There were enough posts on another thread for me to want to just spin off the discussion separately.
A lot of people seem to assume that an ape (either animal companion or wildshape) should be able to wield weapons in its forelimbs. Are there any RAW or official rulings to support this, or is it just assumed because they have "hands" they should be able to wield humanoid weapons even while other animals can't?
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Short answer: No RAW that I know of.
Long answer: I think this comes down to "can they grasp as a humanoid?" Which in turn must be determined by whether they have a grasping digit, or in other words, an opposable thumb. Apes, chimps, et al. have this digit, so (given the proper proficiency or penalties for lack thereof) they should be able to wield a weapon (or other object for that matter). Most species of animal do not have this digit, which is why they can't wield weapons.
I would (assuming it still has normal animal int of <= 3) require at least a "trick" (a la handle animal) to get them to wield the weapon instead of just punching (since that's their natural inclination). Other than that it's just a matter of proficiency.
Of course, the above two paragraphs may fall into the realm of "house rule," but oh well :)
You know my answer.
No for a normal ape.
Yes for a Druid Wildshaped into an ape or anything with hands similar to a human.
Just because RAW there isn't a rule doesn't mean common sense should get thrown out either. As I said there isn't anything in RAW saying elephants can't jump a 5' wall but common sense (and anatomy) says they can't.
There is nothing in the book.
However, it's worth noting that on real Earth, one major distinction beween humans and primates is the ability to use tools. More specifically, primates are physically capable of tool-use. They have hands, thumbs, arms, and binocular vision. However, they still don't use tools. Intellectually, they're not wired for it. Or evolved for it. Or whatever.
So no, I don't imagine a primate in Pathfinder should be any more capable of tool-use than a primate on Earth.
Put a sword in an ape's hand and throw him into battle, and he will throw his sword on the ground, beat his chest, and rush into the fray, grappling and biting at his enemy.
That's not to say that we can't use magic or other game rules to modify our critters. For example, a druid's animal companion can gain an ability score increase at 4th, 9th, 14th, and 20th level. According to the Core rules, a permanent INT score of 3 is required to understand speech. Tool-use (to the point of sublimating instinct and making tool-use a first option instead of instinct) is probably a little harder than simply understanding speech, so maybe set that at a 4 INT. This would require a permanent change to the animal (just casting Fox's Cunning won't cut it).
Likewise, giving your ape a Headband of Intellect might work.
And don't forget the Awaken spell which will give it 3d6 INT. Heck, with a good roll, it's possible a druid could easily awaken an animal or plant with more intelligence than the druid himself has. Certainly an ape with all the necessary physiology and a human-like intellect could learn to wield weapons.
None of which is RAW, because there isn't any RAW on this.
As far as wildshaping into an ape, yes, the ape is fully equipped to hold and use weapons, and the druid certainly knows how to use weapons, so it should be entirely possible and allowable. Of course, this then becomes a bit of an exploit, but still it's one that is within the rules.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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If the ape were the subject of an awaken spell or something similar that gave it more than basic animal intelligence, I don't see any reason why they couldn't use weapons. For a standard ape, I'd let them use clubs (and greatclubs) as improvised weapons. Anything else, no way.
The only time i think an ape should be able to use weapons is if it has had its intelligence raised somehow to the point where it can take the weapon proficiency feat. An animal companion, for instance when it gets that point to spend on an ability, and gives it to int, from that point forward i definately think it should be able to use weapons.
More specifically, primates are physically capable of tool-use. They have hands, thumbs, arms, and binocular vision.
Yes, but do they have upright posture? Are their limbs properly shaped and sized to use weapons effectively?
It seems to me that in the case of the gorilla at least, the answer is probably no.|
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More specifically, primates are physically capable of tool-use. They have hands, thumbs, arms, and binocular vision.Yes, but do they have upright posture? Are their limbs properly shaped and sized to use weapons effectively?
It seems to me that in the case of the gorilla at least, the answer is probably no.
IIRC, you need an int of 3 to take all of the normal feats, so RAW, there is nothing stopping you from giving your ape one of the weapon prof feats after you use the first stat bump to give it a 3 int. Ape + Lg Greatsword + various combat feats (PA, etc)= some really mean sh!t.
IIRC, you need an int of 3 to take all of the normal feats, so RAW, there is nothing stopping you from giving your ape one of the weapon prof feats after you use the first stat bump to give it a 3 int. Ape + Lg Greatsword + various combat feats (PA, etc)= some really mean sh!t.More specifically, primates are physically capable of tool-use. They have hands, thumbs, arms, and binocular vision.Yes, but do they have upright posture? Are their limbs properly shaped and sized to use weapons effectively?
It seems to me that in the case of the gorilla at least, the answer is probably no.
RAW, there's no stopping you from doing the same to your animal companion bear, wolf, or eagle.
Except the question of whether or not they have the anatomy necessary to wield the weapon. I agree that the wolf and eagle don't, and I argue in all sincerity that I don't think the ape and bear do either.
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IIRC, you need an int of 3 to take all of the normal feats, so RAW, there is nothing stopping you from giving your ape one of the weapon prof feats after you use the first stat bump to give it a 3 int. Ape + Lg Greatsword + various combat feats (PA, etc)= some really mean sh!t.More specifically, primates are physically capable of tool-use. They have hands, thumbs, arms, and binocular vision.Yes, but do they have upright posture? Are their limbs properly shaped and sized to use weapons effectively?
It seems to me that in the case of the gorilla at least, the answer is probably no.RAW, there's no stopping you from doing the same to your animal companion bear, wolf, or eagle.
Except the question of whether or not they have the anatomy necessary to wield the weapon. I agree that the wolf and eagle don't, and I argue in all sincerity that I don't think the ape and bear do either.
The difference between an ape and the other animals you've mentioned is the fact that apes have opposable thumbs and can actually grasp the weapon. As for the non-opposable-thumbed animals, if you could find a weapon they could feasibly grasp and use, I would have no problem with giving them weapon prof and lettin em have at it.
I do not think they would be able to wield many weapons as efficiently as humanoids, despite having similar hands they have trouble walking upright, taking effective fighting stance things like that.
It is a GM's call, but I think it stretches credibility to have them use weapons and many other tools without penalty.
Isn't there a race of intelligent winged apes in Golarion? If so then yes, Apes may uses weapons officially if they are smart enough to take the feat.
EDIT: Yep in J3: Crucible of Chaos, a race of flying apes called the Derhii.They use Javelins and falchions
I'm not a zoologist, but I know most, if not all, apes can use basic tools. That indicates that they can, at least, use basic weapons. Not getting into the issue of whether they deserve an Int of 2 or not, I think they're physically and mentally capable of basic weapon use. I'm sure it'd take some training, though. Something like animal companion is more likely to be receptive to this training than an ape you bought from Kalim the jungle-merchant. And a wild shaped druid should obviously be able to manage.
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for the anatomy argument, here's one of my favorites: have it sit and hold it. on a mount. no need to walk awkwardly.
wildshape into bear (or preferred mount based on level),
Have ape take mounted combat/spirited charge/lance prof.
buff like hell
???
Profit
its a real fun, non standard cavalier build.
Isn't there a race of intelligent winged apes in Golarion? If so then yes, Apes may uses weapons officially if they are smart enough to take the feat.
EDIT: Yep in J3: Crucible of Chaos, a race of flying apes called the Derhii.They use Javelins and falchions
... and I would assume they have upright humanoid anatomy, not gorilla anatomy. Hence their ability to use weapons effectively.
There are all sorts of anthropomorphic races, aren't there? The existence of weapon-using dog-men doesn't imply that a dog can wield a weapon.
Isn't there a race of intelligent winged apes in Golarion? If so then yes, Apes may uses weapons officially if they are smart enough to take the feat.
EDIT: Yep in J3: Crucible of Chaos, a race of flying apes called the Derhii.They use Javelins and falchions
... and I would assume they have upright humanoid anatomy, not gorilla anatomy. Hence their ability to use weapons effectively.
There are all sorts of anthropomorphic races, aren't there? The existence of weapon-using dog-men doesn't imply that a dog can wield a weapon.
Gorillas have been filmed using sticks to check water depth when they walk chest high in lakes. They hold the stick like you and I would hold a staff.
Gorillas have hands very, very similar to ours. Most importantly they have an opposable thumb which enables them to grip.Gorillas have been seen to use clubs and stones to bash things.
Anatomically there is nothing physically to stop a gorilla from making a bicycle and riding the thing. The only thing which stops this is its intelligence.
A Druid wildshaped into a gorilla can use weapons.
My next Druid definitely has AC Bear with a quarterstaff.
If my DM says "Bears can't use a quarterstaff" I'll show him ninja bear on youtube. ;)
(Above was tounge-in-cheek - but more seriously...)
However, it's worth noting that on real Earth, one major distinction beween humans and primates is the ability to use tools. More specifically, primates are physically capable of tool-use. They have hands, thumbs, arms, and binocular vision. However, they still don't use tools. Intellectually, they're not wired for it. Or evolved for it. Or whatever.
So no, I don't imagine a primate in Pathfinder should be any more capable of tool-use than a primate on Earth.
National Geographic reveals that Gorillas use tools
National Geographic reveals that Chimpanzees use tools (several different varieties) in hunting
And from Wikipedia:
Great apes are endowed with a semi-precision grip, and certainly have been able to use both simple tools and even weapons, by improvising a club from a convenient fallen branch.
Need more?
My next Druid definitely has AC Bear with a quarterstaff.
If my DM says "Bears can't use a quarterstaff" I'll show him ninja bear on youtube. ;)
(Above was tounge-in-cheek - but more seriously...)
However, it's worth noting that on real Earth, one major distinction beween humans and primates is the ability to use tools. More specifically, primates are physically capable of tool-use. They have hands, thumbs, arms, and binocular vision. However, they still don't use tools. Intellectually, they're not wired for it. Or evolved for it. Or whatever.
So no, I don't imagine a primate in Pathfinder should be any more capable of tool-use than a primate on Earth.
National Geographic reveals that Gorillas use tools
National Geographic reveals that Chimpanzees use tools (several different varieties) in hunting
And from Wikipedia:
Great apes are endowed with a semi-precision grip, and certainly have been able to use both simple tools and even weapons, by improvising a club from a convenient fallen branch.Need more?
This is good. Now, do we have evidence that they have the range of motion necessary to use weapons as effectively as humans, and to stand upright while doing so?
(BTW, I think the idea of a chimp using human weapons is a lot more realistic than a gorilla.)
A Druid wildshaped into a gorilla can use weapons.
Your houserule is greatly appreciated. I continue to solicit other opinions.
Isn't there a race of intelligent winged apes in Golarion? If so then yes, Apes may uses weapons officially if they are smart enough to take the feat.
EDIT: Yep in J3: Crucible of Chaos, a race of flying apes called the Derhii.They use Javelins and falchions
... and I would assume they have upright humanoid anatomy, not gorilla anatomy. Hence their ability to use weapons effectively.
There are all sorts of anthropomorphic races, aren't there? The existence of weapon-using dog-men doesn't imply that a dog can wield a weapon.
From the pic, no. They are apes with wings and weapons. They are not humans with an ape heads.
So officially if smart enough yep they can us weapons.
Simple and improvised weapons only, with a non-proficient penalty - they are physically capable, but not mentally skilled in it's use as anything more than a basic implement as opposed to trained combat use. Now, the Intelligent Apes that will appear in 4WFG's Tome of Monsters are another story.
Simple and improvised weapons only, with a non-proficient penalty - they are physically capable, but not mentally skilled in it's use as anything more than a basic implement as opposed to trained combat use. Now, the Intelligent Apes that will appear in 4WFG's Tome of Monsters are another story.You lying bastard ;]
Anyways, it's a fair analasys. The only thing I question is rejecting any marshal weapons, at the very least the Great Club is very much Ape-usable.
That's more of a "Should the GreatClub be a simple weapon" question than specific to the ape, though. And I tend to agree that it should be a martial weapon - the gunstock clubs of the Native American tribes were a precision crafted weapon with specific techniques for use, for example. It wasn't just a truncheon to smash with.
A Druid wildshaped into a gorilla can use weapons.Your houserule is greatly appreciated. I continue to solicit other opinions.
Perhaps the onus is on you to provide evidence for your stance?
A dozen posters have provided compelling evidence that a wildshaped Druid taking the form of a gorilla can use weapons.Quote: Now, do we have evidence that they have the range of motion necessary to use weapons as effectively as humans, and to stand upright while doing so?
What evidence can you provide saying they can't?
They taught Kanzi the bonobo to make stone knives. Not just use them as tools (which he can also do), but to actually craft them himself.
In 1999, a chimp named Imoso used a club to whallop another chimp. Within a few years, use of clubs was widespread among chimps in the area.
Applying a nonproficiency penalty is perfectly reasonable.
Requiring that a trick be spent on "Use Weapon" is perfectly reasonable.
Claiming that apes somehow cannot use tools and weapons is just plain wrong.
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Gah! Proven wrong by the PRD:
Feats: This is the total number of feats possessed by an animal companion. Animal companions should select their feats from those listed under Animal Feats. Animal companions can select other feats, although they are unable to utilize some feats (such as Martial Weapon Proficiency). Note that animal companions cannot select a feat with a requirement of base attack bonus +1 until they gain their second feat at 3 Hit Dice.
Apparently animal companions, by RAW, are not able to take weapon proficiency feats, regardless of intelligence. It appears that by RAW they would be able to use the weapon with the non-prof penalty, but could not get the proficiency for it. Personally, however, this is something that I would houserule in as long as the animal companion has an int >= 3.
I haven't looked at the video Treantmonk posted yet, but from my understanding, there is a huge difference between being able to hold an object, and use it effectively as a weapon.
This is based on the anatomy of the human hand (and perhaps some primates may have this as well). The opposable thumb is nice, and really helps when hitchhiking, but it is the "trigger grip" which allows humans such control over our hands. The "trigger grip" is the best way I can describe the way the fingers bend in different places - pinky tightest, then progressively less as you get to the middle finger. The pointer finger is highly sensitive, and can operate completely independently of the other digits. Sure, an ape can pick up a stick or rock, and whack another ape, but they aren't going to be spinning a sword around and slicing a "Z" with a rapier.
I say all weapons would be improvised in the hands of non-humanoids.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1571064/
See figure 3.
Maybe finesse weapons wouldn't be as effective, but Martial weapons can't just be ruled out, or are you saying it takes finesse to wield a greataxe?
However, it's worth noting that on real Earth, one major distinction beween humans and primates is the ability to use tools. More specifically, primates are physically capable of tool-use. They have hands, thumbs, arms, and binocular vision. However, they still don't use tools. Intellectually, they're not wired for it. Or evolved for it. Or whatever.
So no, I don't imagine a primate in Pathfinder should be any more capable of tool-use than a primate on Earth.
National Geographic reveals that Gorillas use tools
National Geographic reveals that Chimpanzees use tools (several different varieties) in hunting
And from Wikipedia:
Great apes are endowed with a semi-precision grip, and certainly have been able to use both simple tools and even weapons, by improvising a club from a convenient fallen branch.Need more?
That's all fine and dandy, but clearly those are exceptions.
I can point to Einstein as a human who is capable of calculating the finer points of Relativity. That doesn't mean that all humans can do it.
Obviously, if primates were really wired for tool-use, they would use them. You would see bands of gorillas in the mist, walking around with big old clubs they can use to fight rivals and drive off predators. But they don't. You see a band of gorillas wandering around, and they won't have anything in their hands. You see a band of gorillas surrounding a watering hole where a rival band of gorillas is currently splashing around, and neither band has weapons or tools. When the newcomers attack to drive off the rivals, it's natural weaponry, not tools, that are the weapons of choice.
Are there exceptions? Sure. Einstein was an exception too.
I'm not the guy saying they might be physically incapable of tool use. In fact, I said they are capable. I just said they're not wired for it, or evolved for it, to be their first choice over, well, not using tools.
As with most things, exceptions abound. But exceptions really don't invalidate the generality.
Maybe finesse weapons wouldn't be as effective, but Martial weapons can't just be ruled out, or are you saying it takes finesse to wield a greataxe?
I am not ruling anything out, but yes, the human would be much better at handling any weapon that isn't based on swinging from a tree. Two handed weapons are the perfect example. Grab your 2 handed sword, (or baseball bat), and hold it the way a chimp would, that is, with all of your fingertips on each hand lined up. If the bat were a tree branch, you would be hanging pretty. Now swing the bat around without bending your wrists. Now try hitting a few slow pitches without accidentally sending the bat flying. Not easy.
EDIT vvv vvv
Well I think that most of the arguments, and even the OP are actually discussing if an ape CAN wield weapons.
I would say the question is, "are primates physically capable of wielding weapons about as effectively as a human". I would say the answer is a clear no, but a GM could rule it anyway they saw fit.
Well I think that most of the arguments, and even the OP are actually discussing if an ape CAN wield weapons. Just because one can do it doesn't mean all of them can, but it does mean that the species is capable in exceptional circumstances. Yes, you're PC can lift half a ton but most commoners can't. Doesn't mean humans can't do it. Remember, most the time all PCs deal with are the exceptional and extraordinary.
You don't have to prove that every single member of a species is capable of something to prove that the species as a whole can do it.
The question wasn't "do 99.9% of them do it" or even 10% or 5%. It was whether or not they are capable of it.
Since them doing it isn't an isolated case (i.e. some genetic anomaly not common to the species) but rather various groups across the globes all exhibiting the behavior at one time or other it can safely be said that they Can do it.
Not every human can perform algebra in their head. Some can. As a species, we are capable of it.
-S
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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You can't stat bump int on an animal companion, unless you're bumping from Int 1 to Int 2.
Bestiary, page 307:
"Intelligence sscore of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal)."
This is best handled by just not allowing stat bumps to Int on animals with Int 2 at all, but in any case, if you bump it, it stops being an animal, so it also stop being a valid animal companion.
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You can't stat bump int on an animal companion, unless you're bumping from Int 1 to Int 2.
Bestiary, page 307:
"Intelligence sscore of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal)."This is best handled by just not allowing stat bumps to Int on animals with Int 2 at all, but in any case, if you bump it, it stops being an animal, so it also stop being a valid animal companion.
Actually the Druid's animal companion is specifically called out as breaking this rule. The animal does not gain sentience (AFAIK) and remains animal type, but becomes clever enough to use more advanced feats. Since the animal reverts if the Druid dies, this doesn't allow any other case of animal-types being smart.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Actually the Druid's animal companion is specifically called out as breaking this rule. The animal does not gain sentience (AFAIK) and remains animal type, but becomes clever enough to use more advanced feats. Since the animal reverts if the Druid dies, this doesn't allow any other case of animal-types being smart.
Fair enough. I'd expect it to be called out explictly rather than just as an incidental notes under Skills and Feats, but that does seem to cover it. Still seem like it ought to be mentioned under "Ability Score Increase" on page 53, since it breaks the rules for animals. Silly me, that's the header I checked before posting.
So yeah, an Int 3 ape could take martial weapon prof.
Maybe finesse weapons wouldn't be as effective, but Martial weapons can't just be ruled out, or are you saying it takes finesse to wield a greataxe?
To swing a greataxe wildly, no. To be able to swing it correctly, without getting unbalanced or knocking into things with the haft, to be able to control your trajectory, to utilize the backswing, to be able to put the edge roughly where you want it, takes training and practice. Hence the difference between proficiency and non-proficiency.
Great Apes use crude tools and weapons all the time in the wild. They can USE them, but they're not PROFICIENT with them, so they would get a -4 penalty. And that's completely appropriate.
I can point to Einstein as a human who is capable of calculating the finer points of Relativity. That doesn't mean that all humans can do it.
But humans are not gorillas and the relativity is not a stick. The levels of intelligence required and available in the population in the two cases are not comparable.
Primates do use tools regularily, depending on their particular culture. Weapons are rare, because ape societies do not need them much - if they can scare rivals by screaming and gesticulating, avoid predators by climbing a tree, and feed themselves with fruits, they're unlikely to use weapons, regardless of their "wirings".
Anyway, it takes an invention before a group use a particular tool. The fact that einstein theorized relativity during the 20th century does not indicate that humans were not wired for that until then.
On the contrary, see Kirth Gersen links. Once the invention happens, the widening use prove that they are wired for it.
EDIT: I was thinking about clubs, maces, maybe spears and quarterstaves. Ranged and bladed weapons seem out of their reach.
Yeah they are simply not here yet. Give them an AK 47 and show them how and they'll shoot you too.
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Without getting into the tangent that this thread is turning into, an ape can use a weapon provided he has A) Intelligence of 3+ B)the correct martial weapon proficiency.
Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using.
An ape is capable of holding on to a weapon. By this same note, you could give it light armor proficiency and have him wear a chain shirt too.
This is good. Now, do we have evidence that they have the range of motion necessary to use weapons as effectively as humans, and to stand upright while doing so?
(BTW, I think the idea of a chimp using human weapons is a lot more realistic than a gorilla.)
You suggested the anatomy of Gorillas was inappropriate for using weapons. When you said that I'm guessing you weren't expecting someone to show evidence that real world Gorillas have been observed using weapons.
Are you really now asking if a study has been done to determine if a Gorilla uses a weapon as well as a human? Or are you just raising the bar to a level you can be comfortable will not be challenged?
Obviously, nobody is going to have compared the proficiency of weapons in the hands of Gorillas with weapons in the hands of humans, so your question has no answer.
That's all fine and dandy, but clearly those are exceptions.
At the Zoo in the primates exhibit one of the staff was explaining to my daughter how they have these plastic feeding tubes, and the gorillas have to use narrow sticks to puncture the bag through a small hole to get at the food (kind of an ape puzzle). That is tool use.
They would be a bunch of hungry gorillas if they all had to be Einsteins to figure out how to use the stick.
You are speaking about variations that are truly exceptional. I'm sure some gorillas are born with six fingers, but I don't think you are going to find a wikipedia article saying that Gorillas have six fingers, but there is one saying that, "Gorillas are now known to use tools in the wild" This suggests to me that it's not wildly exceptional for a gorilla to use a tool.
Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that Gorillas are "not wired" to use tools?
Actually the Druid's animal companion is specifically called out as breaking this rule. The animal does not gain sentience (AFAIK) and remains animal type, but becomes clever enough to use more advanced feats. Since the animal reverts if the Druid dies, this doesn't allow any other case of animal-types being smart.
This is best handled by just not allowing stat bumps to Int on animals with Int 2 at all, but in any case, if you bump it, it stops being an animal, so it also stop being a valid animal companion.
As you point out the animal companion become intelligent enough to use "more advanced feats". I suppose that includes Simple/Martial/Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
I would not hesitate to let an animal companion wield weapons. Apes have it the most easy due to the fact that they have actual hands. But even other animals should be able to do so at the discretion of the GM.Birds with spears (like the 3.5 FR aarakokra does), octopi with tentacle extensions (like a grill), dinosaurs and crocodiles with tail weapons, elephants with tusk spikes (as in Return of the King) and or even tigers with battle claw extensions.
I do not see the rules in any way prohibit this. For gorillas this lies in the realm of plausibility and for other animal companions it is in that of imagination.
I am personally looking forward to our party's druid suiting up his ape to look like a general from Planet of the Apes.