pain4gains's page

pain4gains wrote:

The main idea was the sillyness that the feats in no way bind it purely to melee combat. However, they would work perfectly with thrown weapons like daggers or axes.

I also wouldn't find these feats in any way unbalanced to use as i proposed. The balancing act of strength, dexterity, hit and feats keep it from being horribly over powered.

Sure they do. The only ranged weapons you can use in your offhand would be a hand crossbow, to which you cannot add your str bonus.

do you not consider thrown weapons as ranged? also, slings work in the offhand.

The main idea was the sillyness that the feats in no way bind it purely to melee combat. However, they would work perfectly with thrown weapons like daggers or axes.

I also wouldn't find these feats in any way unbalanced to use as i proposed. The balancing act of strength, dexterity, hit and feats keep it from being horribly over powered.

Both feats make no mention of melee combat, and it is established that you can used a ranged weapon in each hand as if TWF. So wouldn't this mean that if, say, a ranger was shooting a pistol from each hand his offhand gun would apply his strength as a damage modifier? Also, he would deal 1d10+ 1+1/2 his strength modifier if he hits with both main and offhand pistols?

If you disagree that this works as i've displayed, please provide some sort of quote to support that arguement.

I had an obese halfling monk once (see his character portrait here). We called him Floating Mountain due to his sheer size and ready ability to jump over everyone's heads with ease.

correct. Thats only a 14 str. Min weight and a 16 str, a halfling female can lift over 6 times her body weight over head.

Where a half-ogre, with a 22 str can lift an impressive 520lbs over head, its only a little over 2 and a half times her body weight.

As far as the super mount thread goes, sure you can get a dragon, but i prefer the idea of a labrador that can chew a dragon to death. But sure from a power standpoint something that can fly like a griffon would be great for an archer type character.

OP if you go the supermount route, i suggest trying to balance mount power with personal power to keep cheese to a min but ensure strength.

If you can get Halfling Outrider Oked, your too cool for school. Pally + a level of beastmaster then outrider. You end up with a puppy that eats dragons.

If your doing melee, consider monk/paladin. Your a defensive dynamo.

Your AC at level 2 is strong,

10 base
+1 size
+ dex
+ wis
+1 dodge

Your saves are outright beefy, you have evasion at level 3, and as you level you gather a staggering amount of immunities. Defense wise you have no true weakness.

Looking through it, i gotta say just seems like too much going on to be a smooth class to play.

DM: "Ok jon, what do you do?"

Jon: " Give me a minute...<thirty minutes of reading> um i put XYZ on my weapon"

I mean you have spellcasting, the dwimmers, trapfindering, a familiar type ability, and then all the other item related feats and abilities.

Definetly needs trimming i think and some more work on wording.

Look at the http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/artificer

has no spellcasting, but makes free items that emulate spells. Focuses on crafting skills and feats, and altering the effects of activation items.

As far as the art, very nice job. I personally picture an artificer type character as a young blacksmith thats sick of making weapons and armor for others and thinks he can do a better job with his gear.

pain4gains wrote:

I would suggest looking at the artificer. At level five, your kinda like a sorcerer in that you have a very small selection of spells you can cast 4 times a day each.

HOWEVER, you get 3/4 bab, all your necessary creation feats as class feats, access to both divine and arcane lists, and custom magic items.

Basically your overall ability matters what you decide to make your items do, and what items you make yourself. If you get yourself some boots that cast expedious retreat, enlarge person, and bull's strength on you 4 times a day, and a +2-3 Longspear I don't see the average fighter doing far better then you. And hell, stuff gets shady, toss of a fireball or 2 and put the fighter in his place.

Artificers spend gold to get just a few of the abilities of a Wizard or Sorcerer, making Wizards and Sorcerers better in all ways. Heck, considering that a Wizard or Sorcerer can just take item creation feats, he can even have more magic items than an Artificer since he's not paying gold to use level-appropriate spells. Add a little UMD, and a Wizard or Sorcerer can even make items using divine spells from scrolls.

The 3/4 BAB is also pointless at those levels. It's literally a 1-2 point difference which you might not even notice.

Basically, at higher levels an Artificer can do some broken things if you rDM is not paying attention. Otherwise, it's a terrible class more suited to an NPC you get with Leadership.

Its free for their weird science creations. 3/4bab is hit, which any way you slice it is important in combat. Sure, its only a difference of +1 at level 6, but remember that at level the +2 hit bonus from giving someone bull's strength can be a major difference. Every little bit helps.

The point is the artificer also can make any item, starting at a low level, and doesnt need to spend feats on them. He can put his leveling feats into combat abilities, where a wizard or sorcerer needs to invest his leveling feats into creation feats. He can also dismantle random items and make specific items. Meaning he gets the exact item he wants sooner. How is the artificer spending money to use level appropriate spells? He just needs a UMD check to emulate.

Really not seeing how any of that post matters. Sure, the wizard or sorcerer could pick up levels of umd, but it's not going to really work for most wizards and is a sorcerer going to spend his one of his 2-3 skills on umd? So the sorc can UMD divine scrolls that he what? found/bought? While the artificer can make a divine (WS)item he can use multiple times a day, make a divine wand, make a divine staff, or even write up those divine scrolls that the sorcerer is buying.

Again, its power is limited by player intelligence and creativity. That may explain why you think it's weak.

Also, don't throw out the fact and artificer works well as a skill monkey.

I would suggest looking at the artificer. At level five, your kinda like a sorcerer in that you have a very small selection of spells you can cast 4 times a day each.

HOWEVER, you get 3/4 bab, all your necessary creation feats as class feats, access to both divine and arcane lists, and custom magic items.

Basically your overall ability matters what you decide to make your items do, and what items you make yourself. If you get yourself some boots that cast expedious retreat, enlarge person, and bull's strength on you 4 times a day, and a +2-3 Longspear I don't see the average fighter doing far better then you. And hell, stuff gets shady, toss of a fireball or 2 and put the fighter in his place.

If your looking for a race to explain who made them i think grey dwarves are your best choice. Their stoneworkers, and would have reason to make mazes, protecting the entrances to keeps, stashes, or mines. They keep slaves, easily explaining the existance of minotaurs in the mazes.

IF your looking for slaves or underlings for a minotaur, i would go with undead. It makes sense in a maze because most undead don't need feeding and can move in the same areas as most humanoids.

Infact, that sounds like an awesome backstory for a minotaur character. Minotaur that was a slave to grey dwarves, and used necromancy to populate and work the maze he was charged with guarding.

pain4gains wrote:

the thing is you need to consider, is that is only at high levels. When wizards and sorcerers end up with 9th lvl spell+ other crazy stuff. And i assume that an item with multiple spells on it takes up more of his "wierd science" slots. Sure i can have a set of gloves that shoots off 5 4th level spells 11 times a day. But the first time i use it after number 11 in a single day im faced with a DC 28 check. and if that item is lost/destroyed, the character basically is without its main power until it gets 64 hours to complete a new device.

The DC starts at 30 and goes up by 5 every time you use it beyond the limit for 5 spells in an weird science item.

Ah, yes your correct.

Still would like to see some weight/item type rules. Also was thinking about save DCs. Is it like wands, where it is based off the min stat needed to cast it? Does the artificer actually need to invest in any casting stats? I mean, sure, int and cha play into his class skills but considering great access to magical items and loads of free feats it makes it very unneccesary to boost these stats high.

If this all plays out to be how it seems, an artificer could very well have the same stats as a fighter or ranger, specific magical equipment early and potent magical aid.

Also, this is a class that has its power curve that is influenced heavily based on player creativity and DM ruling.

the thing is you need to consider, is that is only at high levels. When wizards and sorcerers end up with 9th lvl spell+ other crazy stuff. And i assume that an item with multiple spells on it takes up more of his "wierd science" slots. Sure i can have a set of gloves that shoots off 5 4th level spells 11 times a day. But the first time i use it after number 11 in a single day im faced with a DC 28 check. and if that item is lost/destroyed, the character basically is without its main power until it gets 64 hours to complete a new device.

If anything, the difficulty of using an item needs to ramp up higher when it has more spells in its use.

Looking at it in the low-mid levels it seems like its a fairly balanced class. Lets look at say level 5. Wizards and clerics/druids are getting 3rd level spells. So is the artificer, who gets a single third level spell he can use 4 times a day, and that he basically cannot change until he has 12 free hours to make a new device. Again, its an item that can be destroyed/taken, which is a disadvantage.

I think what it really needs is a guide to item weight. You add in the fact that an item weighs 5lb per spell level, and that after X wieght it can only be some items, and after an extreme weight it needs to be something weilded.

At 5 lbs a spell level, 40lbs of extra gear to lug around at level 5 is an issue.

Hit equivelents

20/x2 = 20

19-20/x2 = 21

18-20/x2 = 22

20/x3 = 21

19-20/x3 = 23

20/x4 = 22

17-20/x2 = 24

15-20/x2 = 26

19-20/x3 = 23

17-20/x3 = 28

19-20/x4 = 25

The falcata (19-20/x3) is the best weapon for overall crit damage output, but 18-20/x2 weapons(rapier, falcion, scimitar) are close behind in output, and also are the best for crit based abilites.

cheers guys. they are going to get it as a reward in a border pose so no smiths nearby. i might however put a smith in the next city (they are heading there anyway) that will resize it if they help him with x problem

Well if it's normal or masterwork fullplate, they need to pay to resize it to any player.

If its any magical armor or any normal/masterwork of any type other then full plate, it doesnt need to be resized.

SIZE AND MAGIC ITEMS
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.

There may be rare exceptions, especially with racial specific items.

Armor and Weapon Sizes: Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01–30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31–90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91–100).

From the 3.5 SRD.

I tend to rule that magic weapons and armor will resize themselves for anyone within 1 step of their original size. Otherwise, A) whats the point of magic and B) its such an additional PitA that fewer people would play small characters.

magic armor resizes, and non magical can be resized for a cost.

very nice post.

The concepts i was looking at was either that the party is actually the spawn of one vampire, who either uses them agains a different "family" or even to destroy his master become the patriach.

The other concept was a party chasing up the heirachy of a large chain of vampires to destroy an ancient founder, and was think as to how wide the network could potentially be.

Maybe a limiting factor such as "spawn must have atleast 1 HD less then their creater" which would limit the chain to only 20 layers in a non epic campaign.

Though that would still be a couple hundred individuals.

Does the Vampire's "Create Spawn" ability basically mean he can spawn an endless chain of minions under themselves?

Such as a vampire with ten HD having 2 minions with 10 HD, which both have 2 minions with 10 HD.. ect ect?

Also, the first level of spawn are under the complete control of the master vampire. Are the next waves also? do they have to protect their direct creater, but not his?

Example: A group of 4 PCs(4 HD each) are the creations of an 8 HD vampire, who is likewise the minion of another vampire(16 HD). They are in complete servitude to their direct master. Are they also under the control of the 16HD vampire or are they considered as having free will when it comes to that creature?

Try a mastermind Vampire Monk 12. Grappling Monster, who basically can eat up any player, and then scatter before hes in danger. Add in 48 hd worth of vampire minions or vampire spawn and i would say that you easily can harrass a party.

Hmm, infact, each of these "lieutenant" minions can have minions.

SO an endless network vampires. See what a group of 4-6 PCs can do.

Ok, sounds like i just came up with my next campaign hook.

GRRR NOOO! huge post gone..

well anyways, something like a 6/9 battle sorcerer/dragon disciple

Breathe weapon, flying, spells, strong, loaded with AC and different diffences.

also, seeing we are talking more Gish then EK, a simple build is just get your DM to let you use Sorcerer Variant: Battle Sorcerer

BS 10 / DD 10 nets you an interesting mix of abilities, and actually does give you some rather stout constant stats and numbers.

Consider that you can cast in light armor, get +3 natural armor, all the defensive spells you want, and some hardy hitpoints and you could potentially tank for a group that doesnt have a dedicated melee.

pain4gains wrote:

We're comparing head to head. 1v1 gish wins, simple.

Umm no we're not.

We're talking about how useful a gish is and they aren't all that useful.

They don't do a good job as the party wizard, about on par with the bard minus skills and abilities.

They don't do well as the party fighter. About on par with a rogue.

-James

i would love to see how a character that has 17 caster levels, bab 16, and the ability to do attack rotations + spells in same round is SO far worse then either the fighter or wizard. Sure the wizard gets spells before you, but hes squishier and once out of spells is useless. The fighter gets a higher BaB, but he doesnt have the buffs you do, and you have better defenses.

Sure, i wouldnt want to tank all the time on a gish, but thats not what they are there for, they are dps.

I think laughing goblin hit the nail on the head. Im not trying to be mean, just saying for combat, that pure is better.

For the entire social interaction scene, i think you might be better served with staying pure bard even because of their utility spells and different class abilities. If your interested in making him a better combat class than that maybe go into duelist or shadowdancer.

For the skills loremaster or pathfinder chronicler both can interesting paths.

pain4gains wrote:

a CR 20 creature is a mook? 1v1, a CR 20 is considered a hard or epic challenge. As far as the dragon buffing itself, thats 2 rounds its not attacking. 3 if it does cast haste. So that comes down to who has the jump on who.

Also, please note the touch AC...5... am i really going to use my normal attack routine in a situation where i could aim an energy sub. cold meteor swarm at it? 8d6 blud. and 24d6 cold that he's going to take double from. 196 on average, of 377 hp. Tho, you could of course use the suggested style here, and still have a strong chance of critting in that round and hitting with this spell.

As far as using a crossbow, it would decent when combined with ammunition production while leveling but the full 15-20 crit range is your goal once you have the capstone.

No a CR of equal level isn't hard or epic...it's EQUAL footing. A CR 21 is hard...cr 22 is epic (and should generally result in your death if your solo). And mage armor should be up ALL DAY LONG. So no, one or two round...the same that YOU need.

Okay your assuming that the dragon will fail it's save. It has +14 reflex...your DC for 9th level spell is...? 10+9(spell level)+3(base int)+3(stat item) = DC 25. I'm not gonna give you the 4 wishes to bump that to 27 since your already pretty much breaking WBL anyways. That means to take 24d6 cold, I need to roll less then 11 four times. And vulnerability is an extra 50%...not double. And energy sub is not core PF...if we're allowing non core stuff, then the dragon can have the energy immunity spell and just laugh at your cold damage. nd with ac of 48, your tactic to average a crit a round doesn't work as well. Not only that, but if you fail to crit in a couple round, your dead.

And there is no PF core method of getting 15-20 ranged weapon crit.

actually, CR 20 is normal threat for a group of 4 level 20 characters. a single character makes it a threat of hard/epic. Go scan back through your SRD.

Yea, im assuming that it's going to have a hard time making those saves. DC 25, and the dragon gets a -4 on it because it was targeted at it. So it needs to roll 15+ 4 times. And that is without factoring any sort of feats.

ALSO, considering what i posted here was a fast mock up, i wouldn't get so worried about what i put for stats. Considering i didnt list feats, skills, ect. It was a rough mock up.

OH, and Chakram, Crystal was listed in the SRD. I would say anything included in the SRD is accepted core material.

Oh, again, mock up. Hence the title. I didn't say "perfected system and concept" but musings and ideas. As in just messing around with the concept and looking for additions, suggestions and help. Not constant "oh you can't do this because im going to stubbornly refer to a rough draft that is only there to show the basic idea"

pain4gains wrote:

Mixing sorc and bard is just a studip idea. Really? cantrips? you can cast them an endless amount of times, and really how can you even come up with...

obvious troll is obvious

your suggesting that completely gimping yourself in comparison to a lvl 4 bard or 4 sorc for cantrips makes sense and im the troll? Remember, trolling is saying something to provoke reactions. The truth, is simply that cantrips dont add up to a hot pile of nothing.

What's stopping the Rogue from simply quaffing a potion and flying up to the rope and climbing in the window to CDGSA your gish?

And you haven't responded to how your gish would combat an archer fighter full attacking with a bow.

the fact that the gish just teleported to his house in the hills when he got in the extra-dimensional space? but yea...

as far as against an archer, are we talking a fighter who broke out a bow because he cant reach the gish, or a fighter specialized in ranged combat? If situation one, i would say rely on the fact that hes going to do far more damage to the fighter in the same amount of time, because hes doing full attack actions and casting spells.

If situation 2, cast a windwall and use spells to harrass the fighter. Or just get involved up close with the fighter, and make good use of AoEs against him whenever he goes to use a bow in melee range, or moves out of melee range.

Gish overpowers a fighter because his options simply are vast.

As a 4th level sorcerer, I would have lost out on 12 skill points, plus the Versatile Performance which provides the equivalent of another 6 skill points for Bluff and Disguise, and another skill point in every Knowledge field. I wouldn't have been able to help everybody else clear duergar out (that may have made a difference with them surrounding a guy with only 2 hp left), plus I have six 1st level spells to choose from, including Expeditious Retreat and Feather Fall. Plus I can Fascinate, Distract, or Countersong if I need to, and I can Inspire Competence.

As a 4th level sorcerer I'd have five spells plus Burning Hands. Only one of them would be 2nd level, and if I had wanted Dolorous Sadness that would have to be it.

In 3.5, the Bard would be ahead on hit points, which doesn't happen in Pathfinder. A 4th level Sorcerer would have saving throws +1 +1 +4, while my character gets +1 +3 +5. On the other hand, the way Pathfinder works, having 10 cantrips on hand is a big advantage over only have 6 of them on hand.

So a 4th level sorcerer could probably cast Mage Armor, Unseen Servant, Grease, and Dolorous Sadness, and run around with a longspear stabbing people. But would lose out on all the other things she could do.

A fey sorcerer gets a laugh ability anyways. unseen servant trick is kinda lame, and less then worthwhile. I wouldnt allow it in a companion of mine because it takes some sort of effort to hand back and forth an item. also considering that you could simply use a light crossbow and fire it once a round anyways. Grease isn't a super effective spell in the first place, and your use was pretty pointless in your example anyways. So instead of wasting 3 spells, you could use entangle(free lvl 3 fey spell) burning hands and shocking grasp, a lvl utility spell, and a 2nd level utility or offensive ability.

Mixing sorc and bard is just a studip idea. Really? cantrips? you can cast them an endless amount of times, and really how can you even come up with more then 6 you even care about?

When you hit level 5, your weaker then the 4th level sorc. by ALOT. Pointless. If you want to play far sub par, thats a problem your party needs to deal with. But dont try and make it look like a good idea

pain4gains wrote:

Tanis wrote:

pain4gains wrote:

gish vs. fighter is a non comparison in a 1v1 situation, because fighters cant fly. Simple as that.

What about a potion of Fly? Broom/Carpet of Flying? Half-Fiend template? Half-Dragon template? Winged Boots?

Those are all thing your putting in to counter just one situation. Templates are making you weaker overall, the potion can be dispelled, and the carpet/broom you could be knocked off of...fall damage is a b*&!*.

The gish could fly. Normal fighter can't compare to that.
The gish could cast displacement. Normal fighter can't cope with that.
The gish could drop an iron wall on the fighter.. fighter? nope.
The gish could teleport away, prep, teleport back in and attack. Fighter can't.

Heck the gish could simply suggest the fighter go polish his armor for a few hours while the gish has some lunch, cleans himself, buffs, positions, sets the field, and then launches his attack.

Fighters simply don't stand a chance against a higher level caster.

Neither the fighter nor gish can see a rogue that is using fast stealth to track them to where the sleep and doing a CDG...so obviously they are the best and they win...right?

ah but how is the rogue following the gish if he simply flys up, hits a rope trick and sleeps inside? can the rogue sneak vertically?

Oh yeah dex should be 2 lower. The ability of the transmutation school gives you an enhancement bonus...so it doesn't stack with a stat boost item.

As for AC...your level 20...a CR 20 critter is a mook. And given that many of these critters (either at that level or adjusted to that level...because lets be honest here, there are exactly 6 cr 20+ citters in the beastiary) can cast spells/have spell like abilities...that 39 AC can jump much higher. The gold dragon for example has 39 ac...unless it has it's mage armor up...which really, why shouldn't it...then it's AC 43. With shield that is 47. Haste, 48.

Rapid shot does not work with daggers. They are not ranged weapons. Look at the weapon chart, only weapons listed under ranged weapons can be used for rapid shot. Daggers are simple light melee weapons...that can be thrown.

That said...with rapid reload, I can't see why a light or hand crossbow can't be used with your idea.

your right about the transmute deal, was over tired while putting this together i guess.

a CR 20 creature is a mook? 1v1, a CR 20 is considered a hard or epic challenge. As far as the dragon buffing itself, thats 2 rounds its not attacking. 3 if it does cast haste. So that comes down to who has the jump on who.

Also, please note the touch AC...5... am i really going to use my normal attack routine in a situation where i could aim an energy sub. cold meteor swarm at it? 8d6 blud. and 24d6 cold that he's going to take double from. 196 on average, of 377 hp. Tho, you could of course use the suggested style here, and still have a strong chance of critting in that round and hitting with this spell.

As far as using a crossbow, it would decent when combined with ammunition production while leveling but the full 15-20 crit range is your goal once you have the capstone.

I removed a post that was excessively hostile.

sorry about that, i got roped in by his trolling.

Another thing i've been thinking about is you could potentially do the entire chain of TWF with kukri for the same high attack rate/crit range style.

Now another thing is the change to creating magic items. There is no longer an XP cost(or atleast thats the way it seems to be)

So you could easily be crafting targeted ammo on a per-mission basis.

+1 bane weapons(50 ammunition) is 8000 gold. At cap, thats a pitance. Add on a casting of greater magic weapon(+4) and a casting of flame arrow, and you got what is equal to a +6 weapon, at the cost of a +2.

This is also a good strategy for arcane archer.

pain4gains wrote:

gish vs. fighter is a non comparison in a 1v1 situation,

Sorry, we seem to be playing a different game.

I don't have characters fight in arenas 1 against 1.

Instead they tend to adventure in groups against either monsters or other groups.

The gish is weak. He has to balance far too much to be moderate. Meanwhile Paizo has increased the power of single classed fighters, which further decreases the relative power of the gish character.

-James

We're comparing head to head. 1v1 gish wins, simple. Encounters as a group are harder to judge and also dependant completely on the enemy.

Large groups of smaller enemies, gish wins. He's got the AoE spells to deal with them quickly.

Single target, non magical. Gish, for the same reason hes got the advantage over a fighter.

Single target, magical(beholder, mindflayer) fighter. He simply has less to worry about from those types of enemies in most cases.

Multiple mixed targets? who the hell knows.

But the head to head comparison is the easiest to do. Gish beats fighter, cleric equals gish, both are stronger then the bard.

Caineach wrote:

In other gish threads I have compared the Cleric's spell list to the wizard's. Wizards get better defensive abilities. At low: leves Mirror Image, blur, displacement. At higher levels: stoneskin and flame shield. The cleric gets none of these. Even his buffs lose out at later levels to standard magic items, and both the Cleric and Gish will be using the same armor. The only difference is the shield, which is more likely that a cleric will have, since they are proficient with fewer 2 handers.

For offensive capability, the cleric gets no buffs that are the equivalent to the various form spells except riteous might, which is only ballanced against the lower end. Wizards also get access to Haste, which makes up for much of the benefit of Divine Power. Compare their lists. The wizard comes out ahead for a self-buffer, they just don't power up their pure damage straight up with spells and use other abilities like arcane strike to ballance themselves out.

The problem is a lot of the wizards buffs are minutes/ level or rounds/ level and unbuffed eldritch knight's martial capacity is pretty mediocre.

Divine power is also rounds/ level but it gives multiple abilities in a single spell. Going from zero to hero takes the cleric 1 standard action. Also, if the wizard gets hit by greater dispel he's going to be stripped naked in a hurry.

But the Gish has the advantage of arcane spells yet again. The gish has the option to use his spells to give himself time to buff. He can either fly up, or DD away, or become invisible, or suggest the enemy or teleport away or mislead, or any number of things to give himself time. Where the cleric lacks the ability to copy these tactics, and the fighter has no way to counter them.

CoD are very strong. And a good Gish is their equal in many ways.

I'll agree that a 4th level sorceror would have more arithmetic power, but it seems you're plenty useful where you're at.

I love the unseen servant shenanigans. I love it so much. I'm alight with ideas now.

Tho im curious, isnt there some sort of action involved in handing off an item to the servant. I would say its equivilent to drawing a weapon. And at that point it's similiar to using a series of loaded crossbows. Quick draw with a few crossbows loaded with different magic bolts can be quite effective for a low level caster with a good dex.

pain4gains wrote:

Those are all thing your putting in to counter just one situation. Templates are making you weaker overall, the potion can be dispelled, and the carpet/broom you could be knocked off of...fall damage is a b@%%*.

um, pretty much every melee character i've ever played has at least one potion of fly once i've got past 3rd lvl. As far as templates making you weaker...i respectfully disagree. Half-Dragon is a CR +2 template that gives you a free class level at 6th lvl. So for 1 lvl you get +8 Str, +6 Con, wings, etc. That seems like a fair trade to me.

pain4gains wrote:

The gish could fly. Normal fighter can't compare to that.

The gish could cast displacement. Normal fighter can't cope with that.
The gish could drop an iron wall on the fighter.. fighter? nope.
The gish could teleport away, prep, teleport back in and attack. Fighter can't.

Heck the gish could simply suggest the fighter go polish his armor for a few hours while the gish has some lunch, cleans himself, buffs, positions, sets the field, and then launches his attack.

Fighters simply don't stand a chance against a higher level caster.

You have a point about the suggestions and buffs. Wizards are much more versatile than a fighter, no question. But to say that they simply don't stand a chance, well that's not so solid, IMO.

ok, gish casts fly and takes off. Fighter drinks potion and moves up near the gish. Gish flys away and easily dispells the low caster level fly potion off the fighter. Fighter his the ground. Stands as a move action and does what? Ranged attack if he has quickdraw? otherwise hes using that turn to get a weapon prepared to attack the gish. Who next turn either hits the fighter with a ray, debuff, control, or ranged attack. Gish simply outpower fighters by a vast margin that really makes everything but a fluke a sure win.

ummovable rod is just sweet. 2 of them is an endless ladder, bridge, and hiding spot(climb to the ceiling then use them to hang above a patrol).

Use it to hold that door shut. Get your super duper magic glue, and stick the rod to things. Enemies epic greatsword...boom, immobile. The enemies head...boom, fixed in space. Feed the rogue to that dragon, he hits the button and leaves the dragon with a hard choice. Stand in the same spot, or rip himself a new set of holes.

So your EK doesn't cast level 7-9 spells then....

um..he has 17 caster level, which means hes perfectly capable of 9th level spells. You do know that you only need a 19 right? so +3tome bud. Also, could always drop your dex by 2 and and be fine. Really, that was just a pointless post.

pain4gains wrote:

gish vs. fighter is a non comparison in a 1v1 situation, because fighters cant fly. Simple as that.

What about a potion of Fly? Broom/Carpet of Flying? Half-Fiend template? Half-Dragon template? Winged Boots?

Those are all thing your putting in to counter just one situation. Templates are making you weaker overall, the potion can be dispelled, and the carpet/broom you could be knocked off of...fall damage is a b!@!&.

The gish could fly. Normal fighter can't compare to that.
The gish could cast displacement. Normal fighter can't cope with that.
The gish could drop an iron wall on the fighter.. fighter? nope.
The gish could teleport away, prep, teleport back in and attack. Fighter can't.

Heck the gish could simply suggest the fighter go polish his armor for a few hours while the gish has some lunch, cleans himself, buffs, positions, sets the field, and then launches his attack.

Fighters simply don't stand a chance against a higher level caster.

You can't crit on command.

You're not giving up the +5 from arcane strike once for the crit, you have to give up on it forever.

Also, bards get more skills then you give credit to. Versatile performer.

My issue with EK is that it doesn't come into fruition until a lot later, whereas bard and cleric START good.

arcane strike doesnt stack with a magic weapon.. meaning the bonus it provides is less then that of casting Greater Magic weapon a few hours before a fight. SOOOO thats a pointless comparison.

Also, only an idiot would attempt to use a crit based ability without a wide crit range weapon. a falcion, kukri, and a few other weapons attached to the right character and equipment can statistically deliver a crit atleast once a round against the average opponent.

So overall your saying you where far less effective then a pure sorcerer? a 4th level sorc could of done the same kind of crossbow damage as you, bar the weak song. Which considering you hit once without it, and twice with it suggests its not a deciding factor in hitting.

The laughter bit is from the sorc's racial i assume. so really nothing to look at there.

So basically, you did stuff the sorc had the same chance and ability to do, but the sorc could also thrown out a 2nd level spell 4-5 times a day. Which means that wizard who was giving you issues could of been chewed down with a casting or 2 of scorching ray, or been hit with scare, or hideous laughter, or xyz. And that group harrassing the halfling? a 4th level sorc could have burned them up before they closed with burning hands, or picked off with magic missile and shocking grasp.

The issue is your weaker then either pure 4th level of both classes, and in no way stronger. 2 casters dont mix well, as even Mystic theurges end up slightly weaker on average.

gish vs. fighter is a non comparison in a 1v1 situation, because fighters cant fly. Simple as that. A flying gish wins because of his spell access. This is the same as a wizard vs. fighter

a gish vs. a wizard is a very interesting fight completely dependant on spells used. It would most likely come down to init. Gish wins by grappling a most likely weaker wizard and preventing him from casting most spells. Wizard simply hits with a strong save or die against the Gish's weak save.

So i would say the gish has about a 95% win chance against a fighter 1v1 and about a 45% chance against a wizard depending on spells/strats.

pain4gains wrote:

your comparing them before eldritch knights get their defining ability, Spell Critical. Which means in the heat of battle, a good eldritch knight can do a full round of attacks, AND cast an offensive spell. Hmm, the cleric attacking 3 times(4 buffed) in a round, vs the EK attacking 3 times and casting chain lightning?

Both have their advantages, the EK's being the swift spells as part of a full attack sequence.

Umm if you arcane strike or use arcane armor...then no, you do not get to use spell critical...at all. Same if you cast a quicken spell. Or any swift/immediate action spells. Spell critical just does not work unless you houserule it to work as a free action.

SO you would rather add +1-5 to a weapon, a bonus that doesnt stack with a magic weapon...which i mean really if your a combat focused character and any level above 3 you will have...for casting a spell as a swift action for free? Sure, quicken is nice. But it also increases the spell level by 4. You can't quicken a chain lightning, where as you can cast it as a spell critical.

And again, arcane failure? ha.

10 base
13 dex
8 armor bracers
4 shield spell
5 deflection item
1 haste
5 natural armor item
___
46, higher then most enemies can hit consitantly. add in displacement, mirror image, and the ability to stay out of reach(can your bard or cleric fly?) and i really dont see how you need to worry about arcane failure.

The main focus of this thread is the EK capstone, spell critical. The ability to cast a swift spell, in any round you crit on an attack, is very very strong. Now, alot of people seem to think of EK and "Gish" style characters need to be melee. Let's look at the idea, of ranged combat.

Our first option is of course Arcane Archer. But they need to use bows. Bows that have a 19-20 crit range with improved crit. The EK works best with a wide crit range. Our options being crossbows(any), a thrown dagger, or the crystal chakram.

Crossbows, are out because of reload times.

That leaves our other two items. Daggers, which crit at 17-20/x2 with improved critical. And the crystal chakram(CC), which crits at 15-20/x2 with improved critical.

One breaks, the other doesnt. So we'll say we carry both types, daggers for basic enemies, and CC for the stuff that really needs to die now.

Heres the mathy bit to show possible to-hit numbers. Yes it's going to be min-maxed heavily.

Race: Elf
Stats: 20 point buy

Str: 20 (14 base +6 item)
Dex: 36 (19 base + 5 level + 6 item + 2 transmutation + 4 insight)
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 7
Cha: 7

The average CR 20 enemy has about a 39 AC, so thats what we are shooting at as an average enemy to kill.

Important feats: rapid shot, critical focus, improved critical, weapon focus, greater weapon focus

So our attack bonuses are 13 from dex, 4 from greater heroism, 1 from haste, 5 weapon, 2 g.weapon focus

At 20, the basic 2/8/10 fighter/wizard/EK has a Bab 16, so he has a full attack of 16/11/6/1, and with rapid shot 14/14/9/4/-1.

That all gives us 39(95%)<95%>/39(95%)<95%>/34(80%)<95%>/29(50%)<75%> /24(25%)<50%>, with (%)chance to hit and <%> to confirm a critical, which all have the same 30% chance to threat. So about a 69% hit chance, 30% of all attacks will threaten to crit, and of those that threaten to crit, 82% to confirm.

So when fighting a Pit Fiend, over 100 attacks(20 rounds) you will hit him 69 times, threaten to crit him with 30 of those attacks, and confirm 24-25 times. SO that just covers that your on average critting once per round.

Meaning you can unload a full round of combat, and still hit off an offensive spell each round.

SO, keep this concept in mind when you consider the power of the EK. Because there is few things better then raining down +5 bane shattering crystalware with a side of delayed blast fireball.

your comparing them before eldritch knights get their defining ability, Spell Critical. Which means in the heat of battle, a good eldritch knight can do a full round of attacks, AND cast an offensive spell. Hmm, the cleric attacking 3 times(4 buffed) in a round, vs the EK attacking 3 times and casting chain lightning?

Both have their advantages, the EK's being the swift spells as part of a full attack sequence.

Assasin and Druid really don't synergise.

An effective druid does not need any help from assasin levels and vice versa.

What would be far far more effective would be a PAIR of bad guys, an evil Druid and her assasin cohort, who may be getting some magic from his boss.

I don't know, what i've been looking at is a 6 druid/ 3 assassin, and as it stands it would be a very very dangerous BBEG.

Stalking PCs (or npcs) as different animals, using meld into stone, tree shape, and speak with animals/plants to keep tabs on them you could easily keep yourself hidden, while always having the opportunity to study and strike an target, and quickly escape via flight, or spells.

SA works well with the druids melee abilities, either in an animal form or using a melee weapon. Also remember, you have your personal flanker in your animal companion.

looking at 20, sure it wont be as outright strong as a pure druid, but most games dont go to that point and sometimes low level flavor and flare beats out end game strength.

wait your playing a druid and feel WEAK? You could be the rock star of the party just using an animal companion along with a single summoned heavy hitter to help in melee while you plunk away from afar with a bow. Or you could use spells to buff yourself+ pet, switch into an animal form and mess it up in melee. Or you could just heal, buff, and call down lightning on your enemy.

I mean, maybe they arent the extreme CoDzillazs of 3.5, but they still have amazing abilities in all forms of combat when made and used properly

the spells just seemed silly for the assassin i think. I think the way to look at it is what do you gain from splashing it, or full out taking it, compared to levels of rogue.

I'll give you an example. Level five character looking to picks up 3 levels of rogue, or assassin. What does he gain in each situation.

3 rogue: 2d6 SA, evasion, trapfinding, trap sense 1, and a rogue talent.

3 assassin: 2d6 SA, death attack, poison use, uncanny dodge, +1 vs poison

so both have their pros and cons. For the someone who already has evasion(such as a monk or higher level ranger) it isn't a gain, vs someone who doesnt. The death attack is a great ability for someone who can't stand quite as long a drawn out melee fight, as it gives a patient character the chance to remove a combatant from the fight on round one.

now look at someone picking up 10 levels of rogue, vs 10 assassin

10 rogue: 5d6 SA, 5 talents, 1 advanced talent, improved uncanny dodge, trapfinding and trap sense +3

10 assassin: 5d6 SA, +5 vs. poison, improved uncanny dodge, poison use, death attack, hidden weapon, true death, quiet death, hide in plain site, swift death, angel of death

The rogue is giving you more utility in trap handling, and having the talents.

The assassin now outpaces in killing and stealth ability. Hide in plain sight and quiet death means he can slowly pick off a group without actual being attacked with luck. And add in swift death in and he can insta kill a foe mid combat once per day, any time he would get SA.

tarrasque, + some templates. Maybe abberant. think super illithid

Lawful Evil. Think plotting, scheming, planning, and then acting out in an act of violence, terrorism, or subversion.

The mob is a good example of lawful evil. They have a heirachy, a general goal, and the will to use force. Another example is terrorism organizations, such as the KKK or al quaeda. They have a goal(destroy the followers/citizens of a different country/religion/race) through acts of terrorism, with the intent of scarying people into submission. A lawful Evil character either works in, controls, or acts similiarly an organization such as these.

Where as a choatic evil character doesnt have any long term goals to his acts of evil in the most, and often just works for small personal gains, interests, and for the ability to see things around them fall to ash.

Playing a LE character is all about not directly harming your party, but trying to warp them to your personal goals, having some sort of long term goal, and being ruthless in moving towards it. Having set rules, terms, and agreements is also a good way to go.

Thinking of meshing a druid together with assassin to either create an interesting BBEG or a very tricky PC.

Now, my question is what possible suggestions can you make for me, to optimize this character? Aiming to optimize this character for both high end play, but also power while leveling. Present any builds as a level 9 character.

Things that are definate.

Alignment: Neutral Evil. Only possible choice.

Race: Halfling. Small size feels right with the character concept here for me.

Natural Bond : Animal companion. Something stealthy and combat ready that can help in flanking situations. Such as a black panther(leopard)

Keep any individual magic items used reasonable, under 30% of a level 9s total wealth.

No extreme multiclassing, as i would like to keep it as close to simply druid/assassin as possible.

Past that i believe everything else is up to you. Now flex that mental might!