Ohh me me
str
Dex
con
Int
Wis
Cha
Elven Wizard...
P.S. This is why I prefer point buy...
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I am sure this has already been said. In home games, we do 4d6 and drop the lowest. For something like a convention, i think point buy is better.
I see value with both methods. It is fun to roll the dice.
With point buy you can make sure everyone starts out on the same footing.
So i guess at the end of the day you need to ask if you are having fun.
I'm going to stop rambling.
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I'm not entirely sure about the validity of the "point-buy clones" statement. The entire point of using a point-buy is that the players can customize their characters to nearly exactly what they want. Of course some spreads are optimal, but I'm sure that if you actually took a look you would see quite a bit of variation as people put their own spin on the various classes. Like myself, even when I make a character meant for up-front fighting I almost never neglect my mental stats. I just don't like being handed a random assortment of numbers which may be far superior or inferior to any other assortment of numbers the other players have been given.
So, I guess this whole thread boils down to being either following the dice-god's whims, or breaking free from the tyrannical grasp of the so-called "gods" and choosing your own fate. Okay, so I might be romanticizing it in a completely biased way, but you started it!
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Hey, look. It's a bandwagon.
Strength 3d6
Intelligence 3d6
Wisdom 3d6
Dexterity 3d6
Constitution 3d6
Charisma 3d6The 8 Dexterity and 9 Constitution bode ill for a fighter. (And that's a 23 point buy, incidentally.)
Yeah well, good for you...but I'm at negative point buy value myself. And stuck playing a foolish, unlikeable rogue.
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Trick question. Under a point buy system how much variation (other than racial bonuses) is there in a fighters strength score...
POINT BUY;
Imagine 2 1st level fighters meet in a bar. "Arm wrestle one says?". "Nah, how about we just flip a coin it's the same odds."
4d6, highest 3;
Imagine 2 1st level fighters meet in a bar. "Arm wrestle one says?" The smallest of the 2 eyes the other up. Hmmm, he thinks "I need a cunning, cunning plan". He slips over to the bar maid and offers 1 gp if she'll "distract" his opponent (Diplomacy check or god-forbid some roleplaying ensues). She agrees. The battles begins, of course odds were on the Conan-sque fighter but just as he grins and applies the final amount of pressure to win over the pipsqueek fighter before him he spies two milky white globes of... <ahem>
Anyway, I'm sure I have made my point why random is the way my games roll.
S.
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Trick question. Under a point buy system how much variation (other than racial bonuses) is there in a fighters strength score...
POINT BUY;
Imagine 2 1st level fighters meet in a bar. "Arm wrestle one says?". "Nah, how about we just flip a coin it's the same odds."4d6, highest 3;
Imagine 2 1st level fighters meet in a bar. "Arm wrestle one says?" The smallest of the 2 eyes the other up. Hmmm, he thinks "I need a cunning, cunning plan". He slips over to the bar maid and offers 1 gp if she'll "distract" his opponent (Diplomacy check or god-forbid some roleplaying ensues). She agrees. The battles begins, of course odds were on the Conan-sque fighter but just as he grins and applies the final amount of pressure to win over the pipsqueek fighter before him he spies two milky white globes of... <ahem>Anyway, I'm sure I have made my point why random is the way my games roll.
S.
Unless your rolling straight down, that doesn´t hold true. The fighter will STILL place the high stat in their strength. And even then with 6 strength, I doubt somebody will try for fighter with that.
Yep. Exactly why I refuse to use point buy. I'd rather play a commoner with all 3s than a 99 point buy character.I'm still a 4d6 best 3 any order sort of guy. Reasons Goblin stated - PC's look like clones in the point buy system as there is a "no brainer" layout for them depending on class.
Down with clones.
Exactly. 4d6, take the 3 highest. Produces decent, and varied, characters. As for clones, as long as we're talking Star Wars I have no problem with them :D
*edit* I suspect the point buy system is beloved of the optimization crowd (which is fine by the way) while 4d6 is the popular method for others. I haven't looked through the thread with that in mind, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - I'm curious how that breaks down.
The gods are capricious and cruel.
The dice gods are even more so.
At some point, you want to ask people why they want to choose their character at all. I mean, you could just have pre-generated characters and hand them out randomly at the table and still have a good time, but you want people to emotionally invest in their characters and the only way you do that is by letting them customize them.
By that logic, choosing stats makes as much sense as choosing class, skills, and feats.
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Stat-rolling mimics the down-side of life itself: When it comes to genetics, you get dealt some cards and them's the breaks.
Randomizing anything other than stats makes no sense because those are choices made by the characters themselves.
That, and I like seeing who the dice gods favor this week. I might try that grid method sometime, but since my players just finished rolling up characters to start a new campaign I'll have to wait until one of them dies a horrible horrible death.
Go low go low go low go low I want a -15 point buyyyy
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DEX
CON
INT
WIS
CHA
EDIT: Yesssssss
-2, 3, 2, 1, 2, -9. -3 point buy total! Awesooome.
Trying 4d6 drop lowest:
STR
DEX
CON
INT
WIS
CHA
9, 17, 14, 15, 12, 6.
20 point buy.
Re-rolling ones:
STR
DEX
CON x
INT
WIS
CHA
10, 17, 14, 15, 13, 8. 26 point buy!
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It's actually a lot of fun, and because of the way I handle the character generation process (as a pre-game roleplaying session through the character's life as these abilities are gained) it really builds a lot of depth and emotional attachment into the character.
I could see this being a lot of fun, but I imagine this works primarily because your group is comprised of very avid roleplayers. In a roleplay heavy group stat disparity is less of a factor.
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Interestingly enough though, I just finished a session with my optimized 'combat monster' Pathfinder Paladin player, and all we did the entire session was just roleplay back and forth between him and the Highwaymen that had intended to gut and rob him at his campfire, and instead he ended up persuading them to give up crime and go find work in his home town where he'd just come from. Through the whole game we made maybe 6 rolls, a couple perceptions, a couple stealths, and he made two diplomacy checks. And some people have this idea that optimizers are all about killing and/or fighting and don't want to RP>>
I hear that. My characters may be beasts in combat but that doesn't mean I'm not down for a 8 hour session with 30 minutes of combat. So long as we get EXP for it!
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Heh, I cheat. I reward my characters with levels when I feel they're characters have grown enough in the story. It's got absolutely nothing to do with the b&&#-kicking that they happen to do along the way.
Guilty of that as well. My college group was notorious for that. Unfortunately the DMs would still ping you a level for dying so if you died you were stuck behind everyone with no way to earn it back.
But in my opinion, it all started with the reroll button.This feels like a pretty astute observation.
One of my friends had a "method" of rolling dice where he'd do the 4d6/drop the lowest method... but he'd sit there rolling dice until he rolled an 18 and THAT would be the first die roll of his character.
Had another friend who wrote a computer program that would generate stats using the 4d6/drop lowest method, but only report on results where the average ability score was 16. Wonder of Wonders, his character ended up with having all 16s for ability scores.
And ANOTHER friend would simply roll up three or four pages of stats (that's about 250 or so characters) and then picked the set he liked the best.
All of which, to me, feels like behavior that was encourage by that pesky reroll button, since all of these "methods" were popular among my college friends at about the time Pool of Radiance and those games first hit.
I think James turned out pretty well with such odd friends xD
For Normal games, we use a 4D6 drop the lowest and place them where you like, just like a lot of folks here.
For Heroic Games, I use 3D6 three times keeping the ones you like from each roll... in other words, like yahtzee. First roll is a 1, 4, 6 you keep the 6 roll the 1 and 4 if you like. If you rolled the 1 and 4 and got a 1 and 3 well, you now either keep the 3 and roll the 1 again or go for broke and roll em both. Do that three times per stat and stuff em where ya want. It made for some really powerful characters.
I personally hate point by. Why? I honestly can't tell you why... I just don't. I liked the dice rolling, it's why we play... to let the dice decide our fate sometimes.
I understand that point by systems let you have more balanced characters but it just doesn't have that feel that I have come love watching folks roll up characters.
Oh, and I 'Put Down' any character with two negative stats in my games. That to me is a handicap that I don't want characters to play. I do have some that don't mind running 2 negative stats if they have some good rolls to offset them. Makes for some intresting RPing in the game. Weak, sickly mages.....yeah you know the type. Ugly, stupid fighters... some folks enjoy that stuff.
Which ever system you use, just make sure your players are happy with the system and Roll ON!! errr, or Buy ON!!
Hope this helps
Have fun out there
~ W ~
Strength:
Intelligence:
Wisdom:
Dexterity:
Constitution:
Charisma:
First edition, of course. I'm making an Elf Magic-User/Thief.
Point buy value is 16, which is great for 3d6. Of course, since this is AD&D 1st edition, I only have two stats that matter here (Dex for the +1 AC and bonus to thief abilities, and Intelligence for the % Chance to Learn Spell), and they're both prime requisites. I think I get +10% XP in thief.
But in my opinion, it all started with the reroll button.This feels like a pretty astute observation.
One of my friends... [Examples]
All of which, to me, feels like behavior that was encourage by that pesky reroll button, since all of these "methods" were popular among my college friends at about the time Pool of Radiance and those games first hit.
I totally despise the Reroll button in Pool of Radiance/Pools of Darkness.
It's far better to use a hex-editor and adjust all your stats to 25.
I think I get +10% XP in thief.
Yep, Elf will give you the 16 Dex required.
I think some of people's preferences come down to what their expectation is coming in. If a player comes to the table to create his character with a firm idea of exactly what kind of character he wants to play, he isn't likely to be happy with a randomly rolled character, unless he gets lucky or is using one of the many alternate methods people use to modify die rolls.
I, on the other hand, like playing pretty much every kind of character (even bards and clerics), and enjoy the anticipation of seeing what the dice will give me. It's kind of like opening presents on Christmas. What is it in that strangely shaped box? A shiny new wizard? A dashing rogue? A brutish barbarian? It's all good.
One last thing. I get very discouraged reading the various posters who refer to either their own or someone else's character as "gimped" or "unplayable" or "dead weight" or "a liability" because their stats are lower than someone else's. In thirty years playing RPGs, I have never, ever seen the success of a character be determined by what their stats are. The success of individual actions or die rolls, sure, but not the overall success of the character. Some of the most successful characters I've seen have either serious flaws or mediocre stats. Overall success comes from the choices a character makes and how he is played, not the rolls. That is as true in 3.5 and PF as it was in 1st ed.
After all, over enough time, the luck of the dice will even out. Guaranteed. Ask any casino owner. They wouldn't be making money if that weren't the case.
I totally despise the Reroll button in Pool of Radiance/Pools of Darkness.It's far better to use a hex-editor and adjust all your stats to 25.
Ha! Who needs stats when you can make a "BAG"?
Don't know if the other platforms had this issue, but on the C64, if you had a pile of arrows (might have worked with other items, I don't recall), you could "DIVIDE" the pile and keep dividing a smaller pile until you filled up the inventory screen. If you divided again, you created an item called "BAG" which was either a missile weapon or a melee weapon (I think it depended on what item you displaced off the bottom of the screen) that was +86 to hit and did 1d6+86 points of damage.
1. Make one BAG for each party member
2. Walk up to dragon
3. Bag it
4. PROFIT!!!
to Set you didn't happen to go to CSU?
Anyways my roll
3d6=5, 5, 6=16
3d6=6, 5, 6=17
3d6=6, 6, 1=13
3d6=1, 3, 1=5
3d6=2, 5, 2=9
3d6=4, 5, 4=13
3d6=4, 2, 2=8
so I am ugly, dumb, above average in my common sense, tough, really good with my agility, and strong as an ox.
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You could offer the other players re-rolls too, but where does the cycle end? Few people would ever want to play a DEMONSTRABLY handicapped character. Imagine you roll a set of stats where your highest stat is a 13 and most of your stats fall in the 6-10 range.
I'd play it, if before hand we established that you weren't allowed to re-roll if your total modifier was less than +1.
Hey look my gnome rogue is really smart ( I chose race and class first :D)
Actually, i believe that, as well as the pool of radiance thing, this partially started because casters had to have a stat of 10+spell level to actually cast that level of spells.
Believe me, i wouldn't ever care if i had a 12 int/wis and knew i could cast 9th level spells when the time came.
Heh, i hadn't played since 2nd edition and created a monk.
We were allowed to roll 2 sets of 4d6(reroll 1's) and i ended up with 3 6's in my first set of stats.
The second set of stats were ok,but i don't know how to play a character with a lot of low stats.
A 10 in everything,ok, but 6's and i have no clue.
Also, to me, it can be just as frustrating playing someone with multiple 6's as it is playing someone with a lot of high stats.
I rerolled away from the monk due to lack of interest in playing him, and ended up with a druid that has a ton of super stats.I don't know how to play a character with a 17 charisma, 17 int and 18 wis.
Str:
Dex:
Con:
Int:
Wis:
Cha:
Umm... a sorcerer that stays far far away that anything that can touch him
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Stat-rolling mimics the down-side of life itself: When it comes to genetics, you get dealt some cards and them's the breaks.Y'know, when I play pathfinder with my friends, the last thing I want to hear is "sorry man, your character just sucks, thems the breaks..."
Which is why I utilize modifier ranges to make sure they're "in the ballpark" on overall power, but still let the dice decide which numbers show up.
One of my favorites (that I haven't used for a while) is 4d6 drop the lowest, deadlock. Then allow the player to switch any two stats and reroll any one stat (in either order). I believe it's sometimes called the "Natural" rolling method.I still keep it modifier locked, but it allows players to make sure that they get that one stat they really want and get two chances at their choice secondary stat (initial roll + reroll), while still allowing weird chance combinations to show up. If a player rolls a set that has a total modifier equal to the maximum then they don't get a reroll. If they reroll and the new stat puts them above the maximum it is restricted to the highest value that isn't over (rather than requiring them to reroll the set). When using this method I usually raise the allowed modifier by 1 (on both ends) to account for not-so-useful good stats showing up.
Another toon rolled with "natural" and no mod range (keep it quick):
Str:
Dex:
Con:
Int:
Wis:
Cha:
Pre reroll/swap: 11, 11, 15, 18, 11, 9
Reroll the 9:
So now it's 11, 11, 15, 18, 11, 14
(if I was mod-locking it would be a a cap of +8, which this toon barely meets)
I think I'll forgo the reroll and play a durable/charismatic wizard. Human, with a bonus placed in int. I can spare some points for UMD and have a fairly versatile wizard (hurray cleric wands!). Probably invest in a combination of buff spells and save-based spells (since I have the int for it).
Final:
Str: 11
Dex: 11
Con: 15
Int: 20
Wis: 11
Cha: 15
I go with the standard method (4d6, drop lowest) because my players have expressed a severe dislike of point buy. They like to roll dice - ability scores, hit points, it doesn't matter.
That said, I do allow them to reroll or take the standard array if they're very unhappy with their scores. I don't want to listen to whining, and I trust them not to test my patience. Interestingly, one of my players would gladly take 10, 11, 11, 11, 12, 13 over 18, 18, 16, 14, 8, 6.
And, caving to peer pressure...
Ah...a sickly, clumsy wizard who turned to magic as a way of dealing with all those playground bullies.
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That's a strawman argument.
You want to pull "Stormwind Fallacy" out while your at it?
The example was extreme to make my point. NOT having an optimised stat leads to either the defeatist attitude of "My character sucks, you guys all have far better stats", because a character hinge entirely on stats and game mechanics right?! Or, having to invest a little bit of time and effort into creating a roleplaying situation that allows you to mitagate your numeric (only numeric, not character) disadvantage.
S.
PS: I don't believe the Stormwind Fallacy is a fallacy. Just a bunch of number crunchers self-justifying the fact they "push" the rules of a system so much it buggers the game up for the DM and the other players. Well done guys, take a bow. But don't get offended by this statement - just repeat the mantra "Stormwind Fallacy" several times...