Oddwes wrote: I see your points Seeker. But it is only the one spell that is not right (mage armor) as it is a Conj spell. The +'s to BAB and spell casting every level has several precidents and the bonuses that you get at each level really dont add that much. I know I just took it real far by going with a huge Dex and the Twilight Celestial Full Plate becase I wanted to be a Tank becase of my AC with a descent gun from my weapon and spells. What it adds up to is why stay a full wizard? At 10th level why not deep for 5 levels and gain +5 cl and +5 BAB on top of some sweet ability.
Your a dope if your an elf and don't do this.
Way, way two good.
kenmckinney wrote:
Do you have a rule to cite for this? What makes it the case that Elves get their weapon proficiencies without having a racial hit die, but Tieflings don't?
Ken
I'll have to look it up but yes that is official as has been stated about 10 times now. Elf's weapons are not based off the subtype.
Also page 264 of the bestiary also page 7. It says what traits they have by race.
Tieflings as PCs
That is all they get as a PC race. Gaining the ENTIRE martial list is a bit different than bows, rapier and long sword
daverius wrote: Hey everyone,
I was interested in making an eldritch knight and wanted to hear some suggestions.
Gonna go with the 20 point build.
Here's what I was thinking.
Human (+2 int)
Stats:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, int 16, wis 10, cha 10
Level 1: ftr 1
Feats: Shield focus, improved shield bash, dodge
Level 2: ftr1/wiz1
Spells to be picked would be buffs and battle control spells
Level 3: ftr1/wiz2
Feat: The arcane failure reducing feat.
Will take wizard levels until eldritch knight is available.
The idea is to use the shield as my weapon (and defense) and keep the other hand free to cast spells.
I do not know which school to specalize in or what spells to select, or what other feats to take.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be great.
First, let me say that I'm a big fan of EK builds, so if this turns into a Wall of Text, I apologize in advance. I just really like discussing them. A couple of points:
1. I like your stats, tho I'm a little biased because they're what I go with as well. :)
2. Using your shield as your weapon is a pretty interesting idea. Difficult to pull off, tho, especially at lower levels.
3. If you want a bonded item, consider a gauntlet or spiked gauntlet. It can still be sundered, altho this is pretty rare, and it can't be disarmed. It also doesn't interfere with wielding a weapon or shield in the same hand, or with casting spells. It really is an optimal choice.
4. I recommend Diviner as your wizard specialty. The initiative bonus and ability to always act in a surprise round is a huge advantage.
5. The traits Magical Knack and Reactive are very good choices. MK is pretty much a "must have."
6. Craft: Armor is a skill you'll want to have. Being able to craft your own Mithril armor at 1/3 the cost means you get to have it much earlier. This is another big plus, assuming the DM is willing to give you enough down time. If he or she will let you craft before play (so you can start with better armor than you otherwise could) then mores the better.
7. Spell (and feat) selection depends a lot upon your expected role in the party and how you like to play. Could you maybe discuss what kind of play you enjoy? Do you prefer to act primarily as a Wizard? Or do you want to mix it up in melee (or ranged) combat?
Despite what cold napalm saves your ac doesn't have to suck, the OP mentioned a shield. go mithral buckler (no asf)
example AC
10+ 5(dex bonus+item) +8(Bracers)+5(Amulet of Natural Armor)+ 5(ring of protection)+ 1(mithral buckler)+5(shield enhancement)= 39
that's just using 14 dex and gear, no actual armor...
though on a quickend Displacement (or Blacklight) and your pretty sweet!
Here's a build I'm using:
STR 15, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 15, WIS 10, CHA 9. +2 to STR (Human)
Reactive, Magical Knack
Ftr 1: Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Falchion, Imp. Init
Wiz 1: Transmute School. Bonus goes to STR. Divination and Abjuration opposed schools. Sell studded leather, cast Mage Armor, strap on buckler after casting. Accept 1 in 20 chance of a spell botch for Grease or Sleep or Enlarge Person.
Wiz 2: Arcane Strike. BAB +2
Wiz 3: Blindness becomes a popular spell.
Wiz 4: Either Still Spell or Arcane Armor Training. BAB +3. STR +1. Trasmuter bonus goes to CON.
Wiz 5: Either Extend Spell or Ench. Wpn/Armor. Transmuter Bonus becomes +2, goes to DEX. Haste becomes a popular spell.
ElK 1: Dodge (ElK), Shield Focus (Standard). Might take Toughess instead of Shield Focus. BAB +4
ElK 2: INT +1 BAB +5
ELK 3: Weapon Specialization: Falchion. BAB +6
ELK 4: Combat Feat. Possibly Lunge.
INT gets all the stat bumps from here on out. While caster comes first, combat is impressive - especially at lower levels. At 3rd level, character is hitting at 2+4+1-1 for +6, and does 2d4+6+3+1, critting on an 18+. Hitting on a +6 isn't bad; the fighter is likely hitting on +8, and doing comparable damage.
Spells will largely be chosen for "Lasts a long time" and "World doesn't end if I blow arcane spell fail check". Much use of Scribe Scroll likely.
kenmckinney wrote: seekerofshadowlight wrote: kenmckinney wrote: Why don't you play a tiefling? They get proficiency with all martial weapons, so you won't even need a Fighter level.
Ken
No they do not gain any martial weapons from race as they do not have racial HD, just like they also do not gain racial skill points,feats or HP without racial HD Do you have a rule to cite for this? What makes it the case that Elves get their weapon proficiencies without having a racial hit die, but Tieflings don't?
Ken Elves don't get "all martial proficiencies" they get specific ones as listed in thier race description. Elves get thier proficiencies by RAW, you're giving them to Tieflings based on an invalid chain of assumptions.
Ardenup wrote: Despite what cold napalm saves your ac doesn't have to suck, the OP mentioned a shield. go mithral buckler (no asf)
example AC
10+ 5(dex bonus+item) +8(Bracers)+5(Amulet of Natural Armor)+ 5(ring of protection)+ 1(mithral buckler)+5(shield enhancement)= 39
that's just using 14 dex and gear, no actual armor...
though on a quickend Displacement (or Blacklight) and your pretty sweet!
And at WHAT level do you get all that? And considering that as a fighter wizard you need to spend money on spells AND fighting gear, comparing the bracers and +6 dex item cost to just straight mithril breastplate becomes less tempting. The money issues is not as bad for a fighter/sorcerer however. And besides which 14 dex isn't "low" dex. I have no issue with 14 dex...that comment was to a poster who suggested 10 dex. Which with all the gear you mentioned makes it not so bad...but at lower levels, it's bad...oh so very bad.
Hey everyone. Thanks for the advice and this was an interesting debate. I like the recommendations, such as the mounted eldritch knight etc. I don't think I will be going with a shield build. It sounded neat, but it probably wouldn't work out for the best.
I don't think EK would be useless. I think they look pretty decent. Anyways, I thought we could make some builds and compare. A straight fighter, a straight mage vs an EK build.
We can do it at Level 5, 10, 15, and 20.
20 point buy PF core rules.
GP values for gear are: 2400, 10050, 34800, and 123000 respectively.
Max hit points at 1st level: 1/2 Die +1 hit point thereafter; Example fighters get 6 hit points + con per level. Mages get 4+1 con per level.
I'll start with a level 5 EK path build. I'm not very good at this.
Human Fighter 1/Wiz 4
N medium Humanoid (Human +2 int)
Int+6
Senses: Perception+5
Defense
AC 16 (+4 mage armor,+2 dex)17 (with aburjation special ability)
HP: 37
Fort+6, Ref+4, Will+5
Offense:
+1 long +7 19-20x2 1d8+4 (twohanded)
w/ bulls str+arcane strike
+1 long sword +9 19-20 x2, 1d8+9 (twohanded)
touch attacks +5
Spells:ulimited/4+1/3+1
0-touch of fatigue, detect magic, read magic, ghost sound
1-Grease (DC14), shield, mage armor, truestrike x2
2-mirror image x2, protection from arrows, bulls strength
Statsitics:
Str 14, dex 14, con 14, int 17, wis 10, cha 10
Base attack +3, CMB +5, CMD+7
Skills:
Ride +10, Craft armor +11, Craft weapons+11, Perception+5, Survival+4, Climb+4, Handle animal+6, Spellcraft+11
Feats: improved int, power attack, weapon focus longsword, arcane strike
Resist energy 5
Protective ward 10 ft, +1 AC 3 rounds, 6/day
Gear: Ring of resistance+1, +1long Sword
Elven Wizard 5 / Fighter 1 / EK 10 / Wizard 3 / Fighter 1
Using 20pb
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 17
Wis 10
Cha 8
At lvl 20
Str 30 (14 + 5 lvl + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement)
Dex 22 (16 + 6 enhancement)
Con 18 (12 + 6 enhancement)
Int 28 (17 + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement)
Wis 10
Cha 8
Use Greater Heroism, Greater Magic Weapon before combat, and Giant Form 2, Haste in the first round of combat.
Your attack, using a ECB, will be:
16 base + 14 str + 5 magic weapon + 4 G.Heroism + 2 G.Weapon Focus -2 Size + 1 Haste = +40 / +40 / +35 / +30 / +25
And your damage: 3d8 + 21 str + 5 magic + 4 W.Esp. avg 43.5
you can use P.Attack for another 15 points and -5 attack.
Your CA will be:
10 base +11 armor +5 dex +4 shield +5 deflection +11 natural +1 luck = 47
The only feat you need is Praticied Spellcaster from the completes series, all the other stuff is PFRPG core only.
Your DC of spell's are 10+Lvl+9+2 (if you take spell focus and g spell focus).
I don't tink that it's a bad PC, excuse my english, i tried to explain the best way.
I'm not really terribly qualified to be discussing this, but I just wanted to throw out there that I'm currently running a Ftr6/Wiz3 that I'm finding incredibly satisfying. He's an Elven Curveblade specialist, with a +2 Keen Elven Curveblade, so I crit on 15-20, which is pretty darned nice.
I am able to buff with 1st and 2nd level spells before combat, so I can use Enlarge Person and Shield, and perhaps most importantly, See Invisible (which has saved the party's bacon on two occasions, now). I run +3 Elven chainmail, so the Arcane spell failure isn't too bad, I grabbed up a Nattie Armor Amulet and a Ring of Deflection, and all my armor bonuses stack - and I also have Mobility. I don't have my sheet in front of me, but I want to say my AC is 28 once I buff with shield, which is 32 against Opportunity attacks due to my movement. Anyway, it's something pretty high - I rarely get hit, and when I do I have the HP to survive at least until healing arrives. My saves are great. All in all, I love the character. Best of all, there's nothing like being able to use Hand of The Mage to make a ranged attack with a Keen Elven Curveblade.
The journey to 9th level wouldn't even be that painful - 6 levels of Fighter followed by three levels of Wizard. Although Level 7 sees you lose out on BAB increases, you pick up Shield(!) and become, like, untouchable (unless it's dispelled, of course, at which point you either cast it again, or just roll without it).
Sure, I'm not as good of a melee combatant as a straight Fighter, and I'm not NEARLY as good of a caster as a straight Wizard, but the character radiates Awesome out of every oriface, and after all, isn't that what you play an Arcane casting Melee character to do?
Obvious Troll Is Obvious wrote:
I am able to buff with 1st and 2nd level spells before combat,
If you are able to do this reliably then one of the greatest weaknesses of the character is removed.
This should not normally be the case however. It was what balanced the old 3.5 Clerics against dedicated melee characters, why the former were willing to taken quicken spell and bump spell levels up by 4 in an effort to mitigate.
If you were unable to buff beforehand with min/level spells your power level goes down tremendously. At which point you are looking between standard actions (that might do nothing via ASF, or even provoke) that do nothing to the enemy in the crucial first rounds, or going without them.
-James
Cold Napalm wrote: Ardenup wrote: Despite what cold napalm saves your ac doesn't have to suck, the OP mentioned a shield. go mithral buckler (no asf)
example AC
10+ 5(dex bonus+item) +8(Bracers)+5(Amulet of Natural Armor)+ 5(ring of protection)+ 1(mithral buckler)+5(shield enhancement)= 39
that's just using 14 dex and gear, no actual armor...
though on a quickend Displacement (or Blacklight) and your pretty sweet!
And at WHAT level do you get all that? And considering that as a fighter wizard you need to spend money on spells AND fighting gear, comparing the bracers and +6 dex item cost to just straight mithril breastplate becomes less tempting. The money issues is not as bad for a fighter/sorcerer however. And besides which 14 dex isn't "low" dex. I have no issue with 14 dex...that comment was to a poster who suggested 10 dex. Which with all the gear you mentioned makes it not so bad...but at lower levels, it's bad...oh so very bad. Man, i'm actually with ya on the whole getting gear late part. And i usually go without a shield. People make assumptions in alot of build examples- one is getting access to tome of x. Myself i never count on those when i build.
I wasn't aware the op was allowed 3.5 (to lazy to re-read) but since some are posting those options how about:
Paladin1 Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day, Wpn Fcs: Falchion, Power Attack,
2Sorc1 Arcana (+2 Compulsion), Laughing Touch, Cantrips, Eschew Materials
3Sorc2 Arcane Strike
4Sorc3 Woodland Stride, Blood spell (Entangle)
5Sorc4 Empwer Spell
6Sorc5 Blood Spell (Hideous laugh)
7Sorc6 Spl Fcs: Enchantment
8Splswd1 Ignore Spell Failure 10%
9AbjChamp1 Extra Smiting
10 Eldritch Knight1Diverse Training, Combat Intuition
11EK2 Quicken Spell
12 EK3
13 EK4 Wpn Spl
14 EK5 Melee Wpn Mastery (Slashing)
15 EK6 Crit Focus
16 EK7
17 EK8 Staggering Crit
18 EK9 Gtr Wpn Fcs
19 EK10 Slashing Flurry
20 AbjChamp2
Spells Bloodline,Feat/New Arcana
0- (9) Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Open/Close, Message, Ray of Frost, Ghost Sound, Prestidigiation
1-(5)Entangle, Enlarge Person, Sleep (swap for Protection against evil), Benign Transposition, Grease (swap for silent image), Fist of Stone (to be swapped for shield)
2-(5)Hideous Laughter, Invisibility, Alter Self, Glitterdust, Heroics- Use for any feat you want), Seeking Ray (To be swapped for scorching ray at lvl 6)
3-(4)Blacklight,Fly, Haste, Slow (To be swapped for Miser's Envy)
4-(4)Black Tentacles, Wings of Flurry(To be swapped for confusion, Resilient Sphere (retrain for enervation), Dimension Door
5-(4)Baleful Polymorph, Wall of Stone, Teleport, Dominate Person
6-(3) Thunder Field (PHB2), Brilliant Blade, Wages of Sin
7-(3) Reverse Gravity, Waves of Exhaustion, Limited Wish (use for Divine Power and Righteous Might, Freedom of Movt, Greater Magic Weapon, Holy sword, Raise Dead, Spell Resistance, Restoration, Reincarnate or any 6th level arcane spell)
8-(3) Giant Form 2, Wrathful Castigation
9-(3) Maw of Chaos
Best Spells
Will save or lose- Miser's Envy, Wages of Sin, Dominate Person, Wrathful Castigation, confusion.
Ref save or lose- Resilient Sphere
Fort save or Lose- Baleful Polymorph
Limited Wish to replicate any arcane spell of 6th level.
Direct Damage- 1rd Wings of Flurry
Good Feats for Heroics- Use it for arcane armor training for levels 3-7, Improved Crit, Bleeding Crit, Cleave, Disruptive, Standstill, Combat intuition
Combat- You are a primary caster and metamagic specialist. Avoid melee so you can cast empowered area spells or save or lose spells. If you wish to melee then Smite as swift action for +6 to AC and attack vs BBEG. Your keen falchion has a crit range of 15-20 so buff w/shield, brilliant blade and enlarge person then you can charge/full attack. One will likely crit and you can stagger. Use Combat intuition as a means of assesing any threat- melee any pushovers and save your spells for hard fights (adds+1 to hit on previous target).
As a caster you are pretty flexible. You have a save or lose for every attribute. A couple of great DD spells and the rest are buffs and area control.
For melee stick with charging in then full attacking and flanking. If you want to full attack- do it while flanking. You get a +2 on flanking attacks and if you do it with a miss chance buff the enemy will likely strike an easier target to hit. You will have trouble with high AC opponents use spells for them.
Don’t forget to use Smite. The damage bonus is crap but adding a +5 to your AC and attacks 3/day is darn good. (For Hard melee fights)
Your attack at 20 is 17 +4(gtr wpn fcs+mastery) +5(enhancement)+ 3(belt of physical perfection) +5(str)- 5(PA) +1(trait)= 30/25/20/15 on the first attack vs an opponent. Combat intuition grants +1 to hit a previously attacked foe. (get boots of speed for an extra attack.) and add +5 if smiting so +35. Or 25/20 on a Slashing Flurry standard attack(+30/+25 if smiting). Taking a Slashing Flurry full attack gives you 5 attacks (6 hasted) 25/25/20/15/10 Also Brilliant Blade or Wraithstrike will let you ignore Armor.
Damage is d8 +12(1.5 x str w/belt)+15(PA)+ 4(wpn spl, mastery)+5(enhancement)+1d6(sonic)+2d6(holy) +5 arcane strike= av 48 or 54 vs evil. Slashing flurry standard attack for 96 damage.
Vs AC 33 you'll hit at least once or twice for 48per hit.
With smite up at least 2 times for 96.
Slashing flurry should only be attempted with smite up or/divine power. 5 attacks (30/30/25/20/15)-likely get 3 for 146. If using just haste and combat intuition you'll hit with 4 attacks- divine power could get them all.
EXAMPLE- rd1- cast swift shield and divine power (asses threat as a free action) AC is now either 42. Rd2 swift blacklight and attack with slashing flurry with a to hit of 31/31/31/26/26/16 or 2attacks if must move.
The 2 extra attacks are from haste and slashing flurry. Divine power added +6 to hit and damage.
So now when you move you do 96 damage.
A full attack nets at least 192 damage.
Armor: At low levels your armor class is poor. Use Arcane Armor Training and Shield until you can afford a mithral chain shirt (no AC penalty). At level 10 You can wear mithral Breast Plate with only 5% Arcane Spell Failure. Enchant this For a Final AC of:
10+ 5(dex plus belt) +6(Armor)+5(Enhancement)+5(Amulet of Natural Armor)+ 5(ring of protection)= 36 (41 with shield spell, 47 with smite as well.) and a 50% Miss Chance (quickend Blacklight). Wear +5 Greater Energy Resistance, SR19 Breastplate.
1-6 You start as a THF paladin, Power attack and breastplate till your sorcerous powers awaken at 2. Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Daze should be your first cantrips. Shield, Sleep, Enlarge Person and later Haste, Slow are your best bets. Wraithstrike- will allow a swift full attack that ignores armor. Using it or smite makes your full attack good, better with arcane strike (can't arcane strike and full attack though)
7-20 Here you get good. You can smite 3/day, cast shield as swift action (+6ac), Wings of Flurry is the best blast available and you learn 3 save or lose spells. Casting is your most powerful option. You know little in the way of combat ‘tricks’ but one swift wraithstrike or casting of brilliant blade means 90damage if you move and 150-200 on a full attack. Your spells are your combat ‘tricks’ as you can alter terrain, blast, debuff well.
Forgot to mention- take ancestral weapon and the trait that adds +2 to cl (you'll need it)
daverius wrote: *his build* Nice build. Couple of things, tho.
Those gp allowances seem a little low. 2400 at 5th level? Is this for a low magic campaign?
I think you shorted yourself a feat. A human F1/W4 should have 5 feats plus Scribe Scroll.
At lower levels, you really ought to consider some armor. A Mithril Chain shirt is equal to Mage Armor, and it's always "on". Use your missing feat for arcane Armor Training to counter ASF.
While Grease is a fine spell, Sleep or Colorspray is my personal preference. They can really cut back on the number of mooks you'll face, and both have the chance of pretty much neutralizing up to a 4HD opponent.
I'd probably cut back to a single True Strike. Put in another Shield or Enlarge Person.
A Build:
F2/W3(Diviner)
CL 5
Feats:
Shield Focus
Weapon focus
Dodge
Imp. Initiative
Arcane Armor Training
Arcane Strike
Mithril chain + Mithril Buckler. AC=19(21 w/ Shield spell)
Attack: MW Longsword +7 (d8+2/+4 with Arcane Strike)
Bonded Item: Gauntlet
Either cast using AAT or attack using AS.
Traits: Reactionary and Magical Knack
Init: +9 (!)
HP 38 (10+6+4+4+4+10)
Strategy: You'll probably go first (even in surprise rounds), so open with a battlefield spell to eliminate mooks or a buff if facing a single opponent (Or Invisibility to run away). Then fight, fight, fight.
Hope this helps.
daverius wrote:
We can do it at Level 5.
20 point buy PF core rules.
GP values for gear are: 2400.
Max hit points at 1st level: 1/2 Die +1 hit point thereafter; Example fighters get 6 hit points + con per level. Mages get 4+1 con per level.
I'll start with a level 5 EK path build. I'm not very good at this.
Human Fighter 1/Wiz 4
N medium Humanoid (Human +2 int)
Int+6
Senses: Perception+5
Defense
AC 16 (+4 mage armor,+2 dex)17 (with aburjation special ability)
HP: 37
Fort+6, Ref+4, Will+5
Offense:
+1 long +7 19-20x2 1d8+4 (twohanded)
w/ bulls str+arcane strike
+1 long sword +9 19-20 x2, 1d8+9 (twohanded)
touch attacks +5
Spells:ulimited/4+1/3+1
0-touch of fatigue, detect magic, read magic, ghost sound
1-Grease (DC14), shield, mage armor, truestrike x2
2-mirror image x2, protection from arrows, bulls strength
Statsitics:
Str 14, dex 14, con 14, int 17, wis 10, cha 10
Base attack +3, CMB +5, CMD+7
Skills:
Ride +10, Craft armor +11, Craft weapons+11, Perception+5, Survival+4, Climb+4, Handle animal+6, Spellcraft+11
Feats: improved int, power attack, weapon focus longsword, arcane strike
Resist energy 5
Protective ward 10 ft, +1 AC 3 rounds, 6/day
Gear: Ring of resistance+1, +1long Sword
Using your format:
Human Fighter 5
N medium Humanoid (Human +2 STR)
Int+6
Senses: Perception+7
Defense
AC 23 (+9 armor,+2 shield, +2 dex)
HP: 49
Fort+6 (4base, 2 CON), Ref+3 (1 base, 2 DEX), Will+5 (1 base, 2WIS, 2Feat) (+6 vs fear, reroll 1/day)
Offense:
MW longsword +13 (5BAB, 5STR, 1WF, 1FTR, 1MW) 19-20x2 1d8+8 (5STR, 2WS, 1FTR)
Power Attacking Longsword +11 19-20x2 +1d8+12 (-2 for +4)
Statsitics:
Str 20, dex 14, con 14, int 7, wis 14, cha 7
Base attack +5, CMB +10, CMD+12
Skills:
Perception+7
Feats: improved initiative, power attack, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, WF: long sword, WS: long sword
Gear: Full Plate, Large Shield, MW Long Sword (You seemed to have 4400gp in gear rather than the 2400 you quoted, so I'm not sure what you're going at here. Standard NPC wealth is over 10k at 5th level).
Not sure on the breakdown of some of your stats as well.
I kept the fighter close to yours in using a longsword, while a great sword would make more sense and increase the damage A LOT as well) A greatsword goes in at 2d6+14 or over 150% damage with a +2 to hit over the other when fully buffed. Also you will want at least 2 mage armors to remain armored for the better part of a day rather than just 4 hours.
-James
I think the eldritch knight is a fine class, one of my favorites. I just rolled a level 20 fighter and a level 20 EK (F5/W5/EK10. The difference boiled down to the fighter getting a net +7 to hit and +4 to damage per hit, a few extra feats and a handful of extra hp. Not bad, but the EK can start combat by tossing out a prismatic spray or chain lightning. That should even the odds a bit. I really don't see the EK as being underpowered. He obviously couldn't stand toe to toe with a fighter and duke it out, but he shouldn't. He can waste a mage in melee, and waste a fighter with spells. If forced into combat with a similar level fighter, his spells should help pull him out. I didn't factor in magic items, but other than pumping his int a bit to get to the 7th level spells, he'd use items exactly like a fighter, maybe throwing in the odd scroll or two. Of course, it's a bit of pain getting to an EK, but good things are worth the wait.
james maissen wrote: daverius wrote:
We can do it at Level 5.
20 point buy PF core rules.
GP values for gear are: 2400.
Max hit points at 1st level: 1/2 Die +1 hit point thereafter; Example fighters get 6 hit points + con per level. Mages get 4+1 con per level.
I'll start with a level 5 EK path build. I'm not very good at this.
Human Fighter 1/Wiz 4
N medium Humanoid (Human +2 int)
Int+6
Senses: Perception+5
Defense
AC 16 (+4 mage armor,+2 dex)17 (with aburjation special ability)
HP: 37
Fort+6, Ref+4, Will+5
Offense:
+1 long +7 19-20x2 1d8+4 (twohanded)
w/ bulls str+arcane strike
+1 long sword +9 19-20 x2, 1d8+9 (twohanded)
touch attacks +5
Spells:ulimited/4+1/3+1
0-touch of fatigue, detect magic, read magic, ghost sound
1-Grease (DC14), shield, mage armor, truestrike x2
2-mirror image x2, protection from arrows, bulls strength
Statsitics:
Str 14, dex 14, con 14, int 17, wis 10, cha 10
Base attack +3, CMB +5, CMD+7
Skills:
Ride +10, Craft armor +11, Craft weapons+11, Perception+5, Survival+4, Climb+4, Handle animal+6, Spellcraft+11
Feats: improved int, power attack, weapon focus longsword, arcane strike
Resist energy 5
Protective ward 10 ft, +1 AC 3 rounds, 6/day
Gear: Ring of resistance+1, +1long Sword
Using your format:
Human Fighter 5
N medium Humanoid (Human +2 STR)
Int+6
Senses: Perception+7
Defense
AC 23 (+9 armor,+2 shield, +2 dex)
HP: 49
Fort+6 (4base, 2 CON), Ref+3 (1 base, 2 DEX), Will+5 (1 base, 2WIS, 2Feat) (+6 vs fear, reroll 1/day)
Offense:
MW longsword +13 (5BAB, 5STR, 1WF, 1FTR, 1MW) 19-20x2 1d8+8 (5STR, 2WS, 1FTR)
Power Attacking Longsword +11 19-20x2 +1d8+12 (-2 for +4)
Statsitics:
Str 20, dex 14, con 14, int 7, wis 14, cha 7
Base attack +5, CMB +10, CMD+12
Skills:
Perception+7
Feats: improved initiative, power attack, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, WF: long sword, WS: long sword
Gear: Full Plate, Large Shield, MW Long Sword (You seemed to have 4400gp in gear rather than the 2400 you quoted, so I'm not sure what you're... I took the money values from the core rule book. I believe pg. 450 or something.
You were correct that I went over my 2400 value limit by having a +1 longsword. Thank you for catching that. To answer your question on what I was getting at...well it was a mistake.
For my stats, let me break them down for you:
Human (+2 int)
STR 14 (5 points)
DEX 14 (5 points)
CON 14 (5 points)
INT 17 (5 points, +2 racial stat boost, +1 level 4 boost)
WIS 10 (0 points)
CHA 10 (0 points)
I acutally forgot to add a weasal familiar for a +2 reflex bonus, and the scribe scroll feat.
Okay, I made the following level 5 characters using the following formula:
1) 20 points
2) Human
3) one dump stat of 8
4) gear of roughly 2500 give or take
Human Fighter 1/wiz 4 (diviner) (evocation and enchantment)
starting stats: Str15, dex14, con14, int16, wis 10, cha 8
N medium Humanoid (Human +2 int, favored class wizard)
Int+8 (Dex+2, Imp Int+4, +2 diviner)
Senses: Perception+5 (+5 ranks)
Defense
AC: 17 (+2 dex, +4 mithral chain shirt, +1 smallshield)
HP: 40; 1d10+4d6+10 (+4 favored class, +10 con, 12+7+7+7+7=40)
Fort+5 (Base+3, con+2), Ref+5 (Base+1, dex+2, Weasal+2), Will+4 (Base+4)
Offense:
mw longsword +8 (Bab+3, str+3, Mw+1, wf+1) 19-20x2 1d8+4 (w/arcane strike)
w/ bulls str+arcane strike
mw longsword +10 (bab+3, str+5, mw+1, wf+1) 19-20 x2, 1d8+6 w/ arcane strike
touch attacks +6 (Bab+3, str+3)
Spells:ulimited/4+1/3+1
0-touch of fatigue, detect magic, read magic, ghost sound
1-Grease (DC14), shieldx2, colorspray(DC14), true strike
2-mirror image, see invisibilty, bulls strengthx2
Statsitics:
Str 16, dex 14, con 14, int 16, wis 10, cha 8
Base attack +3, CMB +6, CMD 18
Skills:
Ride +10 (Ranks+5, dex+2, class+3),
Craft armor +11 (ranks+5, int+3, class+3),
Craft weapons+11 (ranks+5, int+3, class+3),
Perception+5 (ranks+5),
Survival+4 (Ranks+1, class+3),
Climb+7 (Rank+1, Class+3, Str+3),
Handle animal+5 (Rank+3, class+3, -1 cha)
Spellcraft+11 (ranks+5, int+3, class+3)
Feats: improved int, power attack, weapon focus longsword, arcane strike, scribe scroll
forwarned (+2 intiative), diviners fortune 6/day +2 bonus to attack rolls, saving throws
Gear: mithral chain shirt, small shield, mw longsword
Arcane spell failure 15%
-----------------------------------------
Human Fighter 5
starting stats: STR 17, Dex 14, con 16, int 10, wis 10, cha 8
N medium Humanoid (Human +2 STR, favored class fighter)
Int+2 (+2 dex)
Senses: Perception+5 (+5 ranks)
Defense
AC: 25 (+9 full plate, +3 heavy shield, +2 dex, +1 dodge)
HP: 54 (5d10+20, 14+10+10+10+10)
Fort:+8 (Base+5, con+3), Ref+3 (Base+1, Dex+2), Will+1 (Base+1)
Offense:
mw battleaxe +12 (Bab+5, Str+4, wt+1, wf+1, mw+1), 1d8+7 (+4 str, +1 wt, +2 ws)
throwing axe+8 (Bab+5, dex+2, wt+1) 1d6+5 (+4 str, +1 wt)
Statsitics:
Str 18, dex 14, con 16, int 10, wis 10, cha 8
Base attack +5, CMB +9, CMD 21
Skills:
Ride+7 (+5 ranks, +3 class, +4 str, -5acp)
Perception+5 (+5 ranks)
Surviva+4 (+1rank,+3 class)
Climb+3 (1 ranks, +3 class, +4 str, -5acp)
Swim+6 (4 ranks, +3 class, +4 str -5acp
Feats: Shield focus, dodge, weapon focus (battleaxe), power attack, cleave, weapon specilization (battleaxe)
Armor training 1, weapon training (axes) 1, bravery+1
Gear: mw full plate, mw heavy shield, mw battleaxe
--------------------------------
Human Wizard 5 (diviner) Opposition schools enchantment, evocation
starting stats: Str11, dex13, con14, int 19, wis 10 cha 8
N Medium Humaniod (Human +2 int, favored class wizard)
Int+7 (+1 dex,+2 diviner, +4 feat)
Senses: Perception+5
Defense
AC: 17(+4 mage armor, +1 rop, +1 dex, +1 dodge)
HP:36 (9+7+7+7+7)
Fort+3 (+1 base, +2 con), Ref+4 (+1 base, +2 weasal, +1 dex), Will+4 (+4 base)
Offense:
Staff+2 (BAB+2) 1d6
mw light crossbow +4 (Bab+2, dex+1 mw+1) 1d8 19-20 x2
Ray+3 (+1 dex, +2 bab)
Spells: unlimited/4+1/3+1/2+1
0-detect magic, read magic, ghost sound, mage hand
1-mage armorx2, true strike, color sprayx2 (DC16)
2-see invisibilty, glitter dustX2 (DC17), bulls strength
3-clariadance/clairvoyance, Hastex2
Statstics:
Str 11, Dex13, con 14, Int 20, wis 10, cha 8
CMB +2 (+2 bab), CMD 13 (+2 bab, +1dex)
Skills:
Knowledge arcana +13 (ranks+5, int+5, class+3)
knowledge relgion +13 (ranks+5, int+5, class+3)
knowledge planes +13 (ranks+5, int+5, class+3)
craft armor +13 (ranks+5, int+5, class+3)
spellcraft +13 (ranks+5, int+5, class+3)
linquestics +13 (ranks+5, int+5, class+3)
Feats: Improved intiative, craft wonderous item, dodge, scribe scroll, brew potion
Gear: Ring of protection, 400 gp in scrolls
Are you using the NPC Wealth by Level Guidelines? 'Cause a 5th lvl PC should have 10,500 gp worth of "stuff." The PC WBL chart is on page 399 of the Core Rules.
Mynameisjake wrote: Are you using the NPC Wealth by Level Guidelines? 'Cause a 5th lvl PC should have 10,500 gp worth of "stuff." The PC WBL chart is on page 399 of the Core Rules. You know, I think you are right about the wealth. However, the point is for everyone to see the actual physical differences between a full mage, a full fighter, and an eldrith knight build.
I guess it will turn into a discussion on what "role" do you wish to play?
To take a look at exactly how a gish can contribute in an adventure. Also to determine wether it is a poorly balanced choice or not.
I personally think that it would be fun and challenging. I think the EK is versatile and good for a variety situations.
For example, a fighter is great at either soaking up damage, or dishing out damage. However, supernatural attacks can really shut down the fighter...especially with a failed will save etc.
A wizard is pretty versatile, however if they prepared the wrong spells, then they are severely limited. In addition they are squishy.
The EK has the tools to do alright in most situations, even if they did not prepare the right spells, or if they are up against supernatural creatures. They have the spells handy to dispel effects etc.
daverius wrote:
For example, a fighter is great at either soaking up damage, or dishing out damage. However, supernatural attacks can really shut down the fighter...especially with a failed will save etc.
The fighter I put up was better at will saves than the gish that you did (with a re-roll and +1 situational). He had the extra room for feats from his fighter levels, as well as a higher level fighter class ability going towards that.
And again if I wanted to make him a little more even in AC I should have had him using a greatsword. There you would have a PC with the same (slightly better even) will save, same AC (*after* your PC casts shield), and does around twice the expected damage with melee attacks.
Bottom-line is that the gish really needs to try to figure out what they can do right. If they are simply a lesser fighter and lesser wizard then they are two lower level characters that have to share actions (as well as feats, skills, etc).
Multiclassing changed in 3e from true multiclassing to more of a build your own class. Many combinations simply fail in the 'simply add' mechanics and PrCs were introduced as a stop gap fix for it. They did a bad job in 3.x with it, and while the PF PrCs would be alright (in some cases) in 3.x they raised the bar with their base classes.
In short multiclassing and multiclass PrCs have not been given the time and effort that they require.
-James
I went a different way than I am seeing here. Not sure if it is good or bad. Let me know if this does not seem actually viable.
ELDRITCH KNIGHT CR 6
Male Human Eldritch Knight 1 / Fighter 1 / Wizard 5
TN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +1; Perception +0
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 14, touch 13, flat-footed 12 (+1 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 73 (2d10+5d6+26)
Fort +7, Ref +2, Will +4
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Greatsword +9 (2d6+7)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 16/18, Dex 13, Con 14/16, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +4; CMB +8; CMD 21
Feats Arcane Strike, Combat Casting, Craft Wand, Dodge, Extend Spell, Scribe Scroll, Toughness +7, Weapon Focus: Bite, Weapon Focus: Claw, Wizard Weapon Proficiencies
Skills Appraise +7, Climb +8, Fly +11, Handle Animal +4, Intimidate +4, Knowledge: Arcana +13, Knowledge: Nature +13, Linguistics +7, Ride +5, Spellcraft +13, Survival +10, Swim +8
Languages Boggard, Common, Elven, Sylvan
SQ Transmuter (Divination, Illusion) Physical Enhancement +2: Strength (Su), Telekinetic Fist (6/day) (Sp), Arcane Bond
Combat Gear +1 Greatsword;
Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Physical Might, STR & CON +2, Ring of Protection, +1, Wand of Beast Shape I, Wand of Mage Armor.
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Extend Spell Spell duration lasts twice as normal. +1 Level.
Physical Enhancement +2: Strength (Su) +1 bonus to physical ability, +1 per 5 levels (change per day).
Telekinetic Fist (6/day) (Sp) 30' ranged touch attack, 1d4+2
Created With Hero Lab® - try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com!
Lord Refa wrote:
Str 16/18, Dex 13, Con 14/16, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Your over 20 points. Assuming that the +2 went into one of the 16s, your at 23 points.
Cold Napalm wrote: Lord Refa wrote:
Str 16/18, Dex 13, Con 14/16, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Your over 20 points. Assuming that the +2 went into one of the 16s, your at 23 points. 1st Level Stats: Str 14 (5), Dex 13 (3), Con 14 (5), Int 15 (7), Wis 10, Cha 10
Human +2 to Strength (16)
4th Level +1 to Int (16)
Transmuter +2 to Dexterity
Belt of Physical Might +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Final Stats: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
james maissen wrote: daverius wrote:
For example, a fighter is great at either soaking up damage, or dishing out damage. However, supernatural attacks can really shut down the fighter...especially with a failed will save etc.
The fighter I put up was better at will saves than the gish that you did (with a re-roll and +1 situational). He had the extra room for feats from his fighter levels, as well as a higher level fighter class ability going towards that.
And again if I wanted to make him a little more even in AC I should have had him using a greatsword. There you would have a PC with the same (slightly better even) will save, same AC (*after* your PC casts shield), and does around twice the expected damage with melee attacks.
Bottom-line is that the gish really needs to try to figure out what they can do right. If they are simply a lesser fighter and lesser wizard then they are two lower level characters that have to share actions (as well as feats, skills, etc).
Multiclassing changed in 3e from true multiclassing to more of a build your own class. Many combinations simply fail in the 'simply add' mechanics and PrCs were introduced as a stop gap fix for it. They did a bad job in 3.x with it, and while the PF PrCs would be alright (in some cases) in 3.x they raised the bar with their base classes.
In short multiclassing and multiclass PrCs have not been given the time and effort that they require.
-James The fighter you put up had an int of 7, and a cha of 7. I'm very certain that if we dumped certain stats to that extent we would be able to come up with more comparable build.
However, you fighter does bring up an interesting point in that pure fighters and pure wizards do not need that many strong stats, so they are easier to optimize.
Then again, your fighter has no use other than to hit things in combat. Maybe to bash open doors and set off traps.
If it was a combat that involved riding on horses, your fighter would be lacking. If was fight where you had to climb a rockface to take out goblin raiders who were pelting arrows and rocks at you. Your figter would be at a disadvantage, no climbing skills etc. The perception was good.
But in most cases, your fighter will stand up well and lay out a whole lot of hurt, and soak up damage.
All in all, I don't see your fighter being that much more superior than my gish. In a straight one dimensional fight, yea your fighter owns.
Oh and my gish is no where near optimal. As you can observe, other peple have posted much more stronger gish builds.
daverius wrote:
The fighter you put up had an int of 7, and a cha of 7. I'm very certain that if we dumped certain stats to that extent we would be able to come up with more comparable build.
However, you fighter does bring up an interesting point in that pure fighters and pure wizards do not need that many strong stats, so they are easier to optimize.
Then again, your fighter has no use other than to hit things in combat. Maybe to bash open doors and set off traps.
If it was a combat that involved riding on horses, your fighter would be lacking. If was fight where you...
The build does have 5 skill points to distribute, place them where you feel is appropriate.
And yes I dumped stats for the fighter as he need not either be smart nor charismatic. Nor is he especially optimized, just something off the cuff and honestly more designed to mirror your gish in areas.
-James
Here is my shot at an Eldritch Knight build. I went with Bastard Sword because it can be used one or two-handed. You can use it two-handed when fighting and use it one-handed when casting spells. Sure you would get a -4 for not having the proper proficiency, but it doesn't matter, since you are not attacking with it anyway.
Human Fighter 2/Wiz 3
N medium Humanoid (Half Elf +2 int)
Int: +2
Senses: Perception +5
Defense
AC: 16 (10 +4 Armor, +2 Dex) (20 w/ Shield)
HP: 40
Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +4 (+1 vs. Fear)
Offense:
MW Bastard Sword +8 19-20x2 1d10+5 (twohanded)
w/ Bulls Strength
MW Bastard Sword +10 19-20 x2, 1d10+8 (twohanded)
w/ Hand of the Apprentice (6/day)
MW Bastard Sword +8 19-20x2 1d10+5, 30' range
touch attacks +5
Spells: 4/3/2 (+1 arcane bond)
0-Detect Magic, Light, Ray of Frost, Prestidigitation
1-Enlarge Person, Grease (DC14), Shield
2-Mirror Image, Bulls Strength
Statsitics:
Str 16, dex 14, con 14, int 16, wis 10, cha 8
Base attack +3, CMB +6, CMD 18
Skills: Climb+4, Knowledge: Arcana +5, Knowledge: Dungeoneering +5, Linguistics +8, Perception+5, Ride +10, Spellcraft+11, Swim +9
Feats: Arcane Armor Training, Arcane Strike, Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword, Scribe Scroll
Class Features: Arcane Bond, Bravery +1, Hand of the Apprentice
Gear: Mithral Chain Shirt, MW Bastard Sword, Cloak of Resistance +1
He can "throw" his Bastard Sword to attack up to 30' away 6/day. He has defensive options (Shield, Mirror Image), offensive (Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength) and some utility. He can cast with no arcane failure using his Arcane Armor Training feat or hit for extra damage using his Arcane Strike feat. He can possibly get two attacks off using Cleave. So quite a few things he can do.
Hm.
Here's what I did for my EK.
Human, Wizard 5/ Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 1
Specialty(transmuter: Banned: Enchantment, Divination)
Stats:
16 Str 12 Dex 12 Con 18 Int 10 Wis 7 Cha
Trait: Magical Knack, Heirloom weapon, reactionary
Feats: Extra Traits, Toughness, Power attack, weapon focus(long sword), Arcane Strike, Still spell, Improved Familiar, Eschew Materials
Equipment:
Full Plate +2
Heavy Shield +2
Lesser metamagic rod of Extend spell
+1 Long Sword (heirloom)
Scrolls
Familiar: Fairie Dragon
Here is the same character I posted above at 10th level. The low money gimps the equipment pretty hard.
Human Fighter 2/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3
N medium Humanoid (Half Elf +2 int)
Int: +2
Senses: Perception +10
Defense:
AC: 18 (10 +5 Armor +2 Dex +1 deflection) (22 w/ Shield)
HP: 70
Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +6 (+1 vs. Fear)
Offense:
+1 Bastard Sword +12/+7 19-20x2 1d10+8 (two-handed)
+1 Bastard Sword +14/+9 19-20 x2, 1d10+11 (two-handed) w/ Bulls Strength
+1 Bastard Sword +13 19-20x2 1d10+8, 30' range (two-handed) w/ Hand of the Apprentice (7/day)
Touch Attacks +9
Spells: 4/5/4/3/2 (+1 arcane bond) Caster level: 7
0-Detect Magic, Light, Ray of Frost, Prestidigitation
1-Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Magic Missile (4d4+4), Shield x2
2-Bulls Strength, Glitterdust (DC 16), Mirror Image, Scorching Ray (4d6x2)
3-Fireball (7d6, DC 17), Fly, Haste
4-Fire Shield, Greater Invisibility
Statistics:
Str 16, dex 14, con 14, int 17(19), wis 10, cha 8
Base attack +7/+2, CMB +10, CMD 22
Skills: Climb+6, Knowledge: Arcana +15, Knowledge: Dungeoneering +15, Linguistics +8, Perception+10, Ride +15, Spellcraft+17, Swim +13
Feats: Arcane Armor Training, Arcane Strike, Cleave, Extend Spell, Lunge, Power Attack, Scribe Scroll, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword, Weapon Specialization: Bastard Sword
Class Features: Arcane Bond, Bravery +1, Diverse Training, Hand of the Apprentice
Gear: Mithral Chain Shirt +1, +1 Bastard Sword, Cloak of Resistance +1, Headband of Intellect +2, Ring of Protection +1
See, unlike the rest of ya, I took into account the 5 levels of wizard you need to be an EK into account and did this...
Elf fighter 1/wizard(generalist) 5/EK 3
Str 13, dex 16, con 10, int 21, wis 7, cha 7. (before items)
And this is with 15 point buy. Caster first, melee second.
Cold Napalm wrote: See, unlike the rest of ya, I took into account the 5 levels of wizard you need to be an EK into account and did this...
Elf fighter 1/wizard(generalist) 5/EK 3
Str 13, dex 16, con 10, int 21, wis 7, cha 7. (before items)
And this is with 15 point buy. Caster first, melee second.
you ignored my post then which was 20 point buy with high strength 5 wizard then fighter/ek.
Abraham spalding wrote: Cold Napalm wrote: See, unlike the rest of ya, I took into account the 5 levels of wizard you need to be an EK into account and did this...
Elf fighter 1/wizard(generalist) 5/EK 3
Str 13, dex 16, con 10, int 21, wis 7, cha 7. (before items)
And this is with 15 point buy. Caster first, melee second.
you ignored my post then which was 20 point buy with high strength 5 wizard then fighter/ek. No I didn´t...I just think the EK req with a whole lotta wizard levels and needing 1 fighter level makes the idea of making a high phsyical stat, low int self buffer non-viable.
Cold Napalm wrote:
No I didn´t...I just think the EK req with a whole lotta wizard levels and needing 1 fighter level makes the idea of making a high phsyical stat, low int self buffer non-viable.
18 is low int? News to me.
Abraham spalding wrote: Cold Napalm wrote:
No I didn´t...I just think the EK req with a whole lotta wizard levels and needing 1 fighter level makes the idea of making a high phsyical stat, low int self buffer non-viable.
18 is low int? News to me. Opps...read the wrong stat block :P.
Your basically trading my dex for str...and slightly lower int. Seems fine. I would have done the higher strength deal too...except that I´m TWF with a shield. Eventually giant form 2 with a wall of fire and shield slam for fun :) .
I also like 19 starting int because that goes up to 24 with level up points. Course wish makes the bonuses odd again so ultimately in the end 18 or 19 ends up about the same.
Yeah I used a 20 point buy... originally the character was for PFS play but I still can't stomach the idea of it so he'll get used elsewhere instead (with the magical knack trait I have on).
I grabbed heirloom weapon and reactionary to help hitting (longsword... a bit of a traditionalist) and fix the Init mod a bit.
gish vs. fighter is a non comparison in a 1v1 situation, because fighters cant fly. Simple as that. A flying gish wins because of his spell access. This is the same as a wizard vs. fighter
a gish vs. a wizard is a very interesting fight completely dependant on spells used. It would most likely come down to init. Gish wins by grappling a most likely weaker wizard and preventing him from casting most spells. Wizard simply hits with a strong save or die against the Gish's weak save.
So i would say the gish has about a 95% win chance against a fighter 1v1 and about a 45% chance against a wizard depending on spells/strats.
pain4gains wrote: gish vs. fighter is a non comparison in a 1v1 situation, because fighters cant fly. Simple as that. What about a potion of Fly? Broom/Carpet of Flying? Half-Fiend template? Half-Dragon template? Winged Boots?
Tanis wrote: pain4gains wrote: gish vs. fighter is a non comparison in a 1v1 situation, because fighters cant fly. Simple as that. What about a potion of Fly? Broom/Carpet of Flying? Half-Fiend template? Half-Dragon template? Winged Boots? Those are all thing your putting in to counter just one situation. Templates are making you weaker overall, the potion can be dispelled, and the carpet/broom you could be knocked off of...fall damage is a b@%%*.
The gish could fly. Normal fighter can't compare to that.
The gish could cast displacement. Normal fighter can't cope with that.
The gish could drop an iron wall on the fighter.. fighter? nope.
The gish could teleport away, prep, teleport back in and attack. Fighter can't.
Heck the gish could simply suggest the fighter go polish his armor for a few hours while the gish has some lunch, cleans himself, buffs, positions, sets the field, and then launches his attack.
Fighters simply don't stand a chance against a higher level caster.
pain4gains wrote:
Those are all thing your putting in to counter just one situation. Templates are making you weaker overall, the potion can be dispelled, and the carpet/broom you could be knocked off of...fall damage is a b@%%*.
um, pretty much every melee character i've ever played has at least one potion of fly once i've got past 3rd lvl. As far as templates making you weaker...i respectfully disagree. Half-Dragon is a CR +2 template that gives you a free class level at 6th lvl. So for 1 lvl you get +8 Str, +6 Con, wings, etc. That seems like a fair trade to me.
pain4gains wrote: The gish could fly. Normal fighter can't compare to that.
The gish could cast displacement. Normal fighter can't cope with that.
The gish could drop an iron wall on the fighter.. fighter? nope.
The gish could teleport away, prep, teleport back in and attack. Fighter can't.
Heck the gish could simply suggest the fighter go polish his armor for a few hours while the gish has some lunch, cleans himself, buffs, positions, sets the field, and then launches his attack.
Fighters simply don't stand a chance against a higher level caster.
You have a point about the suggestions and buffs. Wizards are much more versatile than a fighter, no question. But to say that they simply don't stand a chance, well that's not so solid, IMO.
Tanis wrote: pain4gains wrote:
Those are all thing your putting in to counter just one situation. Templates are making you weaker overall, the potion can be dispelled, and the carpet/broom you could be knocked off of...fall damage is a b@%%*.
um, pretty much every melee character i've ever played has at least one potion of fly once i've got past 3rd lvl. As far as templates making you weaker...i respectfully disagree. Half-Dragon is a CR +2 template that gives you a free class level at 6th lvl. So for 1 lvl you get +8 Str, +6 Con, wings, etc. That seems like a fair trade to me.
pain4gains wrote: The gish could fly. Normal fighter can't compare to that.
The gish could cast displacement. Normal fighter can't cope with that.
The gish could drop an iron wall on the fighter.. fighter? nope.
The gish could teleport away, prep, teleport back in and attack. Fighter can't.
Heck the gish could simply suggest the fighter go polish his armor for a few hours while the gish has some lunch, cleans himself, buffs, positions, sets the field, and then launches his attack.
Fighters simply don't stand a chance against a higher level caster.
You have a point about the suggestions and buffs. Wizards are much more versatile than a fighter, no question. But to say that they simply don't stand a chance, well that's not so solid, IMO. ok, gish casts fly and takes off. Fighter drinks potion and moves up near the gish. Gish flys away and easily dispells the low caster level fly potion off the fighter. Fighter his the ground. Stands as a move action and does what? Ranged attack if he has quickdraw? otherwise hes using that turn to get a weapon prepared to attack the gish. Who next turn either hits the fighter with a ray, debuff, control, or ranged attack. Gish simply outpower fighters by a vast margin that really makes everything but a fluke a sure win.
Either that or he pulls out his Vicious, Merciful, Corrosive, Thundering, Shocking mighty comp. longbow +5 and with his Boots of Speed proceeds to do an average 200 hp of damage in 1 rnd. Check out the DPS Olympics to see the odds.
As I'm planning a gish character for the next adventure path we'll play I'd like to ask opinions on this kind of build. It has to be pfrpg core only.
The idea is to have a playable character for levels 1 to around 16.
I was thinking for Paladin 2, then Sorcerer(dragon) 3 (char level 5), then Dragon Disciple 4 (char level 9), then either go on on DD or eldritch knight 7 (char level 16).
It'd be primary melee, high strenght character with some buffs. Probably with a high-crit weapon (falchion) or taking the ride chain of feats and a lance... The small charisma-based buffs from Paladin 2 might come handy as well...
Magical knack is a must, of course.
any opinions and/or suggestions?
pain4gains wrote:
Fighters simply don't stand a chance against a higher level caster. Even Rary and Mordenkainen would think twice before underestimating a fighter that's crazy prepared like Robilar.
midknight wrote: As I'm planning a gish character for the next adventure path we'll play I'd like to ask opinions on this kind of build. It has to be pfrpg core only.
The idea is to have a playable character for levels 1 to around 16.
I was thinking for Paladin 2, then Sorcerer(dragon) 3 (char level 5), then Dragon Disciple 4 (char level 9), then either go on on DD or eldritch knight 7 (char level 16).
It'd be primary melee, high strenght character with some buffs. Probably with a high-crit weapon (falchion) or taking the ride chain of feats and a lance... The small charisma-based buffs from Paladin 2 might come handy as well...
Magical knack is a must, of course.
any opinions and/or suggestions?
After Paizo finishes with the upcoming nerf bat on Paladins, we'll see.
LazarX wrote:
After Paizo finishes with the upcoming nerf bat on Paladins, we'll see.
Are paladins going to be officially nerfed?
Not that I don't agree it's needed... a tasty 2 level paladin dip has been there since 3.0...
Any suggestions for the build anyway? I was thinking of going the mounted combat route for spirited charge, then getting leadership for a nice mount, then other 'classics' like power attack, arcane strike, etc...
pain4gains wrote:
ok, gish casts fly and takes off. Fighter drinks potion and moves up near the gish. Gish flys away and easily dispells the low caster level fly potion off the fighter. Fighter his the ground. Stands as a move action and does what?
If he's smart and the fight isn't taking place in a big white empty room, he uses the 5 letter word that is the bane of all ranged attack.
COVER.
Battlefield control isn't just a word for arcanists after all. The world is full of big things that spells can't easily go through.
midknight wrote:
Any suggestions for the build anyway? I was thinking of going the mounted combat route for spirited charge, then getting leadership for a nice mount, then other 'classics' like power attack, arcane strike, etc...
Do you really think that that many of your fights are going to be mounted combat?
pain4gains wrote: gish vs. fighter is a non comparison in a 1v1 situation, Sorry, we seem to be playing a different game.
I don't have characters fight in arenas 1 against 1.
Instead they tend to adventure in groups against either monsters or other groups.
The gish is weak. He has to balance far too much to be moderate. Meanwhile Paizo has increased the power of single classed fighters, which further decreases the relative power of the gish character.
-James
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