|
Do paladin and cleric levels stack with regard to the number of D6 for positive energy burst or LOH? I realize you have to keep the LOH, which are .5 of an energy burst, and the full cleric bursts tracked separately, just wondered if the power of each of them stacked. For example, there is a 4th level cleric/3rd level paladin, would he have 4d6 for LOH and energy bursts, or would he have 2d6 clerical energy bursts and 2d6 LOH? An official ruling would be great or a link to this answer if it has come up before, otherwise outside opinions would be appreciated so I can come to a decision about whether to house rule them stacking or not.
Sadly, no. They should tho IMO. Maybe a houserule feat will help you. Ask your DM, explaining your character concept and maybe he/she'll be sympathetic.
There are plenty of (3.5) precedents that allow you to stack different class abilities, Daring Outlaw, Aescetic Mage, etc.
|
|
I should have said, I am the DM, just wondering how deadly my anti-paladin of Zon-Kuthon is going to be. Frankly, they party doesn't need to know why he can channel smite for 4d6 instead of 2d6 if I did it that way, however, I try to be consistent for the sake of sanity when possible.
Also, I have a cleric who wants to fight more, and may switch over, so I figured I would do some hard research/opinion gathering so I could make a ruling.
Answering both as a DM and as a player who has played the cleric/paladin concept before (though not in PF), I would keep the LoH and Channel uses seperate, but I would see no problem with the amount of channeled energy stacking between the two classes. It would seem to make sense from the perspective of knowing two different ways to channel the "loving caress" of your BBEG's God.
It's not really written that way in the literal RAW, but under the specific circumstance, I would handle it similarly to a cleric entering into a prestige class that also grants the channel energy ability.
I would say they do stack, considering in every other instance of identically named class abilities, they do stack. If you're a Rogue 5/Assassin 3 you don't sneak attack for 3d6 or 2d6 you get the full 5d6.
Its the same with paladin and cleric its both channel energy, and in the description of Channel Energy it says that the paladin uses it at "Her Effective Cleric Level" and of course effective levels and actual levels stack. If you want to be TOO specific that would mean that cleric levels stack for LoH but paladin levels don't for cleric channels.
No, sorry but the reason a Rogue 5/Assassin 3 has sneak attack +5d6 is because both classes grant sneak attack and the Assassin entry for sneak attack specifically states: If an assassin gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack.
As I pointed out both have Channel Positive Energy, Paladin channel "specifically states;" that paladin level is an effective cleric level so by RAW, and even by your own logic, they would stack.
Do you add the levels of Druid and Ranger to determine the abilities of your companion? They both have it and the Ranger entry says that it's effective Druid level is Ranger lvl -3.
It doesn't say that it stacks so it doesn't.
However, you would get LoH uses/day which allows you to channel. Plus you get channel/day from Cleric. So you could do it more often. But not more damage per use.
Are you suggesting that you get more uses/day + more damage per use?
Tanis has a good point.
The mechanics on how they work between the cleric and paladin classes are different. The cleric simply gets so many uses per day. The paladin has to drop two Lay on Hands to use it. It would be difficult to arrange a method in which the amount of damage stacks without making the paladin/cleric combo a far more better channeler than either a straight cleric or a straight paladin.
Tanis has a good point.
The mechanics on how they work between the cleric and paladin classes are different. The cleric simply gets so many uses per day. The paladin has to drop two Lay on Hands to use it. It would be difficult to arrange a method in which the amount of damage stacks without making the paladin/cleric combo a far more better channeler than either a straight cleric or a straight paladin.
Actually, a cleric/paladin combo would be better than a cleric at channeling energy, but their LoH would be much worse than a straight paladin.
LoH is a swift action to cast on yourself + mercies, make LoH better than channel energy in a lot of cases.
No class abilities stacks unless specially stated!
|
There are plenty of (3.5) precedents that allow you to stack different class abilities, Daring Outlaw, Aescetic Mage, etc.
^ This.
No, they don't stack by RAW, but since you're the GM, just make a homebrew feat that allows them to stack using those feats as precedent. Just be sure to allow the players to take it if they insist on reverse engineering the BBEG's stats.
Or, you could simply allow them to stack, and attribute it to a special blessing from Zon-Kuthon specifically for this character. You're the GM, do whatever you want. :)
Do you add the levels of Druid and Ranger to determine the abilities of your companion?
Yes, per this statement in the Druid class abilities entry under Animal Companions:
Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
regardless of wether or not they would normally stack, the levels in this case should not stack since the paladin does not have any channel ability yet at 3rd level.
After 4th lvl I suppose you can allow them to stack if you are willing to burn both LoH and a channel energy for it in the same action.
regardless of wether or not they would normally stack, the levels in this case should not stack since the paladin does not have any channel ability yet at 3rd level.
After 4th lvl I suppose you can allow them to stack if you are willing to burn both LoH and a channel energy for it in the same action.
Actually that is the best solution I have heard. It allows a pally/cleric to not be gimped when they channel, but they won't have an insane number of channels per day.
A pally/cleric can stack their cleric and pally levels for purposes of the amount of healing or damage done by their channel, but it costs them use 2 uses of channel energy(or 4 uses of LoH or some combination there of).
I'm a little disappointed at the wording here. But yes, cleric Channel Energy is a cleric class ability tied closely to cleric levels and only cleric levels. Using this ability doesn't reference paladin levels as effective cleric levels. Only the paladin ability -- Channel Positive Energy -- does that.
When using the paladin class ability Channel Positive Energy, the paladin's level is used exclusively to determine the power of the ability -- even if the ability references "effective cleric levels", it still only looks at class levels relevant to the ability (in this case, paladin levels).
Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.
I completely understand the confusion of not referencing "paladin levels" when talking about Channel Positive Energy -- it just says "her level". But it really means class levels in the paladin class.
|
|
One of the reasons I am asking is that I was using an automated character sheet to create this particular NPC, and it stacked paladin levels with the cleric levels to determine HD of the energy burst, which surprised me. Made me wonder if I was doing it wrong keeping them completely separate, which also led me to wonder if a house rule would be in order, since to me, it sort of makes sense for a paladin and cleric to be stackable. Of course, the same issue would face a ranger/druid stacked character regarding Animal companions. I am thinking of maybe counting every 2 paladin levels as a cleric level or something, or adding a feat similar to practiced spellcaster to handle this issue.
As others said, unfortunately they do not stack. They did stack in 3.5, but they did not get additional uses then.
I like remco's idea of using both simultaneously - that's brilliant.
Of course, the same issue would face a ranger/druid stacked character regarding Animal companions.
Note that ranger/druid/cleric w/ Animal domain levels do stack with regard to animal companions. See the Class Level entry under Animal Companions noted above...
I don't recall if I have cleric and paladin levels stacking at present in my character sheet, but my guess is that they are since it is built from my 3.5 sheet. I'll have to check on that...
EDIT: Confirmed I have them stacking in my character sheet. Also, it reminded me that there is a class that stacks levels with paladin and cleric for determining channel energy/lay on hands effects--an Order of the Star cavalier. The wording ("In addition, the cavalier adds 1/2 his cavalier level to any levels of paladin or cleric he might possess for the purposes of determining the effects of channel energy or lay on hands.") leads me to believe that perhaps Paizo does intend the classes to stack for effect but not uses per day (which is how I have it coded right now--uses/day is tied to cleric levels only). If not, I'll have to do some mental gymnastics to code a cleric/paladin/cavalier...
/begin threadjack
Slightly off topic question, by the RAW can a pally/cleric use LOH uses per day to power their cleric channel energy or vice versa?
Example: Can a Pally 4/Cleric 9 burn 2 uses of LoH to heal for 5d6? Can a Cleric 1/Pally 9 use one of the cleric channel energy uses to channel for 5d6?
/end threadjack
I can't see how they could stack. The Paladin has to use LoH that takes and Action the Cleric has to use an action to do it as well.
Now I could see the cleric level stack for the LoH but cleric channel would not add the paladin levels. But if this were intended it would say so. I'd house rule this however in my game.
|
|
I realize that a paladins LOH are a separate thing from clerics channelings per day, so I planned to keep them separate, mainly because the RAW do not present an elegant way to combine these. I am of the opinion that they should stack somehow though, so perhaps some opinions on one of the following three options:
Cleric/paladin levels stack regarding # of d6 for:
1) both LOH and cleric channeling abilities
2) just cleric channeling and not LOH
3) just LOH and not cleric channeling
I am "trolling" for thoughts on game balance regarding the level stacking.
In my opinion (although not necessarily according to RAW):
Number of d6 for Channel Positive Energy stacks.
You can choose whether to spend 1 cleric use or 2 lay on hands uses each time you use the Channel Positive Energy ability.
The number of d6 for Lay on Hands is a separate ability, and does not increase with cleric levels.
That's how I intend to rule for my games, if it ever comes up.
The 'problem' with letting them stack is that the cleric/paladin is getting more channels per day than a straight cleric or straight paladin would, in addition to getting the full channel damage/healing.
Examples (lets assume 16 Cha for all characters either due to high ability score or magic items):
Cleric 10: 5d6, 6 channels/day; max damage 180, avg damage 105
Paladin 10: 5d6, up to 4 channels/day (total of 8 LoHs per day); max damage 120, avg damage 70
Cleric 5/Paladin 5 (channel stacking): 6d6, 6/day from cleric, up to 2/day from Paladin; max damage 288, avg damage 168
Cleric 5/Paladin 5 (channel not stacking): 3d6, 6/day from cleric; 3d6, up to 2/day from Paladin; max damage 144, avg damage 84
So it seems pretty clear that letting the damage stack as well as letting the uses draw from two separate pools of resources results in a significant boost. Whereas by not letting it stack, it can still draw from two separate pools of resources to reach a similar result; in this case, somewhat better than the straight paladin but not quite as good as a straight cleric.
I'll grant that the arbitrarily chosen level of 10 and arbitrarily chosen split of 5/5 results in a slight boost to the cleric/paladin, as each class is getting the benefit of an odd level boost to its channel ability. If the top level were 12 and the split were 6/6, the cross-class build would not be getting such a benefit; the straight builds would be doing 6d6 and the cross class builds would be providing 3d6 and 3d6. Still, any split resulting in odd numbers for the classes will reach this result.
Oh what the hell, I'll post some numbers anyways:
Cleric 12: 6d6, 6 channels/day; max damage 216, avg damage 126
Paladin 12: 6d6, up to 4 channels/day (total of 9 LoHs per day); max damage 144, avg damage 84
Cleric 6/Paladin 6 (channel stacking): 6d6, 6/day from cleric, up to 2/day from Paladin; max damage 288, avg damage 168
Cleric 6/Paladin 6 (channel not stacking): 3d6, 6/day from cleric; 3d6, up to 2/day from Paladin; max damage 144, avg damage 84
Even here, where the straight builds are benefiting more from the level structure, letting the channels stack results in a significant advantage.
Where the benefit really shows up though is when you consider a high Paladin/low Cleric build, such as Paladin 11/Cleric 1. If stacking is permitted, it basically sacrifices a level of Paladin for an extra pool of channeling (6 extra uses over Paladin 12).
What Father Dale said: Letting them stack at no cost would be a /huge/ benefit. [except the Cleric6/Pal6 would have up to 3/day from Paladin].
Worse example, a one level dip in cleric:
Cleric 10: 5d6, 6 channels/day; max damage 180, avg damage 105
Cleric 1/Paladin 9: 6d6, 6/day cleric, 3/day Paladin; max damage 324, avg damage 189
Do you add the levels of Druid and Ranger to determine the abilities of your companion? They both have it and the Ranger entry says that it's effective Druid level is Ranger lvl -3.
It doesn't say that it stacks so it doesn't.
However, you would get LoH uses/day which allows you to channel. Plus you get channel/day from Cleric. So you could do it more often. But not more damage per use.
Are you suggesting that you get more uses/day + more damage per use?
This is why I ban multiclassing...
|
Empowered Channeling
Prereq: Channel Energy from two classes
Effect: Any time you channel energy, you may spend a use from both of your classes to roll both sets of d6s in one channel. For example, a 4th level Paladin/4th level Cleric could spend two uses of Lay on Hands and one use of Channel Energy to roll 4d6 instead of 2d6. When you activate this feat, the DC to resist your channeled energy is increased by 2.
What Father Dale said: Letting them stack at no cost would be a /huge/ benefit. [except the Cleric6/Pal6 would have up to 3/day from Paladin].
Worse example, a one level dip in cleric:
Cleric 10: 5d6, 6 channels/day; max damage 180, avg damage 105
Cleric 1/Paladin 9: 6d6, 6/day cleric, 3/day Paladin; max damage 324, avg damage 189
I always did take the meaning of stacking, stacking effective cleric levels for the effect, so a paladin 9, cleric 1 would channel as a 10th level cleric not by simply adding the dice together.
The main bother is managing the number of uses, the only way I can see to make them stack smoothly without a huge advantage is by burning 2 uses of LoH and 1 channel energy to combine the effective cleric levels, though it is far from elegant it is the most workable way without making major adjustments.
I think cleric levels would stack but Paladin level would not stack with with cleric level.
So when you channel energy as cleric you can't added you paladin level. But if you use LOH to channel energy you Paladin level is your effective cleric level. So in this case cleric level plus cleric level would stack.
So Pal6/Cl6 would cleric level 6 for Channel Energy and Cleric Level 12 for LOH used to channel energy. That's due to you Paladin Level counting cleric levels for purposes of Channeling energy. When you channel energy using the Cleric power you don't have that reverse synergy going on.
I think cleric levels would stack but Paladin level would not stack with with cleric level.
So when you channel energy as cleric you can't added you paladin level. But if you use LOH to channel energy you Paladin level is your effective cleric level. So in this case cleric level plus cleric level would stack.
So Pal6/Cl6 would cleric level 6 for Channel Energy and Cleric Level 12 for LOH used to channel energy. That's due to you Paladin Level counting cleric levels for purposes of Channeling energy. When you channel energy using the Cleric power you don't have that reverse synergy going on.
so what you are saying.. actual cleric levels should stack with effective cleric levels, but effective cleric levels should not stack with actual cleric levels ? lol sorry, but that doesnt make sense at all =p
it might be the other way around too.. it goes either way or it doesnt.
The 'problem' with letting them stack is that the cleric/paladin is getting more channels per day than a straight cleric or straight paladin would, in addition to getting the full channel damage/healing.
I don't see how that is a problem. Since the character is multiclassing cleric and paladin, he's losing spell levels (as opposed to full cleric) and high-level paladin-powers (as opposed to full paladin). So, just because he may have become a channel-energy-master, the character would still have lost quite a lot of power overall.