daverius's page

Hi everyone,

could weapon training be applied to grapple bonuses?

So would this grapple check be correct?

fighter level 9, STR 22 and with feats: improved grapple, greater grapple, weapon focus grapple, greater weapon focus grapple and weapon training.

Would the grapple check be 23?

Str+6, BAB+9, wf +1, gwf+1, Weapon training+2, Imp grap+2, Greater grap+2

Thank you.

Yasha0006 this was such a great thread. Thank you! Really, I have spent such a long time looking for someone to create the stats for Order of the Stick. I especially like the Dashing Swordsmen Prestige Class, and Belkar is spot on!

One observation. I think Nale has Dimension DOor as his fourth level spell.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html

For touch attacks, as in the wizard's special abilities from their arcane school, can you apply dex bonus in place of str with the weapon finese feat?

For example, the disrupting touch for the counterspell arcane subschool from apg.

I want an honest opinion, what, to you, makes someone a good GM within the society world (if we need to be specific)

For PFS games (and these are not in order of importance) a good judge should:

1) Study the mod, and create ways to draw in characters. This may require creative random npc creation for when players ask questions at the tavern etc. Many mods are broad, that they require the judge to fill in and direct players as needed. Also, be prepared to allow alternative methods to solving PA quests. For example, if it requires a DC 30 diplomacy roll, allow the characters to use bluff, intimidate, bribery, and other creative methods to solve the quest. In addition, if the mod doesn't have it written, develop consequences for failure that are reasonable and hopefully entertaining and funny.

2) Randomly roll for the players perception, stealth, and knowledge skills in secret. Allow them some rolls, but keep some for self.

3) When a player successfully uses their perception, and knowledge skills take them aside and explain to them what they learned and allow them to share it with the group in their own words.

4) Table control. PFS games may have up to six players at the table and this can get confusing. Some players may dominate the conversation and others may be left out. Develop a system where each player tells you what they plan to do. Allow for discussion, but limit the length. Say things like "20 seconds and I will proceed with what you have stated" etc. I like to go around the table and have people tell me what they want to do, one at a time and within 20 seconds.

The Gish I have in mind is:

Elf fighter 1/ wizard 9/EK 10

First level fighter, the next five levels as a wizard (Conjuration; teleportation subschool specialist from the advanced players guide). 10 levels of EK, then 4 more levels of wizard.

I would have high dex and int.

Use a spiked chain, with weapon finese and combat reflexes, and focus on area control spells such as:

grease, glitterdust, and tentacles.

Have a rat familiar for the +2 fort saves.

It does exactly what it says it does...

IF you conform to the expectations of a humanoid PC, i.e. your Full Attack is done with weapons.
You get a bite attack at -5 BAB and 1x STR mod to DMG
on top of and without affecting the rest of the attacks of a Full Attack Action.

Your quote with regard to the general rules for combining natural and manufactured attacks is suspected to be Errata. In any event, even if those are the general rules, this Feat over-rides those because it is allowing you to make your normal Full Attack WITHOUT ANY STATED PENALTY in addition to the bite attack which is properly treated as a 2ndary attack in combo with an Iterative attack.

This ability is actually a good example of how mixing natural attacks and iterative attacks is SUPPOSED to work, i.e. NOT applying `2WF` penalties on top of the iterative attacks, but simply down-grading all the natural attacks to secondary (if they weren`t already) and giving them a -5 attack penalty. In fact, it`s widely thought that the last 3 sentences of the `Natural Attacks` sub-heading of the Attack Action in the Combat Chapter are Errata and should simply be ignored. (besides that all `attack` info should really be located under general attack heading, not the specific Attack Action, especially wierd for the Natural Attack section since it`s largely dealing with multiple attack scenarios normally reuiring a Standard Action `Attack Action`).

The RAW of the ability DOESN`T cover what happens if you don`t try to make an iterative attack with manufactured weapons or unarmed strikes, but instead want to combine it with other natural weapons. I`m not going to look up the quote, but Paizo has stated that the ability is indeed just another natural weapon, so in that case the bite would be another primary weapon at full STR mod to DMG, with no penalty to BAB. (If you already have a Bite attack, the ability doesn`t do anything besides the synergy with Grapple, unless you somehow had a bite attack that was below par for your size, in which case...

Okay cool Thanks.

"Animal Fury (Ex): While raging, the barbarian gains a bite
attack. If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is
made at the barbarian’s full base attack bonus –5. If the bite
hits, it deals 1d4 points of damage (assuming the barbarian
is Medium; 1d3 points of damage if Small) plus half the
barbarian’s Strength modifier. A barbarian can make a bite
attack as part of the action to maintain or break free from a
grapple. This attack is resolved before the grapple check is
made. If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made by the
barbarian against the target this round are at a +2 bonus."

It says under the combat section:

"...In addition,
all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed
strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting...."

1) Does the rage power ability allow you to make a bite attack without needing the two weapon fighting feat? Or if I rage, have animal fury, and choose to make a bite attack in combination with attacking with my weapon do I suffer the additional twf penalties?

2)Do I add my strength modifier to the bite attack? Dexterity if I have weapon finese? Or is my bite attack simply my full base attack bonus -5?

So if I have a BaB of 6, and a strength modifer of +5...would my bite attack be (if I am also attacking with a weapon) +6 (6+5-5)? Or would it be +1 (6-5)?

thank you in advance.

For a bump in melee damage potential, replace the greataxe with a greatsword or a falchion; the falchion requires you to invest a feat or two (Improved Critical, Critical Focus) or some weapon abilities (cunning, keen) for full effect, however. Vital Strike can also be useful for rounds that you are moving and can't full attack.

Intimidating Prowess is a better feat choice than Skill Focus (Intimidate) for demoralizing enemies. Also, you may want to consider taking it at 3rd or 5th level in place of either Weapon Focus or Improved Sunder to get more use out of Intimidating Glare and Terrifying Howl.

If your abilities were a bit different (higher Dex), I might have suggested a barbarian/ranger with an orc double-axe and Animal Fury. For the second build, look at the Brutal Pugilist alternate abilities in the APG for bonuses to unarmed attacks and grapples. Or you could ditch melee weapons entirely and go with a Brutal Pugilist/Beast Totem barbarian.

One of the primary ways to increase your versatility is to carry a reach weapon (a longspear is inexpensive, but some of the martial polearms can be used to trip) and invest in a composite bow built for a +4 Str modifier (the composite short bow should be sufficient at 675 gp for a masterwork version, in most circumstances) ASAP. If there is a caster with enlarge person on their spell list in the party, think about purchasing a wand for them to use on you before each fight (a 750 gp investment that can go a long way). Alternately, or in addition, 2 levels of ranger can be useful for the Combat Style feat (although you lose a rage power), some extra skill ranks, and the ability to use wands of ranger spells yourself (including barkskin and longstrider).

Thank you. I saw the beast totem feats and puglist. That is a very interesting build. I think I might lean toward the falchion, for the criticals. I liked the greataxe for the x3, so when a crit does land....its game over.

I actually was thinking of another approach. It is going to be awhile before I play, and have some time to develop my build approach. My character is still level 1.

What do you know about the barbarian/oracle/raging prophet build?

I was playing around with it...it does add to some versality and the ability to self-heal and self-buff looks great.

I was thinking barb 5/oracle 1 before leaping into raging prophet.
str 18, dex 12, con 14, int 10, wis 8, cha 14

lvl feat/power/spells
bar 1: power attack
bar 2:. intimidating glare
bar2/ora 1: toughness, battle revelation, weapon mastery (wf falchion) divine favor, shield of faith
bar3 / ora 1: charisma bump
bar 4/ora 1: clarity of mind, intimidating prowess
bar 5 / ora 1:
bar 5 /ora / rp 1: vital strike, or critical focus (can't decide)

I wonder if a straight barbarian would be better.

daverius wrote:

Hello everyone,

I just played my first Pathfinder society game. I have a half-orc barbarian wielding a greataxe.

str 18, dex 14, con 14, int 10, wis 12, cha 8

feat: Power attack

I haven't fully decided on the role I want to fill and could use some advice.

I know I don't want to be specialized in any given area. I would like to deal out a decent amount of damage, as well as tank pretty well.

At the same time, I would like to have some abilities that would allow me to alter or change the battlefied...for example having strength surge and knock back, or knock down (APG), or improved bull rush.

Here are the builds I have in mind and was wondering which one would be the most useful in the most varied of situations.

Build one:
Lvl: Feats/rage powers
1: power attack
2: intimidating glare
3: weapon focus (greataxe)
4: strength surge
5: improved sunder
6: knockback
8: terrifying howl
9: skill focus intimidate
10: surprise attack

Build two:
1: power attack
2: reckless abandon (apg)
3: improved unarmed
4: animal fury
5: improved grapple
6: strength surge
7: toughness
8: knock down
9: improved overrun
10: superstition

I just can't figure out if the above feat/power selections are useful, and in what order they should be selected to maximize the usefulness the character throughout the levels.

Thank you in advance.

Power attack works great for 2H'ers... huge damage output and you'll still hit more often than a monk flurrying. Furious Focus (APG) isn't a bad one to pick up with that. Your builds are a little scattered, though... look like you're trying to cover multiple bases with each, but diluting the end result thereby.

I really like furious focus. Thanks for the input. That feat would allow me to power attack and hit almost all of the time.

The reason I chose a varied set of feats/powers was because in the past I noticed that when I play specialized classes, there are times in an adventure where I have nothing to contribute and that sort of takes the fun out of playing for me.

I want a character that would be decent in many types of situations. Any suggestions on how I can be specialized and adaptable?

To have a maximum versatility and still be able to “tank”, I would suggest going fighter for 3 levels. That would grant you armor training 1 so you can move at full speed in mithril full plate, with proficiency.

To have a high mobility as a straight barbarian you have to forget heavy armor (go for mithril breastplate). But the drop in AC is significant. Also, to emphasize your high mobility “striker” aspect, I would either go for the pounce ability (available at level 10 for the barb in the APG) along the beast totem path, or I would go for spring attack/Vital strike combo. That combo is pretty insane in terms of feats for a barbarian though, and I have found it works quite ok with the mentioned barb 7/ fighter 3 build.

Best advice I can give is to stick with barbarian, pick up animal fury, strength surge, maybe knockback, beast totems, and even the raging vitality and superstitious ones. Lots of good stuff in the APG in terms of rage powers, so I would even take extra rage power as a feat more than once.

The only feat I can't see myself taking is power attack. Then maybe side stuff like iron will/toughness/improved initiative.

The morale affecting abilities are nice but won't grow nicely because of you focus on physical abilities.

-Jelly

I just purchased the APG, I will take a look at those beast totem feats. Thank you.

I am new to rpg,s and i am in the process of practicing character building. I am using the opportunity to get to know the rules better.

I am having trouble choosing feats for my paladin. I think at first level he gets 2, one for 1st level and another bonus feat because he is human. So, what do I choose?

I was thinking endurance and die hard. It seems for a new character being able to stabilize on your own would be very good. I a really bad situation if the cleric is unable to help me i can count on my self.

But that seems like a no brainier. I feel like i am missing some thing. i am looking through the core rule book and the list of feats seems small, and most of them do not seem to apply to a paladin.

so any advie for me? I am also going to build a cleric and wizard for practice.

You can take a look at the advanced players guide for additional feats. However, you being new I would recommend that after you have played.

Before you choose your feats, you must decide on the type of role you would want your paladin to fill. Here is some advice:

Do you wish to do damage? Melee or ranged?
If Melee: I would recommend the following feats. Power attack, weapon focus, cleave
Range: Point blank, precise shot, weapon focus (bow)

Do you see yourself as a mounted paladin? Feat choices: Mounted combat, ride by attack

A guardian? The type of paladin that has really high AC and can take abuse. Feat choices: Toughness, shield focus, dodge, combat expertise.

A reach combatant. A paladin that uses a reach weapon: Combat reflexes, combat expertise, power attack

Enduarance, and die hard are good choices, however as a paladin you will only be getting one feat every two levels, so you should really take a look at the feat chains, and start building toward the higher tier feats.

Hello everyone,

I just played my first Pathfinder society game. I have a half-orc barbarian wielding a greataxe.

str 18, dex 14, con 14, int 10, wis 12, cha 8

feat: Power attack

I haven't fully decided on the role I want to fill and could use some advice.

I know I don't want to be specialized in any given area. I would like to deal out a decent amount of damage, as well as tank pretty well.

At the same time, I would like to have some abilities that would allow me to alter or change the battlefied...for example having strength surge and knock back, or knock down (APG), or improved bull rush.

Here are the builds I have in mind and was wondering which one would be the most useful in the most varied of situations.

Build one:
Lvl: Feats/rage powers
1: power attack
2: intimidating glare
3: weapon focus (greataxe)
4: strength surge
5: improved sunder
6: knockback
8: terrifying howl
9: skill focus intimidate
10: surprise attack

Build two:
1: power attack
2: reckless abandon (apg)
3: improved unarmed
4: animal fury
5: improved grapple
6: strength surge
7: toughness
8: knock down
9: improved overrun
10: superstition

I just can't figure out if the above feat/power selections are useful, and in what order they should be selected to maximize the usefulness the character throughout the levels.

Thank you in advance.

Hello everyone,

I posted this in the rules section, but I want to know what the offical pathfinder society ruling is.

Can undead (constructs and elementals) be intimidated in combat and be shaken?

Reason I'm asking is that I have a barbarian that will take the intimidating glare and eventually terrifying howl abilities. Want to know if I should use them against undead, constructs and elementals etc.

thank you in advance.

Have you tried looking around these boards for optimisation guides? I know there aren't any for barbarians per se, but you might get some feedback on your feat selection and so forth from looking at guides to fighters, rangers or paladins.

For example, vital strike is routinely panned as a terrible feat to take. The damage bonus just isn't worth the costs. I would recommend against it.

Instead, if you want to focus on Intimidation, have you thought about Intimidating Prowess? Str is going to be one of your major attributes, so it certainly won't hurt you, plus it means that in a rage, you get an extra +2 bonus from your increased strength. (It also means if you're on a points buy system, you can dump Cha for Str, and still be good at Intimidation).

If you're using the APG, Smash might be a good choice to go with Improved Sunder. It lets you ignore the first 5 (I think) hardness in your sunder attacks, so it's much, much easier to smash armour and metal weapons.

To go back to what you originally said though, you are right than mobility is one of the barbarian's key assets, espeically at low levels before you've got truckloads of magic items. The key is taking advantage of that while still being effective in combat.

Pay close attention to Quandary's advice on Acrobatics and attacks of opportunity, too.

I was thinking vital strike because I can use that on a move and attack, or on a charge. In both those cases I wouldn't be able to full attack. It would be an additional die (or dice) of damage.

I think undead with any type of intelligence, that of an animal at the very least, could be intimidated.

Scenario, your party captures a vampire. He is chained up with silver, held at bay with holy symbols etc. (Btw that causes them to be shaken...correct?)

Could you, by the rules, intimidate the vampire to get information? Could you use diplomacy or bluff to trick them?

If so, then you should be able to intimidate them in combat.

When they say immune to mind affecting, I took that to mean magical effects etc. I don't think intimidate is magical, it is physical...like a hammer.

Does anyone know what the official ruling would be for the Pathfinder Society?

I ask this because I have a barbarian going to take intimidating glare and want to know if I would be restricted with that power against undead, constructs, elementals etc.

Thank you everyone for carrying on this discussion.

Hello everyone,

does intimidate work against undead, constructs, and elementals?

Could they be shaken in combat? Specifically would the barbarian power intimidating glare work on them?

As far as I can tell it doesn't say any where in the rules to argue that they wouldn't.

First, it sounds like you`re miscalculating how Speed affects Jump checks - You use the ´Base Land Speed´ (or I suppose Swim Speed if a Swimmer is jumping out of the water) and don`t double it (to determine bonus to Acrobatics/Jump) if you`re Charging (or 3x/4x it if Running). I may be misinterpreting your statement, though...?

The main thing is that Raging Climber/ Leaper are EASILY replicable via very low level spells / cheap magic items... which are BETTER than even a 20th level Barbarian with these powers... i.e. Spider Climb (or Slippers of) beats the pants off Raging Climber even if it was somehow giving you a +1000 bonus to Climb Checks. Likewise, Jump, Expeditious Retreat, plus Levitate and Fly, and Items replicating such spells are just going to be MUCH more effective than Raging Leaper. You certainly won`t be able to get all those items at very low levels, but also realize that the bonus granted by these Powers is also low at very low levels.

A general speed boost like from Boots of Speed will help your battlefield mobility when you DON`T have to Jump but there is simply alot of ground to cover AND also boosts your Jump checks. Levitate / Fly items are eventually going to be necessary if you don`t want to be dependant on the party Caster using a round`s action to cast Fly on you in-combat (when dealing with Flying enemies), and obviously make Jumping and Climbing almost superfluous.

These Powers, along with Raging Swimmer, just seem like NPC fodder: they´re just not remotely good enough so that 4 levels later you will still be glad you took the power. In the cases of the Climbing and Swimming Powers, they`re ESPECIALLY underwhelming because you don`t even gain a Climb/Swim speed, meaning you can`t even take 5´ steps (for Full Attacks).

At your current level, I`d just recommend keeping Acrobatics maxed out, which combined with your Base Speed will give you good mobility. You can put ranks in Climb for now, to deal with surprise situations where you have to grab on for life and when the...

Hey Quandry that was really helpful.

I think I will take the following feats:
Power attack (1st),improved sunder (3rd), skill focus intimidate (5th), vital strike (7th)

powers:
intimidating glare(2nd), knockback (4th)strength surge (6th), terrifying howl (8th)

I think that gives a nice amount of versatility.

hey all,

I just completed my first pathfinder society mod last night and I was going with a barbarian.

I was looking through the rage powers and was interested in getting raging leaper and possibly raging climber.

I wanted to know if anyone has played a barb before with those powers and how they worked out for you.

In the scenerio we played the bad guys were on higher ground. My barb was able to charge and jump to hit them...mainly because I rolled a 29 jump check. But that got me thinking that one of the main perks of a barbarian is mobility.

With a charge speed of 80 (40 feet base speed x 2) and insane jump bonus, I think my barb could be able to charge in most situtions and close the distance with the enemy.

Is this a viable path to take? Thank you in advance.

@merrick:

Does APG stand for advanced player guide? No I do not have that. Can that be used for pathfinder society game play?

@Calagnar

What does dps stand for? Can bards cast spells with both of their hands filled?

Thank you for the advice, let me take a look at what a two weapon fighting bard would look like. What weapons would you use? Do you use a double weapon?

Hey everyone,

I will be playing my first pathfinder society game next week and I wanted to go with a melee Bard build. Specifically, a bard that can tank in a pinch.

I'm having trouble deciding on what to do with the main stats. I would like to be able to do damage, but would also like to be able to utilize some of the cool bard features. Like knowledge on everything, and buff spells and healing spells.

Half-orc bard 1 (+2 str, fav class bard)

1) Str 16, dex 14, con 14, int 10, wis 8, cha 15

or

2) Str 16, dex 14, con 14, int 12, wis 8, cha 14

or

3) str 18, dex 12, con 14, int 10, wis 8, cha 14

I'm leaning toward the first one, because I can get access to bonus level 3 bard spells at 7th, and can cast haste more often (if I bump cha to 16 at level 4).

Number 2 allows me to have more skill points and higher rolls on knowledge and spellcraft. number 3 allows for a lot of damage.

I'm not looking to be very good at one thing, but pretty decent overall. A bard that can do well in combat, with options with buff spells and inspiring courage.

In addition, can help out by knowing stuff and being good outside of combat.

thank you in advance for any suggestions.

Hi all,

It says in the rule book that at 1st level a bard needs a standard action to start a bardic performance, but then it is a free action every round after to maintain.

does that mean a bard can cast spells and still take a free action to maintain their bardic performance?

Thank you in advance.

Thank you everyone.

We are hoping to start a game next week. Lets see how this works.

hi everyone,

I am in the process of getting a group of friends to join PFS, and I wanted to know if we were allowed to play season 0 mods. We are a nice sized group, about 10 players.

It is fortunate that we have so many people interested in gaming and I thought it would be best to join PFS so that we can rotate judges and have some flexibility on running sessions, perhaps two groups a night or so, depending on schedules.

here are my questions:

1) Can we play season zero mods?
2) Do we need to register our meet ups?

uh I think that basically covers it. Thank you in advance.

It says it only lasts for one round, so if you continue to double move every round, and make successful stealth checks, you should be able to stay hidden enough to find cover.

I don't think it will give offensive advantages for rogues (etc) because it lasts for one round, and you have to take double moves to stay concealed. If anything, it is a great defensive ability, provided you can beat everyone's perception checks.

Casting invisibility is much easier.

But, I'll wait for the errata. I think if I was the judge, I would allow a character to make a stealth attempt with the penalties for moving. If they were moving at half-speed, I would not allow them to use the advantages of the feat because they are purposely not moving at their full speed.

But that would my call.

Hey everyone,

the benefit for lighting stance feat is as follows:

"If you take two actions to move or a withdraw
action in a turn, you gain 50% concealment for 1 round."

Can a character hide when they take two move actions with this feat? They get concealment.

I know I'm late to the conversation, but IMO, the eldritch knight can work well, with a certain amount of planning. For example, three possible characters:

The Combat Bard - this character concept is basically a melee-focused bard (one level in fighter) taking eldritch knight to keep BAB high.

Half-Elf Bard 4/Fighter 1
19 Str (16 +2 race +1 level), 14 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis, 14 Cha
B1- Arcane Strike, Skill Focus (Disable Device)
F1- Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
B2- Power Attack; Versatile Performance (Oratory)
B4- Cleave
Skills: Climb 1 (+8), Disable Device 5 (+10), Knowledge (Local) 2 (+7), Perception 5 (+9), Perform (Dance) 2 (+7), Perform (Oratory) 4 (+9), Spellcraft 2 (+5), Stealth 2 (+7), Use Magic Device 4 (+9)
Spells (CL 4): 1st-4, 2nd-2
Spells Known: dancing lights, daze, detect magic, mage hand, prestidigitation, read magic; animate rope, cure light wounds, hideous laughter, sleep; glitterdust, heroism

Animate rope (and a couple whips), along with sleep are probably the two best spells for a 1st level bard. Add cure light wounds and hideous laughter at 2nd and 3rd level. Heroism is absolutely your number one 2nd-level spell pick; glitterdust can both disable (blind) and reveal hidden/invisible foes. With the above skills, the character can also act as the "face" and fill in for the rogue.

The character can qualify for eldritch knight at bard 7/fighter 1. However, I prefer to wait until bard 9/fighter 1 to gain Inspire Greatness, which is IMO more useful at 10th level than Spell Critical is at 18th level. At bard 9/fighter 1, the character may look like this:

Half-Elf Bard 9/Fighter 1 (all future levels in eldritch knight for BAB +17 at 20th level)
** spoiler omitted **...

Really cool

daverius wrote:

For example, a fighter is great at either soaking up damage, or dishing out damage. However, supernatural attacks can really shut down the fighter...especially with a failed will save etc.

The fighter I put up was better at will saves than the gish that you did (with a re-roll and +1 situational). He had the extra room for feats from his fighter levels, as well as a higher level fighter class ability going towards that.

And again if I wanted to make him a little more even in AC I should have had him using a greatsword. There you would have a PC with the same (slightly better even) will save, same AC (*after* your PC casts shield), and does around twice the expected damage with melee attacks.

Bottom-line is that the gish really needs to try to figure out what they can do right. If they are simply a lesser fighter and lesser wizard then they are two lower level characters that have to share actions (as well as feats, skills, etc).

Multiclassing changed in 3e from true multiclassing to more of a build your own class. Many combinations simply fail in the 'simply add' mechanics and PrCs were introduced as a stop gap fix for it. They did a bad job in 3.x with it, and while the PF PrCs would be alright (in some cases) in 3.x they raised the bar with their base classes.

In short multiclassing and multiclass PrCs have not been given the time and effort that they require.

-James

The fighter you put up had an int of 7, and a cha of 7. I'm very certain that if we dumped certain stats to that extent we would be able to come up with more comparable build.

However, you fighter does bring up an interesting point in that pure fighters and pure wizards do not need that many strong stats, so they are easier to optimize.

Then again, your fighter has no use other than to hit things in combat. Maybe to bash open doors and set off traps.

If it was a combat that involved riding on horses, your fighter would be lacking. If was fight where you had to climb a rockface to take out goblin raiders who were pelting arrows and rocks at you. Your figter would be at a disadvantage, no climbing skills etc. The perception was good.

But in most cases, your fighter will stand up well and lay out a whole lot of hurt, and soak up damage.

All in all, I don't see your fighter being that much more superior than my gish. In a straight one dimensional fight, yea your fighter owns.

Oh and my gish is no where near optimal. As you can observe, other peple have posted much more stronger gish builds.

Are you using the NPC Wealth by Level Guidelines? 'Cause a 5th lvl PC should have 10,500 gp worth of "stuff." The PC WBL chart is on page 399 of the Core Rules.

You know, I think you are right about the wealth. However, the point is for everyone to see the actual physical differences between a full mage, a full fighter, and an eldrith knight build.

I guess it will turn into a discussion on what "role" do you wish to play?

To take a look at exactly how a gish can contribute in an adventure. Also to determine wether it is a poorly balanced choice or not.

I personally think that it would be fun and challenging. I think the EK is versatile and good for a variety situations.

For example, a fighter is great at either soaking up damage, or dishing out damage. However, supernatural attacks can really shut down the fighter...especially with a failed will save etc.

A wizard is pretty versatile, however if they prepared the wrong spells, then they are severely limited. In addition they are squishy.

The EK has the tools to do alright in most situations, even if they did not prepare the right spells, or if they are up against supernatural creatures. They have the spells handy to dispel effects etc.

Okay, I made the following level 5 characters using the following formula:
1) 20 points
2) Human
3) one dump stat of 8
4) gear of roughly 2500 give or take

Human Fighter 1/wiz 4 (diviner) (evocation and enchantment)
starting stats: Str15, dex14, con14, int16, wis 10, cha 8
N medium Humanoid (Human +2 int, favored class wizard)
Int+8 (Dex+2, Imp Int+4, +2 diviner)
Senses: Perception+5 (+5 ranks)
Defense
AC: 17 (+2 dex, +4 mithral chain shirt, +1 smallshield)
HP: 40; 1d10+4d6+10 (+4 favored class, +10 con, 12+7+7+7+7=40)
Fort+5 (Base+3, con+2), Ref+5 (Base+1, dex+2, Weasal+2), Will+4 (Base+4)
Offense:
mw longsword +8 (Bab+3, str+3, Mw+1, wf+1) 19-20x2 1d8+4 (w/arcane strike)

w/ bulls str+arcane strike
mw longsword +10 (bab+3, str+5, mw+1, wf+1) 19-20 x2, 1d8+6 w/ arcane strike

touch attacks +6 (Bab+3, str+3)
Spells:ulimited/4+1/3+1
0-touch of fatigue, detect magic, read magic, ghost sound
1-Grease (DC14), shieldx2, colorspray(DC14), true strike
2-mirror image, see invisibilty, bulls strengthx2
Statsitics:
Str 16, dex 14, con 14, int 16, wis 10, cha 8
Base attack +3, CMB +6, CMD 18
Skills:
Ride +10 (Ranks+5, dex+2, class+3),
Craft armor +11 (ranks+5, int+3, class+3),
Craft weapons+11 (ranks+5, int+3, class+3),
Perception+5 (ranks+5),
Survival+4 (Ranks+1, class+3),
Climb+7 (Rank+1, Class+3, Str+3),
Handle animal+5 (Rank+3, class+3, -1 cha)
Spellcraft+11 (ranks+5, int+3, class+3)

Feats: improved int, power attack, weapon focus longsword, arcane strike, scribe scroll

forwarned (+2 intiative), diviners fortune 6/day +2 bonus to attack rolls, saving throws
Gear: mithral chain shirt, small shield, mw longsword

Arcane spell failure 15%
-----------------------------------------

Human Fighter 5
starting stats: STR 17, Dex 14, con 16, int 10, wis 10, cha 8
N medium Humanoid (Human +2 STR, favored class fighter)
Int+2 (+2 dex)
Senses: Perception+5 (+5 ranks)
Defense
AC: 25 (+9 full plate, +3 heavy shield, +2 dex, +1 dodge)
HP: 54 (5d10+20, 14+10+10+10+10)
Fort:+8 (Base+5, con+3), Ref+3 (Base+1, Dex+2), Will+1 (Base+1)

Offense:
mw battleaxe +12 (Bab+5, Str+4, wt+1, wf+1, mw+1), 1d8+7 (+4 str, +1 wt, +2 ws)
throwing axe+8 (Bab+5, dex+2, wt+1) 1d6+5 (+4 str, +1 wt)

Statsitics:
Str 18, dex 14, con 16, int 10, wis 10, cha 8
Base attack +5, CMB +9, CMD 21
Skills:
Ride+7 (+5 ranks, +3 class, +4 str, -5acp)
Perception+5 (+5 ranks)
Surviva+4 (+1rank,+3 class)
Climb+3 (1 ranks, +3 class, +4 str, -5acp)
Swim+6 (4 ranks, +3 class, +4 str -5acp

Feats: Shield focus, dodge, weapon focus (battleaxe), power attack, cleave, weapon specilization (battleaxe)
Armor training 1, weapon training (axes) 1, bravery+1

Gear: mw full plate, mw heavy shield, mw battleaxe
--------------------------------

Human Wizard 5 (diviner) Opposition schools enchantment, evocation
starting stats: Str11, dex13, con14, int 19, wis 10 cha 8
N Medium Humaniod (Human +2 int, favored class wizard)
Int+7 (+1 dex,+2 diviner, +4 feat)
Senses: Perception+5
Defense
AC: 17(+4 mage armor, +1 rop, +1 dex, +1 dodge)
HP:36 (9+7+7+7+7)
Fort+3 (+1 base, +2 con), Ref+4 (+1 base, +2 weasal, +1 dex), Will+4 (+4 base)

Offense:
Staff+2 (BAB+2) 1d6
mw light crossbow +4 (Bab+2, dex+1 mw+1) 1d8 19-20 x2
Ray+3 (+1 dex, +2 bab)

Spells: unlimited/4+1/3+1/2+1
0-detect magic, read magic, ghost sound, mage hand
1-mage armorx2, true strike, color sprayx2 (DC16)
2-see invisibilty, glitter dustX2 (DC17), bulls strength
3-clariadance/clairvoyance, Hastex2

Statstics:
Str 11, Dex13, con 14, Int 20, wis 10, cha 8

CMB +2 (+2 bab), CMD 13 (+2 bab, +1dex)
Skills:
Knowledge arcana +13 (ranks+5, int+5, class+3)
knowledge relgion +13 (ranks+5, int+5, class+3)
knowledge planes +13 (ranks+5, int+5, class+3)
craft armor +13 (ranks+5, int+5, class+3)
spellcraft +13 (ranks+5, int+5, class+3)
linquestics +13 (ranks+5, int+5, class+3)

Feats: Improved intiative, craft wonderous item, dodge, scribe scroll, brew potion

Gear: Ring of protection, 400 gp in scrolls

Quick question:

For abjuration specialists their specialist ability is:

"Protective Ward (Su): As a standard action, you can create
a 10-foot-radius field of protective magic centered on you
that lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence
modifier. All allies in this area (including you) receive a
+1 deflection bonus to their AC for 1 round."

My question is: Does the deflection bonus to AC last 1 round after use or for the "number of rounds equal to your intelligence modifier?"

The Speaker in Dreams wrote:

Sunder - like disarm, when's this *not* a good idea? Break a weapon = disarmed by default. Or break armor = lower AC.

Well, I agree with everything you wrote except this one. I can think of plenty of reasons that Sunder is *not* a good idea, but the main one is that it's generally a bad idea to sunder the stuff you're going to want to loot.

Sure, sure, sometimes the ogre is just hitting you with a tree branch. Sometimes the orc just has a rusty axe. Those are fine to sunder. But you don't want to sunder the +3 keen vorpal sword - you might just want to loot that instead.

Sadly, the best benefit to sundering is to remove the most dangerous stuff from your enemy. If you're fighting two NPCs, and one has a rusty sword and the other one has a +3 keen vorpal sword, well, that rusty sword isn't much of a threat, so you should sunder the other one to remove that threat - which is exactly the opposite of what you want to find in two pieces after the fight when you get around to the looting.

Also, lots of stuff just attacks with claws and bites and other non-sunderable attacks. Investing feats/items toward a combat maneuver that you can only use some of the time, and often, won't want to use for fear of destroying loot, well, it's just a sucker bet.

I think Sunder has some cool options that many do not consider. Actually, I have not read the pathfinder book fully, but in 3.5 I used to sunder holy symbols on clerics, and spell pouches for wizards.

That usually hinders casters quite a bit.

The one major drawback is that it slows down the game because the DM will need to look through the spell descriptions for spells that do not have the components: DF, M etc.

daverius wrote:

We can do it at Level 5.
20 point buy PF core rules.
GP values for gear are: 2400.
Max hit points at 1st level: 1/2 Die +1 hit point thereafter; Example fighters get 6 hit points + con per level. Mages get 4+1 con per level.

I'll start with a level 5 EK path build. I'm not very good at this.

Human Fighter 1/Wiz 4
N medium Humanoid (Human +2 int)
Int+6
Senses: Perception+5
Defense
AC 16 (+4 mage armor,+2 dex)17 (with aburjation special ability)
HP: 37
Fort+6, Ref+4, Will+5
Offense:
+1 long +7 19-20x2 1d8+4 (twohanded)

w/ bulls str+arcane strike
+1 long sword +9 19-20 x2, 1d8+9 (twohanded)

touch attacks +5
Spells:ulimited/4+1/3+1
0-touch of fatigue, detect magic, read magic, ghost sound
1-Grease (DC14), shield, mage armor, truestrike x2
2-mirror image x2, protection from arrows, bulls strength
Statsitics:
Str 14, dex 14, con 14, int 17, wis 10, cha 10
Base attack +3, CMB +5, CMD+7
Skills:
Ride +10, Craft armor +11, Craft weapons+11, Perception+5, Survival+4, Climb+4, Handle animal+6, Spellcraft+11

Feats: improved int, power attack, weapon focus longsword, arcane strike

Resist energy 5
Protective ward 10 ft, +1 AC 3 rounds, 6/day
Gear: Ring of resistance+1, +1long Sword

Using your format:

Human Fighter 5
N medium Humanoid (Human +2 STR)
Int+6
Senses: Perception+7
Defense
AC 23 (+9 armor,+2 shield, +2 dex)
HP: 49
Fort+6 (4base, 2 CON), Ref+3 (1 base, 2 DEX), Will+5 (1 base, 2WIS, 2Feat) (+6 vs fear, reroll 1/day)
Offense:
MW longsword +13 (5BAB, 5STR, 1WF, 1FTR, 1MW) 19-20x2 1d8+8 (5STR, 2WS, 1FTR)

Power Attacking Longsword +11 19-20x2 +1d8+12 (-2 for +4)

Statsitics:
Str 20, dex 14, con 14, int 7, wis 14, cha 7
Base attack +5, CMB +10, CMD+12
Skills:
Perception+7

Feats: improved initiative, power attack, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, WF: long sword, WS: long sword

Gear: Full Plate, Large Shield, MW Long Sword (You seemed to have 4400gp in gear rather than the 2400 you quoted, so I'm not sure what you're...

I took the money values from the core rule book. I believe pg. 450 or something.

You were correct that I went over my 2400 value limit by having a +1 longsword. Thank you for catching that. To answer your question on what I was getting at...well it was a mistake.

For my stats, let me break them down for you:

Human (+2 int)
STR 14 (5 points)
DEX 14 (5 points)
CON 14 (5 points)
INT 17 (5 points, +2 racial stat boost, +1 level 4 boost)
WIS 10 (0 points)
CHA 10 (0 points)

I acutally forgot to add a weasal familiar for a +2 reflex bonus, and the scribe scroll feat.

Hey everyone. Thanks for the advice and this was an interesting debate. I like the recommendations, such as the mounted eldritch knight etc. I don't think I will be going with a shield build. It sounded neat, but it probably wouldn't work out for the best.

I don't think EK would be useless. I think they look pretty decent. Anyways, I thought we could make some builds and compare. A straight fighter, a straight mage vs an EK build.

We can do it at Level 5, 10, 15, and 20.
20 point buy PF core rules.
GP values for gear are: 2400, 10050, 34800, and 123000 respectively.
Max hit points at 1st level: 1/2 Die +1 hit point thereafter; Example fighters get 6 hit points + con per level. Mages get 4+1 con per level.

I'll start with a level 5 EK path build. I'm not very good at this.

Human Fighter 1/Wiz 4
N medium Humanoid (Human +2 int)
Int+6
Senses: Perception+5
Defense
AC 16 (+4 mage armor,+2 dex)17 (with aburjation special ability)
HP: 37
Fort+6, Ref+4, Will+5
Offense:
+1 long +7 19-20x2 1d8+4 (twohanded)

w/ bulls str+arcane strike
+1 long sword +9 19-20 x2, 1d8+9 (twohanded)

touch attacks +5
Spells:ulimited/4+1/3+1
0-touch of fatigue, detect magic, read magic, ghost sound
1-Grease (DC14), shield, mage armor, truestrike x2
2-mirror image x2, protection from arrows, bulls strength
Statsitics:
Str 14, dex 14, con 14, int 17, wis 10, cha 10
Base attack +3, CMB +5, CMD+7
Skills:
Ride +10, Craft armor +11, Craft weapons+11, Perception+5, Survival+4, Climb+4, Handle animal+6, Spellcraft+11

Feats: improved int, power attack, weapon focus longsword, arcane strike

Resist energy 5
Protective ward 10 ft, +1 AC 3 rounds, 6/day
Gear: Ring of resistance+1, +1long Sword

Hey everyone,

I was interested in making an eldritch knight and wanted to hear some suggestions.

Gonna go with the 20 point build.

Here's what I was thinking.
Human (+2 int)
Stats:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, int 16, wis 10, cha 10

Level 1: ftr 1
Feats: Shield focus, improved shield bash, dodge

Level 2: ftr1/wiz1
Spells to be picked would be buffs and battle control spells

Level 3: ftr1/wiz2
Feat: The arcane failure reducing feat.

Will take wizard levels until eldritch knight is available.

The idea is to use the shield as my weapon (and defense) and keep the other hand free to cast spells.

I do not know which school to specalize in or what spells to select, or what other feats to take.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be great.

Sean FitzSimon wrote:

Ok, so I went to the game last week with my shiny new bard and watched as 2 chain devils tore him limb from limb. This particularly awful display of evil highlighted a major weakness of our party: a lack of battlefield control.

Before I head into all of this, I want to make a few things clear: First, I'm not asking which is better, but instead asking which is better for my group. Secondly, seriously, please don't turn this into a debate about which class is more powerful. Now, with that said, here's what the party is currently running with:

Dwarven Barbarian: Damage, damage, damage. He fancies himself a "battlefield controller" with feats like stand still and lunge, but generally he just hits stuff. Hard.
Elven Fighter: Fighting with a glaive and the feat Short Haft from the PHB2, she's got awesome reach and area control, but like the Barbarian she's a one trick pony: hit stuff hard.
Human Sorcerer (Air Bloodline): A blaster focusing on area of effect spells. This is her first true caster, and she's ignoring a lot of the subtleties of arcane magic. As such, she's not providing *any* utility or buffs to the party.
Changeling Warlock: Another damage dealer, but instead focused on single target ranged attacks. He uses his eldritch glaive every once in a while, as to increase his damage, but all in all he's a glass cannon. He provides some minor utility (an at-will shatter gets us through most locks), but generally sticks to the damage dealing.
NPC Cleric: Run mostly by the DM, I agreed to take the leadership feat to give us access to some grade A healing. Her job is to hang out in the flank and offer much needed healing, but isn't really bringing much else to the table.

So, as you can see, my party has damage dealing covered quite well. What I'm looking for is a character to cover the major gaps of the party: Buffing/Debuffing, Battlefield Control, and Utility casting. I'm torn between druid and wizard.

As a druid I'd take the

...

Why not skip druid or wizard and go Bard. You'll have the buffs, debuffs, healing, and control spells.

In addition your party will have a face, possibly someone to find traps with your skill points and divination spells.

You know, I'm reading everyone's post and it seems that everyone is forgetting that your barbarian can get healed.

I mean of course if you go up against an oober tough baddie, your character probably will die, however this a group game. Count on a healer.

I like the barbarian the way it is. I ran through some builds, and it takes thinking, but some of the abilities are really cool.

I mean, you can do some really cool stuff, like with strength surge, you can overrun practically anything (if you have the feats). A level 6 barb, with improved overrun + strength surge can have a CMB of +23.

Str 24 (w/ rage and +2 str gloves) +7 BAB+6, Strength surge+6 greater overrun +4.

I mean that is pretty cool. Yea you can only do it once, but that can be a fight ender by knocking the oober baddie down prone And get a flank.

About the RP issue. If you Role-play a dumb barbarian that rages, doesn't back down, and fights on no matter what. Then of course your character is going to die at some point. That's good Rping, maybe not the best character concept.

I like the rage powers that gives you many limited options in combat. Should I use surprise accuracy, powerful blow, or strength surge or not? Should I enter guarded stance, or leap over the enemy fighters to land next the caster? (I mean with raging leaper, a barbarian can leap anywhere really, especially at higher levels)

Plus barbarians have a whole lot of hit points. Either way, sometimes the dice do not work in your favor and you get mutiple crits. In all cases, the situations that everyone has talked about, with regards to barbs dying horribly, happens to all classes equally.

Another way to go is Bbn3/Sor3(Draconic bloodline)/Dragon Disciple4/EK10. If you start with an 18 STR, +6 enhancement, +5 inherent, +5 levels, +2 racial, +4 rage +4 from Dragon Disciple and +6 size from casting Giant Form that's 50 str or 20 modifier. As a Large giant (say Fire Giant) you can wield a large Falchion for 2d6+30 base damage. With power attack (BAB 17)and a +5 weapon that's +37 to hit and 2d6+50 damage.

So it can be done. Roused anger wouldn't be useless at level 17, it allows you to rage while fatigued.

Even with tireless rage, if someone hits you with a spell that makes you fatigued, you wouldn't be able to rage, unless you have roused anger.

it basically allows you to ignore the fatigued condition.

question:

If you take take "roused anger" as a rage power, would that allow you to use certain rage abilities twice in a combat?

For example:

Strength Surge can only be used once per rage. However, in a combat you can rage, use strength surge, then end your rage. You'll be fatigued...but roused anger allows you to rage again, even if you are fatigued.

Does that mean you can use strength surge again? Ending and starting your rage are two free actions. So...

Round 1: You rage (free action) move and grapple someone using strength surge.

Round 2: End your rage (free action) Rage again (roused anger free action) Pin your opponent using strength surge.

Would that work? Only drawback is you will be exhausted, but hopefully all the baddies will be dead.

Hello everyone,

I just discovered Pathfinder and I am thrilled. I haven't heard or read anything with regards to adding benefits for Bards using instruments. So here are some different things I thought up.

Replace “Inspire Courage” with "Performance Path".

At first level a Bard may choose a “Performance Path” from the following list: No instrument (Dance, comedy, oratory, singing), Winds (Flutes, pipes, etc,) Strings (Lutes, guitars etc), Percussion (drums, bongos, etc). The bard may choose the same or different path every five levels, and can combine bonuses at later levels by utilizing different performance paths at the same time (ie. A singing and drum playing bard). To be affected, Allies must be able to hear or see the bard. The effect lasts as long as the bard continues to perform and lasts for 5 rounds after the bard has stopped.

No Instrument:
1st level. +1 to attack and damage rolls. +1 bonus to resist charm and fear effects. 5th level, +2 to attack, damage and saves vs. charm and fear effects. 11th level, +3 17th level, +4.

Winds:
1st level. +1 dodge bonus to AC, and +5 feet movement +1 reflex save bonus vs. Area effects. 5th Level, +2 dodge bonus to AC, and +10 feet of movement. +2 reflex save bonus vs. Area effects. 11th Level, +3 Dodge, and Reflex bonus +15 ft of movement. 17th Level, +4 dodge and reflex bonus, +20 feet movement.

Strings:
1st level, +1 bonus to spell DC, round or minute duration (not hour). 5th Level, +2 bonus to spell DC, Round or minute duration, 11th Level, +3 bonus to spell DC, round or minute duration, 17th level, +4 bonus to spell DC, round or minute duration.

Percussion:
1st Level, DR 1/-, and +1 bonus to fort saves vs, 5th Level, DR 2/- and +2 bonus to fort saves, 11th Level, DR 3/- and +3 bonus to fort saves, 17th Level, DR 4/- and +4 bonus to fort saves.