I'm interested in people's opinions on which of these 4 classes would be the most powerful/useful/potent starting from lvl3 through to lvl10 with a 25 point heroic build using only Pathfinder core rules and the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide. I like the flavour of a character with a companion or several summoned minions and consider the following the best possible options:
1. Sorcerer (Abyssal bloodline) with a focus on summoning spells
2. Wizard Conjurer Specialist with a focus on summoning spells
3. Combative Druid who shapechanges and has a powerful animal companion
4. Summoner and his Eidolon
So which is the best and why? Also include how you would make the build you select from the above 4 choices optimal. Just to clarify, when I say a focus on summoning spells, I don't mean to the exclusion of all other spells which would gimp the build. Also, I'm not interested in answers like "They are all good. Just pick the one which appeals the most." As far as I'm concerned, they are all flavoursome and all have appeal. So which is the most potent from a power gaming point of view.
Thanks in advance for your opinions. Be as frank and controversial as you like in your assessment.
Wizard-it's a wizard
Druid-
Summoner-
Sorcerer-
2-4 might be interchangeable. What the rest of the party is playing is also a factor.
The "summoner" is probably the best summoner, but the druid and wizard can do other things.
Thanks to you both for your replies. So it seems that Wizard followed by the Druid are the most potent then.
I'd only just started reading the Advanced Player's Guide and the Summoner intrigued me. I understand that its slower spell progression put it behind the other 3 classes, but thought perhaps that there might be some particular build for the Eidolon that might make up for that. I'm still trying to get my head around the Eidolon. I guess it's not enough to make up for the lack of spell fire-power then.
Many were of the opinion that the wizard(conjurer), wizard(transmuter) and druid were the most powerful classes from D&D3.5. I guess that power ranking has largely stayed the same translating over into Pathfinder.
With a 25 point build you could do a druid very well as you can get many stats up there. But it really depends on if you want to be a caster and have your minions do the work for you. Or if you want to get in the thick of it.
A druid can self buff plus pet buff then SNA for a grand old time fighting in the thick of it leading the charge. Plus the ability to heal is huge.
A wizard will not be as survivable in in a fight, but will really have more options and more feats to play with.
I would put a Sorc between the wizard and druid but without the healing.
The Summoner is really all about the pet... so very good for single target fighting.
And of course the BEST one is the one that is the most fun and fits your play style.
Many were of the opinion that the wizard(conjurer), wizard(transmuter) and druid were the most powerful classes from D&D3.5. I guess that power ranking has largely stayed the same translating over into Pathfinder.
To be fair you only asked about those classes plus a couple of more. Many classes are more on par with wizards and druids now. Depending on who you ask the cleric, fighter, paladin, wizard, and sorcerer are all "uber broken" or "nerfed beyond playability" :) It just depends who you ask and what you are trying to do.
The barbarian, ranger, and bard are generally less talked one way or the other but they are still very good in their own way and in their niche.
Many were of the opinion that the wizard(conjurer), wizard(transmuter) and druid were the most powerful classes from D&D3.5. I guess that power ranking has largely stayed the same translating over into Pathfinder.
Well Druid was pound for pound the best class in 3.5 (Wizard may have overtook this at levels 11 or 13+, but Druids were good 1-20), however I would say that 9 times out of 10 it was better to be a generalist wizard than a specialist in 3.5, especially if you were an elf.
I would suggest Conjurer or Druid here, the difference being whether you want to be a bookworm or a treehugger.
At 3rd and 4th level before the druid can wildshape and the arcanists get the world go boom spells the eidolon can be a brutal combatant that outshines the druid pet by leaps and bounds.
If this is a one on one fight the arcanists better be popping something to hide or run at 5th when the eidolon gets fly and the summoner gets a 5 minute lantern archon or dretch.
Its still always hard at a high point buy for a summoner to match up party based because their spells are fairly gimped. A 10 or 15 point buy, and the summoner stomps the others for the same reason that summoners lose at the 25.
So at levels 3, 4 and maybe 5 the Summoner can hold its own against those other classes because the Eidolon is a brute at those levels. Then from levels 6 to 10 those other full spellcasting classes pull away. That's quite interesting. I think too many people focus on what a character will look like at 20th level when I think most play time is spent progressing through levels 3 to 10 as the first 2 levels are gained fairly quickly.
On a side issue, what do people think is the ultimate build for an Eidolon progressing through levels 3 to 10?
I'm interested in people's opinions on which of these 4 classes would be the most powerful/useful/potent
So to the OP... What exactly do you want to do? Are you concerned with outshining your fellow players in damage? Do you want to summon hordes of creatures? Do you want to blast? Do you want to be "God" over the battlefield, helping or hindering as your will dictates?
Well blasting doesn't interest me. If I wanted to blast away then I'd play a standard sorcerer or an evocation specialist wizard.
The other paths to power are all equally interesting. :) I'm just curious to see what is the best way to dominate the battlefield when you have summoned allies, companions, an Eidolon etc at your disposal in the lower level ranges (3 to 10) with a heroic build (25 points).
I wanted to see if one of the 4 ways I originally mentioned clearly stood out as a more potent build than the others. Some have suggested that the wizard still has an edge once you get past those very early levels. I am inclined to agree though I am going to study the Eidolon more closely to see if there is a build combination that makes your Summoner shine in every battle.
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So which is the best and why? Also include how you would make the build you select from the above 4 choices optimal. Just to clarify, when I say a focus on summoning spells, I don't mean to the exclusion of all other spells which would gimp the build.
I think it depends on the level within that range and the campaign.
In my humble opinion, druids are the worst summoner on that list. True, they get to swap spells but there are mitigating factors.
One, druids cast summon nature's ally which is worse than summon monster. The celestial template, and its awesome smite ability GREATLY increases the summoned creature's damage (close to double in some cases).
Also the druid pays more for augment summoning directly or indirectly. For one, druids have some necessary feats (natural spells) and have more to do with their feats than the other classes, Two, the other classes all can get augment summoning or its pre-req as a bonus feat (except summoner). Three, wizards and sorcerers can actually make use of their spell focus conjuration feat.
Thirdly, wizard and summoner have better summoning class features. At low level the wizard class feature lets your summon stick around long enough to be worth the casting. This is even more true for the summoner.
The best feature for a druid summoner is wildshape. It is a cheap and long duration fly ability that few other classes can match over that level range.
But to break it down:
Levels 3-4: probably druid is the most effective. You can heal, your animal companion is strong, and at level 4 you can wildshape.
Level 5: Wizards gets Fireball and druid gets natural spell. Summoner gets energy attacks on his eidolon.
Level 6: Probably the most even level. Druid gets nothing new. Sorcerer gets 3rd level spells and summoner gets a large eidolon.
Level 7: Good druid, summoner, and wizard level. The 4th level summoning spells are markedly better than the 3rd level spells. The druid has access to the big animal companion upgrades. The summoner gets 3rd level spells...many of which are great 4th level spells: fire shield and stone skin for example.
Level 8: Sorcerer catches up and joins the 4th level summons party.
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I used to be of the opinion that nothing is better then a full spellcaster. I am still MOSTLY of that opinion, but it turns out the summoner is fricken badass.
If you want to play a character with a powerful pet and a bunch of summoned minions, play the summoner. In addition to having a pet and summons you can literally be and do almost anything else. You have a good set of arcane spells to choose from, you can give your eidolon a spell like ability for any of your prefered arcane spells you are missing. You can also make yourself into a competant melee character with some good buffs available and a badass melee pet working alongside of you with summons to flank and absorb damage. You can be a skill based character by increasing your own int a little, and taking advantage of your eidolons VERY flexible skill list and the 'skilled' evolution that gives you a stackable +8 (yes i said 8) to any skill. The only thing you cant do is be a divine caster.
I am currently playing a 20pt buy melee summoner with a quadraped eidolon, and from level 1 my dog and I are kicking butt. At higher levels your eidolon does not fall behind as fast as the druids animal companion and you still have a collection of most of the best buff spells in the game. Add that to your long duration summons and your own combat abilities and you are the best individual PC at dishing out and taking damage. The action economy is heavily in your favor, even in big fights.