Hi,
some times ago I played a cleric of Heironeous (yes, we still using the Greyhawk Pantheon^^) and I stumbeled about the "Animate Dead" spell, this spell was marked as [EVIL].
In some way I understand why, but isn't it possible to use it as good spell? Or creating a good/neutral version of this spell?
I thinking of something like the cleric asked his god to sent back the fallen, which were slayn in battle, to fight by his side against a evil.
Not raising them against their will, but asking for their help.
As I thought about it, I have to think at the nordish mythology, where the good man wait in valhalla until the last battle. Then go back to earth to fight side on side with the goods.
Why not something like this for a good/neutral cleric?
Sure the spell has to be altered, something like:
School [no idea, only non-evil clerics] ; Level cleric 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (holy dust worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead)
Range touch
Targets one or more corpses touched
Duration one battle
Saving Throw none
Spell Resistance no
What do you think?
Maybe a bonus to turn resistance, because they aren't exactly undeads.
Animate dead is an evil spell probably because it invariably creates evil creatures.
I would also posit it is left as an evil spell to restrain players from abusing it to make cannon fodder. It would be too easy to game the system, just like the good intentions of the Book of Exalted Deeds feats were twisted from their original intent.
That being said, if you feel it advances the story in your game to make a spell that calls fallen heroes to fight again, and it works for your group then go for it. But if you are looking for an official rule change, I don't think it's gonna happen anytime soon, just like I doubt we'll see Vow of Poverty transported into Pathfinder.
I think the kind of spell you are looking for serves better as a summoning, just tweak a summoning spell to summon some fallen warriors from valhalla with appropriate stats for that level.
They might be a little tougher than a typical summon if you create a spell specifically for this purpose. Undead is typically associated with evil curses and the like.
We once had a spell in one of our campaign, that one could use as a "good"-aligned version of animate dead. I don't exactly remember which level it was, I think it was a 4th level cleric spell. I also do not recall the exact costs of the spell or any additional limitations.
You used it on a corpse and summon the spirit of a fallen hero/champion of your diety (cleric only spell) to animate the corpse. Thus they were subject to dismissal and similar spells and if you released one of them the spirit vanished in contrast to undead that just become free-willed.
The template roughly worked in the following way (Pathfinderized):
Alignment: as diety
Type: outsider (alingment subtypes as diety), keeps subtypes except for alignment subtypes and those indicating kind.
Armor Class: as zombie
Hit Dice: remove class levels, change racial HD to outsider HD
Saves: Fort, Ref good, Will bad
Defensive Abilities: loose defensive abilities
Speed: as creature
Attacks: as creature
Special Attacks: loose all special attacks
Abilities: Int -, Dex -2, Wis 10, Cha 10
BAB: full
Skills: none
Feats: none
Special Qualities: retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. Gain Weakness against negative energy (taking +50% damage).
For the matter of controlling they followed all the rules of the animate dead spell and counted against the same limit of creatures you could control (so no additional minions for evil clerics).
Since they could be more powerful than fast zombies, there probably were some additional limitations for the spell (like a higher cost), but I don't remember those.
I would also posit it is left as an evil spell to restrain players from abusing it to make cannon fodder. It would be too easy to game the system, just like the good intentions of the Book of Exalted Deeds feats were twisted from their original intent.You know that Animate Dead has a fairly significant costly magical component, right? It has a built-in limit on "abusing" it to do the one thing the spell does.
Sure. And the evil descriptor is another tool to limit its use.
Animate dead is an evil spell probably because it invariably creates evil creatures.
Except that zombies and skeletons have a non-existent intelligence, which means that they're incapable of making moral decisions any more so than an animal. They're automatons that do their master's bidding. As writ, if you don't tell them what to do, they just stand there looking creepy.
Not that it's uncommon for folks to decide that they should be inherently evil creatures. Just look at Classic Horrors Revisited.
Sure. And the evil descriptor is another tool to limit its use.I would also posit it is left as an evil spell to restrain players from abusing it to make cannon fodder. It would be too easy to game the system, just like the good intentions of the Book of Exalted Deeds feats were twisted from their original intent.You know that Animate Dead has a fairly significant costly magical component, right? It has a built-in limit on "abusing" it to do the one thing the spell does.
Eh, decent 'neutral' version I scribed up, called Call to the Heavens, was the same level and worked roughly the same but more along the lines of turning the body into a skeletal structure with flesh made of ectoplasm. Functioned as a Zombie without the Staggered ability and no rot, and first the Wizard/Sorcerer had to talk to the Soul that originally inhabited the body, much like Planar Ally and make sure A) the Soul was willing for it's remains to be used by you B) pay the soul, either in XP, Gold or doing something for it be it rebuilding an orphanage or telling a loved one something deeply personal so he or she could grieve and move on and C) ensure that the God or other entity that ruled the Plane where the Soul was residing was okay with it. Success meant the spell worked and the 'Risen' Zombie bore the mark of the Deity in question as a small glowing rune on their foreheads.
Spell lasted for 1 month per caster level if the PC offered 20 gold or 50 XP per HD of the Deceased, 1 year per caster level if the PC offered 100 gold 250XP per HD of the Deceased and permanent if the PC offered 200 gold or 500XP per HD of the Deceased. Costs were halved if the PC allowed the Soul to inhabit the body, which cut down the duration to 1 day per caster level, but effectively the body 'became' the Soul as it was in life, although still rules-wise an Undead, and the Soul could then function as it had in life to do whatever it was the Party needed, be it an extra sword-arm or somebody to testify against the murderer in a court of law. After the duration was up, however, or the body was destroyed, that was it, the Soul was forever beyond the reach of the spell, but not other forms of ressurection, and the Body couldn't be animated by anything short of deific power.
These 'Risen' Zombies couldn't be turned or destroyed but they could be Rebuked or Cowed, did not detect as Evil but did detect as Undead, lacked the Staggered Subtype and had 2 Intelligence, but were rules-wise the same as a Zombie. While the costs were steep, it allowed the raising of the Dead in a fashion that treated the Dead with a level of respect and also allowed the Undead thus raised to have their last wishes done. Helped cut down the number of Ghosts in the campaign world, I can tell you, if the PCs could offer to give the Ghost a corporeal body for a few days to finish whatever business that kept the Ghost tied to the Material Plane.
Animate dead is an evil spell probably because it invariably creates evil creatures.Except that zombies and skeletons have a non-existent intelligence, which means that they're incapable of making moral decisions any more so than an animal. They're automatons that do their master's bidding. As writ, if you don't tell them what to do, they just stand there looking creepy.
Not that it's uncommon for folks to decide that they should be inherently evil creatures. Just look at Classic Horrors Revisited.
I sort of recall that that was changed for zombies at least so while they are still unthinking automatons, and can do little more than follow orders what little more they can do is wonder off when you are not looking and randomly kill stuff. If I am remembering correctly that sort of makes them rather less useful as minions since they need to be supervised all the time and that rules out having them protect stuff, guard areas, wait around in a room until time for an attack, or what have you.
Skeletons on the other hand I can not recall if they need supervision.
Alignment: Always Neutral Evil. Fluff says they are evil 'cos the force animating them is, or words to that effect. Zombie's fluff says that unless controlled they go about smashing/killing stuff.
I'd call it a fluke of the 3e rules that got retained in 3.5 and beyond. There's no real reason for the basic animate dead spell to be evil since it doesn't create evil creatures; it's on the same moral level of animate object. Zero reason for it to be considered evil (socially frowned upon and castigated being something entirely different from it being evil on an objective moral level). And negative energy that animates them is not evil (it's just as evil or good as positive energy is).
I'd call it a fluke of the 3e rules that got retained in 3.5 and beyond. There's no real reason for the basic animate dead spell to be evil since it doesn't create evil creatures; it's on the same moral level of animate object. Zero reason for it to be considered evil (socially frowned upon and castigated being something entirely different from it being evil on an objective moral level).
Except by the rules the spell does create evil creatures. Skeletons and Zombies alignment always NE. Infact it stats in the creature description that the animus which gives mobility is an evil energy.
This has been kicked around a lot.
Try this thread on animate dead and evil.
And try this thread on white necromancy (one of my personal favorites).
I really don't see anything wrong with allowing the Necromancer to create the old 'Dragon Bone Warriors' out of the Lodoss Wars universe. Skeleton Warriors that rise up after you toss a Dragon's tooth onto the ground and speak the correct word.
Another method of dealing with Necromancers who want their Undead minions while not being a 'rule over a world of death and decay' Evil could be ones who, as I mentioned before, bargain with the Soul of the corpse before they animate it, making it more like a contract than an usurption of the material body.
Another method I am quite fond of is the Deathless Subtype. A Necromancer of Neutral or Good Alignment casting Raise Dead (and taking 10 minutes to do so) raises Undead with the Deathless rather than the Undead type. Mechanically similar Animate Undead but you cannot order the Undead created thus to perform an Evil act and the Deathless Skeletons/Zombies you ressurect are marked with a visible sigil of the nominal God of Death or, if the God of Death in that campaign is evil, the Gods whom allowed the material remains of their followers to be raised up into servitude. Necromacners of Neutral or Evil alignment can cast Animate Dead as per normal, and must deal with all the social stigma that entails.
Thus a Neutral or Good Necromancer who finds a graveyard can cast Animate Dead, taking the time to open a small, temporary link to the heavens and can ask the deceased souls if they mind being raised to help the Necromancer destroy a nest of Demon cultists and after that, going on to fight more Evil. Most would say no, naturally enough, but a few would agree, telling the Necromancer they will agree, assuming afterwards the Necromancer brings their remains back to their graves to be returned to their rest. The Necromancer agrees to the pact, the spirits allow a small amount of their energy to be captured and used to animate their corpses, the Necromancer has gained a few potent undead. Under this variant, I would allow the Necromancer to add a certain number of HD to the Undead to compensate for not being able to basically walk in, yoink corpses and walk out again with a ready-made army at his heels.
Most people with religion or a Divine Casting Class would know that an Undead with a brilliantly glowing rune of Sarenrae on their foreheads understand the Necromancer leading them isn't robbing tombs, just borrowing the bodies for a mission of some kind. They won't like him, animals still shy away from the Undead, but the Necromancer is acting under the nominal blessings of the Gods, and if he tries to work around his pact or cheat, the Undead simply walk away back to their graves or, failing that, turn to dust and the Necromancer will probably find his next casting of Animate Undead fails spectacularly, and wakes up in a few hours to find a rune on his forehead, branding him an oath-breaker and a defiler of the Undead!
I would also posit it is left as an evil spell to restrain players from abusing it to make cannon fodder. It would be too easy to game the system, just like the good intentions of the Book of Exalted Deeds feats were twisted from their original intent.You know that Animate Dead has a fairly significant costly magical component, right? It has a built-in limit on "abusing" it to do the one thing the spell does.
I think the expensive material component is to balance the Permanent nature of the spell. Heck, Dispel Magic doesn't de-animate dead either.
I think the expensive material component is to balance the Permanent nature of the spell. Heck, Dispel Magic doesn't de-animate dead either.I would also posit it is left as an evil spell to restrain players from abusing it to make cannon fodder. It would be too easy to game the system, just like the good intentions of the Book of Exalted Deeds feats were twisted from their original intent.You know that Animate Dead has a fairly significant costly magical component, right? It has a built-in limit on "abusing" it to do the one thing the spell does.
Agreed. Very much agreed. Undead have formed my Necromancer's expendable work-force, doing the grunt work of digging trenches, expanding underground caverns, dragging loot out of the dungeon and of course combat. Animate Dead should NEVER be without the expensive material components, and that they dropped the casting down to one round scares the bejzeus out of me. Necromancer standing over a pile of a hundred dead commoners with a motherload of the right spell component can litterally wear the PCs down to nothing with three castings of Plague Zombies. I don't care how high your Fortitude save is, enough of those bastards hitting you and you WILL fail at least one save, not counting all the damage you would be taking from the slams!
As mentioned by Set in this thread White Necromancy, Need Help, Set's Post a Necromancer could conceivably take a hit to Con when casting the spell that doesn't go away until the Undead are destroyed or returned to their rest. Depending upon how we rule it, it could mean that a Necromancer using his full 4x caster level takes a full -4 penalty to his Constitution Score, say, dropping his Constitution from 12 down to 8 for so long as those Undead bound to him exist. He's using his own Life-Force, shifting a fragment to each Skeleton and Zombie to animate them and bind them to his will, which falls well within the concept of 'Necromancy as the school of manipulation of the powers of death, unlife and Life Force.'
That said, I still like my version of Animate Dead having different casting time/abilities depending upon the Alignment of the Caster, but Set's version is good because even though it is the manipulation of the dead bodies, the actual animating force comes from the Necromancer, rather than the residual scraps of spiritual energies (or soul-fragments) left within the body thus animated.
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or they may power it with pure Arcane energies (Animated Object)
The problem with an arcane necromancer trying this, is that he needs to be able to cast 6th level bard/cleric spells, since Animate Objects only appears on those lists at that level of power.
Of course, a Bard pretending to be a Necromancer could get plenty of use out of this spell...
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As far as the game world, I would suppose that it is simply much easier to create sucessful undead using negative energy, which has the side effect of making the creations inherrently evil.
To get around that, an enterprising Wiz or Clr may try to create undead powered by another force (like the Deathless in Eberron powered by positive energy), or they may power it with pure Arcane energies (Animated Object), or they may try to bind an elemental to it to magically animate the body (Golem).
Heya, MM. Well-written and thoughtful.
But I don't agree with your position. Negative energy isn't any more wicked than any other energy source. Critters powered by positive energy already have a name: living.
Somewhere between 3rd Edition and 3.5, somebody decided that skeletons were evil-aligned, and that animating dead animal corpses was an evil act. (Shrug.) Makes them scarier, I guess. They work fine as neutral creations, as well.
I've argued that undead is evil in Golarion because it is the province of Urgathoa, and Urgathoa is capital-E Evil. (The same way poison use, arguably no worse than invoking fireballs or arrows to kill someone, is evil because it is under Norgerber's aegis, and Norgerber is Evil.) Every use of animate dead, and every transmission of undeath, strengthens Urgathoa, just as everyone who smiles when they see the dawn grants Desna a tiny drop of power.
The same argument would apply in Greyhawk.
Hi,
some times ago I played a cleric of Heironeous (yes, we still using the Greyhawk Pantheon^^) and I stumbeled about the "Animate Dead" spell, this spell was marked as [EVIL].
In some way I understand why, but isn't it possible to use it as good spell? Or creating a good/neutral version of this spell?
Where were you when I started my campaign to get necrophilia legalized?!
<stomps off angrily>
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This has been kicked around a lot.
Try this thread on animate dead and evil.
And try this thread on white necromancy (one of my personal favorites).
This discussion is just like a good undead. It keeps coming back. :)
If your mother were dead...
And someone came around and raised her...
How would you feel about it?
I'd call it a fluke of the 3e rules that got retained in 3.5 and beyond. There's no real reason for the basic animate dead spell to be evil since it doesn't create evil creatures; it's on the same moral level of animate object...
Except animate object doesn't desecrate the dead.
I would consider that to be an evil action for sure.
Animating corpses is generally frowned upon in most societies who believe the dead are sacred or at least disinterring them is sacrilegious.
Now, if you happened to walk into a society where the dead are put on display to be kept with the living or something so are animated to continue a faux life, I suppose it would be Neutral...
That's why illusion and summoning spells aren't necessarily evil.
An invisible servant is not evil. The zombie of your dead best friend/worst enemy/grandma serving your every need is kind of evil.
Creating a simulacrum that looks like yourself to serve you, now that is Freudian somewhere.
It wasn't in 3.0, neither were skeletons and zombies. They were in 3.5. It's like this, take the interpretation you like and run with it, because it's not like the six million people who have worked on D&D ever had a consensus, even within the same edition.
At this point in time I feel I must point towards the campaign world of Eberron. Therein lies a solution in the creation of not "Undead" but instead positive energy "Deathless". Information on the Deathless creature type can be found on page 275 of the Eberron Campaign Setting (ECS).
To create these creatures you'll want the "Create Deathless" spell on page 109 of the ECS.
I sort of recall that that was changed for zombies at least so while they are still unthinking automatons, and can do little more than follow orders what little more they can do is wonder off when you are not looking and randomly kill stuff. If I am remembering correctly that sort of makes them rather less useful as minions since they need to be supervised all the time and that rules out having them protect stuff, guard areas, wait around in a room until time for an attack, or what have you.
Skeletons on the other hand I can not recall if they need supervision.
Depends on how literally you want to take "can do little more than follow orders" from the bestiary. Having that said even if taken literally (as in to mean there are a few things they can do beyond just following orders) there's nothing to indicate anything that they do on their own is evil, wandering off and killing things is something we read into zombies because that's that way they usually are in other fiction, not because it's supported by the RAW.
Sure. And the evil descriptor is another tool to limit its use.
How? If you're evil you don't care about the descriptor, and if you're good... you don't care about the descriptor because you're not barred from casting it and there are no rules about how casting [evil] spells or even doing [evil] acts interact with your alignment. What difference does it being [evil] make.
Hrm..good question.
In my campaign setting, 'mindless' undead are neutral, and intelligent undead, upon being made, move one step closer to both chaos and evil. I'm still working on this as well as on spells with the good, evil, lawful and chaotic descriptor, as they will be more powerful in my setting. I hope to have more information on this soon.
Depends on how literally you want to take "can do little more than follow orders" from the bestiary. Having that said even if taken literally (as in to mean there are a few things they can do beyond just following orders) there's nothing to indicate anything that they do on their own is evil, wandering off and killing things is something we read into zombies because that's that way they usually are in other fiction, not because it's supported by the RAW.
Errr...it is supported by RAW.
d20PFSRD: Zombies are unthinking automatons, and can do little more than follow orders. When left unattended, zombies tend to mill about in search of living creatures to slaughter and devour. Zombies attack until destroyed, having no regard for their own safety.
Creative Director
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As mentioned above... zombies and skeletons are evil. They're mindless, but the necromantic energies that create them compel them to destroy the living if they're not being used for other purposes. They have evil alignments as a result. And the concept of creating undead itself is viewed as evil by all civilized societies—and is supported by the fact that undead are not found on the good aligned outer planes, and are not used in good temples.
The ONLY kind of undead in the Pathfinder RPG that can be not evil at this point is the ghost—but they're somewhat unique in the way they form and what they do.
All other undead are evil. Including zombies and skeletons.
And as a result, all spells that create undead have the Evil descriptor.
Animating the dead is NOT the same as animating an object. You can use animate objects to animate a dead body; it has the stats for an animated object, though, NOT an undead skeleton or zombie, because the force that animates things with animate objects is unaligned magical energy; the force that animates undead is negative energy and evil spirit power. That distinction is something that is really interesting and unique, and someone who uses lots of animate object spells to create animated objects out of dead bodies would be a VERY interesting thing to explore in a book BECAUSE it's a way to make dead bodies do stuff without using evil magic.
I would think any form of undead creation SHOULD be evil. You are taking a short cut at creating animated magical being by, in some mythos, binding a persons soul to their dead, decaying, or skeletal body. This soul talk is often not touched as it starts bringing in religion to a game, and that is not a very fun and complicated topic.
Tack on the fact that you are abusing the dead body of a living being that probably has loved ones and friends. What would you think if you saw or found out your father's corps was animated and desecrated?
I used to be of the opinion that it was possibly a neutral act as before, but personally creating any undead via a spell that the victim gets no saving throw is an evil idea, even if they are dead.
No if they linger on with out evil means, such as a spirit of a paladin seeing his charge through even after death, that might be a good undead, or if the person you animate tells you to do so after they die for a good act, that might be neutral. But in general I am of the opinion that creating undead should be evil, with a few situational exceptions.
Why is animating dead evil? Three words: Magical Corpse Marionette.
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Just going to quote the two schools of thought on this one.
The Morality of Necromancy: Black and Gray
The rules of D&D attempt to be all things to all people, and unfortunately that just isn’t possible if you’re trying to make a system of objective morality. By trying to cater to two very different play styles as regards to the moral quandaries of the use of negative energy, the game ends up catering to neither – and this has been the cause of a great many arguments for which there actually are no possible resolutions. Ultimately therefore, it falls to every DM to determine whether in their game the powers of Necromancy are inherently evil, or merely extremely dangerous. That’s a choice which must be made, and has far reaching implications throughout the game. That’s an awful lot of work, and most DMs honestly just don’t care enough to be bothered with it, and I understand. Fortunately, we have collated those changes for you right here:Moral Option 1: The Crawling Darkness
Many DMs will choose to have Negative Energy in general, and undead in particular, be inherently Evil. So much so that we can capitalize it: Evil. And say it again for emphasis: Evil. That means that when you cast a negative energy wave you are physically unleashing Evil onto the world. When you animate a corpse, you are creating a being whose singular purpose is to make moral choices which are objectionable on every level.
That’s a big commitment. It means that anyone using Inflict Wounds is an awful person, at least while they are doing it. The Plane of Negative Energy is in this model the source of all Evil, more so than the Abyss or Hell. It’s Evil without an opinion, immorality in its purest most undiluted form.
Moral Option 2: Playing with Fire
Many DMs will choose to have Negative Energy be a base physical property of the magical universe that the D&D characters live in – like extremes of Cold or Fire it is inimical to life, and it is ultimately no more mysterious than that. An animate skeleton is more disgusting and frightening to the average man than is a stone golem, but it’s actually a less despicable act in the grand scheme of things because a golem requires the enslavement of an elemental spirit and a skeleton has no spirit at all.
The Plane of Negative Energy in this model is precisely the same as all the other elemental planes: a dangerous environment that an unprotected human has no business going to.
What Pathfinder has is a hybridization of the two extremes. The main point to remember is that using necromancy to animate something makes it an evil creature. Using transmutation to animate something does not.
So while negative energy is the electricity in an undead creatures system, what makes it Evil is the necromantic programming put into it.
The problem here is the idea that a mindless automaton can have an alignment. It shouldn't. It is mindless, and thus completely incapable of moral judgment. As far as being animated to do violent deeds, well so what? Animated objects, golems, heck, even fireballs, are used to violent ends and that doesn't make them evil. Violence is not inherently evil. A zombie may hunger and hunt, but then, so do animals, and animals, even the most violent ones, are neutral.
I'd consider the creation of a golem to be far more evil than the creation of a zombie or skeleton because golems are created by the enslavement of a (probably innocent) elemental being. No souls are enslaved when a zombie or skeleton is made, they're simply animated by negative energy. The greater versions of undead that do involve the enslavement or corruption of souls, those spells certainly do deserve the [evil] tag, but mindless corpse automatons do not.
As for the idea of "desecrating" someone's body, this is really not an evil act. It's merely a cultural taboo. Different cultures have very different attitudes toward corpses. Even on planet Earth, some cultures have burial practices that would horrify or disguist other cultures. Some cultures bury their dead, some cremate them, some leave them out to be consumed by scavangers, some use their dead for scientific research and dissection, some cultures even consume their dead for food. None of these beliefs and practices are "evil" no matter how much they may offend the sensibilities of others.
From a plainly rational point of view, a corpse is just an empty shell that will inevitably rot away and be worm food no matter how much anyone may be emotionally attached to it. The Necromancer simply puts it to use as a tool. This is bound to have social consequences in many places, but it's a far stretch to say that it's evil simply because it's creepy.
Pathfinder states that uncontrolled mindless undead will seek out and destroy innocent life on their own. That is what makes them Evil.
A hungry lion will seek out and destroy innocent life on its own. Is it evil?
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Pathfinder states that uncontrolled mindless undead will seek out and destroy innocent life on their own. That is what makes them Evil.A hungry lion will seek out and destroy innocent life on its own. Is it evil?
No, it's following its natural biological imperative. If it doesn't eat - it dies.
Now I think there could be some arguments made for animals approaching some form of dim or limited sentience and killing things for sheer joy (wolverine - not the x-man, the animal), I think in some earlier AD&D books that may have even listed alignments as Neutral(Evil) implying that the vicious creature enjoyed the bloodshed.But yeah, creating undead creates the "Frankenstein" dilemma. Anything your creation does the creator is responsible for.
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Creative Director
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The problem here is the idea that a mindless automaton can have an alignment. It shouldn't. It is mindless, and thus completely incapable of moral judgment. As far as being animated to do violent deeds, well so what? Animated objects, golems, heck, even fireballs, are used to violent ends and that doesn't make them evil. Violence is not inherently evil. A zombie may hunger and hunt, but then, so do animals, and animals, even the most violent ones, are neutral.
I actually agree. I fought to give skeletons and zombies an Intelligence of 3 OR to make them true neutral, but for many reasons (most of which rhyme with "compatibility with 3.5") that wasn't really an option. So I added the bit of flavor text to both that talks about how while they're mindless, their necromantic energy causes them to be evil. It's obviously not a perfect solution (if it were, this thread wouldn't exist), but I do think that it justifies their alignment and mindless state enough to make it make a little bit of sense while maintaining compatibility with 3.5.
In 45 years (hopefully not that soon) when we do Pathfinder 2nd Edition, this is something I'd like to revisit and perhaps change.
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Creative Director
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But yeah, creating undead creates the "Frankenstein" dilemma. Anything your creation does the creator is responsible for.
It's worth noting that the game's actual "Frankenstein monster," the flesh golem, is not a necromantic creation but a construct and, thus, is not evil. You could just as easily call a construct zombie a "lesser flesh golem" and use the stats for a zombie but treat it as a neutral mindless construct.
We actually DO that, sort of, with the yellow musk zombie, which is also mindless and neutral. Note, of course, that it's also not undead; it's a plant.
A hungry lion will stop once its needs have been satiated. A mindless undead will not stop until it is destroyed. It will hunt out every last speck of life and then keep looking for more to destroy. It is programmed for Evil.
It's still following a base instinct as opposed to making a conscious choice. It's dangerous and needs to be kept on a tight leash, but it can still be used for good ends and kept from doing evil if supervised. A Necromancer who just lets zombies run around and eat random people would be evil, for the same reason that someone who runs around nuking random peasent cottages with fireballs is evil. But a Necromancer who animates zombies, keeps them from harming innocents, and uses them to save and protect people, how is that evil?
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Creative Director
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A hungry lion will stop once its needs have been satiated. A mindless undead will not stop until it is destroyed. It will hunt out every last speck of life and then keep looking for more to destroy. It is programmed for Evil.It's still following a base instinct as opposed to making a conscious choice. It's dangerous and needs to be kept on a tight leash, but it can still be used for good ends and kept from doing evil if supervised. A Necromancer who just lets zombies run around and eat random people would be evil, for the same reason that someone who runs around nuking random peasent cottages with fireballs is evil. But a Necromancer who animates zombies, keeps them from harming innocents, and uses them to save and protect people, how is that evil?
Necromantic-powered zombies do not have a real-world corollary, and thus comparing them to animal instinctual behavior is inherently flawed. It's like comparing how fireballs work to how backdrafts work. To someone watching from outside with no knowledge of magic or physics, the end result (a big ball of fire) might look identical, but the why and how of what they're doing are fundamentally different.
A hungry lion will stop once its needs have been satiated. A mindless undead will not stop until it is destroyed. It will hunt out every last speck of life and then keep looking for more to destroy. It is programmed for Evil.
According to the Pathfinder version of undead. I guess it's not particularly useful to have this conversation with people so entrenched in pathfinder specific fluff. I still think that mindless creatures don't have the concept of morality needed to have an alignment at all.
A lion might stop once its appetite is sated, this is true. A sphere of annihilation does not and it is not considered evil. I maintain that a skeleton or a zombie has no more consciousness than an insect, probably less so in fact.
It's worth noting that the game's actual "Frankenstein monster," the flesh golem, is not a necromantic creation but a construct and, thus, is not evil. You could just as easily call a construct zombie a "lesser flesh golem" and use the stats for a zombie but treat it as a neutral mindless construct.We actually DO that, sort of, with the yellow musk zombie, which is also mindless and neutral. Note, of course, that it's also not undead; it's a plant.
Considering that both zombies and flesh golems are mindless automatons animated by magic, what is the distinction between the two that makes one evil and the other not?
Necromantic-powered zombies do not have a real-world corollary, and thus comparing them to animal instinctual behavior is inherently flawed. It's like comparing how fireballs work to how backdrafts work. To someone watching from outside with no knowledge of magic or physics, the end result (a big ball of fire) might look identical, but the why and how of what they're doing are fundamentally different.
They're not exactly the same as animals, but they are similar in many ways, and it's those similarities that I'm pointing out. Both have limited intelligence and follow instinctual behaviors. If anything, the animal, being more intelligent than the zombie and having some limited capacity for inteligent choice, should be more responsible for its actions, not less. The zombie is just a robot following a very basic program.