing about watches on horseback: even trained warhorses don't take a lot of punishment. If they can't be spooked (and wolves would do well to spook horses, but you do have a ranger), horses make excellent targets for a bunch of stealthy types with lowlight vision. Getting your horse shot out from under you at night while on watch would be embarrassing, a good harassment tactic, yet not drop party resources tremendously on its own.
Come to think of it, a monster swarm or two might be fun.
Oh, and let's not forget protection from arrows. A simple 2nd-level spell could let someone get really close to the archers with minimal harm. And so could the old standby, invisibility.
The 2 archers are using smart tactics if they're covering one another and staying away from anyone deadly, just as archers should.
Kill the mounts.
Heck, in my games, players don't even bother buying horses. Not because I viciously try to deny them their mounts, but because I play many of the animal/beast/magical beast encounters as being more interested in horse flesh than human flesh. Things like wolves, griffons, owlbears, etc. All kinds of forest critters. Even things like goblins realize a horse will feed the clan for a long time, and is usually less armored and easier to kill than the adventurer riding it. Even better, kill the horse and then run away, and the adventurers usually leave it there and march on so the goblins can come back and claim their dinner.
It usually doesn't take too many encounters to un-mount the PCs even without trying to deliberately do it.
Now they can't easily run away.
Others have offered lots of ideas, but I wanted to focus on a few (mostly reinforcing what's already been said):
1. Are you making them track ammo? It seems tedious, and most video games don't bother, so I know lots of DMs who don't worry about it. But for the reasons you stated in the OP, archers have lots of advantages, so anything you don't do just gives them another advantage. So track their ammo, especially if they can't just get right back to town any time they run low, like when they're on a long journey, or when they're deep in a dungeon.
2. Cover. Cover. Cover. Cover. And Cover. Nobody wants to be a pincushion. Sure, wolves and zombies and owlbears don't think about cover. But most intelligent enemies should. Maneuver them so that they keep the other PCs in the way. The mage, the cleric, the fighters, whoever isn't pinging them from range. It often only takes a 5' non-provoking step to put a fighter in the way. And it takes much more than a 5' step for the archer to move far enough to get a clear LOS.
If they can, have them move so a tree or a rock or some other big obstacle is in the way (those cannot step aside to give the archers LOS). Forests are full of such cover, and smart enemies will use it to protect themselves from the archers while they deal with the melee foes.
3. Return fire. Use encounters that outnumber the PCs. Several frontline types to keep the fighters busy, and several archers to return fire to keep the PC archers busy. Here's a tip: even if you're running a pre-made encounter, like many that you can find in the Kingmaker AP, you can add a couple archers to the encounter (you're probably enhancing the encounters anyway since you have two extra players). And you can add archers with limited arrow supply so your players won't really gain much ammo from their corpses after the fight. After all, real-world hunters didn't wander the forest with 40 arrows weighing them down. 6 or 8 was usually enough for a hunting trip.
4. Skirmishers. If you have a dozen orcs attack the group, there is no reason that all 12 of them need to stop and slug it out with the PC fighters. 4 or 5 of them stop, the rest charge right on by and go after the mage, cleric, and archers. This works best after you have unmounted the PCs, or use monsters that are as fast as horses. Your PC archers won't have time to fire even a single arrow if they're x4 running every round, being chased by monsters who are also x4 running.
5. Reinforcements. The best battlefield commanders usually don't commit all their troops at the onset of the engagement. They hold back their fast-movers, usually light cavalry or light footmen, or ranged attackers. Then, once they have gotten their enemy (e.g. the PCs) engaged, they send in their reinforcements, usually as a pincer maneuver (attacking from a second direction to catch the enemy in the middle). It's really easy for that second prong to make a direct assualt on the PCs rear-guard (archers).
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Two thoughts:
1) Sleeping on horseback??? I would use the same rules on them as sleeping in heavy armor...they are exhausted the next day. Especially with the scout, I don't think preventing them from running the next day will sit well with them.
2) Open field somewhere in the wilderness, high grass growing in it, blowing in the wind. Now add a pack of wolves, fast movers that have heavy visual concealment from the archers, yet have little trouble finding the party due to scent ability. Tossing in an encounter like this from time to time should shake things up :)
Two thoughts:
1) Sleeping on horseback??? I would use the same rules on them as sleeping in heavy armor...they are exhausted the next day. Especially with the scout, I don't think preventing them from running the next day will sit well with them.
2) Open field somewhere in the wilderness, high grass growing in it, blowing in the wind. Now add a pack of wolves, fast movers that have heavy visual concealment from the archers, yet have little trouble finding the party due to scent ability. Tossing in an encounter like this from time to time should shake things up :)
Just to play devil's advocate:
1) I don't think anyone was sleeping on horseback - the OP said standing watch on horseback. If they were sleeping on a horse, then I totally agree with you.
2) The DM is playing a pre-generated adventure path. Most of the encounters are already designed and placed where they should happen. While it would be easy for him to add a few new enemies (and he probably has to, since he has 6 players), it would almost always be impractical to relocate the encounters to an alternate location. Of course, for those encounters that do take place in the grasslands, your idea would be awesome.
The maps in Kingmaker, from what I have seen, make it very difficult for players to get very far away from most encounters. Especially after the first 2 scripted ones. There is either dense forest, or you are in a building/dungeon.
Make sure you give the players problems for shooting through the vegetation. It also makes it harder for them to retreat from combat. Draw trees on the map that provide solid cover, and lay out areas of undrebrush that give concealment/are rough terrain. Make sure there is no straight, unhindered line to the combat.
Definetely count ammo. If they don't have the craft skills to make more, that is their problem. Oleg should also have a limitted supply when they go to restock, especially early on. Its not like there is any bowyer in the area. Arrows would be a relatively common good, but also one in high demand, considering his clientel.
Even if you have precise shot, allies still grant soft cover to opponents. Make sure you are giving them the -4. It would be -8 if they don't have precise shot
There was an errata on the 3.5 scout's skirmish ability. It does not work while mounted. This will prevent him from getting full attacks with skirmish.
Smoke sticks, thick brush, cover, ambush.
... Wind Wall, Protection from Arrows, Obscuring Mist, Darkness, Darkness (non-spell), Deflect Arrows feat, Monks, Tower Shields, fast opponents who can stand adjacent...
A smokestick will block line of sight for archers, without the need for magic, so an option for magicless bandits.
Three other things to consider campaign wise.
1) Opponents don't need to use the spells or items on the archers, they simply need to block line of sight while in melee with the other 4 characters.
2) Their enemies will get to know their tactics and adjust their plans accordingly. To me, that means setting up attacks where the likeliest place for the archers to rain arrows down from will have either a trap or some hidden enemies (or both).
3) Arrow supply. Make sure that they keep count of the arrows that they use. Even if they are bowyers and make their own, they may not have time to do so if events are moving with any kind of speed.
Counting special and magical arrows is a must. Beyond very low levels counting standard arrows is probably more annoying than anything else though. I guess it might be a good way to get into the minutiae of the encumbrance rules for those so inclined. If you're up for it remember to track how many of the arrows missed so that you'll know how many have a 50% chance of being recovered.
There are a lot of good ideas above. I'll add
- Stealthy enemies who can sneak up from behind can cut off the escape. If you're in a dungeon with limited escape routes they don't even need to be all that stealthy.
- Sundering the bow seems a little cruel, but tripping the archer is always in good fun. You can't shoot the bow or run away from prone, and the archer probably doesn't get an AoO against the tripper.
I'm surprised the Scout wants to be far away though. I thought they needed to be within 30ft to get their skirmish damage.
Sundering the bow seems a little cruel
Not really.
By that logic, then sundering the fighter's sword is cruel. Or sundering anyone's shield or armor. Or just sundering at all. Then we better not ever use rust monsters, oozes, acids, or any spell that can destroy PCs gear.
I'm not trying to be snarky. I'm just pointing out that these tactics exist, they are valid, and DMs should not be made to feel guilty because they think that using any of them is cruel. Maybe using them all the time is cruel. Maybe focusing the tactic on one PC repeatedly because they mechanically "outsmart" every encounter is cruel to tht one PC/player.
But using them occasionally is perfectly fair and fine and expected. Far from cruel.
but tripping the archer is always in good fun. You can't shoot the bow or run away from prone, and the archer probably doesn't get an AoO against the tripper.
Correct on all counts.
If the archer has only a missile weapon readied, then he cannot make an AoO at all, so you're right, the archer won't get an AoO against the tripper. There are a few ways to avoid this. The archer could take a level of monk, or take Improved Unarmed Strike, in which case he should be able to make his AoO with a kick. Some 3.x source had a "blade-bow" weapon - an ordinary bow that can also be used as a melee weapon, which also means it threatens adjacent squares like a melee weapon. I have even heard some DMs allow an archer to wear spiked gauntlets which makes him armed and threatening, but I myself won't allow that with using bows or crossbows or slings.
Hi guys
I'm looking for a little advise, I'm playing running a group of 6 players through the kingmaker adventure path and 2 of them are ranged specialist (scout and ranger) and I want to know if anyone has any good advice on how to deal with ranged players. During fights they are always as far away from the battle as they can and while the rest of the group is taking the licks from the baddies they shoot comfortably from a distance. They also feel the instant anything even gets remotely close to them. Anyone have any encounter ideas that would negate the bows or bring the fight to them? They never worry during fights just arrows from 100+ft away and if it gets close run so that the other one can shot it and i would like to put a little fear into them.
I got one of them during the night watch with a worg once but now they insist on being on hose back during the night watch...
Using the cover rules will cause them many issues unless they have precise shot, and improved precise shot. A druid with warp wood(maybe not the correct name) to take away the bows might also work.
Yeah, sundering the archer's bow is a valid tactic. So is sundering the wizard's arcane bond item, and that's probably not even difficult if you can figure out what it is. Sundering is something I've rarely seen used in games, so pulling it out all of a sudden and singling out the archers or doing it over and over might seem a little nasty. In groups where sundering is more common maybe that wouldn't be the case. If the enemies are sundering left and right there's no reason they should skip the bows.
I guess that would be a happy world for monks and druids (except for the repeated questions about why you can't sunder their natural weapons)
Counting special and magical arrows is a must. Beyond very low levels counting standard arrows is probably more annoying than anything else though. I guess it might be a good way to get into the minutiae of the encumbrance rules for those so inclined. If you're up for it remember to track how many of the arrows missed so that you'll know how many have a 50% chance of being recovered.
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The campaign is set arround being in the middle of nowhere. They don't have a good place to resupply, and spend weeks at a time in the wilds. If the players do not have a way of making new arrows, then it is perfectly reasonable for them to run out. In my friends homebrew campaign, I haven't been in a town for a few adventures or had the downtime to craft, so I am running on E on my ammunition. It doesn't take long once you start firing multiple shots in a round. My goblin with 12 str going into melee with a non-magical scimitar is funny, but its the most effective thing he can do without ammo. d4+1 FTW
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If you're running Kingmaker, there is plenty you can use to disrupt the "nuking from orbit." I would suggest that a thawn takes an interest in the party and silently follows them. Then, on the next random encounter, have a thawn ambush the archers from afar with their Throw Anything ability. That will effectively divide the party and make the encounter much tougher for them, and probably make them change their tactics if it happens too much.
Also, trickster fey are pre-written into the module. If the PCs get on their bad side, twisted flecthings and frayed bowstrings could be on of the pranks that they play on the party (among other things).
In addition to the good ideas above, I'll add one more: Perception checks.
Remember, it's + 1 for every 10 ft. So from 100 ft away, if that bad guy jumps behind a bush, he gets to +10 to hide.
You can also get the other players to help with this. Here's how:
Have the monsters BEAT whoever is the melee line. Have every bad guy simultaneously attack the front. If he drops, hit him again to make sure. If he's knocked out, coup de grace him, and steal his stuff. Or carry off the body. Or eat it.
And the whole time you're doing this, say things like "The monster looks at the archer on the far off hill, realizes he can't get there, and kills the helpless person at his feet".
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At some point, this will get frustrating, and just mention that you are responding to the tactics that the players are using. The archers have decided to transfer their share of the danger to the front. Point out that they are not doing an equal share. It's not just doing damage, it's also taking damage.
Try to find out -why- the ranged players feel so threatened. What's going on in their heads? Why not be heroic? It's going to take a discussion to solve.
Have the monsters BEAT whoever is the melee line. Have every bad guy simultaneously attack the front. If he drops, hit him again to make sure. If he's knocked out, coup de grace him, and steal his stuff. Or carry off the body. Or eat it.
And the whole time you're doing this, say things like "The monster looks at the archer on the far off hill, realizes he can't get there, and kills the helpless person at his feet".
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At some point, this will get frustrating, and just mention that you are responding to the tactics that the players are using. The archers have decided to transfer their share of the danger to the front. Point out that they are not doing an equal share. It's not just doing damage, it's also taking damage.Try to find out -why- the ranged players feel so threatened. What's going on in their heads? Why not be heroic? It's going to take a discussion to solve.
I am not sure this is "fair". Doing this would punish them for choosing archery as their build.
Archers (and other ranged combatants) don't function well on the front lines. Punishing the archer builds by killing the front-line PCs, especially if you're justifying it by blaming the archers for "not doing an equal share" by taking some damage is equivalent to saying "you should never have chosen archery for a build" - and that is equivalent to saying "I (the DM) should have disallowed archery for PC builds".
In which case the DM is at fault here, but it's a dead PC who gets the short end of this stick (and not even one of the offending archers).
Hence, this isn't really a "fair" approach.
On the other hand, when there is only one PC for the baddies to pound on, that PC should expect to take a pounding, and in a large group (larger than the recommended 4 PCs) that one guy will take an extra pounding because the encounters are all bigger or higher CR to accomodate the large group. So I am definitely not saying that the front-line PC should be exempt from taking beatings.
I'm only saying that blaming archers for not being in the front taking their share of damage is unfair to the players.
Hi guys
During fights they are always as far away from the battle as they can and while the rest of the group is taking the licks from the baddies they shoot comfortably from a distance. They also feel the instant anything even gets remotely close to them.
I'm not about to punish anyone for a particular build. I'm reacting to the statement above. Since archers are just as good from 5ft away as they are from 100ft away, I'm assuming that the problem is with the players.
I'm further assuming that these players are the paranoid type who get very upset if anything negative ever befalls their precious character. This playstyle annoys me; it's childish. It's like saying "sure you can use my ball, as long as I always get to win".
Maybe I'm wrong about all this, but I've met plenty of people who fit the profile above. They are often archers or ranged spellcasters who stay FAR from harm's way. And they often get upset when their main tactic stops working.
Personally, I'd rather face a variety of situations, and I'll do the best I can with each one. Sometimes, I'll have the perfect tool for the job, and sometimes I'll be using a broken chair leg to carve myself out of something's stomach while in a river of lava.
The reason I can do this is trust. I trust the judge to come up with exciting interesting adventures. I trust that I know how the system works, and what options are available. I trust that my character won't get assaulted by wandering damage and die for no reason.
So, I think the best answer for the OP is to deliberately smash the unwritten trust rules that exist in the game. It will call attention to them very effectively, and THEN you can have a conversation about expectations among players, and between the players and the judge.
rkraus, you're not by any chance Robert A. Kraus, the creator of Chakan, or named after him are you?
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Without reading too much of the above statements I will give you some bullets to ponder on.
-Most range depend on being no where near combat..
~ Evard Black Tenacles
~ Charge
~ Tanglefoot bags
These will force to to either move or will be stuck, being focused on combat they will be at a disadvantage.
-Most range usually equip lesser protective armor
~ Multiple or one strong opposing range specialist
~ siege weapons (ha this is just evil)
-Attack thier base abilities.
~ Usually high dex based build, Heavy flatfooted damage
~ Weak fortitude, go go poisons! have spells target their fortitude
All truth being told, a Monk is an archers greatest threat. They can usually close the distance an archer needs. They can stun them, attacking their fortitude.
All truth being told, a Monk is an archers greatest threat. They can usually close the distance an archer needs. They can stun them, attacking their fortitude.
And he didn't even mention deflect arrows...
And for the record, no, I don't know a single thing about Chakan.
So... the SCOUT and the RANGER are not guiding the party through the wilderness, but are lagging behind the party by 100'+? There's several problems with that. First, who's guiding them? Someone needs to be making survival checks to make sure that they don't get lost or wander in circles. Second, the two PCs with kick-ass perception scores are ... 100' away? The front group should be getting ambushed on a regular basis then.
Alternatively, you could throw Swarms at them, which cuts down on all forms of melee damage. Swarms of Spiders, Rats, Bats, Flying Snakes, so on and so forth, will really screw with the ranged types, since their weapons deal 'pin point' damage as opposed to weapns like, say, the Greatsword, the Warhammer and the Flail, all of which deal 'large surface area' damage, while the rules still penalise all melee weapons the same (>_>).
Not much else I can add, given how often devices/spells that can be used to affect LoS and provide a variety of cover effects to the enemy and how much they have been mentioned already.