Yes I read what Stephane said. Look at the 3.0 Paldin and look at the 3.5 Paladin and look at the Beta Paladin. What the heck is wrong with the new Paladin after Jason's nerf?
The paladin is still a strong viable class after the nerf. I feel that it was not necessary because it was balanced with the other classes before. I can not seem to find it but someone went through a lot of hard work and effort to create a graph that shows the damage of the paladin compaired with a couple other classes (maybe just fighter, cant remember). This graph showed that without smite the paladin was severely out classed in the damage department. With Smite he broke even and only pulled ahead when he was smithing the iconic baddies.
My biggest concern is that this will not be the end. Once Smite has been properly nerfed (probably taking away the AC bonus and the bypassing DR)someone will complain about another aspect of the paladin. Next it may be Lay on Hands as a swift heal if done on the paladin, or the change to detect evil... who knows, but that seems to be the norm of what happens to the paladin.
If the paladin is better in every aspect for fighting evil, then there's no point in playing a fighter in 90% of campaigns.
I disagree with you for a few reasons, many of which you mentioned in your last paragraph.
First one reason people play a fighter over a paladin is because the fighter is not restricted like the paladin is. No LG allignment, no code of conduct or loose all your goodies and also... no "I can only do good damage against evil a few times a day."
Second, there are plenty of threads throughout these boards that ask "what is the composition of your gaming group" or other questions like it. The majority of those groups have a fighter but only a few have a paladin. There must be some reason that people are playing the fighter more frequently than the paladin.
Lastly, your last paragraph stats many different things the fighter can do because of his "crappy" feats. I am sorry but I do not see having the option to build my character in any way without restrictions as a weakness of the class. Through feats and weapon training the fighter gets a bonus of +7 to hit and +9 damage on every single attack he does, no matter who he is facing and for as many times as he swings that weapon each day.
I am not saying, nor have I ever said that this is not the way it should be. I love that the fighter finally has a place to shine and things he is good at! My issue is that people keep throwing the fighter out there like he is some sort of bastard son of a three legged mule and we should weaken the paladin because we feel bad for the fighter "screw that". The fighter is awesome at what he does, if you dont feel that way dont play a fighter but dont try to use what you feel are weaknesses of the fighter as ammunition to reduce the paladin.
I disagree with you for a few reasons, many of which you mentioned in your last paragraph.If the paladin is better in every aspect for fighting evil, then there's no point in playing a fighter in 90% of campaigns.
If the paladin is better in every aspect for fighting evil? If you mean that the paladin is better in every aspect I too have to disagree with you. In our new campaign the tank is a fighter and he is really good. The fact that you build a fighter so he can pick any feat he wants later on make the fighter a very flexible class.
Since Paladins have to boost both char and str they tend to dump wis and int and dex. Me, I never dump int. I hate it. I guess playing a human Paladin you could dump int to 7. You still get 3 skill points per level if you use the Fav. Class points.15 PB Paladin
Str 17, dex 10, con 12, int 10, wis 7, char 16
15 PB Fighter
str 17, dex 13, con 12, int 13, wis 10, char 7
BTW for those out there who say Paladin are a MAD class....Oh I can't even bother saying something clever or mean.
The fact that a fighter is based on feats and can change feats mean he can afford to pick utility feats and even feats like skill focus.
The fighter is som much more versetile than the Paladin and as a fighter you don't have to "save your smites" to later on.
As Vult pointed out. The fighter's attack and damage bonus is always on.
As for Disruptive/Spellbreaker. We've found out that Step up is a great feat. Our fighter has it so does the monk.
My point is that The combination of Disruptive/Spellbreaker + Step up (+ Combat Reflexes) is very nice.
Me, I still wish they create a feat that gives fighters iterative attacks at higher levels, even if that ability can only be used a number of times per day equal to 3 + your strength modifier. ;-)
And monk need some help with flurry during the standard action.
If someone should really be crying it's the barbarian. She was really hit by the nerf bat during the Beta test.
But we just have to wait. The Advanced Players Guide will be out in august.
My biggest concern is that this will not be the end. Once Smite has been properly nerfed (probably taking away the AC bonus and the bypassing DR)someone will complain about another aspect of the paladin. Next it may be Lay on Hands as a swift heal if done on the paladin, or the change to detect evil... who knows, but that seems to be the norm of what happens to the paladin.
Edit:
Again. You don't seem to trust Jason, do you?To be honest. I think this is the only nerf we will see.
Me, I would like them to nerf the smite some more or the Aura of Justice. But nerfing them both and LoH? It's not going to happen.
As for the "This graph showed that without smite the paladin was severely out classed in the damage department"
My 15 PB examples of Fighter and Paladin both have 17 str. At every 4 levels they boost their str. So the same str as a fighter. Then the Paladin have divine bond, all his spells and his smite and channel energy and all other ablities. And with all the bonus to saves and imunities he is not going to lose his will saves. As Stéphane Le Roux pointed out:
"When the fighter fails a Willpower save against hold person, dominate or glitterdust, he deals no damage"
That's why I will would give my fighter 12 wisdom and I always advice inexperienced players to give their fighter 12 wisdom since will saves is the fighter really weak spot. This would actually mean the Paladin would start with a higher str score than the fighter.
Also the fighter actually could need a higher con score, but they can't have it all so they have to trust the healer or potions. Using potions in battle is not fun when the enemy has Step up or reach.
The Paladin is far from severely out classed in the damage department.
And truth be told, how many meaningful encounters do you have per day?
As for the "not all foes are evil". That's just crap. Most of them are, and those who are not are usually summons (summoned by the evil spellcaster), animals, vermin and magical beasts. At higher levels most foes will be evil. Evil outsiders, undeads, evil spellcasters and some evil dragons.
Edit:
....."that seems to be the norm of what happens to the paladin"?
Jason did a very moderate change to the smite and your calling this a norm? You should really cut out the Hyperbole
I want to know what modules people are using to determine the paladin is not too powerful. What are the opinions of DM's using pathfinder modules? Is the paladin standing out consistantly above everyone else in the party?
Yes it's off topic.
A 3.5 level 20 cleric had 7 feats.
A level 20 Pathfinder cleric has 10 feats. Spend a feat and you have heavy armor proficiency.
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I want to know what modules people are using to determine the paladin is not too powerful. What are the opinions of DM's using pathfinder modules? Is the paladin standing out consistantly above everyone else in the party?
Had a paladin in my council of thieves game Have to say the only time smite ever got out of hand was the final game where he used that aura (name escapes me right now) to give all the party save 1 the ability to smite Besides that the fighter was pretty much always outdoing him in damage or equalling him at worst.
Not got the time right now to get into specific builds but it was a Human fighter that wore breastplate and wielded a bastard sword two-handed and the paladin was a Tiefling (one of the variant ones) Sword and board in full plate
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Yes it's off topic.
A 3.5 level 20 cleric had 7 feats.
A level 20 Pathfinder cleric has 10 feats. Spend a feat and you have heavy armor proficiency.
Heh, I was just trying to derail this dead thread by recalling another fruitless beat-the-dead-horse deabte we had some time ago, but it looks like you guys are still jumpy :)
Yes it's off topic.
A 3.5 level 20 cleric had 7 feats.
A level 20 Pathfinder cleric has 10 feats. Spend a feat and you have heavy armor proficiency.Heh, I was just trying to derail this dead thread by recalling another fruitless beat-the-dead-horse deabte we had some time ago, but it looks like you guys are still jumpy :)
LOL. Thanks for enlightening me!
I might as well read a good book. :-)
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I want to know what modules people are using to determine the paladin is not too powerful. What are the opinions of DM's using pathfinder modules? Is the paladin standing out consistantly above everyone else in the party?
The Paladin shines a lot at the end of CotCT, especially Scarwall, but, well, that's
Edit:
....."that seems to be the norm of what happens to the paladin"?
Jason did a very moderate change to the smite and your calling this a norm? You should really cut out the Hyperbole
Here I have to appologize. I did not mean to say it was a norm for the paladin to be nerfed. I meant to say it was a norm for someone to complain about one thing after the other.
I see a lot of complaints about Aura of Justice and with that one I have to agree. I have not played a paladin at this level to see how devastating this ability could be, but it just seems insanely powerful. If anything this is the ability that should have got the nerf, not smite. If this ability was reduced to a few rounds (maybe rounds =ing the paladin's char bonus) instead of a minute, then it would have been more viable.
Edit:
....."that seems to be the norm of what happens to the paladin"?
Jason did a very moderate change to the smite and your calling this a norm? You should really cut out the HyperboleHere I have to appologize. I did not mean to say it was a norm for the paladin to be nerfed. I meant to say it was a norm for someone to complain about one thing after the other.
I see a lot of complaints about Aura of Justice and with that one I have to agree. I have not played a paladin at this level to see how devastating this ability could be, but it just seems insanely powerful. If anything this is the ability that should have got the nerf, not smite. If this ability was reduced to a few rounds (maybe rounds =ing the paladin's char bonus) instead of a minute, then it would have been more viable.
Edit.
I agree, some complain about one thing after the other, but they are not the norm and I don't think Jason will listen to them. Jason is as smart person with a mind of his own.If Jason is going to nerf the Paladin more, which I don't think he will, he only need to make a small adjustment.
As for the Aura of Justice.
At level 11 rounds = the paladin's char bonus is at least 5 rounds and thats more or less the whole fight.
Anyway I'm fine with the current Paladin. I still think the barbarian needs a boost and I'm hoping the APG will add some options to the Bard, Monk and Fighter.
It's a lot of time that i don't use the forum, can someone point me where i can find new rules about paladins? I read something about a nerf, and i'd like to find something about. Tnks.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Double thread necro. Check the prd. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/
Paladins no longer get double smite damage on every attack against evil undead, dragons etc. Just on the first attack:
If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses.
Ok tnks, it was already this way when i started to play, so it doesn't change for me :) Btw, i still think it's too powerful, specially in case of summons (dire celestial tiger, wtf :D ). Now i use this, instead of 1xliv is 1/2x liv + cha bonus. Useful at low levels, not broken at high. Notice that we don't play with much magic items, actually we don't use even standard magic items rules, so it's not possible to have and insane cha bonus. Same for cavalier challenge.