Which is better in your opinion and why?
That depends entirely on what you plan on doing.
For wilderness settings, and as an all-round you-name-it-I-can-do-something character, rogue/ranger is good. If you want a sniper, it's also good, and it makes a tougher in-your-face fighter.
For urban and dungeon settings, or where you may need a 'face' as much as a 'muscle', where you have to deal with traps and devices and magic oddments, where you will use surprise and flanking a lot, rogue is the way to go.
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Which is better in your opinion and why?
Well, given those two options, I would go with the ranger / rogue because levels in rogue gives me more skill points, opens up more skill options and gets me sneak attack - all things that work great with a ranger. It makes more of a scout type of class in a way.
Of course, I could actually offer up a single class ranger variant that does all of the above things and more ... but that's not what this thread is about! :)
So, ranger/rogue for me in most cases.
Which is better in your opinion and why?
Which ever fits the character's concept is better because that would be option that better fits the character's concept.
Of course, I could actually offer up a single class ranger variant that does all of the above things and more ... but that's not what this thread is about!
I am well aware of what you are referring to. Its the best of both worlds
I would like to see some more ranger talents though
For two weapon fighting, I would go Ranger/Rogue every time. Rangers can have a hard time doing enough damage, but if you can flank and add sneak attack, then problem solved.
For an Archery build, I would go straight Ranger. Sneak attack doesn't connect often enough with Ranged attack, so the lost BAB is not worth it.
For non-combat, it really depends what you want to do. A Ranger with at least one level of Rogue should be effectively able to do all the stuff a full Rogue can do, and have the skill points to maintain it. If you want the bonuses for trap detection, then extra Rogue levels work fine.
If you aren't planning to be a trap-detector/remover, then the Rogue levels aren't providing much except a small skill bonus. Note however, those Rogue levels can give goodies like full move while being Stealthy - quite useful for a Ranger.
Yeah, a Ranger with a couple Rogue levels can be a perfect scout.. track and stealth at full speed with minimal penalties (and with only 3 Rogue levels or less, you still get HiPS, along with camouflage).
If you are wanting more combat, then 8 Rogue levels gives you Improved Uncanny Dodge, as well as the option for some decent feats to go with you sneak attack (weapon finesse, weapon focus and any other combat feat).
This is very different from the recent assassin/rogue thread, as Rangers have a very different role to fill (different BAB, combat bonuses, magic, etc).
Don't forget option #3 the spell-less ranger variant from Kobold Quarterly 11. You lose your spells but gain 'sneak attack' and a sort of ranger equivalent of rogue talents. Starts to blur the line between them and you still get to keep your fluffy little animal companion.
I love that class myself, and that is what Mr Radle was referring to
Yeah it just depends on what you want the character to do.
The classes do mix well if done properly. Even with the Archer Ranger, four levels of Rogue can offer a lot: uncanny dodge, +2d6 sneak attack, two rogue talents (which could be used for feats to negate the -1 BAB), trapfinding, and a boost to Reflex saves. Still, that comes with a cost: delayed favored enemy/terrain bonuses, delayed spellcasting (the rangers best spells are 3rd and 4th lvl), delayed bonus feats (which can hurt if relying on the Ranger not needing prereqs to get the feats). And possibly worst of all is the animal companions slowed progression; if using an AC then cross classing can make it near useless in combat.
Definitely with a two weapon fighting build, a few levels of Rogue can be a huge benefit. But for all the benefit, theres a tradeoff. So you have to figure out what exactly you want your character to do and plan for it accordingly.
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Reminder: under Pathfinder rules, anybody who isn't a half-elf will find multi-classing exacts a penalty. A Rogue's d8 (average 4.4) hit die doesn't sound that much worse than the Ranger's d10 (average 5.5), until you realize that a character with Favored Class Ranger can take another hit point on top of that.
Reminder: under Pathfinder rules, anybody who isn't a half-elf will find multi-classing exacts a penalty. A Rogue's d8 (average 4.4) hit die doesn't sound that much worse than the Ranger's d10 (average 5.5), until you realize that a character with Favored Class Ranger can take another hit point on top of that.
Or they can take another 1 HP on top of the Rogue's d8. And we forget that the previous hit die for both classes was one smaller than what they have under Pathfinder.
For a scout or tomb raider, rogue-ranger is a lot of fun--you get a LOT to do both in and out of combat (though you will not be DPS king, but that's never a priority IMHO), and the skills synergize nicely. TWF gets sneak attack more often, but you can do a good ranged build that way too (work on learning to snipe).
Otherwise, for ye classic sneak/assassin/lockpicker/sneak attacker pure rogue is better.
If you want to do mostly warrior but good at stealth and/or finding stuff, stick with pure ranger.
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Well, Cartigan, in that case they've chosen Rogue as their favored class, and aren't getting the additional hit point or skill rank for their ranger levels. In that case, the ranger levels for the Ranger / Rogue are simply worse than they would be for the straight-ahead Ranger.
The point being: a single-class Ranger enjoys the benefits of favored class at all levels. The Ranger / Rogue does not, unless the character is half-elven.
Comparing Pathfinder classes to the weaker 3.5 analogues seems off-topic.
Comparing Pathfinder classes to the weaker 3.5 analogues seems off-topic.
In the cases of pointing out that 'X' class is more powerful than 'Y' class in some situation because X class has a larger hit dice, pointing out that X class used to have Y's hit dice in 3.5 while still filling the same role it now fills with a larger hit dice. Therefore, the "lower" hit dice for 'Y' isn't really that much of a detriment.
I bring you my experience of playing a lv 13° evil ranger, Walker.
I was thinking about dual classing to rogue, just one level, in order to get the nice class abilities bonuses (I think of acrobatics, using magic devices and such), be able to find any kind of trap including magical (I've already a very nice perception check) and get the possibility of extra 1d6 sneak attack damage, that would be mostly on arrows on the first round of combat, eventually. But what I'd lose? Basically, base attack bonus (which is a BIG loss), spells, ranger features, and it would slow down the advancement of my animal companion, Dianone, who I love (she's an enlarged armored bear, with 3 int and some barbarian levels).
As far as the campaign goes on, I see the ranger as a very strong option. I'm stealthy, I've nice AC, I can slow down enemies with spells and my arrows hit them really hard (with my +2 bow, my str bonus and deadly aim, they are +16 dmg); when I'm forced into melee, I take my falchion and slice them (improved critical, power attack and having strength as my main ability score means pure pain).
All this not considering the favored enemy bonuses and other interesting options (the quarry ability is underrated in my opinion: +2 attack and automatic critical confirmation can be deadly, almost as an assassin studying his victim and delivering a death attack). Spells are also quite nice: longstrider, entangle, resist energy, barkskin, spike growth, greater magic fang, just to give examples, are among my favorites.
Considering all I would not lose any ranger level to gain rogue benefits, I do great the way I'm playing. The only reason I can think for switching to Rogue, it would be if we had no other Rogue in the party: than I would do it basically to be able to find difficult traps and get the skills my group lacks.
Also I would suggest if you want to do such a thing to make sure you have darkvision somehow: it would be otherwise very hard to be stealthy while exploring the dungeon, with a torch in your hand! (Ranger gets darkvision only as 3° spell, which means probably not before level 11°).
Cheers!
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Depends on what your trying to make. And what kind of campaign your in. There is no best of the two there is only what fits your character concept better.
My personal preference is Ranger6/Rogue14. That comes from way to many characters at lower level that don't work so well. And me wanting a character that is Str base rater then Dex base. Played to Meany high level games that got in to DR where a Dex base really starts to have problems. My old memory's of the pain it was will not let me make a character that might end up the same way. There are ways around it now, but that will not change my mind about them after 4 or 5 characters ran in to the same problem.
Just my 5 cents:
The thing about ranger/rogue is that if you actually use that sneak attack bonus, it's maybe better not to lose the d6 sneak attack bonuses and if you want to dual class into something, chose something that offers you better synergies with rogue (from 6 levels of ranger for example, you just get modest spells as a 3° caster, and a 3 hit dice pet), like a shadowdancer or maybe an assassin (also to not lose sneak attack bonuses).
If I think of mine ranger, in a standard fight I'm never in position to use an ipotetic snake attack: I'm shooting from the distance, or I'm slicing in close quarters. I would use some d6 extra damage just when flanking with my cleric/barbarian buddy, but considering the cost of those extra d6 damage in BAB, caster level, pet's level and hit points... Not for me!
In the end it totally depends on the campaign and on the group tactics, as always, but in my opinion would be better to boost your sneak attack if you use it (being a complete rogue, or rogue / assassin for example) or just leave it, since you have many benefits to level up as a pure ranger.
But it's definetly up to you. another option would be for example to take 1 or 3/4 rogue levels: just missing 1 BAB, and getting some d6 extra dmg and some useful class skills. And still being a ranger.